Next: “Jughead” (Episode 5×03)

At the closing thud, Jen proclaimed “Jughead” her favorite episode ever. While I’m nowhere near ready to bestow that crown, I’d certainly agree that it was a fantastic chapter in “LOST.” And, like many Desmond-centric outings, probably a pivotal one. So many threads connected, such satisfying epiphanies, I imagine “Jughead” reaffirmed the loyalty of sometimes skeptical fans. Revisiting the lines alone make my brain tingle. “I assume you’ve come back for your bomb?” “Put the gun down, Widmore.” “If you don’t believe me, come and visit me.” And “You are my life now… you and Charlie.”

It was Locke that sent Alpert to visit him at birth, and as a small boy? Awesome. Though if Alpert did indeed keep that compass to show young Locke, there are some space-time knots to untangle. Widmore as a young, somewhat daft Other? Fantastic. So does he fall for Ellie, and do they conceive Penny? Who is Mommy Widmore, anyway? And yes, it seems all but a given that Mrs. Hawking is Faraday’s mother (as tonight solved the “how could Ben be visiting her in London” questions). If so, it’s a building non-surprise that is probably the only thing that disappointed Jen tonight. They could surprise us, but I’m just hoping it’s not as drawn out as, “It was Michael on the freighter!”

That Daniel confessed his love for Charlotte was sweet, but it was also obvious things weren’t going to go well for them. I was more struck by how Desmond paused when the Oxford clerk asked him what year he visited. It was more than a simple case of forgetting, I think, which is admittedly understandable if you’ve been unstuck in time. I think he used to know, but realized at that moment that he forgot. Just as Charlotte couldn’t remember her mother’s maiden name. The harder Desmond insists he won’t go back to the island, the more likely that he’ll have to.

Theresa was an interesting development. Obviously, Faraday turned his purple lamp on her and dislodged her brain in time. But why is she still alive, and why is Widmore invested in her survival? And the fact that her name is Theresa takes us back to the recently referenced vision Locke had of a bloody Boone reciting her name, “Theresa falls down the stairs, Theresa falls up the stairs…”

The absence of the Oceanic Six in “Jughead” was conspicuous, and frankly, refreshing. As with last week’s pairing, it was clear tonight that the best stories are on the island. But now I fear a future episode will be spent entirely off island. I love Hurley, Ben, Jack, Sayid, and Kate, but I think the “LOST” creators were right when they said the fans would revolt if they spent all of Season 5 trying to return.

Notes & Notions:

  • Is “Jughead” what’s behind the Chernobyl-like concrete Sayid finds below the Swan? It’s a distinct possibility. But the Swan was tapping a massive magnetic force. Unless “Jughead” caused it to develop, it seems like a pretty unlikely spot to bury a hydrogen bomb.
  • The show isn’t even sheepish anymore about showing us redshirts that invariably meet an untimely end. Two more are dispatched within a minute or two of us asking, “Who are those guys, anyway?”
  • Ageless Alpert remains a mystery. “He’s always been here,” Juliet says. Yet, he seemed pretty baffled by Locke’s time travel explanation.
  • Locations: St. Andrew’s (Oxford), Honolulu Brewing Co. on Queen St. (Theresa’s home exterior), Manoa Valley Inn (Theresa’s home interior), Keehi Boat Harbor (seaside village).

What did you think? Join the conversation below and share your thoughts, as we’d love to include them — along with our more detailed analysis — in the next podcast. Please post a comment here, send us an e-mail at lost@hawaiiup.com, or leave a short voicemail on the LostLine at (808) 356-0127 by Friday, Jan. 30, 2009.

134 Responses to “Next: “Jughead” (Episode 5×03)”

  1. Dave says:

    Lots of good theories above. My feeling on Richard is that he proceeds linearly through time but just doesn’t visibly age. Perhaps Richard is the first resident of the island — is his superior (who I think we assume to be Jacob) not a person at all, but the island itself? — and the other Others who may have been brought to the island age, while he does not? We’ve seen the island have some restorative properties — Locke and Rose and Mikhail and perhaps Naomi and Jin/Sun all receive some healing benefit from it — and maybe some people simply do not age/deteriorate there.

    I think it was Nels above who asked about Locke being able to kill the guy in the past. Mrs Hawking tells us that the universe has a way of course correcting. Locke couldn’t go back in time and kill, for example, Ben or Widmore, but he can go back and kill the sock because the sock has no bearing on his present day. Also, if the sock cut off Juliet’s hand in the past that would of course upset the future. So I guess the fudging it explanation is that things course corrected.

    I like the idea that Locke somehow influences Alpert to seek him out in the future, similarly to how Alpert influences Locke to seek him out in the past. Sort of reminiscent of Donnie Darko and of the Desmond/Faraday situation. It inspired me to do a little searching and I eventually came to this Wikipedia article on “predestination paradox” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox), which is a central concept of the show (don’t confuse fate with coincidence). Really, whether something is coincidence or predestined, in a linear concept of time (e.g. what we have) is open for debate. But when time becomes nonlinear (e.g. the record skipping phenomenon) you can imagine that past (or future) events can affect the present. The Wiki stub clearly differentiates this from the “grandfather paradox” (you can’t go back in time and kill your own grandfather).

