The Season 5 finale gave us the widest view yet of what’s been unfolding on the The Island, and for that, I’m thrilled. But the Season 5 finale also honed in on some of our character’s most petty failings, and for that, we’re both somewhat annoyed. Frankly, Jen was livid. I like the suggestion that we’ve been watching only the latest round in a perpetual battle between light and dark — one in which our survivors finally opened a “loophole” for the dark forces to gain the upper hand. I don’t like the idea that the huge, dramatic, cataclysmic detonation of the Jughead core we’ve been building up to all season came only as the result of more twists in the “para-love-ogram.”
Let’s start with what I liked. Though “like” is dependent entirely on the foolhardy presumption that my interpretation of what we’ve seen with Jacob is right. Based solely on the opening scene, no less. To wit:
Jacob is light, goodness, benevolence. His nemesis, yet unnamed, is dark, petty, judgemental. Perhaps for an eternity, they have battled on The Island. But they cannot vanquish each other directly. The Island is largely the chess board, and the pieces are men. Imperfect, flawed humans. By the time the Black Rock arrives, they’ve been through the cycle many times. Jacob summoned another group, believing they might avoid self destruction. Darkness says, “It always ends the same.”
So the Black Rock, the Dharma Initiative, perhaps even The Others, and most certainly the survivors of Flight 815… each group came to the island, struggled over leadership, and self destructed.
Richard Alpert, perpetual advisor, serves Jacob by trying to guide and protect whomever is the leader: Eloise (who Richard called his leader in 1977), Ben (whom Richard and perhaps Jacob felt was ultimately an inadequate leader), and Locke (who Richard presumed to be special, even if it was Locke that gave him that idea in the first place). Darkness, meanwhile, acts through visions, or actually possessing the form of the dead. Christian Shephard. Alex. Perhaps Claire. And, yes, the late Locke, whom we now know isn’t Locke. We’ll call him Dark Locke.
Jacob is compassionate and feels for these flawed people. He visits them, literally touches them, perhaps merely knowing their path, or perhaps steering them. However the cycle ends, he knows it must end.
But something happened with Oceanic Flight 815. Something about this last cycle was different. And the why and how are, most likely, part of what awaits in Season Six. Nonetheless, the combination of The Incident, of Desmond turning the failsafe, of Eloise sending them back on Ajira 316 but scattering them through time — this whole convoluted series events, the entirety of the last five seasons of “LOST” — has led us to the loophole. The loophole that allowed Darkness to vanquish Jacob, with Ben as his instrument.
What is the loophole?
I can only guess by guessing at the rules. Only the leader can enter the temple. There can be only one leader. And the leader, essentially, decides who wins. Darkness, through manipulating the leader with visions and the reanimated dead, has probably brought the leader to Jacob dozens or hundreds of times. Each time, the leader has probably arrived, ready to reject and kill Jacob. But once inside, alone, Jacob appeals to the leader’s better self, gives them a choice, and they always choose light.
Darkness found his loophole through Locke. I’m not sure exactly when, but Locke had been the key for a while. Locke eventually died. And, yes, Locke is still dead. But with his body returned to the island, Darkness was able to take the form of Locke, becoming Dark Locke, and bewilder everyone — including Ben and, curiously, Richard — with his knowledge of The Island. He asserts many times that he is the leader. And he repeatedly taunts Ben for never having made the cut with Jacob.
Dark Locke brings everyone to Jacob. He, the supposed leader, goes into Jacob’s lair, and insists on bringing Ben. Why? Because Ben is the leader. Ben’s been the leader ever since he returned on Ajira 316 and woke up in the infirmary, because Locke is still dead. That’s the loophole. And Dark Locke, having goaded Ben during the entire journey, looses his jealousy and insecurity and rage, and Ben, the leader, stabs Jacob and throws him into the fire.
The end?
