Next: “Jughead” (Episode 5×03)
At the closing thud, Jen proclaimed “Jughead” her favorite episode ever. While I’m nowhere near ready to bestow that crown, I’d certainly agree that it was a fantastic chapter in “LOST.” And, like many Desmond-centric outings, probably a pivotal one. So many threads connected, such satisfying epiphanies, I imagine “Jughead” reaffirmed the loyalty of sometimes skeptical fans. Revisiting the lines alone make my brain tingle. “I assume you’ve come back for your bomb?” “Put the gun down, Widmore.” “If you don’t believe me, come and visit me.” And “You are my life now… you and Charlie.”
It was Locke that sent Alpert to visit him at birth, and as a small boy? Awesome. Though if Alpert did indeed keep that compass to show young Locke, there are some space-time knots to untangle. Widmore as a young, somewhat daft Other? Fantastic. So does he fall for Ellie, and do they conceive Penny? Who is Mommy Widmore, anyway? And yes, it seems all but a given that Mrs. Hawking is Faraday’s mother (as tonight solved the “how could Ben be visiting her in London” questions). If so, it’s a building non-surprise that is probably the only thing that disappointed Jen tonight. They could surprise us, but I’m just hoping it’s not as drawn out as, “It was Michael on the freighter!”
That Daniel confessed his love for Charlotte was sweet, but it was also obvious things weren’t going to go well for them. I was more struck by how Desmond paused when the Oxford clerk asked him what year he visited. It was more than a simple case of forgetting, I think, which is admittedly understandable if you’ve been unstuck in time. I think he used to know, but realized at that moment that he forgot. Just as Charlotte couldn’t remember her mother’s maiden name. The harder Desmond insists he won’t go back to the island, the more likely that he’ll have to.
Theresa was an interesting development. Obviously, Faraday turned his purple lamp on her and dislodged her brain in time. But why is she still alive, and why is Widmore invested in her survival? And the fact that her name is Theresa takes us back to the recently referenced vision Locke had of a bloody Boone reciting her name, “Theresa falls down the stairs, Theresa falls up the stairs…”
The absence of the Oceanic Six in “Jughead” was conspicuous, and frankly, refreshing. As with last week’s pairing, it was clear tonight that the best stories are on the island. But now I fear a future episode will be spent entirely off island. I love Hurley, Ben, Jack, Sayid, and Kate, but I think the “LOST” creators were right when they said the fans would revolt if they spent all of Season 5 trying to return.
Notes & Notions:
- Is “Jughead” what’s behind the Chernobyl-like concrete Sayid finds below the Swan? It’s a distinct possibility. But the Swan was tapping a massive magnetic force. Unless “Jughead” caused it to develop, it seems like a pretty unlikely spot to bury a hydrogen bomb.
- The show isn’t even sheepish anymore about showing us redshirts that invariably meet an untimely end. Two more are dispatched within a minute or two of us asking, “Who are those guys, anyway?”
- Ageless Alpert remains a mystery. “He’s always been here,” Juliet says. Yet, he seemed pretty baffled by Locke’s time travel explanation.
- Locations: St. Andrew’s (Oxford), Honolulu Brewing Co. on Queen St. (Theresa’s home exterior), Manoa Valley Inn (Theresa’s home interior), Keehi Boat Harbor (seaside village).
What did you think? Join the conversation below and share your thoughts, as we’d love to include them — along with our more detailed analysis — in the next podcast. Please post a comment here, send us an e-mail at lost@hawaiiup.com, or leave a short voicemail on the LostLine at (808) 356-0127 by Friday, Jan. 30, 2009.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Jughead’s Time Police was a series that began in 1990 featuring Jughead as a hero of the 29th century and a member of the Time Police, an organization that ensures history to remain the same for the future’s sake. In this series, the beanie gives Jughead the ability to time travel by thinking. With his supervisor, Marshal January McAndrews, Jughead repairs disturbances in the past.[3]
(Thanks to Wikipedia…)
I am not sure if I should have posted it now or after…but it gives you something to think about during the show…..
January 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
He is the description of the show…
Upon receiving a special beanie from an unknown benefactor, Jughead gains the ability to travel to the past and future at will. Joined by Deputy January McAndrews (Archie’s descendant from the 29th century), Jughead travelled across history, ensuring that history stayed on its proper course. Paradoxes and existential dilemmas were often plot developments. The main villain was the time-travelling sorceress Morgan le Fay, who may have been a descendant of Reggie Mantle. Jughead has a secret love interest in Archie’s descendant January McAndrews.
Is this the referance to Jughead??? or is there another one?
Again sorry if this should have been after the show.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Just a comic series..not a show. My mistake there…can’t wait till the episode.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Also jugheads real name was Forsythe….
Meaning…
Scottish “Fear” meaning “man” “Sith” meaning “peace”
Desmond means “Man of the World/Peace”
Ok ok ok …i will stop now.
January 28th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I was watching the rerun of the lie and I think I just saw the actor that plays Walt in a Tyson Chicken commercial. Did anyone else think that was him?
January 28th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Hi!
The woman that is chasing Faraday around with a gun is Naomi when she’s young!! He says she looks like someone he used to know and she greets him with “oh you again?”
What do you think??
January 28th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Wow, that was a fantastic reveal on Charles Widmore!
Widmore is really a hostile! I have a theory that Christian Shepherd is like Charles Widmore and was also one of the Hostiles!
Great show keep up the great work!
January 28th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I think that the Theresa in this episode is the same one referenced by Boone when he said, “Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs.” I have no idea how this would be possible, but I think the name cannot be coincidence.
Also, he named his son Charlie!!! Just made me smile.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Laura, I don’t think it’s Naomi… I think that’s Mrs Hawking. Check out their hairstyles (very clearly shown in last week’s second episode). She’s about the right age as well (maybe slightly younger than Widmore) and if that is Faraday’s mother perhaps there’s a Faraday-Penny-Des connection yet to be revealed.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Hmm. Disappointing episode for me that did not live up to the spoilers which hinted it would be a real key episode. It asked more questions than it answered which is not, in my mind, good at this point in the story. Tomorrow I’ll ask all of the questions.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Ok….so jughead was the bomb.
I liked that in widmores office there was a painting of a polar bear and the word nameste on the painting.
Also a few things..
in last weeks episode where has suns accent gone.
Desmond named his son Charlie…..which Charlie is it…widmore or charlie?
January 28th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
That explains why Richard is seen showing the items to Locke and why he was present at his birth.
NICE
January 28th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Ok, I know this is LOST, but don’t you think Widmore could have been a little more specific in his warning to Desmond? Something like, this guy has vowed to kill my daughter so you might want to go back into deep cover and start getting paranoid? I just think a little more info would be in order if someone was gunning for my loved one.
Anyway, enjoyed the episode. Especially the fact that Desmond barged in on Widmore and demanded some “ansas brotha!” and Widmore capitulated. Great stuff for a Desmond fan. Now I am already stressed out worrying about Penny who is on her way to Ben’s gunsights. Sheesh, and this is just episode 3?
The on-island stuff was quite good too. Loved Sawyer’s line about not having a secret language. Looks like this is going to continue to be a high adrenaline season.
Looking forward to the podcast as always, Ryan and Jen.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
It was nice to see some things revealed and some questions answered. I really liked the addition of the Others speaking Latin. I was very interested when Juliet said that all of the Others had to learn it as “Others 101″. I wonder if they picked Latin since there’s not any native speakers of it left, and the chances of outsiders actually speaking Latin is pretty low.
I loved the Daniel-Widmore connection being revealed. The blonde girl with the gun looked like she was about 13 years old. Did they say her name at all? I figured that Widmore had been on the island at some point, but I certainly didn’t expect him to be a soldier with some serious neck snapping moves! I loved when he said that it wasn’t like the old man (Locke) could track him to the Others’ camp or anything, that was hilarious.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
OK, since others are talking about the episode, here are my thoughts:
Each episodes ask new questions and answer ever fewer:
Who exactly are The Others and why were they dressed in army uniforms? Where did they come from?
Charles Widmore was a young “soldier” of the Others 50 years ago. How did he get to the island? and from where?
What happened to the bomb, aka “jughead” and how will it come into play in the “future” of the island?
What is the signficance that Penny and Desmond’s son’s name is Charlie?
So what really was accomplished by showing us what happened in 1954?
Theory:
The young English woman who held the gun to Daniel in the jungle is his mother. She has the same hairstyle as Mrs. Hawking who we all know now is definitely Daniel’s mother since Charles Widmore said she is in LA as we saw at the end of “The Lie.” When she saw her own son, she said “You just had to come back didn’t you.” So Mrs. Hawking was also once “an Other”, but just who are the Others?
January 28th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
So good. The writers did a great job with the latin, it makes perfect grammatical sense in latin too, which is incredibly impressive for a TV show. I love how everything is falling into place due to the island’s time traveling. that said, they killed Ginger, wtf. No good.
I like the theory that Hawking is Faraday’s mom.
And I think its supposed to be Charlie Pace, but its ambiguous, which is clever
January 28th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
I think this was a brilliant episode. I loved it. John Fisher, agree that Ellie is Eloise Hawking and that she is Daniel’s mother. She was an other with Charles Widmore. Wow. Not sure what it means but fascinating. So the US Army knows about the island and the bomb was burried and there is radiation down in the hatch…mayb the bomb is leaking the radiation and thats why the numbers have to be pushed to let the gases escape. Speaking of the bombs, all those little ones planted in the earth around the island. When someone steps on them, there is smoke. Hum..connected with smokey?
I loved that Des named his son Charlie. That was my favorite moment.
And poor Charlotte, looks like she is dead and gone.
These are just my initial thoughts…I’ll see what else comes to mind after sleeping on it! I love this show!
January 28th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
another quick question…I keep thinking about the photo on the desk with the monks with hawkings and to me looks like maybe an older faraday maybe? Michael faraday was once a deacon of a church. Was it revealed who was in that picture? Also who was in the picture was hawkings in the dusty room in oxford… I missed it.
Also how did Locke know a flash was coming and others didn’t?
January 28th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Also, if Ellie is Eloise Hawking, that would explain the name of Daniel’s rat, Eloise. Good call on that one! I was left a little disappointed by this episode at first, but now that I think about it, we got a lot of golden clues!
January 28th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
According to the enhanced episode of “The Lie” aired January 28th (in the US), Mrs. Haking’s full name is Eloise Hawking. Daniel’s experimental mouse at Oxford was named Eloise. The young woman in “jughead” was called “Ellie.” She is definitely Daniel’s mother.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Also, if Ellie is Eloise Hawking and she is Daniel’s mother (which it seems apparent that she is), that would explain the name of Daniel’s rat, Eloise. Good call on that one! I was left a little disappointed by this episode at first, but now that I think about it, we got a lot of golden clues!
January 28th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Good episode! Best thing about it, NO JACK AND KATE! They bring everything to a grinding halt.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I loved the episode! I think it definitely lived up to the hype. It’s amazing that there were only two characters in the whole hour that were in the first season. Just shows how this show has morphed into something completely different.
I like the idea that Ellie is Daniel’s mother. I hadn’t thought of that. At first I thought she might be the woman that was in a vegetative state in Oxford.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to the podcast as always! Thanks so much Ryan and Jen!
All the best,
Mike
January 28th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Great episode. There has got to be more on the bomb right? Why have the episode Jughead where the bomb is not really a major character? Great to know Widmore was on the island when he was younger, as we suspected. Ben likely somehow outs him once he arrives and takes over. I think you guys are right, the young girl is Ms. Hawking. Could they be killing off Charlotte this soon? Also note that Locke told Richard when and where he was born, which is why Richard showed up to meet Locke, and had the compass!
Feel free to read my season by season recap/review over at http://www.davidrstorms.com (sorry for the shameful plug!)