  2. Dave says:

    I also agree with the poster above that the military garb worn by the others is a costume. We’ve seen the others wearing costumes in the past. Widmore in particular has a nameplate of Jones (Jughead’s last name) on his uniform. I do not doubt that they were attacked at some point and do think it’s an intriguing possibility that at least some of the Otehrs (probably not Alpert) came off the Black Rock.

    A theory: Locke enlightens Alpert as to how they select a leader. Widmore expects to become the leader and as he is perhaps a big less earthy-crunchy than Alpert rebels against his ideas. Or perhaps he is appointmed the leader. Regardless, Widmore for some reason is forced to turn the frozen donkey wheel to move the island to save it, and now he can never get back. He starts a company, makes tons of money, and becomes a terrifying businessman who uses his unparalleled wealth to fund crazy science experiments and drop pregnancy tests and supplies on an island that he somehow can’t find. (Recall the Widmore brand pregnancy test, though perhaps that’s just, dare I say it, coincidence?)

    Meanwhile, Alpert needs a new right-hand man, so he selects a child brought to the island by the Dharma folks (known to the Others as the Other Others 😉 ) — Ben. Widmore becomes envious of Ben because he can’t return to the island because there can only be one right-hand man at a time. Hence the conflict.

    But now Locke, by winding up on the island, alters the past so Alpert seeks him out as a child. Alpert doesn’t think at the time that Locke is appropriate as his right hand man (presumably because he still has Widmore then, a few years after we see them on the island and likely before Ben is the young boy who first gets recruited. Eventually Locke becomes Ben 2.0 (e.g. Widmore 3.0) and we are where we are.

    Clearly there’s more to the story than that, but there seems to be an issue wherein once someone leaves the island they can’t get back without doing something special. Perhaps for Widmore to go back, he’d need Ben’s dead body, since Ben supplanted him… and that’s how Ben can get back with Locke’s dead body? I don’t know.

    (What a long and half baked theory I just wrote.)

  3. Dave says:

    Also, one other thought after reading Connie in AK’s post.
    Ji-Yeon (Jin an Sun’s son)
    Aaron (Claire/Kate’s son)
    Charlie (Des and Penny’s son)

    Will we see an “O” offsping and a “B” offspring to make JACOB?

    J could also be John (Locke) or Jack.
    C could be Christian (Shepherd).
    B could be Ben.

    If he wasn’t dead, Neil could have been frOgurt. 🙂

  4. cat says:

    I think the bomb was burried and the Swan built around the source of the radiation from the bomb. I agree with John Fisher that this is all connected to the numbers and the button pushing etc but just how, I’m not sure.

    I like the polar bear connection and yes, if they turned the donkey wheel, it is logical to assume that they would land up in Tunesia just like Ben.

  5. Dave says:

    Kevin — really interesting observation.
    I wonder, since we only have two planes so far, whether this kind of connection could be made to Desmond’s arrival by boat, or Henry Gale’s arrival by hot air balloon…

  6. Carol says:

    I found Juliet and Dan a bit annoying this episode. They clearly know a lot more than they are revealing. If I were Locke or Sawyer I would be demanding more information from Juliet about the others and Dan about time travel. What is Juliet’s true agenda? She could be doing a lot more to help them against the others.

    I also think that Walt comes back to the island and gets caught in the time loop. Remember in the season finale last year, an older Walt knows where to find Locke and tell him to get out of the pit because he had things he had to do. Locke specifically said Walt was much older when he saw him.When Walt appeared to Shannon the second season, he was wet and said things backwards, perhaps because he teleporting or something.

    But there were several things I loved about the episode, Desmond’s son Charlie, the reveal about Widmore, which I already suspected. The reveal that Locke actually told Richard to visit him at his birth. Dan revealing his love for Charlotte. Mrs. Hawkings appears to be Ellie and Dan’s mother. I love the thought mentioned earlier that Dan’s appearance might have set off her interest in time travel.

    It appears next week that Charlotte may still be alive. The losties also travel back in time to see Claire giving birth to Aaron. I am curious as to how Widmore arrived on the Island and when he arrived.

  7. Carol says:

    I also meant to say Walt may have been wet because he had just been captured off the boat of the others at the time he was contacting Shannon. I am trying to remember what he said to her, was it “push the button, not pushing the button is bad?”

  8. SM says:

    Wow, some really great comments!

    A few opinions of my own:

    Locke is Alperts “constant”? And vice versa?

    Connie in Alaska: I had the same thought, maybe Widmore and Ellie are a couple and Penny is their daughter. they left the island so they baby could be born. Somehting has happened between them to cause Ellie to team up with Ben.

    I agree with Cat. The bomb gets buried and Dharma builds the Swan around it to study the source of the radiation.

    Dave – Love the theory of the children’s names = JACOB!

    Can’t wait until next week!

  9. losthsv says:

    What a great episode! I think this episode is leading us to see the answer to mysteries like the four-toed statue. At any point I think we are going to see Richard and his merry band of Others be a part of an ancient civilization on the island. Just how far back will the time-jumping go?