Of course not. With his last breath, Jacob says, “They’re coming.” Who? My guess, perhaps obviously, is that “they” are everyone misplaced in time, back in 1977, who are near the Swan and subjected to the universe-twisting combination of electromagnetism and a hydrogen bomb blast. My guess for Season 6 is that everyone is reunited in 2007, but Darkness rules The Island, and the epic battle will be these imperfect, flawed humans trying to vanquish him.
But I could be completely wrong.
For example, where does the smoke monster fit? Is it an agent of Darkness? I’m inclined to think so, since it does stand in judgment of men, finding them unworthy and destroying them much as I imagine Darkness would. It could also be the agent through which Darkness assumes the form of the dead, such as both Alex and Dark Locke in the temple. Jen’s question, though, is how Ben became familiar enough with it to use it for his own means. It may be more likely that the smoke monster is a free agent.
Where do Bram and Ilana fit? Given the riddle, I guess they’re aligned with Alpert, and therefore presumably Jacob. What role will they play? I certainly hope it’s something more significant than teasing viewers with a mystery box for half a season. And if we now know that Ilana always knew Locke was in that box, she was obviously not surprised by seeing Dark Locke eating a mango in “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.” How can she not be surprised by Dark Locke, but Alpert be apparently merely suspicious? And could they actually be agents of Darkness? After all, in the opening scene in the ancient past, it’s Darkness who calls Jacob “my friend.”
And if we’ve actually been watching pawns on a chess board, manipulated by Jacob and Darkness, it’d be somewhat disheartening to imagine that the longstanding battle between crafty and clever Ben and rich industrialist Charles Widmore is essentially insignificant. There has to be more to it.
Yet, Ben was goaded into killing Jacob after decades of servitude simply by becoming a petulant, whiny, sore loser. Juliet reverses herself halfway through the “Stop Jack” mission, simply because Sawyer looked at Kate funny. And Jack admits that his talk about destiny was all a crock: he wants to detonate a deadly hydrogen bomb simply because he blew it with Kate. Sayid is shot, valiantly rigs the bomb to go off on impact, but it doesn’t. Juliet dies, but doesn’t, but does, because Jack didn’t detonate the bomb, she did. And Miles gets the throwaway line about how their actions are creating the events they’re trying to stop… all bringing us to the big dramatic blast that wasn’t, because it was effectively “defused” by all the character machinations that led up to it.
The preceding paragraph is essentially why Jen went to bed angry. Here’s hoping she’s feeling a little more charitable by the time we record our podcast.
Notes and Notions:
- Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse hinted that the end of this Season 5 finale would be like the end of the Season 1 finale, and it was. Just as we saw nothing at the bottom of the hatch after Locke finally blew it open, we saw nothing after the bright white flash of Jughead. It’s a cliffhanger in only the faintest sense of the word. No tangible piece of what may come in Season 6 beyond “they’re coming.”
- If the “what’s in the box” teases weren’t enough, what’s the deal with Hurley’s guitar case? We know Jacob gave it to him, which is great, but… really? Will we just not know? Or will it be blasted into 2007 alongside Hurley to taunt us in Season 6?
- When Juliet said, “Live together, die alone,” didn’t you want to punch her in the face?
- Juliet’s death was wrenching, but probably would’ve been moreso if she hadn’t essentially dumped Sawyer two scenes earlier. It doesn’t look good for Sayid, either. And while it was good to see Phil get skewered, I really felt Sawyer deserved to have his death under his belt, rather than a random pipe.
- I’m not sure whether Jacob’s visits with all our characters were meant to direct them to their fates or change them. They made a point of showing him physically touch each of them, tapping Kate on the nose, holding young Sawyer’s hand a moment when handing him a pen. But it seems odd that Jacob helps revive Locke after falling from a high rise, but doesn’t do much more than give Jack an Apollo Bar.