January 28th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
I have to say that while this was a very good episode, I didn’t think it lived up to the hype that I had been hearing and reading about. Some were saying this episode ranked up there with The Constant, Through the Looking Glass, and all the other top episodes, but I just don’t see it. Maybe because I had all these great expectations in my head from what I had been hearing : ) Still great and enjoyable though. Still Lost!
I guess I hadn’t noticed anything about the young Others gal that held the gun on Daniel. Where are we getting that she is Mrs. Hawking? I think someone else might have pointed it out, but I thought she looked a lot more like the girl in the coma that desmond visited. Could there be a young AND old Mrs. Hawking both existing in off-island present?
Ryan…I don’t know if you read Doc Jensen’s columns, which are fantastic, but if you did a week or two ago, you must have grinned. His first big theory of the year that he shared with readers is that, in last season’s finale, when claire tells kate, “don’t you dare bring HIM back”, she is refering to the dead body of Locke. Also, from Something Nice Back Home, when Hurley relays dead Charlie’s message to Jack that “you’re not supposed to raise him Jack”, Jensen postulates that the him that shouldn’t be raised is John Locke, as in from the dead. This is a great theory, but I happened to be listening to your podcast from last year’s season finale, in which you had the exact same theory! Maybe Doc is a Transmission listener….or maybe great minds just think alike : )
January 28th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Locke- Widmore ? Charles Widmore.
Widmore – yes
Did anyone else give the obligatory Homer Simpson,” D’oh! ”
Stupid Sawyer, that guy can not hit the broad side of a barn ! Since season 1. But he is full of great one liners so we will let it go.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
How far has this series come? Do you realize that there were only two characters in this episode who ever appeared in season one? Sawyer and Locke. Amazing!
January 28th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
As for the others being “soldiers” and dressed in army uniforms, I believe they just took those from the US Soldiers they killed. They showed most of them with bows and arrows at the creek and only Ellie had a gun, the rest still had their original native weapons, the same ones they killed Frogurt with. The others are the natives to the island, and just take what they can get from whoever shows up on their island.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Okay, I didn’t see anyone else mention this, so I’ll just toss this in. Richard Alpert is throwing me for a serious loop. Before, I thought the key to his not aging was that he was sort of “unstuck” in time like Desmond was, only different (if that makes any sense.) Now, we find out that when the island flashes, so does he. So he actually has some sort of constant linear progression – he just doesn’t age. Honestly, time traveling made more sense than just a man who doesn’t age. I just don’t know anymore! What do you think?
January 28th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Great episode — I wanted it to go on and on for hours. The plot has really taken off now, and anyone who continues to seek “answers” is missing the point. The Big Picture is being filled in from the edges.
Two observations: I really hope Damon & Carlton aren’t planning on making the Desmond & Penny Story a tragedy. Please, guys, this one love story deserves to be a happy one. And do ya think a buried hydrogen bomb might have something to do with the final episode of the series?
BTW, Cathy, my wife thought that was “Walt” in the Tyson commercial, too. I wasn’t so sure.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
some have suggested previously that maybe widmore left the island by moving the frozen donkey wheel. now that we have seen him on the island, this seems like a better possibility…except for this question: how would he get to it? a couple decades later, chang/halliwax/candle & company can hardly come within 20 meters of it. is there another way to access it? or is there another one somewhere else on the island?
January 28th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
It is the actor who played Walt in the Tyson commercial and as you can see he is a very tall and muscular lad now.
January 28th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Just curious for a little info,
I noticed in the music during the conversation between Desmond and Penny near the end that the piano line hits a same progression that can be found in the middle of Elton John’s “Funeral for a Friend (Love Lies Bleeding)” What I don’t know is if that in itself was a lift from a previously recorded piece (Maybe I should check in with Jimmy in Seattle!)
Also, I’m starting to wonder if Penny’s actually manipulating Desmond psychologically to find Faraday’s mother (dig the Ellie/Eloise theory, that rocks!). Penny appeared to want him to end his search, but when he finally says to her that he’ll forget all the memories, she responds “”You’ll never forget it Des, so I guess we’re going with you.” Something’s up there, that my fragile little mind can’t comprehend right now. Lost I go…
January 28th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Alright, awesome episode! Nice little tick by throwing Widmore in there, so i have a few questions in reference to that. What do you all think happens between 1954 and the purge (where i presume widmore lost his power, if he had any at that point) that causes him to later tell ben in season four that it was his island. And also, do you all think penny was born on the island? I believe she was due to her lack of a mother figure. Anyhow, great podcast, keep it up! =)
January 28th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
It seems as though Alpert is stuck in a kind of Bill & Ted loop. He must keep history going so that it doesn’t get messed up. Locke is important to Alpert in some kind of a time sense. Alpert giving Locke the compass is like Future Bill & Ted saying to Present Bill & Ted, “Don’t forget to wind your watch!” After all, we know that Alpert is present at Locke’s birth, and visits him a few years later to test him. In 1954, Locke tells Alpert his birthdate, which occurs in two years. This is so that Alpert can keep his role as a Jughead Time Police Officer, by ensuring, after every go-round, that he gives Locke that compass.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Fantastic episode. Loved it. A few thoughts:
- Desmond should NOT, under ANY circumstances, take Penny and Charlie to LA. Ben is in LA, and any meeting between him and a member of Charles Widmore’s family (particularly Penny, but anyone would do, I’m sure) is all but guaranteed to end badly for the party opposite him.
- So Alpert went to meet young Locke because old Locke told him to. How trippy is that?
- Finally, I’m beginning to wonder if Daniel’s first/only flashback, of him crying at the news of the Oceanic crash, might not be as firmly placed in time as it appears– particularly so if Jen’s theory of the Last Scene of Lost has real potential. If this takes place in the future, Daniel may not *remember* why the crash would effect him, but he would certainly *know* (somewhere in that crazy brain) and probably react to it. As his pre-Island timeline expands (now we have the whole incident with the coma girl to consider) it’s harder to fit an institutionalized Dan into the mix; much easier, maybe if this occurs in the future.
What do you think?
January 28th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I think it’s clear that the H-bomb is buried under the future Swan Station. Recall Jack and Sayid crawling below and coming across a cement wall more than 10 feet deep. Sayid says the last time he saw something like this was Chernobyl.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Great episode! A few notes:
- I watched the enhanced version of “The Lie” as well and it pretty much spelled out for the audience that Eloise Hawking is Daniel Faraday’s mother, unless they plan on throwing us a double swerve. As noted, ‘Ellie’ did have a hairstyle similar to Ms. Hawking. If they plan this to be a big reveal, I think they need to be a little less zealous during the ‘enhanced’ episodes – even though it was telegraphed last week.
- What would be more tragic than Penny and Desmond’s story ending with Penny’s death is if Penny is manipulating Desmond. It did seem that Penny was giving Desmond some of Ben’s “Make them think it’s THEIR idea” form of manipulation. However, it’s too early to tell, just like it’s too early to make a judgment call on the nature of Sun’s conversation with Kate last week.
- Richard Alpert’s agelessness is now an even bigger mystery than before. I thought it would be neatly wrapped up as part of the time travel theory but it appears it hasn’t. Would love to hear you guys discuss this more on the podcast!
- I think Charlie Hume is definitely a reference to Charlie Pace. So far, all of the castaways who’ve made it off the island have exhibited symptoms of survivor’s guilt and I think that’s a nod in Desmond’s direction that he too feels he needs to return to the island and rescue the ones left behind. Maybe Desmond is feeling guilty over Charlie’s death and wants to make his penance by rescuing the others, in the same way Michael felt guilty over the death of Ana-Lucia and Libby.
- I don’t think Charlotte is dead. I’m not going to spoil it for those who skip over the previews at the end of the episodes, but something tells me she isn’t.
- I too saw the Tyson’s commercial and I do believe that was Walt. I think I may have just found a new “LOST” snack!
Can’t wait for the podcast, guys. Great episode!
January 28th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Great episode. Loved the details like Charlie being Desmond and Penny’s son. Jones really being Charles Widmore. Locke telling Richard Alpert to visit him after he’s born.
Glad I was wrong on it being the future, but still wonder what the rules are if Locke is able to kill someone in the past. Unless, of course, the guy he threw the knife at in “The Lie” did a Mikhail and didn’t really die.
So, the woman pictured with Desmond who is in the “coma” is time-skipping too but she’s managed to stay alive all that time. Does she have a constant or has Widmore been paying the expenses in order to discover a cure from the death by nosebleed?
January 28th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Another juicy episode. Loved Sawyers, “What, you told her?” line and Miles’ “I fine, too.” They are definitely the kings of the one-liners.
Haven’t seen this out there yet, so I will pitch it to see where it lands: What if Widmore and Hawking were married or “together” and Penny and Daniel are siblings or at least half siblings…hmmm? It would make some sense as they both seem to be Others on the Island at the same time and would explain why he is funding Daniel’s research. Also, a falling out between Widmore and Hawking could have created a rift in the Others that provided the opportunity for sneaky Ben to make his power grab and caused them to take sides. Ben is obviously on the side of Hawkings who may have even helped him dethrone Widmore….hmmm.
Loved that Des & Penny named their boy Charlie. Seem to be lots of little Losties running around now…Aaron, Ji-Yeon and now Charlie…who’s next? And will be see them grown up in the future at some point?
Richard Alpert is becoming my favorite Lost puzzle…Juliet seems to know something about him, but in traditional Lost fashion, she doesn’t go into any detail about why he doesn’t age. One thing we learned tonight that surprised me is that the Others were not in on the time traveling properties of the Island. Richard seemed genuinely stymied by Locke’s story of time travel and meeting him in the future…or is he just pretending not to know? Hmmm.
January 28th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Great episode glad to get some answers,
I think will Ben became leader of the others instead of Widmore which started the battle for the island.
Mrs Hawking will prob end up being daniels mom but i think it could be a bluff as they seem to be leading us to belive this.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
I agree with Jen mostly, though I think The Constant still marginally beats it. But that just shows that Desmond is a corker of a character. I teared up when he said the baby’s name was Charlie. I hope that was a way for the writers to remind us about Charlie and assure us they’ll get back to that vision of Desmond’s. Sometime.
I love Ellie as Daniel’s mum, especially when she says ‘not you again’, it makes a lot of sense though, if they’re related and have some kind of connection there.
And though I almost expected the Widmore reveal, it was nice they covered it up with the surnames on the Army uniforms, which implies the Others are either using aliases (he called the other one by the surname on the uniform – Cunningham, but Richard didn’t call him ‘Jones’).
Really great, and definitely looking forward to the rest of the show, though I share some of Ryan’s concerns that this means we may get a fully off-island ep to make up for not showing us the Oceanic Six this time around. There really wouldn’t have been time though.
Most of all, I feel so bad for Daniel. Maybe that’s why he was crying at the start of S3… I can’t wait at all for next week’s.
oh, and as a ps. a lot of young Brits go over to the US to au pair for families, I guess that Theresa could have done that and then gone back to work for Daniel. Or that she’s unstuck in time, but not in a deadly way. Her sister said she thought she was 3 one time, etc etc
January 29th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Many people are assuming Ellie knew Daniel. The statement she made when they crossed paths initially was in reference to the soldiers who had arrived recently. If she knew him to be her son, when they were alone she would not have continued to threaten him with the rifle. I believe her to be his mom and I believe he recognized her. However, I don’t believe the recognition went both ways because Locke recognized Richard but Richard did not recognize Locke.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:39 am
Did anyone else notice that the actress (Mary Ann Taheny) who played the desk clerk at Oxford (she told Des that there was no Faraday in the computer) was the same actress who played the gate attendant in Exodus Part 2 (Hurley gave her a hug when she held the plane for him)? It is probably just one of those “we needed an actress who can do an English accent” issues and is not suppose to be the same person- but… this is Lost and you never know.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:42 am
Robert,
I think you’re right about Ellie’s line “you just couldn’t stay away, could you?” I don’t think she recognized Daniel for the reasons you explain. She believes he is the leader of another group sent to the island just like the soldiers who apparently The Others wiped out. I suspect that soldiers arrived and set up their hydrogen bomb. At some point The Others found out, attacked them and killed them. The Others then stole their uniforms and moved into their tent city. The Others like to move up to a new neighborhood. After they wipe out Dharma years later they move into their homes and use their goods also.