  10. Grifter7 says:

    Great Episode last night! It really got me thinking about the time travel aspects of the show, and thus I give you my theory on how the Island works:

    We have been lead to believe that the Island has healing powers, as is witnessed by Locke’s repeated healing and ability to walk, Rose’s cancer being cured, etc.

    However, I do not believe the Island has these healing abilities. Instead, I think the Island has time abilities (as we know it certainly does) which allow the inhabitants of the Island to revert to previous states of their bodies. Therefore when Locke appears to be healed and can walk again, he did not really heal. He reverted back to before his back was broken. Rose’s cancer being “cured” was her reverting back to before she had cancer.

    If for instance someone had been crippled their whole lives, they would not be “healed” by going to the Island because they had never been (for lack of a better word) uncrippled (is that even a word?). They have no previous state to revert to.

    Let’s take this a step further. If you realized how this works, you could revert to a previous state and “hold” there. Time would pass but you would remain the same. Thus how Richard Alpert has and will always look the same and never appear to age. Perhaps this holding ability is because of the Vaccine (as I hypothesized last week)? This might also explain why the Losties are time traveling bodily while the Others remain behind between time jumps.

    Let’s take this even one step further. You die off the Island and then are brought back to the Island. Your body/mind/soul reverts back to before you were dead. Thus how Christian Sheppard’s casket was empty and he can walk around on the Island, and how Locke will be “revived” once brought back to the Island.

    So what else does this mean for the Island? The pregnant women who die giving birth? Obviously time is needed for the baby to grow and develop. If the woman’s body is trying to revert to a previous state, and the body of the woman is fighting to progress through the pregnancy, the conflict might end up killing both the woman and the baby. Though to contradict my own argument why do the mother’s not revert back after death? Perhaps it is a choice and they choose not to live without their babies?

    I think the Island likes for things to remain the same. It resists change, even those of time.

  11. lara says:

    I agree with all the thoughts about Richard being ageless, but I’d love to have an origin story for him. Being that the farthest back we’ve gone in the Black Rock, wouldn’t it be great if it were Captain (or even more appropriately, First Mate) Alpert?

  12. Nancy says:

    I loved this episode. I am really trying to be spoiler-free and I don’t know if the Jones/Widmore reveal was out there, but I loved the experience of the OMG moment!! Very cool.

    Now for my two cents–I feel that Ellie is Mrs. Hawking. She probably is Daniel’s mother, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if the writers are setting us up on that one. It just seems too obvious. However, I don’t believe that Ellie ever had anything to do with young Charles Widmore. Their one scene together shows that he’s a punk and she couldn’t stand him. I don’t think that they concieved a child together–at least not willingly. Can’t wait to hear the podcast Ryan & Jen.

  13. ImAnOther108 says:

    This was a great episode. I have a feeling that Jughead was buried near the swan station and that’s what went off when Desmond turned the fail safe key. I also have a feeling that Ellie is Mrs. Hawkings, after all, Daniel said she looked familiar to him. Perhaps it’s his mother. And I really hope that they don’t kill off Charlotte, she was beginning to grow on me. I want to find out more about her past. She may also be helpful to solve the mystery of the 4-toed statue.

  14. Cathy says:

    So if we have seen Widmore on the Island, and we think we have seen Mrs. Hawking on the Island (Elllie), I wonder if Mr. Paik has been on the island before.

  15. eEditor says:

    I thought a very understated, compelling moment was when Richard tells Locke that they have “a very specific process for choosing our leadership, and it starts at a very young age”. I know I’m slow in the head, but is that why the Others wanted Walt & Aaron?

    Also, back in season one, the Others referred to the “list” of people they wanted. Was that mystery ever solved? Do you think it will resurface again in future episodes?

  16. Dave says:

    The Others wanted “the good people.” They did make off with a few children from the Tailies camp as well. It’d be interesting if it does resurface in the future… they sort of disappeared (we saw Cindy the flight attendant a few times, and some other Others, but they all disappeared with Richard).

    Cathy, I’m sensing a Heroes shout out. Widmore = Mr Petrelli, Ellie = Mrs Petrelli, Paik = Mr Nakamura… I hope not because I feel like Heores should be stealing from Lost and not vice versa. Next thing we know Locke will me meeting a white samurai who can’t die and Nikki will be returning forom the grave as her own triplet sister. 😉

  17. Connie in Alaska says:

    Nancy-good point about young ‘n’ punky Widmore not likely to get together with Ellie. Could there have been a rape? And who is older, Daniel or Penny? I would have said Penny, but I don’t think Ellie is Penny’s mother. Of course, this is all speculation and in all likelihood I am barking up the wrong timeline ;O)

  18. Joy says:

    Great episode! Charles Widomore was an Other! Holy crap! Didn’t see that coming. I really would have guessed that he had something to do with the Dharma Initiative, rather than his and Ben’s battle being some kind of inter-Other civil war. Although maybe both things end up being true.

    I’m stumped on Alpert’s story as well. I agree that he he seems to be traveling through time in a linear way, but why he seems to be the only one who doesn’t age, I haven’t got a clue.

    This is my first time posting, so I just have to say I love love love your podcast. Thanks!

