Trans 2010-03-03: “Sundown” (Episode 6-06)

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“Sayid is faced with a difficult decision, and Claire sends a warning to the temple inhabitants.” Instead of our regular blog post, this week we posted a “Shortwave Transmission” initial reactions podcast, as Ryan will soon be off the island. We include some calls from the LOSTLine, as well as the latest track from The Others LOST Band. We’re hoping “You All Everybody” can keep the conversation going on the blog. What did you think of “Sundown”? We’d love your comments below!

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282 Responses to “Trans 2010-03-03: “Sundown” (Episode 6-06)”

  1. Russell from California says:

    just listened to the podcast. great show.

    jen, you’re idea about the “he can come in now” line referring to MIB having access to Dogen’s soul is brilliant!

  2. NailsOnChalkboard says:

    Ryan, please be aware that the word denouement is pronounced day-new-mon.

  3. Jen in Scotland says:

    Ok new theory:

    After reading some recaps of this season, I have drawn some interesting inferences. It has been frequently mentioned that Locke is like the Biblical serpent, tempting Eve to eat off of the Tree of Knowledge. I think that this is close, but not quite. Remember that there were TWO trees in the Garden of Eden: the tree of Knowledge (Eve’s)…and the Tree of Life.

    I think that the Man in Black represents the Tree of Knowledge, while Jacob represents the Tree of Life. Think about it. The Man in Black is all about the pursuit of truth. He told Claire that he always keeps his word. He’s promised several characters to tell them the truth about why they’re on the Island. He told Ben the truth about wanting to kill Jacob.

    Then there is Jacob and the Tree of Life. Everything about Jacob suggests reincarnation and life. He brought back Dogan’s son and Juliet’s sister. His pool brings people back to life (such as Ben). Richard is never-aging. Remember the van whose anagram spelled “Reincarnation?” That probably had something to do with Jacob. Perhaps we now also have the mystery of Mikhail’s three lives solved.

    After eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve were banned from Eden and could not eat from the Tree of Life (which was not banned in the first place). In addition, Eve was given the curse that women would have pain and suffering in childbearing (sound familiar?).

    Today, according to Christan theology, God has given man a second chance at eating from the Tree of Life: by following the gospel of Jesus Christ. When Christ comes back to Earth at Armageddon, Satan will be cast down and the Tree of Life replanted.

    So…I don’t really know where I’m going with this, but the dualism between life and knowledge seemed too significant to ignore. I also remember from my Hebrew Bible class freshman year that the Bible does not state that the attainment of knowledge from the tree was a bad thing. Indeed, some interpret it as the moment that mankind was born, and was obtained our knowledge that separates us from all other living things. Perhaps LOST is exploring this same dichotomy…life, innocence, and ignorance vs. sin, death, and knowledge. I may be very far off, but it’s food for thought.

  4. greenberry says:

    Re: Getting “answers” — my mind keeps going back to the Kimmel interview, where D & C said the questions that would be answered by the final thud are the ones that the Losties themselves are concerned about…

    I am trying to remember what those questions are — “Who are you people?” comes to mind — Jack and Kate and Sawyer have probably asked the majority throughout the series…

    I would love some reminders, from you astute fans, of what the main questions are from the Losties’ perspectives as opposed to us viewers — since I do not have the time presently to rewatch all the episodes

  5. Carol from Boston says:

    @greenberry – some of the questions

    1. Where is the island?
    2. Why were the losties brought to the island?
    3. Importance of Desmond
    4. Widmore’s role
    5. Christian
    6. Why Richard doesn’t age.
    7. What are Jacob and MIB fighting about?
    8. What are the powers of the island and where do they come from?
    9. Why can’t the woman on the island have children?
    10. How does the island heal?

  6. CFC says:

    Some Points:

    – Kate was told by Jack that Claire wasn’t at the Temple, that he didn’t know where she was but that the Temple people knew about her. So she probably went back to the Temple to get info/question them. Which does make sense.

    -But… yes, the Kate comments to Claire were stupid. “I took your son after you abandoned him in the jungle… etc. would’ve been smarter. But the Miles comments to Kate about Claire sounded stupid too.

    – I actually didn’t like this epi much; would like to see the characters having more interaction WITH each other, rather than spewing exposition at each other. And yes, the alterna flash sideways took too long and didn’t do much. Stupid comments from the kids, etc.

    – Jack smashed the Lighthouse mirrors with a spyglass much like the amulet on Dogen’s necklace.

    – Jacob poured something from a small vial into the Temple Pool in the Lighthouse before he gave instructions to Hurley. What will this mean, if anything, for Dogen & Lennon?