Anyway, having wiped out the soldiers, The Others are on the look out for more who would be searching for their missing soldiers. This is why they attacked the 815ers on the beach and then attacked Sawyer and Juliet and later Daniel et al. It was interesting to note that The Others didn’t set up the booby traps. Apparently the soldiers who set up the bomb did, presumably to protect it and themselves from the indigenous islanders. So, when Ellie speaks to Daniel, she’s assuming he’s the leader of the second wave of soldiers or scientists sent with the bomb.
I do, however, suspect that Daniel recognizes her as his mother. It’s interesting that he didn’t try to tell her. She probably would have thought he was crazy since apparently The Others have no knowledge of time travel, at least back in 1954.
So, it seems Richard does not bounce around in time. He lives a very linear life. His visit at Locke’s birth and later when Locke is young is because Locke told him to do it. Clearly, though, Richard doesn’t age. Why? Do the rest of The Others age? I didn’t see any older people in Richard’s group, but later we meet people like Mr. Friendly who is older. Apparently though, it’s the island that keeps them from aging, since when people leave they do age, i.e. Ellie and Widmore.
I still believe that The Others may be the crew of the Black Rock hence Widmore’s great interest in it and painting of it on his wall at work and at home. Once they arrived on the island they ceased aging as long as they stayed on the island.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:59 am
Oh, and I suspect that Mrs. Hawkings’ interest in time travel and physics which she apparently passed onto her son, is because when she was young she ran into a group of people who claimed that they were bouncing through time and whom she saw disappear right before her eyes.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:30 am
-I don’t think the bomb is in the Swan station. First of all, why would the others, who have control of it, give it to the Dharma Initiative – their mortal enemies, to build a station around. Second, Dharma didn’t arrive until 20 years after that episode, don’t you think the others would have tried to bury it like Daniel said or get rid of it some other way in that time. Lastly, Dharma was there to study the unique properties of the ISLAND, they could have built a hydrogen bomb anywhere in the world and done stuff with it there.
-I don’t agree with the guy suggesting Richard is in a time loop. As it appears right now, his story is completely linear… he stays on the island with the other others after Locke disappears, as he told John when he took the bullet out of his leg, “I didn’t go anywhere, you did”, and presumably after he gives Locke the compass he stays in that same spot too and moves in normal time, we just don’t see his perspective.
-I don’t think the compass would even be in a never-ending loop either, because we assume its something Richard has had his whole life that will make him believe Locke is from the future. So, when Locke came from the future in 1954 and gives him the compass, does the one he already has just disappear? I don’t think it would, he would probably have 2 compasses at that point that are identical. So then he goes on having 2 compasses for 50+ years until he arrives at the plane to take the bullet out of Locke’s leg, gives Locke the original compass that he has had his whole life, and continues on past that point with the other. That’s all theory of course based on the assumption that it would create 2 compasses when Locke brings him another from the future.
- I don’t think the Losties going back in time is changing the past. I think it really happened that way the first time around. They are actually there in the only ever incarnation of that time(even if the actual year is before they are born). If the rule that Faraday explains to Sawyer in the premiere is that you can’t change the future, then you really wouldn’t be able to change the past. I think Richard always really did see a time traveling person come visit him in 1954 and give him that compass and tell him he was his leader in the future, and then disappear right before his eyes in the tent. That’s why he went and visited John as a child. The guys who Locke killed really did die at that point in time by time traveling people from the future throwing knives into them, there is no evidence that prior to this they had lived longer and had a lasting impact on anything that happened. I also think that’s the real reason Locke and Sawyer weren’t able to shoot or kill “Jones”/Widmore. He had to get away because he exists in the future in London, and is the reason the Losties are where they are now by sending his team and making Ben turn the wheel. I still don’t see any paradox’s in the story (yet). Daniel going back in time and meeting what many people including me assume is his mother is NOT a paradox. Him going back and killing her, even though we know that she later gives birth to him would be, and THAT is what couldn’t happen. If they were able to go back and make things happen differently it would create multiple alternate timelines and universes, like what happens in Heroes, which the producers make fun of all the time for messing up time travel.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:37 am
Excellent episode, but I wouldn’t rate it in my Top 5 best.
First time poster (long time listener to the Transmission- best podcast out there Ryan and Jen!!) so I will share a couple of things that are rolling around in my clogged mind:
I am starting to think one of the reasons Ben brought Juliette to the Island was because he was obsessed with having a child concieved and born on there. Richard told Locke on last nights episode that they have a very specific selection process for choosing leaders and it begins when they are very young. Ben knowing this to be true perhaps thinks that the next leader could/would be born on the island and he can raise the child himself. Since the Others have not been able to have a child concieved and born on the island, Ben had his people take the child Losties just after the crash (including Walt) This would also explain why he took Alex from Danielle and raised her. My guess is that the Lostie offspring (Sun and Gin’s baby, Des and Pen’s baby, Claires Goober) are going to factor into all of this more heavily in the future.
I have a theory that at some point during the Dharma Initative they trained the Polar Bears to turn the frozen donkey wheel. They were training them in the cages, where Sawyer and Kate had been kept, to problem solve for fish shaped biscuts, polar bears can handle the cold of the chamber, have the strength to move the wheel and most importantly when we first met Charlotte she was at a dig in the Tunesian desert where they had unearthed a polar bear skeleton with a dharma collar. Training the bears to move the wheel would allow the DI to move the island as needed without sacrificing a human member of their team. If this theory holds out, I would guess that the bears came into play after the purge, when Ben was leader. (Perhaps someone else has already raised this point)
Can’t wait for the next episode (one a week isnt enough!!) and will be excited to listen to your Podcast!
January 29th, 2009 at 2:56 am
In watching over past episodes, I did notice one thing that all planes that crash onto the island share in common: dead bodies and drugs. Yemi’s body was brought to the island on his plane and had heroin on board. Oceanic 815 had Christian Shepard’s body and Charlie’s smuggled heroin. Whatever plane (Ajira Airways?) Ben and the Oceanic 6 use will have John Locke’s body and I’m sure that Jack will manage to sneak a few pills on board (Jack has taken downers before, which are opiates – same as heroin). It may just be an observation, or possibly a coincidence (are they really ANY coincidences on “LOST”?) but it makes me wonder about the ‘rules’ a little bit. Perhaps this is why John Locke needs to be brought back with the Oceanic 6, and why drugs also need to play a factor. Consider this theory:
In order to get back to the island, whoever is looking for the island needs to present it with an offering. Whether it’s a dead body for the island to raise, or a bad habit (addiction) it needs to cure an individual of, the island needs some type of offering to feed off of to stay alive, or a right of passage.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:58 am
Alysen:
I think you’re right on target with the polar bears. I think Dharma did bring them, train them and even had, at least one of them, move the island and hence pop into Tunisia. When did that happen? How long was there between the time that Dharma arrived and built the stations and Ben arrived with his father? Could it have moved sometime in there?
I also suspect that The Others need to move the island to stop the US military from finding it again for their bomb. Maybe Alpert ordered Widmore to turn the wheel, but wasn’t it buried until Dharma found it later? At some point Widmore and Ellie (we suppose) leave the island. Why? Maybe she became pregnant with Penny or Daniel and The Others know that no one can bring a baby to term on the island.
I think that there’s some tie in between the bomb, radiation, the sickness, women not bringing babies to term, the hatch with the blast doors, the need to push the button every 108 minutes (controlled release of energy?), and Sayid’s comment in Season 2 in the hatch about not seeing construction like this since Chernobyl. How that all ties together, I can’t even guess.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:09 am
Lots of good theories above. My feeling on Richard is that he proceeds linearly through time but just doesn’t visibly age. Perhaps Richard is the first resident of the island — is his superior (who I think we assume to be Jacob) not a person at all, but the island itself? — and the other Others who may have been brought to the island age, while he does not? We’ve seen the island have some restorative properties — Locke and Rose and Mikhail and perhaps Naomi and Jin/Sun all receive some healing benefit from it — and maybe some people simply do not age/deteriorate there.
I think it was Nels above who asked about Locke being able to kill the guy in the past. Mrs Hawking tells us that the universe has a way of course correcting. Locke couldn’t go back in time and kill, for example, Ben or Widmore, but he can go back and kill the sock because the sock has no bearing on his present day. Also, if the sock cut off Juliet’s hand in the past that would of course upset the future. So I guess the fudging it explanation is that things course corrected.
I like the idea that Locke somehow influences Alpert to seek him out in the future, similarly to how Alpert influences Locke to seek him out in the past. Sort of reminiscent of Donnie Darko and of the Desmond/Faraday situation. It inspired me to do a little searching and I eventually came to this Wikipedia article on “predestination paradox” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox), which is a central concept of the show (don’t confuse fate with coincidence). Really, whether something is coincidence or predestined, in a linear concept of time (e.g. what we have) is open for debate. But when time becomes nonlinear (e.g. the record skipping phenomenon) you can imagine that past (or future) events can affect the present. The Wiki stub clearly differentiates this from the “grandfather paradox” (you can’t go back in time and kill your own grandfather).
January 29th, 2009 at 3:22 am
I also agree with the poster above that the military garb worn by the others is a costume. We’ve seen the others wearing costumes in the past. Widmore in particular has a nameplate of Jones (Jughead’s last name) on his uniform. I do not doubt that they were attacked at some point and do think it’s an intriguing possibility that at least some of the Otehrs (probably not Alpert) came off the Black Rock.
A theory: Locke enlightens Alpert as to how they select a leader. Widmore expects to become the leader and as he is perhaps a big less earthy-crunchy than Alpert rebels against his ideas. Or perhaps he is appointmed the leader. Regardless, Widmore for some reason is forced to turn the frozen donkey wheel to move the island to save it, and now he can never get back. He starts a company, makes tons of money, and becomes a terrifying businessman who uses his unparalleled wealth to fund crazy science experiments and drop pregnancy tests and supplies on an island that he somehow can’t find. (Recall the Widmore brand pregnancy test, though perhaps that’s just, dare I say it, coincidence?)
Meanwhile, Alpert needs a new right-hand man, so he selects a child brought to the island by the Dharma folks (known to the Others as the Other Others
) — Ben. Widmore becomes envious of Ben because he can’t return to the island because there can only be one right-hand man at a time. Hence the conflict.
But now Locke, by winding up on the island, alters the past so Alpert seeks him out as a child. Alpert doesn’t think at the time that Locke is appropriate as his right hand man (presumably because he still has Widmore then, a few years after we see them on the island and likely before Ben is the young boy who first gets recruited. Eventually Locke becomes Ben 2.0 (e.g. Widmore 3.0) and we are where we are.
Clearly there’s more to the story than that, but there seems to be an issue wherein once someone leaves the island they can’t get back without doing something special. Perhaps for Widmore to go back, he’d need Ben’s dead body, since Ben supplanted him… and that’s how Ben can get back with Locke’s dead body? I don’t know.
(What a long and half baked theory I just wrote.)
January 29th, 2009 at 3:25 am
Also, one other thought after reading Connie in AK’s post.
Ji-Yeon (Jin an Sun’s son)
Aaron (Claire/Kate’s son)
Charlie (Des and Penny’s son)
Will we see an “O” offsping and a “B” offspring to make JACOB?
J could also be John (Locke) or Jack.
C could be Christian (Shepherd).
B could be Ben.