- I really liked how Rose and Bernard were handled, even if I’m pretty sure this is the last we’ll see of them (beyond perhaps more explicit confirmation that they’re the “Adam and Eve” skeletons from Season 1). Their dismay at being found was hilarious. They got the lives they always wanted, they retired from the cycle of violence, and they’re happy to die as long as they’re together. Aww…
- We saw Vincent, too, but he’s now a mystery to me. If he survives the hydrogen bomb blast in 1977, he’s not likely to still be around in 2007. Unless he’s thrown through time along with Jack and friends. I can’t think of any other way Vincent makes it to the end of Season 6, as the creators seem to suggest he will.
- I liked how Bram called Frank a “yahoo.” Since it turned out that Frank was only pretending to be unconscious, I would’ve enjoyed having him pop up to respond to the word like he did in Season 4. He also got the great line, “In my experience the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.”
- Talk about writing themselves out of a corner. Jughead already shrunk by several feet between “Jughead” and “Follow the Leader.” But after talking so much about its size and weight, turns out all we need is the core, which conveniently fits in a backpack. Now we can walk it over to the Swan!
- Some of the flashbacks were so short, and linked so plainly to the scenes that followed, I would’ve rather not seen them. Juliet’s parents got divorced, so that’s why she dumps Sawyer! Sayid watched Nadia die in the street, so that’s why he’s ready to die after being shot! Jacob recruited Ilana, and Jacob put Hurley on Ajira 316! It felt off.
- When Locke was thrown through the window, didn’t he bring a cascade of broken glass with him? The way he drops, singularly, with a thud before Jacob walks up seemed a bit strange. And were they suggesting Jacob saved Sayid’s life by pulling him back off the street?
- I can forgive Miles’ anvilicious “what if this causes the incident” epiphany because he also had the great line after Jack said the plan is not to go back in time. “Right, because that would be ridiculous.”
- Snarky Ben is fun. “I’m a Pisces.” Or, “I lied. It’s what I do.” Or when Sun asks Ben if he expects her to believe he doesn’t know about the statue. “Not really.”
- I liked that Sun found Charlie’s Drive Shaft ring in Aaron’s old crib, and that Charlie was mentioned in Jacob’s conversation with Hurley (along with Libby). Interesting how some long lost characters still get shoutouts, while many others don’t.
- Book: “Everything that Rises must Converge” by Flannery O’Connor. Interestingly, Jen’s working her way through an anthology of O’Connor short stories right now.
- Locations: Too many to list completely. Sun and Jin got married at the Byodo-In Temple in Kaneohe. Locke fell out of the Waikiki Landmark highrise on Kalakaua Avenue in Waikiki. Young Kate shoplifted from a small store near Haleiwa (the name escapes me at the moment, but we mentioned it on our podcast). Young Sawyer’s funeral was at a church in Ewa Villages. Hurley was released from the Oahu Community Correctional Center on Dillingham Blvd. Nadia was killed at the corner of Auahi and Kamani streets off Ward.
What did you think? Comment below, call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127, or e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com.
Hi everyone, I’m just doing my part at upping the posts. Great thoughts as always from everyone. @ Doc JKM, your thoughts are dead on. We love this show for all those reasons. @John Harvey, Ihave to disagree with you about the last season coming up. I would love another 2 or 3 seasons to tie up all of the “loose ends” so to speak. However I still believe that this will be the greatest series ever made for broadcast tv. LOST RULES
The white flash of Jughead and the moment when Desmond turned the failsafe key seem connected by the location and the bursts of electromagnetic energy at the very least. They occur at separate points in the continuum of time, but what if they act together like two keys that have to be turned simultaneously at distant ends of a passage to unlock that portal or “open the box?” At the intersection of these powerful distortions of the fabric of reality, linear time is circumvented and they are one event with a single effect.
Maybe they just act together to make this “all go away” in the words of Kelvin. The two discharges of energy combined into one incident extinguish the timeline which radiates out like a flash of light after a catastrophic explosion, but the substance of which no longer exists. That is the source of the fertility problems. You can’t conceive anything new into an after image which has no reality of its own.