  7. greenberry says:

    Thank-you Carol!! Now we will have to hold D & C to at least those!! I guess the big over-arching issue is “destiny” — as in having a purpose for returning to the island, and in being healed and ultimately whole and found.

  8. LOSTstarfish says:

    Ryan and Jen. We e-mailed this to you separately but realized that it may be rather long and in depth to be covered ‘on-air.’ We are posting it here as well so others can comment as well.

    Please note that this is a string of theories that comprise one large mega theory. It is based on the following points, though we encourage you read the full explanation for better clarification.

    1. If Jacob and Anti-Jacob are supposed to embody two opposing forces, white and black, yin and yang, it is possible that we are dealing with the same person.
    2. Jacob and Anti-Jacob cannot kill eachother nor can they directly kill a candidate.
    3. Candidates can kill each other.
    4. Anti-Jacob willingly came to the island as a sacrifice to save someone he loved.
    5. Jacob is eternal as he has imbued Anti-Jacob and others with his power.
    6. Jacob is able to manipulate things on the island via Hurley and those loyal to him whom have been imbued with his power.
    7. Jacob is looking for Anti-Jacob’s replacement, not his own.
    8. Jacob will reincarnate himself through one of his loyal followers.

    Explanation

    Buddhist and Shinto divinities are at both times maliciously evil and benevolently good. As most viewers grew up under Western ideologies, it is natural for many people to want to apply good or evil to the players when that is not the case at all. LOST has historically borrowed heavily from Eastern ideologies, wherein there is no strict schism between the ideas of good and evil. These religions also have many deities that are assigned to specific areas or set specific tasks.

    As such you have Jacob, all powerful immortal who has both good and evil traits. It may also be safe to assume that Jacob is a lesser entity in charge of just the island, which would be in line with Eastern ideologies. The blonde boy with bloody hands that anti-Jacob sees in the jungle may be his boss or just another rung up the ladder, as in Stephen King’s Insomnia.

    Jacob may have made an offer of sorts, similar to that of Juliet and Dogen, to Anti-Jacob by offering to save the life of someone whom Anti-Jacob loved. The terms may have been that in return Anti-Jacob must come to his island to work and never see the person he is saving. As we know this occurred with Juliet’s sister and Dogen’s son. It may also be safe to assume that Jacob himself was given an offer much like this by a higher power thus his attachment to the island. Nevertheless, more than likely Anti-Jacob agreed, and as Juliet & Dogen before him he received a very specific job. He was assigned as the island’s protector, or rather the muscle to protect it. To better facilitate this purpose Jacob splits off the darker part of his power (as a benevolent being), and infuses Anti-Jacob with it thus allowing the man to become an immortal. Anti-Jacob then exists to keep the island safe as “Cereberus,” while Jacob brings people to the island to act as its caregivers, much like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    Over time Anti-Jacob begins to tire of this arrangement, and wants to leave the island and go home, but he cannot as he is now tied to the island. He begins to think that in killing Jacob he will become free, but does not realize that Jacob’s spirit cannot die.

    But why would Jacob have an evil side that is seemingly working against him…why would he give someone that power?

    Anti-Jacob may well have been truly agreeable and willing to Jacob’s terms in the beginning, but much like Juliet, may have tired and wanted to go home. When Anti-Jacob was initially a man he may have been the first true infection. Having so much dark energy within him may have permanently contaminated his soul thus truly creating the polar contrast to Jacob. The bloody blonde boy told Anti-Jacob, “You know the rules, you can’t kill him.” Perhaps in a nod to Harry Potter, neither can die while the other one lives. The only way Anti-Jacob can kill Jacob would be to kill himself somehow in the process. This would also explain why Jacob is still walking around the island manipulating things via Hurley. His spirit has not been destroyed, and eventually will find another body to inhabit thus continuing the infinite time cycle or the concept of the Shen Ring. The Shen ring is an ancient Egyptian symbol of eternity and protection.

    Since we cannot trust Anti-Jacob the candidates may be for his replacement, and not for Jacob’s as he states.

    Jacob may be able to transfer power from one willing person to the next. An ability reserved only for him since it is his own power that he’s using. Anti-Jacob doesn’t like this idea because 1) he is powerful right now and 2) if that power is taken away what’s stopping Jacob or the new Anti-Jacob from killing him. Which would explain why Anti-Jacob is rounding up candidates. If they are already under his influence then perhaps Jacob cannot use them. Meaning if they have been infected then Jacob would be loathe transferring power to that person, he would be creating another person that hates him enough to want to kill him. If Anti-Jacob has been walking around taking the forms of certain people, aka Christian Shepherd, Alex Rousseau, Yemi, he may have been trying to find one that would garner the most followers or the followers he wanted. This may be why Anti-Jacob ultimately took the form of a candidate.