If he wasn’t dead, Neil could have been frOgurt.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:25 am
I think the bomb was burried and the Swan built around the source of the radiation from the bomb. I agree with John Fisher that this is all connected to the numbers and the button pushing etc but just how, I’m not sure.
I like the polar bear connection and yes, if they turned the donkey wheel, it is logical to assume that they would land up in Tunesia just like Ben.
January 29th, 2009 at 3:28 am
Kevin — really interesting observation.
I wonder, since we only have two planes so far, whether this kind of connection could be made to Desmond’s arrival by boat, or Henry Gale’s arrival by hot air balloon…
January 29th, 2009 at 4:30 am
I found Juliet and Dan a bit annoying this episode. They clearly know a lot more than they are revealing. If I were Locke or Sawyer I would be demanding more information from Juliet about the others and Dan about time travel. What is Juliet’s true agenda? She could be doing a lot more to help them against the others.
I also think that Walt comes back to the island and gets caught in the time loop. Remember in the season finale last year, an older Walt knows where to find Locke and tell him to get out of the pit because he had things he had to do. Locke specifically said Walt was much older when he saw him.When Walt appeared to Shannon the second season, he was wet and said things backwards, perhaps because he teleporting or something.
But there were several things I loved about the episode, Desmond’s son Charlie, the reveal about Widmore, which I already suspected. The reveal that Locke actually told Richard to visit him at his birth. Dan revealing his love for Charlotte. Mrs. Hawkings appears to be Ellie and Dan’s mother. I love the thought mentioned earlier that Dan’s appearance might have set off her interest in time travel.
It appears next week that Charlotte may still be alive. The losties also travel back in time to see Claire giving birth to Aaron. I am curious as to how Widmore arrived on the Island and when he arrived.
January 29th, 2009 at 4:33 am
I also meant to say Walt may have been wet because he had just been captured off the boat of the others at the time he was contacting Shannon. I am trying to remember what he said to her, was it “push the button, not pushing the button is bad?”
January 29th, 2009 at 4:43 am
Wow, some really great comments!
A few opinions of my own:
Locke is Alperts “constant”? And vice versa?
Connie in Alaska: I had the same thought, maybe Widmore and Ellie are a couple and Penny is their daughter. they left the island so they baby could be born. Somehting has happened between them to cause Ellie to team up with Ben.
I agree with Cat. The bomb gets buried and Dharma builds the Swan around it to study the source of the radiation.
Dave – Love the theory of the children’s names = JACOB!
Can’t wait until next week!
January 29th, 2009 at 4:56 am
What a great episode! I think this episode is leading us to see the answer to mysteries like the four-toed statue. At any point I think we are going to see Richard and his merry band of Others be a part of an ancient civilization on the island. Just how far back will the time-jumping go?
January 29th, 2009 at 5:24 am
Great Episode last night! It really got me thinking about the time travel aspects of the show, and thus I give you my theory on how the Island works:
We have been lead to believe that the Island has healing powers, as is witnessed by Locke’s repeated healing and ability to walk, Rose’s cancer being cured, etc.
However, I do not believe the Island has these healing abilities. Instead, I think the Island has time abilities (as we know it certainly does) which allow the inhabitants of the Island to revert to previous states of their bodies. Therefore when Locke appears to be healed and can walk again, he did not really heal. He reverted back to before his back was broken. Rose’s cancer being “cured” was her reverting back to before she had cancer.
If for instance someone had been crippled their whole lives, they would not be “healed” by going to the Island because they had never been (for lack of a better word) uncrippled (is that even a word?). They have no previous state to revert to.
Let’s take this a step further. If you realized how this works, you could revert to a previous state and “hold” there. Time would pass but you would remain the same. Thus how Richard Alpert has and will always look the same and never appear to age. Perhaps this holding ability is because of the Vaccine (as I hypothesized last week)? This might also explain why the Losties are time traveling bodily while the Others remain behind between time jumps.
Let’s take this even one step further. You die off the Island and then are brought back to the Island. Your body/mind/soul reverts back to before you were dead. Thus how Christian Sheppard’s casket was empty and he can walk around on the Island, and how Locke will be “revived” once brought back to the Island.
So what else does this mean for the Island? The pregnant women who die giving birth? Obviously time is needed for the baby to grow and develop. If the woman’s body is trying to revert to a previous state, and the body of the woman is fighting to progress through the pregnancy, the conflict might end up killing both the woman and the baby. Though to contradict my own argument why do the mother’s not revert back after death? Perhaps it is a choice and they choose not to live without their babies?
I think the Island likes for things to remain the same. It resists change, even those of time.
January 29th, 2009 at 5:38 am
I agree with all the thoughts about Richard being ageless, but I’d love to have an origin story for him. Being that the farthest back we’ve gone in the Black Rock, wouldn’t it be great if it were Captain (or even more appropriately, First Mate) Alpert?
January 29th, 2009 at 7:14 am
I loved this episode. I am really trying to be spoiler-free and I don’t know if the Jones/Widmore reveal was out there, but I loved the experience of the OMG moment!! Very cool.
Now for my two cents–I feel that Ellie is Mrs. Hawking. She probably is Daniel’s mother, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if the writers are setting us up on that one. It just seems too obvious. However, I don’t believe that Ellie ever had anything to do with young Charles Widmore. Their one scene together shows that he’s a punk and she couldn’t stand him. I don’t think that they concieved a child together–at least not willingly. Can’t wait to hear the podcast Ryan & Jen.
January 29th, 2009 at 7:33 am
This was a great episode. I have a feeling that Jughead was buried near the swan station and that’s what went off when Desmond turned the fail safe key. I also have a feeling that Ellie is Mrs. Hawkings, after all, Daniel said she looked familiar to him. Perhaps it’s his mother. And I really hope that they don’t kill off Charlotte, she was beginning to grow on me. I want to find out more about her past. She may also be helpful to solve the mystery of the 4-toed statue.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:14 am
So if we have seen Widmore on the Island, and we think we have seen Mrs. Hawking on the Island (Elllie), I wonder if Mr. Paik has been on the island before.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:17 am
I thought a very understated, compelling moment was when Richard tells Locke that they have “a very specific process for choosing our leadership, and it starts at a very young age”. I know I’m slow in the head, but is that why the Others wanted Walt & Aaron?
Also, back in season one, the Others referred to the “list” of people they wanted. Was that mystery ever solved? Do you think it will resurface again in future episodes?
January 29th, 2009 at 8:36 am
The Others wanted “the good people.” They did make off with a few children from the Tailies camp as well. It’d be interesting if it does resurface in the future… they sort of disappeared (we saw Cindy the flight attendant a few times, and some other Others, but they all disappeared with Richard).
Cathy, I’m sensing a Heroes shout out. Widmore = Mr Petrelli, Ellie = Mrs Petrelli, Paik = Mr Nakamura… I hope not because I feel like Heores should be stealing from Lost and not vice versa. Next thing we know Locke will me meeting a white samurai who can’t die and Nikki will be returning forom the grave as her own triplet sister.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Nancy-good point about young ‘n’ punky Widmore not likely to get together with Ellie. Could there have been a rape? And who is older, Daniel or Penny? I would have said Penny, but I don’t think Ellie is Penny’s mother. Of course, this is all speculation and in all likelihood I am barking up the wrong timeline ;O)
January 29th, 2009 at 9:05 am
Great episode! Charles Widomore was an Other! Holy crap! Didn’t see that coming. I really would have guessed that he had something to do with the Dharma Initiative, rather than his and Ben’s battle being some kind of inter-Other civil war. Although maybe both things end up being true.
I’m stumped on Alpert’s story as well. I agree that he he seems to be traveling through time in a linear way, but why he seems to be the only one who doesn’t age, I haven’t got a clue.
This is my first time posting, so I just have to say I love love love your podcast. Thanks!
January 29th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Joy —
Maybe after Widmore leaves the island, he can’t go back. (See my crazy half baked theory above.) So he assembles the DHARMA initiative to find the island and make his presence felt on it. Then Ben winds up on the island via DHARMA (much like Locke winds up on the island via Oceanic 815) and eradicates DHARMA at the bidding of Richard, thus severing Widmore’s ties to the group. This might explain why Widmore hates Ben, Richard, etc.
We don’t know if Ben and Widmore were involved with the Others at the same time. They are adversaries, but not necessarily rivals. But it’s not unreasonable to think Widmore has his hands in DHARMA, and it might explain why his paramilitary men (Keamy) showed up ready for a war this time instead of being gassed and killed en masse.
Maybe?
January 29th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Really awesome comments everyone! Here’s something I thought about while reading these that I don’t think anyone has brought up yet. If Mrs. Hawking really is Daniel Farrady’s mother, then Desmond has already met her! She wouldn’t let him buy the ring in the jewelry store. I wonder how that meeting, if it ever happens, will pan out.
Also, I’ve long felt that Alpert’s story line is one of the most intriguing. This episode only fueled that opinion. I like the Black Rock thought, lara.
January 29th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I think people are being a little quick to suggest Widmore has to rape Ellie for them to have a child. Penny must be considerably younger than 50 years old, so if they are her parents, they won’t concieve her for a long time.
January 29th, 2009 at 10:07 am
What if Pen and Des’ Charlie is Charles Widmore? It fits the daddy issue theme since Widmore hates Des (his daddy). It also might explain why Widmore is into sailing since he grew up sailing around with mom and dad. It also fits why Widmore doesn’t seem to mind breaking the “rules” (his existence depends on it).
I’m a firm believer that Hawking/Widmore have a history and are probably the parents of Faraday. And if this is the case it adds depth to the idea that they are on opposite sides of the “time police” struggle. And of course, this sheds light on why Ms. Hawking gave such a dire warning to Des about not messing with the time line last season… since it leads to the birth of Charles Widmore… the big baddie of the Lost universe.
Or not. You never know.
January 29th, 2009 at 10:25 am
More theorizing…
After re-reading the page about “The Incident” on Lostpedia the following thought occurred to me:
Dharma discovered the Jughead encased in concrete and devised a plan to divert energy from the Orchid to dispose of it through a wormhole type thing. However an incident occurred while working on this project where they realized that this was much too risky.
But now Jughead was exposed to EM radiation and the Swan Station had to be built to divert that radiation away from the H-bomb by pressing the button every 108 minutes. The failsafe switch that Desmond activated was designed to actually proceed with Dharma’s original wormhole plan in an emergency (eg. the button couldn’t be pressed) – hence the purple flash and Desmond travelling through time as a result. This would explain why there was a big hole where the Swan used to be – but I’m still not sure how Locke and Echo survived…
???
January 29th, 2009 at 11:08 am
One thing that I noticed that hasn’t been brought up here: if you were watching this show on HD, then you would have seen that Alpert was wearing eye liner and had some other eye make-up on.
The eye liner was really noticeable.
So there is a bomb on the Island and Daniel F asks that the bomb be placed in cement, then we know that he was working for the crazy Asian scientist later on, and we know that Desmond is Daniel’s constant. There is a connection there – but what…
Las Vegas is Lost…but that’s a whole other story!
Ian
January 29th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Steve, are you suggesting that Penny’s son is her father? That’s some messed up stuff and really would violate the “grandfather paradox.”
January 29th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Dave,
I’m suggesting that Penny’s father is actually her son – posing as her father.
Widmore could have taken Penny from her real parents when she was young. He seems to have the resources to pull that off.
January 29th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Ian,
This has apparently come up before and not only does the actor not wear eye liner, he doesn’t wear any facial makeup. Apparently he has very dark features like that.
John
January 29th, 2009 at 11:56 am
During Daniel’s confrontation with Ellie just prior to Sawyer’s appearance, he says, rather clearly, “You want to take care of this, mom?”
January 29th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Great comments so far. I have three comments to add:
1. I’m trying to figure out if the following is significant or simply a continuity error. I fear it is the latter. When Jones/Widmore comes running up to Richard, he refers to his partner as “Cunningham.” That was the name embroidered on his shirt. However, Widmore’s shirt said “Jones,” so I’m assuming those were just the names of the army officers they killed and then stole from. If that’s the case, why use the name Cunningham instead of the gentleman’s real name. I don’t believe any non-others were present at that time.