@ You All Everybody
In terms of the influence of sacred mythology on the story, it might be useful to consider that almost every religious narrative from around the world shares a great many similarities. You have the creation myth, the world emerging from the waters of darkness; the snake/dragon/water monster that symbolizes the primordial chaos; a hero who undertakes a journey, often to the underworld, to return with light/fire/knowledge to share with the rest of humanity. The book to read on this subject is Joseph Campbell”s “The Hero With a Thousand Faces.” (Audible available?) I’ve always said he would have had a field day with Lost. Anyway, we’ve had Buddhist/Hindu, Islamic, Animistic, Greek, Egyptian, and Judeo/Christian influences on Lost in ample measure. I see the island as perhaps the one source, the Atlantis before the world broke apart in a tower of Babel moment. This would explain all these similarities.
It will be hard to let go of LOST for a few months — time to watch previous seasons and catch all the foreshadowing clues, particularly re: Ben, Widmore, Richard and Jacob
In the end, I felt for Juliette and her deep insecurities — previously, she always seemed like such a remote reserved smug character with a continual sneer — i found it hard to like her — she obviously had a profound effect on James by helping him to mature and find contentment
Kate is still my favorite character — i love her spunk and passion — i hope the ending of s6 will be worthy of her
not looking forward to seeing irritating Claire back — if the anti-Jacob inhabits the dead, was Claire in that category? — how about Hurley being “blessed” by his visions? — are some of the visions Jacob?
@ Stubble
Sorry, have to disagree. The scene with Sayid and Nadia is not about free will, at least not in the sense of a classic struggle with good/evil, right/wrong. Compare this scene with Locke falling from the window. In your view of “free will”, it was ultimately Locke’s fault for being pushed out of the window — he “chose” to stand in front of the window, where his dad could easily push him out. Is that a better choice than for Nadia to walk into the street to be murdered? Yet, Jacob still touched Locke’s (dead?) body and revived him. Why didn’t he do that for Nadia?
Ultimately, free will is not the message we should be taking away from these scenes. They were probably nothing more than scenes to show how Jacob had previously handpicked our LOSTies for a special purpose — to show that he has always had a plan. Nadia’s death was more likely needed to provide Sayid’s motivation to do what he was destined to do. AND we have enough characters already to deal with in season 6…no sense in bringing her into the picture. Oh, AND because the writers had to clear the way for Sayid and Kate to fall in love.
@ Jo in Wales
Bad Twin paid off in big way with the impersonation of Locke. We went from next to nothing to a full presentation of Jacob as well. Let’s hope the numbers and the sickness are not far behind.
@ Eva
Related to my comment above, if TBTB don’t deliver on the big ticket questions, all hell will break loose.
@ Thom Stanley
Although we can’t be certain yet, my feeling is that Dark Locke is just playing Ben at that point. He draws Ben out into revealing what happened while he already has a plan to turn it against him. Smokey acts as a kind of independent verification of Locke’s ascendance when, really, it’s just another guise for the deceiver. Love the Dorian Gray comment.
Sometimes I long for an edit function. I return the graciousness of your spirit as you pardon my errors. Namaste.
@Yann From France
I see what you mean about wanting those answers but it’s far too early to know what will and what won’t be answered in the series. I think you’re correct that some of the things we want answered won’t be answered but it’d be impossible to know which of the unanswered questions are more important than others. If we knew what was more important, we’d be be spoiled to how it’s all going to end.
@iwantdesmondshair
No reason to be sad yet. Sorry to repeat myself but there’s no way for us to guess what questions will end up being answered in the last season. It is smart to recognize that some may never be answered but there’s no reason to get upset about it yet. As for the the “3 years ago” and “30 years later” stuff, I *mostly* agree with what you are saying. But here’s the thing: for the Season 3 timeline, it was part of the story that you didn’t know where everything fit. You were looking at the *same* characters at *different* points in their life and piecing together what has changed and what has remained the same. This season, you’re looking at *different* characters in *different* times but on their one linear path. It was fine to leave it up in the air for season 3 but there’s no point in it for season 5. For people who post on boards and listen to podcasts, it seems unnecessary but it the casual viewer it may help. I agree that it is a little annoying but since telling us when we are isn’t hurting the shock value, it doesn’t bother me much. I would agrue that there have been some surprising moments this season, but when you’re really involved in the fandom, just about every possiblity is thrown out there so we’re not as surprised when we see it. Had we had a week between seeing Jack in his downward spiral during the Season 3 finale, we probably would have pieced together things like his new cell phone and realized it was a flashfoward. Since it was contained within an episode, though, it was a “holy crap” moment for most of us.