    Of all the candidates, Locke wanted to protect the island the most. He wanted to stay on the island the most. He would have been Jacob’s most willing successor to Anti-Jacob. Precisely the person Anti-Jacob would want under his control the most. Anti-Jacob had already attempted to kidnap Locke as early as the first season when he attempted to pull him underground. This failed when he got pulled out of the hole.

    There seem to be implied Rules of the Island that both Jacob & Anti-Jacob abide by. They seem to indicate that Jacob & Anti-Jacob cannot kill each other, and also that a candidate cannot be killed by them. This is implied by the blonde boy with bloody hands, and the fact that we have not seen Jacob or Anti-Jacob actually kill a candidate themselves though Anti-Jacob has attempted to do so indirectly. Anti-Jacob took the form of Dave in an attempt to convince Hurley to commit suicide by jumping off a cliff in season two. Besides this there seems to be nothing stopping candidates from killing each other. Shannon gets shot by Ana Lucia, Rutherford is listed in the Lighthouse and in the cave. Locke kills Naomi Dorrit who is suspected of being a name in the Lighthouse. Sawyer shoots Mr. Friendly after he surrenders. The list goes on. So Anti-Jacob could be rounding up candidates for the sole purpose of having a Battle Royale where they all kill each other while he just watches. The fear of the rules keeps anti-Jacob in line and keeps Jacob safe, hence why Jacob did not seem concerned about the discussion of a loophole; the rules would create the ultimate Catch-22.

    As Jacob’s spirit cannot be killed he may very well choose the body of someone we know to be reincarnated. I believe Richard or Dogen may be the next incarnation of Jacob. Both seem to have been given special abilities by Jacob. Richard is seemingly immortal and able to recognize peoples spirits (but he seemed oblivious to the fact that it was Anti-Jacob that helped him to heal real Locke after real Locke got shot) and Dogen was the force keeping Anti-Jacob out of the temple. Both seem to be traits of Jacob yet they are still mortal men. This theory make work like the horcruxes of Harry Potter, but in a less evil way. Adding strength to the Dogen theory, he did not seem to resist Sayid’s murder of him. The pool is not exceedingly deep, three feet at most. It would have been possible for Dogen to find his legs and counterattack Sayid given his extensive knowledge of martial arts. Dogen is the only character on LOST that has been able to best Sayid in hand-to-hand combat. Sayid had beaten countless others, including trained mercenary Keamy and military veteran Mikhail, the latter with only one good arm. Dogen seemed to have left his guard down and left himself vulnerable after telling the story of how he had come to the island, but it is unlikely that he would have unintentionally left himself in that situation without knowledge of another sacrifice he may have to make.

    Dogen, being the Temple Master and knowing about the candidates, knows that Jacob and Anti-Jacob cannot kill candidates. He knew Sayid was a candidate and purposefully set things in motion that would ensure Sayid would want to want to leave for the purpose he did. He attempted to have Jack poison him knowing that Jack would not go through with it but create doubt in Sayid. Then when Sayid eventually challenges him he can stage a fight which would then banish Sayid. Anti-Jacob arrives and he sends Sayid out to talk to him, thus ensuring his transformation would be complete, and then does not have him removed from the temple after Sayid delivered his message. Dogen’s seeming inability to kill candidates himself points to him being tied to the same rules as Jacob and Anti-Jacob. Perhaps those who share in Jacob’s power are limited to his rules. Plus Dogen making a sacrifice (again mind you) would allow another to live, Jacob. He was drown in Jacob’s pool of watery resurrection, and Jacob was seen fiddling near the water’s edge in “Lighthouse” when Hurley asked where the cafeteria was located. Two of the three characters drowned in that pool, Sayid and Ben (implied) have returned to life. It is safe to assume that Dogen himself will return to life.

    It may also not be outside the realm of possibility that, although Jacob only makes himself visible to Hurley, he may be able to speak to Dogen and Richard in other ways, such as in meditative visions. After all Richard never comes back to the temple when he was easily a day’s walk from it. He may have been tipped off by Jacob to stay away, likewise Dogen was informed that he would have to die. With the island being at the bottom of the sea in the flash sideways, perhaps that’s what would happen if Anti-Jacob kills both of himself and Jacob at the same time.

  9. Laura in NY says:

    Oh for goodness sake. I tried reading everything first and only got as far as 3/3 @ 1:44 pm, so forgive me if I repeat something.