2. I think we’re trying too hard to make a connection between Penny and Hawking. Just because Charles and Ellie (possible Eloise) were on the island at the same time does not necessarily mean they knew each other on a more interpersonal basis. This is Lost, not the Young and the Restless
.
3. I also feel trying to match Boone’s Theresa and Daniel’s Theresa may be a stretch. It’s common practice on this show to reuse names several times. Just look at all the characters named Daniel/Danny, Adam, Tom/Thomas, etc… we see on this show. The fact these two ladies have the same name may be more of a literary technique to show some parallel between the characters and their tragic endings.
Thanks for providing such an excellent forum for these kinds of discussions. What will we do in two years when there is no more Lost?
January 29th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
@Atoms – He think he actually said, “Do you want me to take care of this bomb.” I checked the episode transcript, and I can’t find any references to the word “mom.”
January 29th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
In note form here are my observations outside of the great comments above:
Desmond and Penny were hiding in Mabuhay in the Philippines, where Charlie is born. This was a flash back, one year or nine month since leaving the island. Then we flash to present day London where Desmond tells Charlie about a very special island with glens and monsters and deep locks (LOCKE) called Great Britain. Quote “We’re here because of Daniel Faraday.” Penny says it’s been 2 days since Des remembered Daniel at the hatch. Lots of promises are made.
There is no way Des will break his promise to Penny. And I think it safe to predict that Des will certainly go back to the island. So Penny might be a future casualty, releasing Des from his promise. “Promise me that you’ll never go back to that island again.” (Penny) “Why in Gods name would I ever want to go back there?” (Des) Good question.
I would only add to the attic scene in that it appears that Daniel left in a big hurry, papers and equipment still in place. Mice incinerated (nice touch Widmore). So are they keeping it ‘under covers’ for possible future use? Otherwise you think it would have been an empty attic that Des found. And the use of the term ‘record’ to refer to Daniel, twice.
Desmond in disguise with glasses. Sing it with me. He knocks 3 times on the door (if you want me). We meet the Spenser sisters. Was anyone was able to read that very Dharma-like name plate? Theresa skipped to 3 year’s of age wanting her dolly (sound familiar) and chats with her father who be dead for 5 years. Abigail says that Desmond went to the States. To see mom?
And I think a shout out to Dickens “God bless him” everyone.
Widmore’s office continues his collection of ‘island’ art with polar bears and NAMASTE. The address book is hugh and looks like its got a lot of information in it. Obviously, Melanie, the secretary, does not have access to these numbers.
Widmore says “Wait, Desmond. After you deliver your message” go back into hiding. I am not remembering correctly. Did Desmond tell Widmeore about giving Daniel’s mom a message?
Was that Peter Rabbit or Runaway Bunny that Pen recites? I have not been lurking on blog site. Charlie has a pink bunny. Is this an Easter Egg, to go with his pink bunny slippers?
Pen says that she and Charlie were fishing, unsuccessfully. Desmond lies, unsuccessfully. Penny is fishing for answers. She get it. Daniel’s mom is in LA. Anyone else think that Penny has agenda?
Best scene: Penny and Des “It’s not a problem anymore . . . I guess we’re going with you. Someone above mention their theme music is a bit different. I caught that too, but could figure out.
TO THE ISLAND – Daniel’s group
2 Red shirt – Boom.
“dizzy and double vision” were these Thersa’s early symptoms? Charlotte says they are running for their lives. Looks like a slow walk into a trap to me. Miles gives up Daniel like a hot pocket. And what’s with that crazy camera-on-the gun pan by Ellie from Miles to Daniel?
Ellie says there were 20 of you on the beach. LOL That means they heard Rose, Bernard and Frogurt yelling all day. Doesn’t anybody listen to John Locke “we’re not alone on this island” Miles hears dead US soldier who tell him that 3 were shot and one died from radiation poisoning. He tells Daniel. Faraday KNOWS that Miles can hear the dead. His response ‘Did they happen to mention what year?” In the tent, Daniel says that the flash could happen in 5 minutes or 5,000 years. That’s a big span of time, Daniel.
Daniel’s professed love if Charlotte is maybe not real. I think that he realizes that if Charlotte doesn’t find a constant soon, she may die. He is presenting himself as her ‘love’ in hopes that if it worked for Des, it will work for Charlotte. Will she buy it? She has certainly changed her behavior towards Daniel since the FDW turned.
There was something odd about Alpert’s threat to Daniel. It read as if you do anything other than help disarm the bomb, then YOU will hurt her. Instead of the more customary, I will hurt her.
Alpert’s reveal of the ‘customary chain of command’ and we’ pick our leadership’ seems to indicate not one, but a cabal of Others at the top.
Widmore has no qualms about killing, maming and lying. So the Others go around testing very young children Lama fashion, enroll them in a special school, take them to the island where they defend it at all cost, murder, purge, etc. What kind of people are you?
Only Daniel and Locke have private conversations with Others. In Daniel’s case, he goes with Ellie to see Jughead and reveals he is from the future. Locke sits down with Richard and reveals he’s from the future. Flash. These two conversations along with the incident may be our flash points. And I believe them to be history changing. So can Desmond fix this?
Best line, from Sawyer: “Drop your gun, Blondie” This is in front of Jughead and finally our connection to Archie of comic book fame. So if Blondie is Ellie and Archie is Widmore, who is Jughead, his time traveling friend? See first comment in this blog from Nadia for jughead comments.
ON THE ISLAND – John Locke’s group
5 in this group. 2 Others. If nothing else, the Others do adopt and adapt. Now they want everyone to believe they’re US military. Not hillbillies. “Who are these people? (Locke) Sawyer’s reply “didn’t have time to ask with Frogurt on fire and all”
Moment of silence.
Also, notice the way that Juliet stops Locke from revealing what he know via Alpert to Sawyer. This was my biggest worry. As usual, no sharing with this crowd. When will Locke finally tell Sawyer that the O6 is alive? And why doesn’t Juliet want Sawyer to know.
Nice to hear Latin spoken. I’m I an Other?
Crazy Town. If it is part of the orchid or swan stations, then the Others would have had to of moved it, and we see that the radiation was already killing people. The FDW is very far underground, so not there (unless they tossed it down the volcano and it blended with the magma and unusual properties of the island and somehow a donkey wheel went in with it . . . Years go by and Dharma builds on top of it. I think that the Orchid is on top of a ridge? There is more reason to think that it is the Swan Station, but the properties of electromagnetism seems off? Any physics majors in our group?
Second best line, Jones aka Widmore (“enlightened my ass”): “Do you think he can track me? Do you think he knows this island better than I do?” Widmore will certain remember John Locke from his past, the old geezer that track him to Crazy Town. So while Ben stated that ‘I am sorry that I made your life so miserable.” maybe it was Widmore putting him through the ringer, and Ben just didn’t stop him. Widmore certainly has more anger to direct to Locke than Ben.
I am still watching the new story telling style for this season. They did use the flashback, but not ‘eye’ lead-ins. And I noted that as soon as John suggested that Alpert visit, we flashed.
sorry for the length. I initially disliked this episode. The thud factor gone. And I like the on-off island stories being told together. Ryan, I think you are right and that we will see more O6 in the next epi . .. snooze. The previews for next week bring us back to S1, S2 events. Yeah. Will Miles talk to Nikki and Paulo, Boone or Ethan? Yikes!
January 29th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
I think it’s certain that Charlie Hume is named after Charlie Pace. Daddy issues aside, why would Pesmond name their child after Widmore? Charlie was sort of instrumental in Penny continuing her search for Desmond and eventually finding him.
Also, I loved Desmond storming Widmore’s office and demanding information without offering any in return. Didn’t even call him “brotha!”
January 29th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
One last reply to “who is Dan Faraday’s mother? Just on the outside chance the writers are throwing us under the Apollo bus . . . I’m going to say it’s Margo Shephard. She’s in LA and very private. She’s so private that she didn’t even go pick up her husbands’ body in AU. That would make Faraday Jack brother. Ponder that. Ok, my real reason is that I picked Margo in my DarkUFO Fantasy League team, and I could use the points. Congrats Ryan for pulling ahead last week. But I am in the money after last nights epi! My team is the Lottery Tickets.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
MJ — Jughead’s last name is Jones. Widmore’s nameplate is Jones. However, according to Wikipedia [if it's on Wikipedia, it must be true], Jones is the second most numerous surname in the UK at just over 1% of the population, and has a frequency of 0.62% in the US with an overall rank of 4th most frequent. So I’ll try not to mistake fate and coincidence.
I just don’t see Widmore as Archie — if anything, the tempestuous and wealthy Widmore would be more of a Reggie or Veronica to the fans of the Archie series. I suspect that Sawyer calling Ellie “Betty” is more of an homage to her 1950s style and/or the bomb (and episode) being “Jughead.” Little wink-wink from Darlton.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Becky,
I agree that Pen and Des certainly named their son after Charlie Pace. I’m saying that Charlie Hume grows up to be Charles Widmore. Which is possible now that time travel is in the mix.
And then when Penny is born Charles Widmore takes her from her real parents as his own daughter for protection.
It might be too Terminator for Lost – but last night’s episode proved that time paradoxes are fair game with Locke having been the one to send Alpert to visit him at his birth.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
@paintergirl1
When Ellie says “What did you just say?”, is she reacting to “mom,” or “50 years from now” — or both?
January 29th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I’m right up there with Jen! It was an amazing episode! “The Man Behind the Curtain” was my favorite of all time until “The Constant.” Then “There’s No Place Like Home” replaced “The Constant” as my favorite but now I think “Jughead” takes the cake! The moment when I realized “Jones” was a young Charles Widmore I literally gasped!!! It was an amazing revelation and it makes so much sense! I know every one is thinking it but I really think that Ellie is a young Ms. Hawking and that she is Daniel’s mom. So who is his dad? Is his dad’s last name really Faraday or did he just adopt the name Faraday because of Michael Faraday? Lost is is answer mode, but I LOVE how there are still so many questions for us to ponder. And Ryan and Jen, I just love your podcast and I can’t wait to hear all of your thoughts about my new favorite episode, “Jughead!”
January 29th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I think it’s plausable that Jughead is buried at the Swan.
Daniel Faraday’s UK friend in the comma/time travel loop — could it be Annie (Ben’s childhood friend)? She comes and goes and asks for her “doll.”
If Others are from the Black Rock, as we assume Charles Widmore has a connection with that ship — how did Ellie Hawking get on the island?
Richard Alpert goes WAY back. Maybe to the four-toed statue days. Could “the island” be Atlantis?
Notice that one of the Others/Army guy’s name tag was Jones? Get it, Jughead Jones from Archie comics.
January 29th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
lots of great posts!
I am wondering about the picture in Daniel’s lab.
I thought the girl looked a bit like Libby and half expected the bedridden girl to be her. Is it certain the blonde in the photograph is in the bed?
Hopefully we’ll see Libby’s story explored this season. Hate to wait until the last one.
I am loving the time travel aspect. I wish Lost had been more up front about being a Sci Fi show. Other recent shows involving time have failed: Journeyman, New Amsterdam, etc.
Bonnie at About Lost will have her hands full this year!
Looking forward to the podcast as always!
January 29th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
After watching Jughead I came up with this crazy idea about JACOB. It’s a little far fetched but here it is as I have posted it on several sites.