  19. Dave says:

    Joy —

    Maybe after Widmore leaves the island, he can’t go back. (See my crazy half baked theory above.) So he assembles the DHARMA initiative to find the island and make his presence felt on it. Then Ben winds up on the island via DHARMA (much like Locke winds up on the island via Oceanic 815) and eradicates DHARMA at the bidding of Richard, thus severing Widmore’s ties to the group. This might explain why Widmore hates Ben, Richard, etc.

    We don’t know if Ben and Widmore were involved with the Others at the same time. They are adversaries, but not necessarily rivals. But it’s not unreasonable to think Widmore has his hands in DHARMA, and it might explain why his paramilitary men (Keamy) showed up ready for a war this time instead of being gassed and killed en masse.

    Maybe?

  20. Mike says:

    Really awesome comments everyone! Here’s something I thought about while reading these that I don’t think anyone has brought up yet. If Mrs. Hawking really is Daniel Farrady’s mother, then Desmond has already met her! She wouldn’t let him buy the ring in the jewelry store. I wonder how that meeting, if it ever happens, will pan out.

    Also, I’ve long felt that Alpert’s story line is one of the most intriguing. This episode only fueled that opinion. I like the Black Rock thought, lara.

  21. Feanor says:

    I think people are being a little quick to suggest Widmore has to rape Ellie for them to have a child. Penny must be considerably younger than 50 years old, so if they are her parents, they won’t concieve her for a long time.

  22. Steve says:

    What if Pen and Des’ Charlie is Charles Widmore? It fits the daddy issue theme since Widmore hates Des (his daddy). It also might explain why Widmore is into sailing since he grew up sailing around with mom and dad. It also fits why Widmore doesn’t seem to mind breaking the “rules” (his existence depends on it).

    I’m a firm believer that Hawking/Widmore have a history and are probably the parents of Faraday. And if this is the case it adds depth to the idea that they are on opposite sides of the “time police” struggle. And of course, this sheds light on why Ms. Hawking gave such a dire warning to Des about not messing with the time line last season… since it leads to the birth of Charles Widmore… the big baddie of the Lost universe.

    Or not. You never know. 🙂

  23. Steve says:

    More theorizing…

    After re-reading the page about “The Incident” on Lostpedia the following thought occurred to me:

    Dharma discovered the Jughead encased in concrete and devised a plan to divert energy from the Orchid to dispose of it through a wormhole type thing. However an incident occurred while working on this project where they realized that this was much too risky.

    But now Jughead was exposed to EM radiation and the Swan Station had to be built to divert that radiation away from the H-bomb by pressing the button every 108 minutes. The failsafe switch that Desmond activated was designed to actually proceed with Dharma’s original wormhole plan in an emergency (eg. the button couldn’t be pressed) – hence the purple flash and Desmond travelling through time as a result. This would explain why there was a big hole where the Swan used to be – but I’m still not sure how Locke and Echo survived…

    ???

  24. One thing that I noticed that hasn’t been brought up here: if you were watching this show on HD, then you would have seen that Alpert was wearing eye liner and had some other eye make-up on.

    The eye liner was really noticeable.

    So there is a bomb on the Island and Daniel F asks that the bomb be placed in cement, then we know that he was working for the crazy Asian scientist later on, and we know that Desmond is Daniel’s constant. There is a connection there – but what…

    Las Vegas is Lost…but that’s a whole other story!

    Ian

  25. Dave says:

    Steve, are you suggesting that Penny’s son is her father? That’s some messed up stuff and really would violate the “grandfather paradox.”

  26. Steve says:

    Dave,

    I’m suggesting that Penny’s father is actually her son – posing as her father. 🙂

    Widmore could have taken Penny from her real parents when she was young. He seems to have the resources to pull that off.

  27. John Fischer says:

    Ian,

    This has apparently come up before and not only does the actor not wear eye liner, he doesn’t wear any facial makeup. Apparently he has very dark features like that.

    John

  28. Atoms says:

    During Daniel’s confrontation with Ellie just prior to Sawyer’s appearance, he says, rather clearly, “You want to take care of this, mom?”

  29. paintergirl1 says:

    Great comments so far. I have three comments to add:

    1. I’m trying to figure out if the following is significant or simply a continuity error. I fear it is the latter. When Jones/Widmore comes running up to Richard, he refers to his partner as “Cunningham.” That was the name embroidered on his shirt. However, Widmore’s shirt said “Jones,” so I’m assuming those were just the names of the army officers they killed and then stole from. If that’s the case, why use the name Cunningham instead of the gentleman’s real name. I don’t believe any non-others were present at that time.

    2. I think we’re trying too hard to make a connection between Penny and Hawking. Just because Charles and Ellie (possible Eloise) were on the island at the same time does not necessarily mean they knew each other on a more interpersonal basis. This is Lost, not the Young and the Restless :).

    3. I also feel trying to match Boone’s Theresa and Daniel’s Theresa may be a stretch. It’s common practice on this show to reuse names several times. Just look at all the characters named Daniel/Danny, Adam, Tom/Thomas, etc… we see on this show. The fact these two ladies have the same name may be more of a literary technique to show some parallel between the characters and their tragic endings.