    Someone on another blog thought that Sayid did not look in a mirror in this episode. Does anyone remember if he did? And if he didn’t, does that say something about the fact that he hasn’t changed as much as the other sideways characters?

    Also, I am loving a new crackpot theory. Maybe sideways Ben will turn out to be Alex’s (real) father, and the mother is Danielle. He could have met Danielle in France while completing his European history studies.

    And I’m sorry to say this to all Sayid fans, but it was over for me when he declared his love for Shannon. I thought that whole arc was totally unbelievable.

  10. Jesse says:

    Can I ask a question….where exactly is Flocke going at the end of the episode?

    what is there left for him to do?

  11. @Jesse And why does he need to gather an army to do it? Were Dogen and his people really so much of a threat that they needed to get the old Join or Die treatment?

  12. Kyle from Pittsburgh says:

    I love how the writers have been cracking open old cans of worms. Sayid’s plea to Dogen about being a “good man” reminds me of the story that we’ve been hearing from Ben, Mr. Friendly, Goodwin, etc. over the past few seasons.

    Just a few episodes ago, while Sayid lay dying in the temple, he expressed his regret for all of his past transgressions and was filled with self-loathing. Then, after his “rebirth,” he decides that he is a “good man” and is willing to aid in the extermination of the templars. Something smells fishy here. If we assume that Ben received the same “treatment” as a child, he may have been acting under the influence of whatever changed Sayid.

    It also brings the purge of the Dharma Initiative to mind. I wouldn’t be surprised if we found out that Ben had been tricked by the MiB into facilitating it. Maybe the MiB impersonated Ben’s mother?

  13. Yann From France says:

    @Laura: he looks at himself when waiting for Nadia to open the door… but is reflection is not “clean” since he is looking at a window.
    Genetically your Alex theory seems impossible… but maybe he found a single pregnant girl (a la Claire) that would really mirror their two stories.
    @Jesse: Sawyer and Jin back at the camp and then to leave
    @Mike… If he wants to go he will need something to go. A boat or something else. Maybe he will ask everyone to repair and carry the Black Rock to the beach. MIB leaving with the Black Rock! That would be pushing the “private joke” to the max (11).

  14. Yann From France says:

    For those wondering if MIB is “good”: he killed Eko not because he was a bad personne but because he was not manipulable… The proof come with Sayid. MIB is a bad guy who wants his will to come true and is ready to kill to do so.
    One question tho: Ben killed on MIB orders… just like Sayid. Has he been infected?
    Jacob said “they are coming”… he meant “the candidates”! And since Sun did not went back in time that makes Jin the Kwon.
    One question tho: why does Jacob keep everyone in the dark?
    Richard (whose purpose IS to look out for the next leader as a panchen-lama do) doesn’t know about the Candidates, Ben (who was the leader and should be telling Others what Jacob wanted) never seen him, and now Hugo doesn’t know why he brought him and Jack to the Lighthouse.

  15. Julie says:

    I keep thinking about how you mentioned in the podcast that Kate should have mentioned that Aaron is now with Claire’s mom, particularly because I’ve heard that sentiment from a few different places by now, but I can’t help thinking that that would have been a very bad idea. I feel like crazy Claire would have gotten even madder, accused her of lying because last she saw, her mom was in a coma with almost no chance of ever waking up – Kate probably would have reassured her that no, her mom woke up, but I doubt Claire would have believed that either. She’s not exactly reasonable right now. “You stole my baby AND you’re lying about my mom? You get an axe to the gut for that!”

  16. Josh says:

    At first I was siding with UnLocke because I really felt pity for him being stuck on the island and just “wanting to go home” (wherever home is for him), but this past episode has made me think otherwise.

    Ever since Faraday died at the hands of his mother, whom he was older than (tricky stuff right there), I’ve been looking for another character to make my favorite. Season 3 was Locke, Season 4 was Desmond, Season 5 was Faraday, and now Season 6 was Dogan. It seems as if I keep choosing people who will die or not be on the show again [Desmond] (but he better be back in some fashion (could he be the one who is coming to the island when Jacob told Hurley?).

    I am wondering though who was the kid that Sawyer and UnLocke saw and why couldn’t Richard Alpert see him? And is it the same entity that appeared before Locke in the grave full of DHARMA members, as Walt?

    @Kyle Ben didn’t suffer the same changes as did Sayid, because when Ben was taken to the spring, the water was clear. The water turned cloudy due to Jacob being killed, thus giving UnLocke full control of the power of the spring, since the spring wasn’t balanced with good & evil, it is complete evil. That’s my take on the spring anyway.