I don’t know. I guess from where I’m sitting, it looks like we have people either upset because the clues aren’t there so we can’t theorize or it’s no surprise because we’re so good at theorizing and we’re drawing to an end so we’re actually getting answers to things we’ve been theorizing about for a very long time.
Honest question, other than the “3 years ago” and “30 years later” example, what else is being spoonfed?
@Jo in Wales
Great point about the Bad Twin! That seems to fit both in terms of Locke and Dark Locke as well as Jacob and Anti-Jacob … the good vs. evil dichotomy we seem to be getting.
@Thom Stanley
I agree that it isn’t definite that the smoke monster and Anti-Jacob are one in the same but Anti-Jacob’s reaction to Ben saying that his dead daughter told him to do whatever Locke said isn’t proof that they aren’t one in the same. Anti-Jacob was playing a role and he had to make Ben believe that this was new information to him. Regardless of whether or not Anti-Jacob and the smoke monster are the same thing, I’d be pretty surprised if Anti-Jacob didn’t already know what “Alex” told Ben. Ben telling Anti-Jacob that Alex’s message worked was still good news to him. It told him that he really had found the loophole because Ben would do his dirty work for him per Alex’s instrucitons. I really liked your point about Jacob’s death could have serious implications for Richard, and possibly others. I’d be bummed to see Richard die or age but I think that we probably will see some changes in him, especially if Jacob doesn’t somehow regain control quickly.
DocJKM
You were right on
We are addicted to Lost We all know it Lets face it
I for one dedicated enough time to enjoy this blog to know that I am a few thousand dollars (albeit CDN$) down
But who knows, I may have used this time to improve my golf game (which has suffered a bit)
So whats a little pleasure worth ?
Getting back to the eye at the end
We in Canada are not getting, for regulatory reasons (protecting Canadian identity) the US feed when it airs
This means that we miss the last couple of minutes that overlap the next program which is often not a ABC program on the CTV network.
It sucks the same way we dont get to see the Super Bowl commercials live but only the next day on the net
Fortunately for us French minority in Quebec we get to see the tranlated versions over the summer in their entireity
So by the end of August I will know what this eye is all about
Anyway this show would be as much fun without you all everybody chipping in We just like comparing notes…
Thanks Jen & Ryan
I actually meant that it would NOT be as much fun
Keep the ideas and theories coming
Hindsight is really 20/20.
I don’t need to be negative about the show…just thought it was funny. Locke lands on the pavement after falling out of the window of a high rise building and none of the passerby’s look up. – strange.
Ryan & Jen….Can’t wait for the podcast.
I was just rewatching the final scene and suddenly realised that when Jacob says to Ben “What about you?” he may not have been saying it in a why should I care way but in a way that asks the question back at Ben asking him about all the bad things he had done…. lying about talking to Jacob to get his own way etc.
I agree, Mark B, that it didn’t come off on the second viewing the way that it came off upon first viewing. I definitely don’t think he meant it the way that Ben took it. Jacob didn’t seem to be saying it in a cruel way at all. It kinda reminds me of Christian’s question to Jack earlier in the episode … “are you sure it’s me who doesn’t believe in you?”
So, we have to assume that the Locke, Rose, etc Healings were not the mystical island rather Anti-Jacob priming the losties for possible conversion to do his bidding as part of/a the loop hole. I remember Rose questioning why Jack got sick when ‘people don’t get sick here’ and Ben’s tumor, they simply were not candidates to the anti-Jacob at that point and were not healed because were no deemed to have any value in the ultimate persuit of killing Jacob.