    Thanks for providing such an excellent forum for these kinds of discussions. What will we do in two years when there is no more Lost?

  30. paintergirl1 says:

    @Atoms – He think he actually said, “Do you want me to take care of this bomb.” I checked the episode transcript, and I can’t find any references to the word “mom.”

  31. MJ from Midwest says:

    In note form here are my observations outside of the great comments above:

    Desmond and Penny were hiding in Mabuhay in the Philippines, where Charlie is born. This was a flash back, one year or nine month since leaving the island. Then we flash to present day London where Desmond tells Charlie about a very special island with glens and monsters and deep locks (LOCKE) called Great Britain. Quote “We’re here because of Daniel Faraday.” Penny says it’s been 2 days since Des remembered Daniel at the hatch. Lots of promises are made.

    There is no way Des will break his promise to Penny. And I think it safe to predict that Des will certainly go back to the island. So Penny might be a future casualty, releasing Des from his promise. “Promise me that you’ll never go back to that island again.” (Penny) “Why in Gods name would I ever want to go back there?” (Des) Good question.

    I would only add to the attic scene in that it appears that Daniel left in a big hurry, papers and equipment still in place. Mice incinerated (nice touch Widmore). So are they keeping it ‘under covers’ for possible future use? Otherwise you think it would have been an empty attic that Des found. And the use of the term ‘record’ to refer to Daniel, twice.

    Desmond in disguise with glasses. Sing it with me. He knocks 3 times on the door (if you want me). We meet the Spenser sisters. Was anyone was able to read that very Dharma-like name plate? Theresa skipped to 3 year’s of age wanting her dolly (sound familiar) and chats with her father who be dead for 5 years. Abigail says that Desmond went to the States. To see mom?

    And I think a shout out to Dickens “God bless him” everyone.

    Widmore’s office continues his collection of ‘island’ art with polar bears and NAMASTE. The address book is hugh and looks like its got a lot of information in it. Obviously, Melanie, the secretary, does not have access to these numbers.
    Widmore says “Wait, Desmond. After you deliver your message” go back into hiding. I am not remembering correctly. Did Desmond tell Widmeore about giving Daniel’s mom a message?

    Was that Peter Rabbit or Runaway Bunny that Pen recites? I have not been lurking on blog site. Charlie has a pink bunny. Is this an Easter Egg, to go with his pink bunny slippers?

    Pen says that she and Charlie were fishing, unsuccessfully. Desmond lies, unsuccessfully. Penny is fishing for answers. She get it. Daniel’s mom is in LA. Anyone else think that Penny has agenda?

    Best scene: Penny and Des “It’s not a problem anymore . . . I guess we’re going with you. Someone above mention their theme music is a bit different. I caught that too, but could figure out.

    TO THE ISLAND – Daniel’s group
    2 Red shirt – Boom.
    “dizzy and double vision” were these Thersa’s early symptoms? Charlotte says they are running for their lives. Looks like a slow walk into a trap to me. Miles gives up Daniel like a hot pocket. And what’s with that crazy camera-on-the gun pan by Ellie from Miles to Daniel?

    Ellie says there were 20 of you on the beach. LOL That means they heard Rose, Bernard and Frogurt yelling all day. Doesn’t anybody listen to John Locke “we’re not alone on this island” Miles hears dead US soldier who tell him that 3 were shot and one died from radiation poisoning. He tells Daniel. Faraday KNOWS that Miles can hear the dead. His response ‘Did they happen to mention what year?” In the tent, Daniel says that the flash could happen in 5 minutes or 5,000 years. That’s a big span of time, Daniel.

    Daniel’s professed love if Charlotte is maybe not real. I think that he realizes that if Charlotte doesn’t find a constant soon, she may die. He is presenting himself as her ‘love’ in hopes that if it worked for Des, it will work for Charlotte. Will she buy it? She has certainly changed her behavior towards Daniel since the FDW turned.

    There was something odd about Alpert’s threat to Daniel. It read as if you do anything other than help disarm the bomb, then YOU will hurt her. Instead of the more customary, I will hurt her.

    Alpert’s reveal of the ‘customary chain of command’ and we’ pick our leadership’ seems to indicate not one, but a cabal of Others at the top.

    Widmore has no qualms about killing, maming and lying. So the Others go around testing very young children Lama fashion, enroll them in a special school, take them to the island where they defend it at all cost, murder, purge, etc. What kind of people are you?

    Only Daniel and Locke have private conversations with Others. In Daniel’s case, he goes with Ellie to see Jughead and reveals he is from the future. Locke sits down with Richard and reveals he’s from the future. Flash. These two conversations along with the incident may be our flash points. And I believe them to be history changing. So can Desmond fix this?

    Best line, from Sawyer: “Drop your gun, Blondie” This is in front of Jughead and finally our connection to Archie of comic book fame. So if Blondie is Ellie and Archie is Widmore, who is Jughead, his time traveling friend? See first comment in this blog from Nadia for jughead comments.

    ON THE ISLAND – John Locke’s group
    5 in this group. 2 Others. If nothing else, the Others do adopt and adapt. Now they want everyone to believe they’re US military. Not hillbillies. “Who are these people? (Locke) Sawyer’s reply “didn’t have time to ask with Frogurt on fire and all”

    Moment of silence.