  17. I agree with some of the posts above. I’m finding *parts* of each episode beyond the season opener to be intriguing and classic-LOST mind-blowing and interesting. However, most of the time, I just feel “meh”.

    Enough with the good versus evil, two sides of the same coin. We get it. Enough with the cheesy, over-the-top lines (last week Hurley, this week Miles).

    There is something (I can’t pinpoint it) lacking in the mystery, the mythology, the story coming together. This is supposed to the be climax! The FINAL SEASON! The very best of the very best!

    Meh.

    Oh, and this week’s scenes with Kate and/or Kate and Miles. Some baaaad acting! C’mon LOST, you’ve got way more than this.

  18. P.S. Season Opener was fantastic! I want every episode to be that great.

  19. Yann From France says:

    @Julie: Claire’s mum never said she was in a coma, she said she was in the hospital. So Kate never knew the story about Claire’s mum… she could have said Aaron was with her. But she will have time to do so in next episodes, we are going to see Claire’s reaction to that…
    I am telling you right now… Charlie’s ring (and maybe the list if it’s still with her) is what is going to “wake her up”.
    And her bird is going to be on the last episode and the off Island losties will realise, when they learn about that on the news, why they have those “memories”.
    @Josh: I don’t know about the on Island… but definitively off Island he will have a great purpose!
    Seeing that the “Walt” appearence led John to knive Naomi (as John led Ben to knive Jacob, or Sayid with Dogen) I would say that the “job” he had to do seems more MIB related than Jacob.

  20. Mich says:

    I have two scenerios playing in my mind…
    1. Sayid intentionaly pushed Dogen and the other guy in the pool hoping the pool would bring them back. Could he be playing the mole in Locke’s camp?

    2. Sayid intentionaly pushed them in the pool because those were Locke’s instructions. Thus making them vulnerable to infection and pwerful allies for Locke?

    Just for the record, I was truly disappointed in the epi this week. So much bordered on cheesy and was underdeveloped. Are the producers losing interest?

  21. Yann From France says:

    Oups: Charlie’s ring (and maybe the list if it’s still with IT)
    Sorry ring is “female” in french, of course Claire doesn’t have it… yet!

  22. Bronco says:

    Did anybody else think Sayid was going to kill Kate when she was the first person he saw coming out of the temple looking for MIB?

    Now, I know that she wasn’t previously dead but just for a split second there I thought Sayid may make a mistake and use the knife on her.

  23. Laura (from New Jersey) says:

    Does anyone remember when Claire is singing catch a falling star doesn’t Rousseau also sing that song? Also I don’t think flocke liked that Kate came along with sayid and Claire he kinda looked pissed and also indifferent but overall loved the episode and love the podcast!!

  24. Aaron says:

    The most important part of this episode, in my opinion, is Dogan talking about the scale. This is fascinating. He’s suggesting that every person sits somewhere on this scale between good and evil. Now obviously everyone is inclined towards some kind of moral behaviour (just as everyone is either slightly more optimistic, or slightly more pessimistic), but the idea that there’s some kind of discernible, definitive way of measuring this (with a red hot piece of metal, electric shocks and some dust, no less) boggles the mind. It makes me think of alignments in Dungeons and Dragons. I think it’s key to understanding a lot of the mysteries in Lost.

    We have two powerful men in this storyline, Jacob and the Man In Black. We’ve seen them portrayed as light and dark, and we’ve had the MIB referred to as pure evil. We’ve also seen both of them manipulate people. We now know that there’s some kind of alignment scale that is pivotal, and we know that Jacob has been manipulating people’s lives for his own purpose.

    I’ve spoken previously about the Night Watch tetralogy by Sergei Lukyanenko. To quote wikipedia:

    “The story revolves around a confrontation between two opposing supernatural groups (known as “Others”): the Night Watch, an organisation dedicated to policing the actions of the Dark Others—and the Day Watch, which polices the actions of the Light Others.”

    In these stories a “truce” exists between the two factions, keeping balance. If one side acts outside the truce (i.e uses their powers for their own purposes) they effectively give permission to the other side to commit an act with the same kind of magnitude. An early example in the stories is one character influencing a drug dealer to give up his “dark” ways. If caught, he risks allowing the other side to influence someone to find their dark path.

    When humans become “others”, the two factions aren’t allowed to directly recruit them, they must find their own path, but a situation that arises in the story is the notion that one side can influence a person subtly, by changing other things.