Locke will time travel many more times to the past and to the future. At one point far in the past he will have to explain to the people he encounters how and why he is on the island. Locke will say he is on the island because “JACOB sent him” (that is what he truly believes). Locke’s immense knowledge of the island and the fact that he disappears (from the time traveling) makes everyone he encounters believe that he is a very powerful man and they believe what he says. Without knowing it Locke is actually creating the lore of JACOB. Over the years JACOB becomes a godlike figure because Locke appears at different times and tells the people of the island things that eventually come true, and he does it all in the name of JACOB. So JACOB in the present (2004 island time) is actually the result of Locke “skipping around” in time.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if when Locke heard “JACOB” in the cabin it was himself “unstuck” from the future…………….
January 29th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
A few opinions about Jughead. First it was awesome! I totally agree with Jen, this was one of the best LOST episodes ever. It felt like old school LOST to me, when you only see half of the cast in one episode. The episode wasn’t crammed with too much info, I actually sat back and enjoyed this episode without stressing out over it. It was suspenseful, action packed, made you think, and revealed just enough to keep you pulled in.
I finally regained my connection to the characters in this episode. I really felt bad for Faraday when Charlote goes get passes out and you can really feel his frustration. I hope there is more of this awesomeness to come all season. Great episode!
January 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
@Atoms
Thank lostpedia.com for the following transcription:
“FARADAY: Just bury it. Bury it, and everything will be fine. Remember, your superior ordered me to take care of this.
ELLIE: How can you be so sure?
FARADAY: You wanna take care of this bomb?
ELLIE: How?!
FARADAY: You bury it!
ELLIE: How do you know that?
FARADAY: Because 50 years from now, this island is still here!
(Ellie cocks her rifle.)
FARADAY: There you– (sighs)
ELLIE: What did you just say?
FARADAY: Whoa. Take it easy. I can explain myself a little better. I know how this sounds. Believe me, it’s… oh, it’s hard to explain. 50 years from now, me and my… me and my friends–that’s where we’re from, okay? And–here’s the key–everything’s fine. I’m not saying it’s perfectly fine, but there hasn’t been any atomic blasts, all right? There has not–
(Sawyer jumps out from behind some foliage with a rifle of his own pointed at Daniel’s captor.)”
I don’t think the word “mom” came into it. I think her “what did you just say” was a reference to the “50 years.”
January 29th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Am watching the episode now, am purposely avoiding reading any of the posts here. Took iTunes long enough to start downloading my Season Pass.
Just wanted to say about the opening in the Philippines:
-I only heard two distinct phrases in Tagalog:
1) Opening view of the beach, male voice, “Oo marami dito.” = “Yes, there’s many here.”
2) Same scene with child’s voice, “..tayo.” = “..us.”
The rest is all blended together, especially the scenes where cards are being played.
-The banner you see in the background as Des & Dr Salong run along the quay, says “Mabuhay”, which is a greeting in Tagalog, which is close to and as multipurpose as “Aloha”
-One a note of accuracy, the production crew nailed it. The card players were using Philippine Currency. I could see the orange colored 20 Peso bill prominently used.
Love the shoutout. And I’m sure it was easy to use the Philippines as a setting, since, as Ryan can confirm, there’s a substantial Filipino Community in Hawaii.
Now back to watching the rest of the episode…
January 29th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Iwantdesmondshair… interesting idea.
So will the whole thrust of the series be that the Losties brought this upon themselves?
January 29th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
I think Daniel is Charlottes dad.
January 29th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
I am pretty sure they were filming the keiki rides @the Punahou carnival grounds this evening. Didn’t see any cast members, but the equipment was way to good for a regular crew.
January 29th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I think Daniel’s crazy hair in that picture is the greatest thing ever. Ever.
January 30th, 2009 at 12:45 am
For the first time ever, I took notes while watching. Hopefully this’ll cut down on my disjointed & frequent posts.
-When I first saw Elie, I thought she was a young Danielle…until she starting speaking.
-When she told Daniel, “You couldn’t stay away could you,” I initially thought this might mean something, but now I agree that she mean it in the sense that the US Army couldn’t stay away from the Island.
-Regarding the use of Latin:
1) Didn’t the blast door map have a lot of Latin written on it?
2) Perhaps the Others/Hostiles are Roman in origin and built the 4 toed statue?
-Anyone else notice the Room in Oxford that Desmond Sees? Clarendon 14208. 42 in the middle of 108.
-The girl in the Photo that Desmond saw of Daniel appears to me to be Theresa. What did she mean to him and why would he leave her like that?
-The janitor who catches Desmond mentioned other people who’ve asked about or have been poking around the lab. Who are these other people?
-Just how much does Juliet know about Richard Alpert that she isn’t saying. She’s apparently gone a long way from her initial encounter with him as a recruiter for Mittelos Bioscience.
-Regarding Theresa:
1) If her consciousness is jumping back and forth due to Dan’s experimenting, why hasn’t she perished like Eloise, Minkowski, et al?
2) Has Daniel found a way to have someone jump without perishing?
3) Is this why he’s shocked by what’s happening to Charlotte? Did he find a way to have someone jump without dying, thinking that Charlotte would be stable. But something went wrong and now he’s shocked at what’s happening to Charlotte.
-Why is Widmore paying not only for Daniel’s research, why is he keeping Theresa alive and on life support? Is there a reason he’s doing this?
-Regarding the H-Bomb (aka Jughead):
1) Just how in the name of Jacob did the US Army manage to find the island? (But it answers the question of the why there’s a proliferation of US military equipment on the island)
2) Where is it buried?
3) I’m leaning to it being buried underneath the Swan, but wasn’t the Swan related to electromagnetism? Just because there’s concrete, doesn’t mean that’s where it’s buried.
4) The last time we saw burns like that was with Goodwin. We were led to believe that it was due to toxic chemicals, but perhaps it was due to being near and keeping watch over the bomb?
5) Perhaps the lingering radiation effects explain the fertility problems with the women and with Ben’s spinal tumor?
Overall, I loved the episode. I’m in the Philippines, so I guess I’m not exposed to the hype. I thought it was a good continuation from last week. Gave a lot of reveals, but as usual brought about more questions.
1) Why is Richard Alpert all nice and tidy with his button down shirt and slacks in 1954, but appears so disheveled when he appears to Ben in the 1970s?
2) How does Widmore go from being an on-island other to this apparently sinister weathy industrialist off-island. I’m beginning to think the race around the world really was a way to find the island (just like the really Henry Gale, the Kahana).
3) What are the rules that Ben & Widmore talked about? Since we now know that Widmore is from or was on the Island, does this change anything about that conversation?
4) Just what the hell is the Smoke Monster? =)
Can’t wait for the podcast Ryan & Jen. And I definitely can’t wait for the next LOST episode.
Mahalo & Mabuhay!
January 30th, 2009 at 3:19 am
Just some further thoughts:
1) I’m really bugged about the US Army finding the Island. Was the Island easy to find in times past or wasn’t it? The Army found it. DHARMA found it. Yet it’s become hard to find as well, Widmore’s spent 20 years. Ben & the O6 apparently can’t just go back to it.
2) I’ve gone back and watched Charles Widmore’s Scenes in “Jughead” “Because You Left” and “The Shape of Things to Come”
-Supposedly, the last time Widmore saw Desmond was in that scene where Desmond got out of prison. Desmond leaves for the sailing race (presumably Widmore knew Desmond was in the race since he sponsored it), gets trapped on the Island. Penny spends years looking for Desmond. Now Widmore hasn’t seen Penny in 3 years. He hasn’t seen Desmond in even longer. Yet there he is, cool as a cucumber when Desmond walks into his office. He acts as he’s known Desmond has been alive all these years and has been with Penny the last 3.
-Did Widmore previously know that his people on the freighter found the Island? Because if he didn’t he found out by either: 1) Ben telling him that his daughter (Alex) was killed, or 2) Desmond saying that he knew about Daniel Faraday.
-Again, Charles acts so nonchalant when Ben says that Charles killed Alex. It’s as if Charles already knew what happened. In the 3 years since Alex was killed to 2007, how did Widmore get this information?
-In “The Shape of Things to Come”, Charles says, “That Island is mine Benjamin, it always was, it will be again.” How can we reconcile this statement with Charles’ appearance in Jughead? His younger self has referred to the Island as “our island” (as has Elie). But how can it be HIS Island when obviously he’s not as high ranking as Richard?
-How does Ben get into the picture? What is the rank order between/among Ben, Charles, & Richard (or Locke for that matter).
I have to say, I love Season 5 so far. It’s been just a non-stop roller coaster ride and there’s been substantially less filler than in previous years. Nearly everything that’s happened has or potentially has a great bearing on the storyline or mythology of LOST.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:24 am
I have the feeling that Widmore knows the outcome of a lot of events in advance. It may be how he amassed his fortune. I believe he is firmly entrenched on the side of not caring about “the rules”, is somehow able to mess with the timeline and does so regularly. Or at least, he did when he was in control of the island.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:33 am
And why didn’t the US Gov’t mount a huge recovery operation for the lost Jughead? It’s not like H-Bombs were a dime a dozen in 1954 (or even now for that matter). Whenever the US Military has lost a nuclear device, huge operations were mounted (Google the Palomares H-Bomb Incident).
Did the military ever try to get it back? Or were they unable to? Does this go back to how hard or easy it is to find the Island. Again, this goes back to how the US Army was able to find the Island in the first place.
And why the Army? The bomb looked like an air dropped bomb (shape & tail fins), not an artillery shell. Wouldn’t it be the Air Force in charge or handling and securing the bomb?
Lastly Popular Mechanics has a nice article on the science of H-Bombs/Jughead in the latest episode (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4301690.html). Interesting points their nuclear weapons expert brings up.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:33 am
Hi Ryan and Jen,
I just wanted to post a comment about how much I loved this episode. This episode encapsulated all that I love about this show. The exciting reveal of young Widmore on the island, the intriguing new twist about Faraday’s comatose ex-girlfriend, the heart-pumping reveal of a giant H-bomb, and the overwhelming, but not schlocky, moment at the reveal of Desmond’s son’s name: Charlie. I gasped audibly at least 3 times, and burst into tears at that “Charlie” moment, which was so beautiful to me. This is definitely my favorite episode since Flashes Before Your Eyes. What is it about Desmond episodes that just get me all worked up??? Love the show, look forward to it every week.
Yours,
Julie from Chicago
January 30th, 2009 at 3:36 am
Dave,
I’m not sure if I have an opinion yet on whether or not the LOSTies have unintentionally “created” the entire situation but I will try and elaborate on what I said about JACOB.
Here is a modification of what I think I might be trying to say. What if at some point in the storyline we see Locke and he is still trying to save the island and the only way he can get whatever he needs is to say that he is JACOB? Or what if he can’t say his real name because the message he needs to deliver is to people who would not believe him. Would Jack in season 1 really listen to Locke saying he’s from the future?
My main theory here is that with the time travel element and the way the LOSTies must appear “enlightened” to the people on the island there is a possibility that JACOB is an idea, or a type of fake name to be used. I mean think about it, we never clearly see JACOB, he moves around and disappears (or is uncontrollably time traveling), and he knows what needs to happen next. Sounds like John Locke two episodes into season 5 doesn’t it?
Of course this is just a theory, I love this show! =)
January 30th, 2009 at 6:40 am
There were some screen caps of Jacob in the past that looked a LOT like Locke. I’m really intrigued by this idea. It’s kinda Donnie Darko-esque as well. I have a friend who threw out the following idea (his words):
“What if the Sawyer group, while they are time-bouncing, figures out… that flight 815 MUST crash on the island in order to stop the world from blowing up… and then they reunite with the O6, and formulate a plan to make themselves cross paths in the past, in such a way as to cause the “coincidence” of them all being on 815? And the final episode is all of them boarding the plane, with their future selves totally aware of it, but their past selves (and us viewers for 6 years!) totally oblivious and thinking it all a coincidence!”
[Eric, if you're reading this, this is all you.]