    Also, notice the way that Juliet stops Locke from revealing what he know via Alpert to Sawyer. This was my biggest worry. As usual, no sharing with this crowd. When will Locke finally tell Sawyer that the O6 is alive? And why doesn’t Juliet want Sawyer to know.

    Nice to hear Latin spoken. I’m I an Other?

    Crazy Town. If it is part of the orchid or swan stations, then the Others would have had to of moved it, and we see that the radiation was already killing people. The FDW is very far underground, so not there (unless they tossed it down the volcano and it blended with the magma and unusual properties of the island and somehow a donkey wheel went in with it . . . Years go by and Dharma builds on top of it. I think that the Orchid is on top of a ridge? There is more reason to think that it is the Swan Station, but the properties of electromagnetism seems off? Any physics majors in our group?

    Second best line, Jones aka Widmore (“enlightened my ass”): “Do you think he can track me? Do you think he knows this island better than I do?” Widmore will certain remember John Locke from his past, the old geezer that track him to Crazy Town. So while Ben stated that ‘I am sorry that I made your life so miserable.” maybe it was Widmore putting him through the ringer, and Ben just didn’t stop him. Widmore certainly has more anger to direct to Locke than Ben.

    I am still watching the new story telling style for this season. They did use the flashback, but not ‘eye’ lead-ins. And I noted that as soon as John suggested that Alpert visit, we flashed.

    sorry for the length. I initially disliked this episode. The thud factor gone. And I like the on-off island stories being told together. Ryan, I think you are right and that we will see more O6 in the next epi . .. snooze. The previews for next week bring us back to S1, S2 events. Yeah. Will Miles talk to Nikki and Paulo, Boone or Ethan? Yikes!

  32. BeckyD says:

    I think it’s certain that Charlie Hume is named after Charlie Pace. Daddy issues aside, why would Pesmond name their child after Widmore? Charlie was sort of instrumental in Penny continuing her search for Desmond and eventually finding him.

    Also, I loved Desmond storming Widmore’s office and demanding information without offering any in return. Didn’t even call him “brotha!”

  33. MJ from Midwest says:

    One last reply to “who is Dan Faraday’s mother? Just on the outside chance the writers are throwing us under the Apollo bus . . . I’m going to say it’s Margo Shephard. She’s in LA and very private. She’s so private that she didn’t even go pick up her husbands’ body in AU. That would make Faraday Jack brother. Ponder that. Ok, my real reason is that I picked Margo in my DarkUFO Fantasy League team, and I could use the points. Congrats Ryan for pulling ahead last week. But I am in the money after last nights epi! My team is the Lottery Tickets.

  34. Dave says:

    MJ — Jughead’s last name is Jones. Widmore’s nameplate is Jones. However, according to Wikipedia [if it’s on Wikipedia, it must be true], Jones is the second most numerous surname in the UK at just over 1% of the population, and has a frequency of 0.62% in the US with an overall rank of 4th most frequent. So I’ll try not to mistake fate and coincidence. 😉

    I just don’t see Widmore as Archie — if anything, the tempestuous and wealthy Widmore would be more of a Reggie or Veronica to the fans of the Archie series. I suspect that Sawyer calling Ellie “Betty” is more of an homage to her 1950s style and/or the bomb (and episode) being “Jughead.” Little wink-wink from Darlton.

  35. Steve says:

    Becky,

    I agree that Pen and Des certainly named their son after Charlie Pace. I’m saying that Charlie Hume grows up to be Charles Widmore. Which is possible now that time travel is in the mix.

    And then when Penny is born Charles Widmore takes her from her real parents as his own daughter for protection.

    It might be too Terminator for Lost – but last night’s episode proved that time paradoxes are fair game with Locke having been the one to send Alpert to visit him at his birth.

  36. Atoms says:

    @paintergirl1

    When Ellie says “What did you just say?”, is she reacting to “mom,” or “50 years from now” — or both?

  37. Angela says:

    I’m right up there with Jen! It was an amazing episode! “The Man Behind the Curtain” was my favorite of all time until “The Constant.” Then “There’s No Place Like Home” replaced “The Constant” as my favorite but now I think “Jughead” takes the cake! The moment when I realized “Jones” was a young Charles Widmore I literally gasped!!! It was an amazing revelation and it makes so much sense! I know every one is thinking it but I really think that Ellie is a young Ms. Hawking and that she is Daniel’s mom. So who is his dad? Is his dad’s last name really Faraday or did he just adopt the name Faraday because of Michael Faraday? Lost is is answer mode, but I LOVE how there are still so many questions for us to ponder. And Ryan and Jen, I just love your podcast and I can’t wait to hear all of your thoughts about my new favorite episode, “Jughead!”

  38. Bill says:

    I think it’s plausable that Jughead is buried at the Swan.

    Daniel Faraday’s UK friend in the comma/time travel loop — could it be Annie (Ben’s childhood friend)? She comes and goes and asks for her “doll.”

    If Others are from the Black Rock, as we assume Charles Widmore has a connection with that ship — how did Ellie Hawking get on the island?