    This notion doesn’t seem too dissimilar to occurrences in Lost. The Man In Black finds a loophole to kill Jacob. He influences another character, and causes that character to murder Jacob. It’s made entirely clear to us during the scene that Ben is killing Jacob out of his own free will. Jacob even makes sure that it’s Ben’s choice. Something that can’t be said of Sayid’s attempt to stab Fake-Locke in this episode. But we’ll get to that later.

    Free will is the key, getting humans (and especially the candidates) to deviate and pick one side or the other.

    Loved this episode, just finished a big analysis on http://www.tinyblob.com as usual


    aaron in scotland

  25. Paul in niagara says:

    I think what I’m seeing as the show winds down is the ulimate showdown between alpha and omega, with all of creaton hanging in the balance. The man in black … The End … Has no peace because the cycle of life is always renewed. And now he’s found a way to break the cycle.

    And I believe there’ only one way he can be stopped.

    Jack has to die. It’s the ‘important’ thing he has to do.

  26. docjkm says:

    Everybody here is awfully awesome, and the lengthy read-through was both informative and entertaining. Got to go there though. When I was ‘acquainting’ myself with Lost, one of my first impressions was the delighted appreciation that the writers would set something up, get you ready, then turn the tables. Repeatedly.
    So what? We have different writers now? All you so convinced the MIB is ‘evil incarnate’? Be wary, be ready, and don’t be so sure.

    Long live Team Dark

  27. Carol from Boston says:

    Latest tweet from Damon

    “It’s not about whether or not we have the time. It’s about whether or not it matters”

    @docjkm – couldn’t agree more – they are making it too easy, MIB has an underground cave (down like hell) , Jacob has a lighthouse – towards the sky like heaven, one wears black, one wears white. I still feel both characters have good and bad sides. Their main battle, Jacob wants to stay, MIB wants to leave.

    Why did MIB lose his original body and become smoke and have to inhabit other bodies?

  28. Julie says:

    @Yann from France: (your response to my post above, “Kate never knew the story about Claire’s mum”) I wasn’t implying that Kate analyzed the situation and decided that it was best to not tell Claire because Claire would accuse her of lying: Kate didn’t even seem aware that Claire was going off the deep end, so I wouldn’t have expected that of her. I was just saying that a lot of people seem to be saying “Kate should have told her that Aaron’s with her mom!” but if she had said that, then Claire likely would have said something of the lines of, “You’re lying, my mom’s in a coma” and Kate would have told her that her mom was fine and conscious recently, and I don’t think crazy Claire would have believed that.

  29. Carol from Boston says:

    Also still team dark until Jacob’s actually gives us some actual information instead of riddles and half truths.

  30. Mirepoix in Mtl says:

    Is there a good site anyone could refer me to
    for rewatching the end of the episode and the preview for next week ?
    CTV screwed up again on us in Canada
    We dont get the ABC feed in Canada (it is replaced automatically by CTV) for regulatory reasons
    Its so important that Canadians retain their own identity by watching their own commercials…

  31. Coolpeace says:

    Good evening awesome Lost fanatics … I rewatched a few episodes from season 5 and thought I would throw out a few more random thoughts:

    The famous conversation warrants a better look:

    JACOB: I take it you’re here because of the ship.
    MAN IN BLACK: I am. How did they find the Island?
    JACOB: You’ll have to ask them when they get here.
    MAN IN BLACK: I don’t have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren’t you?
    JACOB: You are wrong.
    MAN IN BLACK: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
    JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
    MAN IN BLACK: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?
    JACOB: Yes.
    MAN IN BLACK: One of these days, sooner or later… I’m going to find a loophole, my friend.
    JACOB: Well, when you do, I’ll be right here.

    When I rewatched this conversation between Jacob and MIB, it occured to me that maybe we are hung up on the wrong issue. It is not important who is good and/or who is evil, RATHER it is a conflict between the two men. jacob is trying to prove that MIB is wrong about ‘THEY’ and about what THEY do.

    MIB says ‘They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.’

    We should possibly assume that the THEY they are talking about is man/humanity/mankind. Or maybe it is more specific and they could be talking about a specific group of people, a bloodline… and I think that is somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

    Jacob is intent in showing MIB that he is wrong in his conclusion and that it is not over until its over, and that anything that happens prior to that end is progress.

    However, there are rules and they must follow them in trying to prove their theories.

    MIB is tired and wants out (to go home). He can only do that if Jacob is killed and he will then be one step closer to being free to leave.

    There is obviously something more to it or else after killing Jacob he would have left. But there must be more to do. He needs to recruit, to accomplish the next steps to going home.

    Now, in order to accomplish their goals of proving the other wrong … and by following the rules … they can manipulate, coherce, infulence, nudge etc.