@Yann From France
regarding Valenzetti: alas, not canon. I find the release of seemingly crucial pieces of the puzzle but are non-canonical to be frustrating (to us fans) at best, and irresponsible (of TPTB) at worst. Personally, I am actually bitter about the Comic Con video of Pierre Chang sending a message 30 years in to the future, and that the cameraman was (by the voice) Daniel Faraday. Eventually, Dalton retracted this very convincing production with the wimpy characterization of it as being a “continuity error.” Continuity my arse.
This leads to the bigger question you raise: which I will paraphrase: in contrast to J.K. Rowling’s handling of Harry Potter, will LOST tie together at its end, and will the final season answer the many open questions. I am very confident that the answer to this will be a resounding NO. Although LOST will be much better than other shows, such as Twin Peaks or X-Files. I believe there are several reasons for this:
1) While the original creative team may have had some idea what the story was about, it did wander for a while, and much was put out there just to keep us fans confused and intrigued and puzzled and bought-in. Darlton have said that not every question will be answered. Of course not, because there is no over-arching coherent story that accommodates everything that we have seen. Some bits will be given short shrift, such as the Polar Bears, which are now considered to have been adequately explained (so says Carlton in a video interview): they were brought to Hydra island by Dharma, after the Incident escaped, and swam over to the main island, where they reproduced. C’mon — we’re supposed to believe that polar bears can survive in such conditions??? And then, of course the interviewer asks: what about the one in Tunisia? Uhhmmm….
2) The story must accommodate the realities of production. The actor portraying Eko wanted to leave Hawai’i, and so he had to be written out of the story (much as we liked him, and his church was incomplete). Similar problems arose with the actresses portraying Libby and Ana Lucia, who needed to offed from the show. I’ve no idea what other realties factor.
3) The mythology is just too dang big! There’s been soooo much back-story crafted that there’s no way to make it all tie together (fiction is much messier than reality).
4) The fans often like characters that are consequential to the evolving story. I believe Rose and Bernard are such. So, to appease “our” (collective) fervent desire to know what has happened to them, a scene is crafted to explain they are now happily living in the woods. Bye-bye. (uhh, how do they get through the sonic fence to steal food from the D.I. ? or is someone bringing it to them? oops! more questions).
5) TPTB may want a story ending that leaves room for either a (television) spin-off or a (movie) sequel. In such case, perhaps the story can’t be buttoned up all too completely and the questions answered all too fully.
fwiw.
About answers and negative comments on the show …..
1. Answers: D&C have said that some of the mysteries will not be answered (e.g. Libbys past) and others as far as they are concerned have already been answered (e.g. the numbers). My feeling is that many will not be answered at all (eg quarrantine on Swan) and others will only be answered by conjecture (eg Adam and Eve => Rose and Bernard). Others will have to be answered (eg origin of Smoke Monster but even that maybe left hanging). I suspect D&C started the show with an over arching storyline and the idea that they needed to add more mysteries to keep people watching but now they are closing the loops they will not close all of them. Now we are into the final season I believe they will have to be very selective and will only answer the mysteries THEY consider important. A season where they answer mysteries ever week will not be the same.
2. Negative comments on the show: Some people will rate LOST as the greatest hour on tv no matter what happens in the show — some people would say an hour of Jack-Kate-Sawyer love triangle was pure gold. Some people will always rate episodes average, even one like the Constant. Some episodes are bound to be better than others. I just feel that the S5 finale didn’t cut the mustard. The opening scene was one of the best scenes in the entire show. The Juliet ‘death’ (is she dead or is she pinged into the future/past with our othe Lostaways … anyone want to call her agent and see if Elizabeth Mitchell is avaliable for work next fall?) scene was one of the worst. Ben killing Jacob, was great, Jack’s motivation to explode the bomb to reset history for another chance at Kate was plain stupid — she’ll be going to jail Jack and you won’t know her like ever. Hence my overall rating of good but not great.