    Richard Alpert goes WAY back. Maybe to the four-toed statue days. Could “the island” be Atlantis?

    Notice that one of the Others/Army guy’s name tag was Jones? Get it, Jughead Jones from Archie comics.

  39. Bonita (from Atlanta) says:

    lots of great posts!
    I am wondering about the picture in Daniel’s lab.
    I thought the girl looked a bit like Libby and half expected the bedridden girl to be her. Is it certain the blonde in the photograph is in the bed?

    Hopefully we’ll see Libby’s story explored this season. Hate to wait until the last one.

    I am loving the time travel aspect. I wish Lost had been more up front about being a Sci Fi show. Other recent shows involving time have failed: Journeyman, New Amsterdam, etc.

    Bonnie at About Lost will have her hands full this year!

    Looking forward to the podcast as always!

  40. Iwantdesmondshair says:

    After watching Jughead I came up with this crazy idea about JACOB. It’s a little far fetched but here it is as I have posted it on several sites.

    Locke will time travel many more times to the past and to the future. At one point far in the past he will have to explain to the people he encounters how and why he is on the island. Locke will say he is on the island because “JACOB sent him” (that is what he truly believes). Locke’s immense knowledge of the island and the fact that he disappears (from the time traveling) makes everyone he encounters believe that he is a very powerful man and they believe what he says. Without knowing it Locke is actually creating the lore of JACOB. Over the years JACOB becomes a godlike figure because Locke appears at different times and tells the people of the island things that eventually come true, and he does it all in the name of JACOB. So JACOB in the present (2004 island time) is actually the result of Locke “skipping around” in time.

    Wouldn’t it be ironic if when Locke heard “JACOB” in the cabin it was himself “unstuck” from the future…………….

  41. Iwantdesmondshair says:

    A few opinions about Jughead. First it was awesome! I totally agree with Jen, this was one of the best LOST episodes ever. It felt like old school LOST to me, when you only see half of the cast in one episode. The episode wasn’t crammed with too much info, I actually sat back and enjoyed this episode without stressing out over it. It was suspenseful, action packed, made you think, and revealed just enough to keep you pulled in.

    I finally regained my connection to the characters in this episode. I really felt bad for Faraday when Charlote goes get passes out and you can really feel his frustration. I hope there is more of this awesomeness to come all season. Great episode!

  42. paintergirl1 says:

    @Atoms

    Thank lostpedia.com for the following transcription:

    “FARADAY: Just bury it. Bury it, and everything will be fine. Remember, your superior ordered me to take care of this.

    ELLIE: How can you be so sure?

    FARADAY: You wanna take care of this bomb?

    ELLIE: How?!

    FARADAY: You bury it!

    ELLIE: How do you know that?

    FARADAY: Because 50 years from now, this island is still here!

    (Ellie cocks her rifle.)

    FARADAY: There you– (sighs)

    ELLIE: What did you just say?

    FARADAY: Whoa. Take it easy. I can explain myself a little better. I know how this sounds. Believe me, it’s… oh, it’s hard to explain. 50 years from now, me and my… me and my friends–that’s where we’re from, okay? And–here’s the key–everything’s fine. I’m not saying it’s perfectly fine, but there hasn’t been any atomic blasts, all right? There has not–

    (Sawyer jumps out from behind some foliage with a rifle of his own pointed at Daniel’s captor.)”

    I don’t think the word “mom” came into it. I think her “what did you just say” was a reference to the “50 years.”

  43. ManilaRaf says:

    Am watching the episode now, am purposely avoiding reading any of the posts here. Took iTunes long enough to start downloading my Season Pass.

    Just wanted to say about the opening in the Philippines:
    -I only heard two distinct phrases in Tagalog:
    1) Opening view of the beach, male voice, “Oo marami dito.” = “Yes, there’s many here.”
    2) Same scene with child’s voice, “..tayo.” = “..us.”
    The rest is all blended together, especially the scenes where cards are being played.

    -The banner you see in the background as Des & Dr Salong run along the quay, says “Mabuhay”, which is a greeting in Tagalog, which is close to and as multipurpose as “Aloha”

    -One a note of accuracy, the production crew nailed it. The card players were using Philippine Currency. I could see the orange colored 20 Peso bill prominently used.

    Love the shoutout. And I’m sure it was easy to use the Philippines as a setting, since, as Ryan can confirm, there’s a substantial Filipino Community in Hawaii.

    Now back to watching the rest of the episode…

  44. Dave says:

    Iwantdesmondshair… interesting idea.
    So will the whole thrust of the series be that the Losties brought this upon themselves?

  45. jeff speck says:

    I think Daniel is Charlottes dad.

  46. mike says:

    I am pretty sure they were filming the keiki rides @the Punahou carnival grounds this evening. Didn’t see any cast members, but the equipment was way to good for a regular crew.

  47. Steve says:

    I think Daniel’s crazy hair in that picture is the greatest thing ever. Ever.

  48. ManilaRaf says:

    For the first time ever, I took notes while watching. Hopefully this’ll cut down on my disjointed & frequent posts.

    -When I first saw Elie, I thought she was a young Danielle…until she starting speaking.