    Because each entity has a different ideology, MIB believes that man will always fight, destroy and will corrupt or be corrupted; and Jacob believes the opposite that man can move beyong those basic traits and learn and grow.

    Because MIB thinks that THEY will always fight, destory and corrupt, it is no surprise that he attempts to gain an advantage by interveneing and appealing to those traits in his recruits.

    Whereas, Jacob on the other hand tries to appeal by giving a choice, by providing life experiences that may foster growth in his candidate, suggesting free will or at times as for Jack put him in a situation and letting him come to his own conclusions.

    And throughout the last five season we have seen that over and over again with our Losties (Jacob’s candidates).

    Sayid tortures Sawyer in the first season over Shannon’s inhaler, and by season 5 Sawyer is willing to risk everything to free Sayid from the jail cell.

    Sayid has always wanted to become a ‘good man’ and redeem himself from his past actions, however, when he has an opportunity to do so, he sacrifices his dream of redemption in order to protect his friends, family and loves ones. He does not accept Sawyer’s plan to get him out of the jail cell, nor does he want to pretend to defect to Others from the Hostiles in “HE’s OUR YOU” .

    Kate finally realizes that rising Aaron while Claire is on the Island is not a good way to live and decides to go back and bring back Claire and live with the concequences of breaking parole.

    God, I hope I did not put anyone to sleep… I know it all sounds very basic and thats my point. That we are so caught up about who is good and evil and black and white, that it is clouding your judgements. In essence, the writers are drowning us in details – which are interesting granted but not essential to the story so that we can argue about this and that and not see the forest for the trees.

  32. Coolpeace says:

    ps… in the last paragraph I meant to write :

    … that it is clouding our judgments. (not ‘your’)

    It just occured to me that maybe we are over thinking and that we should just let them tell their story.

    Of course, all the fun is in the theorizing, isn’t it??

  33. Yemeni says:

    I’m tired of theorizing about good vs evil and dark vs light and all of the other esoteric themes that are being discussed. I would be happy with once and for all getting straightforward answers to questions we’ve had from seasons 1 & 2. Like, what the hell are the whispers? What gave Locke the ability to walk? Why did he sometimes lose the ability to walk? WTF is this smoke monster? Who the heck are the others? Why did Kate see a black horse? Why did the “others” take kids? Why does Alpert never age? There are dozens more unanswered questions and we are quickly running out of time. I know we won’t have answers to them all, but the ones I listed are critical. If I don’t conclusive answers, I’m going to be pissed >:-(

  34. Carol from Boston says:

    @coolpeace – good theory and also good idea to just go with the flow and see where the stories lead us.

    @mirepoix – does hulu or Netflix work for you for viewing episodes? Don’t forget they’ll probably replay it next week in an enhanced version. Yann might be able to find a site for you since he has the same problem being in France.

  35. Carol from Boston says:

    @mirepoix – google “project free tv” that has it, not sure if there is spyware or anything involved though, check it out first.

  36. For those who keep trying to figure out what flash sideways world is. Darlton explain it here. If you don’t want to know – Don’t go there.

    http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/02/02/lost-premiere-damon-carlton/

  37. Alice on Long Island says:

    I think we’re going to find out that Locke is more good than bad. The flash sideways may actually be flash forwards. The lives are different than they were pre island they have changed mainly for the better. Still not sure what’s up with Sayid but I think he killed reluctantly to help Nadia. He weighed good vs evil. I believe the flashes we see is what will be their lives after the final war and Unlocke destroys the island forever. It will create a timeshift and they will have no recollection of the island but their lives will all continue to intertwine.

  38. Kathy says:

    I noticed something that I did not see anybody comment on yet. Did you all notice that Dogen told Sayid to stab the person ‘before they talk’ (paraphrasing). Dogen was giving Sayid directions on killing Locke.

    At any rate, when Locke appeared to Sayid, and Sayid stabbed him, Locke talked to Sayid BEFORE Sayid stabbed him!!! When Sayid returned to the Temple, Dogen asked him is the person talked before he stabbed him? Sayid messed up which is really hard to believe. He is always a killer, no matter when, or where he exists, but he did not take directions well.

    Did anybody notice in the scene where the smoke monster (MIB) flies over Kate’s head, while she is hanging in the pit that Claire is in, you can see things in the smoke? I thought it might be people, or body parts, but I cannot be sure. I also think Smokey was ‘flashing’ as well.