January 30th, 2009 at 6:42 am
Perhaps the reason Leonard Simms and Sam Toomey were working at a naval listening post was to try to locate the island to recover the H-Bomb.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:30 am
Loved, loved, loved this episode! I put this one at least equal to “The Constant” personally because its partly a Desmond episode but it is also chock full of new faces and new ideas and partial explanations without relying on the O6 at all. I love me some Hurley but this was a breath of fresh air I thought.
I haven’t had time to read all the posts but a couple things to consider. First, in your podcast you mention Sawyer calling Charlotte Ginger as a Gilligan’s Island reference. While it may be, it may simply be a reference to her red hair.
My pet theory of the week – 4 Toed Statue = John Locke = Jacob. Has anyone gotten a good look at his bare feet? Hmmmm. Anyway, just basing this on the time loop theory and Daniel’s comment that another flash could come “in 5 minutes, or 5,000 years”. In my mind that is opening up the possibility that Locke has been involved with this Island for a very long time. Could he have flashed back 5,000 years to lead the original island inhabitants?
As for Locke=Jacob, he’s the only character “on the island” that we haven’t really seen yet. And the way Locke seems to be most intimately tied to the time flashes on the island it could be a possibility. Nothing solid really to back it up but a hunch.
And speaking of time flashes, where will “Adam and Eve” fit into this? Could they literally be the island’s Adam and Eve? After this episode it seems to be more of a realistic possibility. Here is a excerpt from an EW weekly interview with Cuse and Lindeldof. What do you guys think?
“What is the meaning or significance of the two skeletons that Jack and Kate found in the cave of season 1?
CUSE: The answer to that question goes to the nature of the timeline of the island. We don’t want to say too much about it, but there are a couple Easter eggs embedded in [the Feb. 7 episode], one of which is an anagram that actually sheds some light on the skeletons and hints at a larger mythological mystery that will start to unfold later in the season.
LINDELOF: There were certain things we knew from the very beginning. Independent of ever knowing when the end was going to be, we knew what it was going to be, and we wanted to start setting it up as early as season 1, or else people would think that we were making it up as we were going along. So the skeletons are the living — or, I guess, slowly decomposing — proof of that. When all is said and done, people are going to point to the skeletons and say, ”That is proof that from the very beginning, they always knew that they were going to do this.””
January 30th, 2009 at 7:46 am
“1) Why is Richard Alpert all nice and tidy with his button down shirt and slacks in 1954, but appears so disheveled when he appears to Ben in the 1970s?”
Manilaraf,
I think that Dharma showed up on t he island in the 1960s with considerably more resources and firepower and put the hostiles on the run. Maybe DHARMA had access to classified military information about how they’d sent troops the island and most (if any!) never returned! Maybe DHARMA was originally sent partially under the guise of testing some sort of radiation effects or something….
January 30th, 2009 at 7:55 am
I don’t think this episode had the *umph* of The Constant or any of the very first episodes, but boy did it give me crazy dreams! It was a good one, for sure.
*
I am still sort of sticking to my theory of Jacob being some sort of failed science experiement (a la Dr. Manhattan in the Watchmen), but then– on the other hand– with Richard Alpert (oh how I love Nestor Carbonell!) being so freshface and immortal and all, I am also leaning more and more to Jacob just being a supernatural force.
*
With Daniel most likely being Ellie’s son, and theories going around that maybe Miles is Pierre Chang’s son, I’m really curious whether this is going to emerge into a Watchman sort of thing where the second generation of superheroes have to team up with their aging super-hero parents to set things right. That, however, bares the question of who amongst our remaining freighties and fusies are part of that deal? Are Jack, Sawyer, Hugo, Sayeed, Kate, and Sun all the offspring of island babies? If this is the case maybe that explains why certain people were no longer of use to the island and thus killed/allowed to die (Annamaria, Eko, Charlie, Michael, and so on)….However, I gotta say that if this is the case than GEEZ these people need to work on their lines of communication with their parents. That is a huge whopper for their parents to conveniently forget to mention!
January 30th, 2009 at 7:58 am
@Rizzo – Maybe all our most important (Gotta go back!) Losties are descendants of the island’s Adam and Eve? Maybe Jacob is an amalgam of those two and has unfinished business that his descendants must resolve? I am so intrigued to see how that all gets explained.
January 30th, 2009 at 8:03 am
I’m also curious, have we stopped dealing with questions of the island’s location? Has that already been answered? I was of the opinion that it moved, but two things made me think South Pacific , in this episode: Daniel’s mention of testing in the South Pacific and then, of course, Penny giving birth off the coast of the Phillipines. I think the Oceanic 6 also shored up in an Indonesia-looking place. What’s the deal? I know that the location is the least of the freightie and fusies (what should we call this combined group? freighsies? futies?) concern, but when the island moves through time does it always stay in (relatively the same) place? does it matter? does anyone still wanna get off? i havent heard any mention of it in all three episodes. only people who wanna get back on…
January 30th, 2009 at 8:06 am
First time poster here!
I’m on board with those that think that Ellie=Mrs. Hawking=Faraday’s mother. My logic? Well, first off, Faraday tells Desmond to go to Oxford to find his mother. So it’s not a stretch to think that his mom might be English, even though Faraday himself doesn’t have an accent. Also, it’s revealed that Mrs. Hawking is very science minded, which Faraday certainly is (plus, the fact that her last name is Hawking…an homage to one of the greatest scientific minds known to man). Finally, Widmore tells Desmond that Faraday’s mother is in Los Angeles; it’s a pretty safe assumption that’s where her underground Dharma-esque station is when she meets Ben.
As far as Ellie, Faraday obviously recognizes her – he even tells her as much when they’re walking toward the bomb. She is English, and wears her hair in a style very similar to Mrs. Hawking. Also, I seem to recall someone calling her at one point, not Ellie, but Eloise. And lastly, in the “pop-up” reshowing of last week’s episode on ABC, they refer to Mrs. Hawking as Eloise Hawking.
So I could be off base here. But at this point, connecting all the dots on LOST isn’t yet an exact science
January 30th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Hi guys….
Well, you do have the touch of us fans. This episode certainly has taken away some of the skepticism. I know that the creators would not desert us….
Well the episode is excellent and the creators once again prove how confident they really are. I mean c’mon, Oceanic Six and Ben are nowhere to be seen and I must say that I have not missed them much with so much revealed.
Of course I have a myriad questions. These are in random order:
Is Daniel’s Theresa the same as Boone’s Theresa?
The time skipping occurred only once but I am a bit confused, Let me give you an example, Widmore Jr. meets old man Locke in 1954, so does that mean that Widmore Sr. knows all about Locke in the present day? I reckon so and if he does, what did he have to do with the actual crash?
If Dan was sponsored by Widmore all along, Widmore must have known about Des’ role in the grand scheme of things. So his motivation to be nasty to Des was in great part to push Des to take the path that fate (or the future?) intended?
So Widmore, Richard, etc. are all Others (and they are supposed to be the good guys) so who are the bad guys? Are the bad guys all the different people that come onto the island?
A lot of different tests were done in the Pacific from both Americans and French (I am not sure to what extend the Brits were also involved). What about Rousseau? Was she and her group of French scientists also involved in similar tests?
What about Juliet, is she an Other, what else is she hiding? She seems to be full of surprises.
What is happening to all the people that are dying on either side if -as Dan claims- the future or past cannot be changed will the people that died wake up and we will get the much promised Zombie season?
So is Ginger dead? If she died in the past how come she also in the future and why is she the only one dying?
So many extras have been killed, I guess the only others left is Rose and Bernie the Dentist.
Des knows Dan’s mother and he has not realized it yet, I believe that when he sees her he will know that he was used and manipulated to do whatever it is that he is supposed to do.
By the way when did Dan really knock on the Hatch? Des was never really alone for the three years he spend in the hatch but for about 40 days between the crash and the Locke’s discovery.
Richard new about Dan and his bomb? Is there more to Dan that meets the eye?
How old is Richard?
Why do they speak Latin, is because they want to show off to about 11million viewers on a cold Wednesday evening in Jan 09 or is it because they are descendants of people that have used that language throughout the millenia.
How did Widmore get off the island?
If the American military was on the island, with all their training and material, would they actually be stopped by a bunch of islanders forgotten in time?
Where is Tom? Shouldn’t we see Tom in sometime in all this?
Ok, one more observation before I stop -as this list could be endless- if these Others are the original inhabitants of the island why are they all Americans and Brits? An ancient civilization in the middle of the South Pacific is a far as possible in any which way from the Anglo-Saxon world.
Well, you guys are as always amazing, you are so active with all the things going on that I must sincerely thank you for taking the time to organize this. You do add so much to the show that J.J, Damon and Carlton need to come up with something nice for you.
Be well….
Ilias
January 30th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Can anyone translate what Juliette said to Widmore and Cunningham in Latin?
Also, when Ellie asks Daniel “Are they from the future, too?” Sawyer says, “What, did you tell her?”
Why would Sawyer have any reason to assume (know?) that they are in the past? And why would he be disturbed if Daniel disclosed this fact to Ellie?
January 30th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Buried bomb
If someone buried a bomb in concrete and you found it and could not resist the rather stupid urge to then build a DHARMA station right up against it, what kind of station would you build? a) one that, in the future, also exhibits strong electromagnetic properties, has a button that if not pressed will cause the place to shake uncontrollably and project everything in it through the air with amazing force, and has a fail-safe that allows/causes it to explode, or b) one related to energy that will, in the future, cause radioactive damage to some hands, maybe Goodwin’s, and need to be deactivated by someone who truly understands the threat, like maybe Daniel and Charlotte?
Neither’s a good idea, but come on! Build the SWAN right next to a bomb? Seriously? That’s a new kind of stupid, if you ask me. We know DHARMA has imaging devices as evidenced by the printout of the FDW the foreman showed Pierre Chang/candle-related-name-guy. Are you telling me no one in DHARMA said, “Hey, there’s a huge preexisting wall of concrete here. Perhaps we should investigate this further. ***pause for imaging*** Oh, look! The distinct shape of a bomb. My, my. Let’s not build our very sensitive station smack dab up against it.”
Annie
What happened to her? Could she be a descendent of Ellie and perhaps be Faraday’s mother? I’m having a lot of trouble determining how old some of these people are supposed to be, particularly Mrs. Hawking, Faraday, and the young Widmore and the Ellie we saw in “Jughead.” I’m not really sure how Annie being Faraday’s mother would work, as Annie was in DHARMA’s fold and Ellie does not seem to be. I guess I am grasping at straws, but it would insert another generation (on an admittedly tight timeline), and I’m going to be so disappointed if Hawking is Faraday’s mother. It was such an easy connection with the name, the hair style, and her presence in LA/address from Widmore. I’d really like it if it weren’t so connect-the-dots. Don’t get me wrong, I was thrilled when I connected the names Eloise and Ellie, but still…It just feels to simple, too easy, and LOST is normally such a smart show.
Polar Bears
And, it got me thinking about the secret chamber in Ben’s closet…
I love that idea about them turning the wheel. It left me wondering how polar bears could have gained access to the chamber the wheel is in, and I then wondered about the ladder Ben when down, the pillar with the symbols, and the hatch of ice Ben broke to access the wheel itself. Obviously there is (or will be) another way to get to it besides melting drill bits. Clever thinking, and kudos to the original poster of that theory. It thrilled me.
Enough. Time to go mop up my exploded brain. For a little thing, it made quite a mess.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Here’s a thought I had while trying to fall asleep after watching Jughead:
We’ve heard over and over again that “you can’t change the past”. Fate is fate. “if it didn’t happen, it can’t happen” Our heroes cannot change the past, or what for them is the past. But what if they can change the FUTURE. Or what for them is the future. What if during one of these time shifts, they shift into a future where something terrible has happened, like jughead blowing up and destroying the island, or the world. They then time shift back to the present and/or past and are now the variable that can prevent jughead from blowing up.