    -When she told Daniel, “You couldn’t stay away could you,” I initially thought this might mean something, but now I agree that she mean it in the sense that the US Army couldn’t stay away from the Island.

    -Regarding the use of Latin:
    1) Didn’t the blast door map have a lot of Latin written on it?
    2) Perhaps the Others/Hostiles are Roman in origin and built the 4 toed statue?

    -Anyone else notice the Room in Oxford that Desmond Sees? Clarendon 14208. 42 in the middle of 108.

    -The girl in the Photo that Desmond saw of Daniel appears to me to be Theresa. What did she mean to him and why would he leave her like that?

    -The janitor who catches Desmond mentioned other people who’ve asked about or have been poking around the lab. Who are these other people?

    -Just how much does Juliet know about Richard Alpert that she isn’t saying. She’s apparently gone a long way from her initial encounter with him as a recruiter for Mittelos Bioscience.

    -Regarding Theresa:
    1) If her consciousness is jumping back and forth due to Dan’s experimenting, why hasn’t she perished like Eloise, Minkowski, et al?
    2) Has Daniel found a way to have someone jump without perishing?
    3) Is this why he’s shocked by what’s happening to Charlotte? Did he find a way to have someone jump without dying, thinking that Charlotte would be stable. But something went wrong and now he’s shocked at what’s happening to Charlotte.

    -Why is Widmore paying not only for Daniel’s research, why is he keeping Theresa alive and on life support? Is there a reason he’s doing this?

    -Regarding the H-Bomb (aka Jughead):
    1) Just how in the name of Jacob did the US Army manage to find the island? (But it answers the question of the why there’s a proliferation of US military equipment on the island)
    2) Where is it buried?
    3) I’m leaning to it being buried underneath the Swan, but wasn’t the Swan related to electromagnetism? Just because there’s concrete, doesn’t mean that’s where it’s buried.
    4) The last time we saw burns like that was with Goodwin. We were led to believe that it was due to toxic chemicals, but perhaps it was due to being near and keeping watch over the bomb?
    5) Perhaps the lingering radiation effects explain the fertility problems with the women and with Ben’s spinal tumor?

    Overall, I loved the episode. I’m in the Philippines, so I guess I’m not exposed to the hype. I thought it was a good continuation from last week. Gave a lot of reveals, but as usual brought about more questions.

    1) Why is Richard Alpert all nice and tidy with his button down shirt and slacks in 1954, but appears so disheveled when he appears to Ben in the 1970s?
    2) How does Widmore go from being an on-island other to this apparently sinister weathy industrialist off-island. I’m beginning to think the race around the world really was a way to find the island (just like the really Henry Gale, the Kahana).
    3) What are the rules that Ben & Widmore talked about? Since we now know that Widmore is from or was on the Island, does this change anything about that conversation?
    4) Just what the hell is the Smoke Monster? =)

    Can’t wait for the podcast Ryan & Jen. And I definitely can’t wait for the next LOST episode.

    Mahalo & Mabuhay!

  49. ManilaRaf says:

    Just some further thoughts:

    1) I’m really bugged about the US Army finding the Island. Was the Island easy to find in times past or wasn’t it? The Army found it. DHARMA found it. Yet it’s become hard to find as well, Widmore’s spent 20 years. Ben & the O6 apparently can’t just go back to it.

    2) I’ve gone back and watched Charles Widmore’s Scenes in “Jughead” “Because You Left” and “The Shape of Things to Come”

    -Supposedly, the last time Widmore saw Desmond was in that scene where Desmond got out of prison. Desmond leaves for the sailing race (presumably Widmore knew Desmond was in the race since he sponsored it), gets trapped on the Island. Penny spends years looking for Desmond. Now Widmore hasn’t seen Penny in 3 years. He hasn’t seen Desmond in even longer. Yet there he is, cool as a cucumber when Desmond walks into his office. He acts as he’s known Desmond has been alive all these years and has been with Penny the last 3.

    -Did Widmore previously know that his people on the freighter found the Island? Because if he didn’t he found out by either: 1) Ben telling him that his daughter (Alex) was killed, or 2) Desmond saying that he knew about Daniel Faraday.

    -Again, Charles acts so nonchalant when Ben says that Charles killed Alex. It’s as if Charles already knew what happened. In the 3 years since Alex was killed to 2007, how did Widmore get this information?

    -In “The Shape of Things to Come”, Charles says, “That Island is mine Benjamin, it always was, it will be again.” How can we reconcile this statement with Charles’ appearance in Jughead? His younger self has referred to the Island as “our island” (as has Elie). But how can it be HIS Island when obviously he’s not as high ranking as Richard?

    -How does Ben get into the picture? What is the rank order between/among Ben, Charles, & Richard (or Locke for that matter).

    I have to say, I love Season 5 so far. It’s been just a non-stop roller coaster ride and there’s been substantially less filler than in previous years. Nearly everything that’s happened has or potentially has a great bearing on the storyline or mythology of LOST.

  50. Steve says:

    I have the feeling that Widmore knows the outcome of a lot of events in advance. It may be how he amassed his fortune. I believe he is firmly entrenched on the side of not caring about “the rules”, is somehow able to mess with the timeline and does so regularly. Or at least, he did when he was in control of the island.

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