    I am just guessing here but Jack is really important to the whole plot. Once he realizes what ‘work’ he has to do, he will be the last man standing. Sorry, but I think all of our Losties will be DOA, in the Island time line. The other time line, in my opinion, will be the surviving, redeemed, time line. The last five years were ‘just progress’.

  39. Alice on Long Island says:

    I should have said Unlocke is more good than evil

  40. Paul in niagara says:

    CTV website has the entire show. Free

  41. LostLou says:

    Hmmm. With Kate’s confession to Claire that she has Aaron, don’t you think maybe Claire will realize that “her father” and “her friend” has been lying to her? Maybe this is the wild card that changes the equation/

  42. Yann From France says:

    @Kathy: you should read Rich and Coolpeace theories on this blog… you might find something interesting there.
    Maybe Kate is taken by “the siren” that is MIB according to them.
    I am with you on the “we are all gonna die” theory.

    @Ryan and Jen: Only 10episodes left… I wanted to check the blog where we all posted our “what question do you want to be answered” to check how far we are but only the podcast is left… Is there a way to put it back? Did I missed it?

  43. Kevie says:

    @Coolpeace: Interesting observations.

    It seems also that Jacob is more upfront about the ‘deals’ he offers people. MiB offers something tempting and clearly unnatural–Sayid will be reuinited with his dead lover–which may come with unforseen costs. Classic deal with the devil: a selfish reward in the present, with eventual damnation as the cost.

    Jacob offers such a bargain to Dogen, but the nature of it is very different: He’s offering not to raise the dead, but to subtly influence a death not to happen. And he’s upfront about the costs: Dogen must give up his life, never see his son again. He’s essentially offering Dogen an opportunity to sacrifice himself for someone else’s benefit, which is a ‘hard bargain’ but karmically more beneficial.

    Regarding Sayid, he basically gave in to despair, gave in to his worst feelings about himself: I’m nothing more than a killer, a thug. It’s always seemed to me that each of the main characters is caught in a struggle between their true (higher) nature, and a negative self-image, which always exerts an addictive pull.

  44. Coolpeace says:

    @ Melonpool : I just reread the last part of the comments and realized that we came to similar thoughts.

  45. Stefani from Mass says:

    Haven’t read through the 200+ posts – so my apologies if this idea is previously posted:

    Will Dogen & Lennon be revived ala Sayid from the gurgling pool? If so, what does that mean?

    OR did Dogen’s heart-to-heart with Sayid about his son and the car accident highlight LAST week’s episode with Jack’s son playing piano and Dogen’s son being there. Something that was just weird last week but now much more profound!

    OR was Dogen LAST WEEK a vision/ghost to Jack ala Christian and Charlie (to Hurley) and his son was there (alive and well complimenting David’s piano playing) but Dogen is actually DEAD?

    My head is now spinning 😉

  46. orangeboxers says:

    i’ve been toying with this for a while, but does anyone think there is something to the fact that all of the Losties are only-children in their families, except for juliette who has one sister, and sayid who has one brother? there’s a lot of daddy-issue stuff that’s been talked about, but i think there’s something interesting going on about these only-children… biblical references?

    also
    aaron is an only child
    charlie (penny/des’s kid) is an only child
    jack’s son david is an only child

    oh, and jesus, btw, was an only child.

    i don’t know. seems more than accident, but don’t know why.

  47. steve says:

    @Kathy – I saw something in the smoke monster too! It was similar to the Lord of the Rings scene where the water was shaped like horses by Gandalf. Although I saw it in HD, I didn’t record it in HD. I can’t find any screen caps on the internets. Anyone find any caps?

  48. Laura says:

    @Steve and @Kathy I brought this up back on the 3/2. My son saw something even before I did! I just checked out screen caps on lost-media.com and there is a pretty good shot of what we saw on file 337. It looks like the back end of a horse flying by, Being a pretty big LOTR fan myself I too was reminded of the scene Steve mentions. I’m actually kind of surprised that more hasn’t been made out of this, I think we may have gotten our first glimpse of what Smokey really looks like!

  49. steve says:

    Okay, here are the screen caps for whatever it is in the monster while flying over Kate. Interesting theory too. Locke is riding the smoke monster. Ha ha. Now I’m channeling a certain Pickens riding a missile in Dr Strangelove. The figures are too blurry to make out. Need more HD… must have HD…

    http://www.terrybutler.co.uk/2010/03/06/lost-s06e06-sundown-figure-in-the-smoke-monster/

    Riding the missile.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI

  50. Mich says:

    Has anyone ever made a connection between Smokey and the popular anti-hero of the 1930’s+ “The Shadow”? There are a great deal of similar characteristics, though they seem to be spread out between characters! Thoughts anyone?

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