At any rate, the introduction of jughead is ominous for the future of the show. We’ve twice heard characters use the phrase, “God help us all”. First from Pierre Chang in reference to the danger of drilling too close to the frozen donkey wheel, and then from Mrs. Hawking when talking about the 70 hour “event window” deadline by which Ben needs to round up the Oceanic 6. Could “God help us all” be in reference to jughead?
January 30th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Just a little thought on the compass. At first this was troubling me as it seemed like a paradox but ive sat here thinking about it till my brain hurts and this is what ive come up with.
so if we asume that richard originaly owned the compass which he gave to locke. when locke goes back and give richard the compass he would now own two. 50 years later he will then give one back to locke and so on and so forth. rather than creating a paradox or an infinite number of compasses this would just produce a sort of a clone (bad twin?) of the first one which is pasted back and forth between the two of them.
This makes me think of the orchid and the number 8 bunny (don’t let them touch) as im sure this would cause some real messed up stuff.
hope that makes a little bit of sense. loving lost right now, soo glad its back!
January 30th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Saw this pointed out on another LOST site, but has anyone seen the Season 5 Promo picture of the Cast? The one where they’re inside a building, outside the windows looks to be a city, but the room they’re in has a dirt floor, foliage, and various Dharma gear?
Anyone notice that Daniel Faraday’s left foot is missing?
I wonder if the same people that made the Battlestar Galactica “Last Supper” photo made this one as well.
Is this a clue or shoddy Photoshop work?
January 30th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Theory # 1: It seems like the quick shots we got of Mrs. Hawking last week showed many xxx’s on a map of the world where the pendulum was swinging and chalking the map…so I think the island actaully is moving through not only time, but space or locations as well. It looked as if there were some probabilities that they were working to determine when and where it would be. This would explain how it is harder to find because it could be anywhere after it has moved. Plus the fact that they were to ‘move’ the island. I guess no matter where it is it’s likely that it’s ’sheild’ or the area around it would be succeptable to causing disturbances of time, nausea, etc. which would make even finding or seeing it very hard to get to.
Theory # 2
What if Halliwax/Chang/ baby is actually Mr. Paik?
Wacky Theory # 3
Richard is of alien descent, as is the ‘island’….more on this as it develops..
Semi-Wacky Theory # 4
It’s Sawyer’s hurt-foot. The island eventually goes back far into the past and to save his own skin he ‘cons’ the inhabitants that he is a God using Juliet as a translator to Latin…and then ‘whooosh’ he’s gone.
Theory # 5 ( similar to some people’s above )
Young Widmore will begin to learn some of the island’s secrets…probably from Richard who knows everything. During this time he will find that being on the island offers wonderful benefits to health and life, however the only drawback to being on the island is that women cannot get pregnant. Richard explains that It’s the price you pay for ‘immortality’. Widmore is hard-headed and will decide to try and save his people that he will leave the island and enter the ‘real world’ where he will use his knowledge of the future and to create a company. Richard allows him to leave and he knows exactly where the island is at this time and how to get to and from the island from Richard. He quickly becomes wealthy. Besides working on ‘Widmore Labs Pregnancy Test Kits’ and other items he creates the DHARMA initiative. The main purpose of DHARMA is to study the island’s other properties and to exploit them for his people’s needs. Richard & perhaps some other island natives are upset that Widmore would exploit the island for matters other than pregnancy and this causes a falling out. Widmore should not have betrayed the rules of the island. However, with his money and power by now the DHARMA intiative takes control from Richard and those left on the island and they are forced back into the wilderness.
Enter Benjamin Linus. During his childhood Richard contacts Ben in the jungle. He tells Ben he is special and will one day lead them ( now known as the “Hostiles”, through a great DHARMA PR campaign, to greatness. Richard and his people ( including Jacob ) like to have a young leader they can train to let go of the urge to exploit the sacred island.
Ben grows up believing he is one of the good-guys and at some point after the ‘purge’ of DHARMA ( Widmore ) or anyone that Ben thought was a threat, he has a Polar Bear move the island to a new location.
Widmore cannot find the island now that is has moved, but re-organizes, hunts for clues and memorabilia like the Black Rock journal and has Penny.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I understand the temptation to think that Dharma trained polar bears to turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel (FDW), but what is the logic behind that other than that 1) they were using the bears for *SOMETHING* and 2) polar bears come from an arctic climate and the FDW seems to be encased in a cold atmosphere?
Polar bears are seriously nasty. We have all kinds of bears up here in Alaska and general wisdom is that of all the bears you don’t want to encounter, the polar bear is at the top of the list. While other bears will generally avoid humans, polar bears have been known to hunt them down.
So why not choose a more amiable animal to turn the FDW, maybe even a donkey! A horse, an ox, maybe even a large ape would make more sense. That being said, I don’t have a theory about what the polar bears were being used for, so I guess being trained to turn the FDW makes as much sense as anything else on Lost.
January 31st, 2009 at 5:53 am
I went back and skimmed through The Brig & Man Behind the Curtain:
-Remember the scene where Alpert gives the file on Sawyer to Locke? He says to Locke “We haven’t been properly introduced.” Kinda funny now, looking back on it, with all we know now.
-Alpert running into Young Ben in the Jungle. Alpert’s interest in Ben is piqued when Ben mentions having visions of his mother who had died off the island when he was a baby. Was Ben’s mom an old Island resident? Or is the fact that Ben has visions is what draws Richard’s attention? By this time, Alpert’s been disappointed by Locke’s choosing the knife and Locke’s not wanting to work with Mittelos Labs/Dr Alpert as a teen. Perhaps this is why he was drawn to Ben instead?
-Ben & Locke & Widmore. What is it about the 3 that draws them to the Island?
-I wouldn’t be surprised if by the end of Season 5, we find out that Christian Sheppard is also an Other/Hostile and is a 4th member in competition with Ben/Locke/Widmore. I feel that there’s a link there that has yet to be revealed. Christian speaks for Jacob now. In the recent past Jacob only spoke to Ben. And Alpert was below the chain of command under Jacob. Makes you wonder where the Widmore-Jacob link is and what it entails. Did Widmore anger Jacob and thus was forced to leave the Island?
-First there’s the Poison Gas (Chemical Weapons) in the Tempest. Now the Nuke/Jughead. All you need are Biological Weapons to complete the NBC triad.
January 31st, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I believe Desmond purposely paused when the Oxford clerk asked him when he visited because it struck him as an odd questions to ask if there was no record of Faraday in their system. He may have realized it could be a potential trap by someone observing anyone asking for information on Faraday after what happened so that they could try and get some answers from him about Faraday who booked it after the incident with Theresa. I subscribe to the theory that there are no subtle coincidences on LOST, every pause, every word of each line, its all meticulously planned out!
February 1st, 2009 at 9:13 am
Very beautiful episode.It is very exiting that Claire is not with us anymore.
I think Daniel Faraday knew that Cherlote was diing.I think she is going to die.Yes I also think that Christian is (ot was) one of the “others”.
THANK YOU LOST…
but my favorite episode is from season 4 “the constant”
February 1st, 2009 at 10:24 am
God deam it!!
very beautiful comments..
Thank you all everybody and perhaps I think that this season will be better then the rest of LOST seasons…
THANK YOU ALLL…
I am dying… oh… help me….
“se you in other life brotha”
February 1st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
There were a couple of things that stuck out to me:
1. Locke created his own prophecy by telling Richard he is their future leader. I’d be intrigued if some guy shows up, knows my name, who Jacob is and then goes ‘POOF’ the next minute. Then that guy shows up in a plane crash some 50 years later thus fulfilling the false prophesy! Maybe that is why Richard visits adolencant Locke, gives him the test and when he fails he realizes he has been waiting for the wrong person for 50 years.
2. Charles Widmore pauses and calls Desmond a ‘Colleague’ in their confrontation. I still think that Widmore has been leading Desmond every step of the way which is why they are colleagues and I have no doubt he would sacrifice his daughters life to get what he wants. You saw how insane with rage the man was as a kid on the island. Plus Desmond time and time again ends up at his side and Widmore casually gives him a name/number/location to use next. The devil is in the details no?
So what do you guys think? Love this show and love your podcasts!! Keep up the great work.
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:45 am
RE: DaveW’s comments
The more I think about it, the more I think Widmore is manipulating Des to do exactly what he wants. I’m guessing he’s a bit of a master manipulator – much like Ben.
February 2nd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Very cool how Miles can get his info from the dead just by walking over their bodies. I’m still waiting for Miles to walk over Palo and Nikki’s graves. That would be an interesting moment.
I’m probably way behind on this one but I’ve been watching reruns and didn’t realize that Elizabeth Mitchell was in Frequency (a great movie about time shifting) along with Shawn Doyle (Jack Shepard from Eggtown) and her name was Julia. Very close to Juliet. She was also on a show called “Time of Your Life” and her character’s last name was Holloway. Very interesting.
One more tidbit that I grossly overlooked until reruns. When Boone is calling for help in the crashed plane, he says he is a survivor of 815. The static voice on the other side says “There are no survivors of 815.” That one gave me chills seeing it was all the way back to season one.
February 2nd, 2009 at 4:33 pm
If Faraday’s Theresa is “Theresa falls up the stairs. Theresa falls down the stairs.” And her mind is constantly jumping through time.
I wonder if she is falling up and down the “stairs” or up and down “Jacob’s ladder.”
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Hey Jen and Ryan,
I’m a huge fan of yours.
I’m writing about something that I haven’t heard anyone else speak of. I think I can successfully predict (well, within a few seconds) when a time flash will occur. The flashes are not random. The last 4 flashes have happened just after some major piece of information was given from one character to another.
1. Locke to Ethan – “Ben Linus appointed me as your leader”.
2. Richard to Locke – “You’re going to have to die, John”.
3. Faraday to Desmond – “I need you to go back to Oxford and find my Mother”.
4. Locke to Richard – “I suggest you come visit me for my birth”.
My theory is that that is why the people off the island must come back. They have to give important information to someone else on the island in order to “make things right” or to make a time line correct (or something like that).
Thanks for the great podcast. -Chris
February 3rd, 2009 at 4:46 am
Hey everybody.
yes Chris it was fantastic…
I also thought that it was happining just after some information was given to each other…
I think Sun is about to kill Ben and thats why Im thinkin that she is going to die (after they return to the Ireland).
Yes mr.Widmore is Faradays father I think…lol
cant wait till next 4th episode…
February 3rd, 2009 at 10:07 am
My latest theory is tied to the series title itself. Lost could refer not to being stranded on the island, but to the fact that each of the Oceanic 6 has “lost” someone who is dead on the island, and to be reunited they must return (to a previous time perhaps?).
Sayid lost Shannon…
Hurley lost Libby…
Sun (and her baby) lost Jin…
Aaron lost Claire…
Jack lost his father…
Kate lost … oops – looks like Sawyer has to die!!! Season 5 finale perhaps?
February 4th, 2009 at 8:57 am
The island is paradise, Jacob is God, the skeletons are Adam & Eve, the hostiles are the devil, the others are the descendants of Adam & Eve. They did not want the “good people”, they wanted the offspring of the island others…
February 5th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
A thought on the introduction of a freaking Hydrogen bomb into a series with no wasted footage:
Hitchcock’s theory (from an article by Alfred Hitchcock that appeared in the book, ‘Heard in the Wings’ which was edited by Roderick Bloomfield and published by Stanley Paul in 1971 and http://www.on-cue.org.uk/articles16.html for a longer clip of the article):
“The bomb ticks away and we keep telling the audience there’s a minute to go; half a minute and finally ten seconds. That is when it must not go off. If we let it go off, the audience will be as mad as hell with us, they’ll be disgusted. They’ll say, “Don’t go and see that movie or that play”.
Your toe MUST touch the bomb at the last minute, you must look under the table, grab the bomb and throw it out of the window, then it can go off; but you and I must be saved. An audience needs that relief after you’ve put them through the ringer.”
February 6th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
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