@Mark B – I would be lying if I said I didn’t share some of your frustrations, even though I am usually the first one out there to defend the fact that just an hour ‘Jack-Kate Sawyer’ is still better than anything else out there. That being said, I have a feeling that the ‘quarantine’ inside is the Swan hatch was put there due to the detonation of the bomb and the possible long-term impact on the island environment it could have caused in the immediate vicinity around the Swan. Maybe the electromagnetism kind of ‘sucked’ the H-bomb energy within, thus causing an impending implosion, hence the failsafe key, yada, yada, yada. Another possibility was that it was marked as quarantine to keep Radzinsky from ever venturing out too far, and since he was the one against deploying non-essentials off the island and the one that kept on drilling against Chang’s wishes, it might have been put there to keep him imprisoned in the potentially unsafe environment he helped to cause.
Regarding the concern of missing answers to questions Vs. spoonfed answers: Another possibility is that the answer of some mysteries will then also answer other numerous remaining mysteries without having to be spoon-fed to audience. Case in point, the reveal of the AJ looking for a loophole and the rest of the opening scene and taking the form of DeadLocke answered multiple questions: 1. The compass was originally posessed by AJ (at least pre-loop) 2. Locke was not really brought back to the ‘land of the living’ 3. The island was not able to talk to Locke, it was AJ’s communication with the island, 4. Why Jacob was so secluded (to avoid the chance of being killed by AJ), yada, yada, yada.
True, it then brought in a whole new series of questions, but I would have to put some faith in the writers that as the questions become wider in scope and concept, the answers will follow suit, and then some of the more trivial issues will be answered in the course of the story unfolding.
Just my two cents. No, you cannot have your change back! Heehee
@christy in TX
Don’t get me wrong, I think LOST is the only hour on tv worth paying for.
Between S4 and S5 I left the US and moved to Australia who are about three or four epis behind. Of all the tv I watched in the US, which wasn’t much, the only show I watch via my old US iTunes account is LOST. I now pay the $2 per show to get it the next day. I will continue to do this through S6. LOST is the best show on tv, the only one really worth watching, however within a season there are always ups and downs, better and worse episodes. I still say that the finale was not as great as people are making out. It had great parts but also enough bad parts to make it only a good episode, not a great one.
As for answers, your explaination of the quarantine sign is a case in point. We have concluded from what we have seen why the sign is there. I think the D&C will not go out of their way to explain it ‘in show’. I think we WILL get answers to the major plot points but I am also very sure many fans will be dissappointed with the lack of answers and even the S6 finale. I foresee a high percentage of fans will proably be dissappointed with the final wrap-up and even the final scene.
The problem TPTB have is that, this time next year, fans may end up concentrating their energy into rants about the lack of specific mystery answers rather than veiwing the six year LOST story as what it is …. a character driven sci-fi/mystery show that is (or at that tiem was) far superior to everything else on tv.
D&C have a choice they can cram in all the answers and risk a ‘spoon fed’ final season or they can leave some open ended and face the wrath of the fans. I bet they go for the second option. A third option would be as I said before have a one/two hour special interview where they discuss what answers they didn’t provide. Something on a LOST Complete DVD set to make us part with more cash even though we have all the seasons in seperate sets !
@Mark B –
Did you dislike Juliet’s “death” scene because it was so unrealistic that she’d survive that fall? I personally loved the acting and dialog between Sawyer and Juliet in that scene so I just want to be sure I know where you’re coming from.
Regarding her unlikely survival, I actually have an interesting theory from my brother, with me elaborating on it a little … but I haven’t had a chance to check the actual episode yet to see if I really believe this is possible. He was telling me that Juliet waking up from the fall looks very similar to Locke waking up from his fall. Is it possible that Jacob was there but we couldn’t see him? That the reason we didn’t see Juliet touched in her flashback this episode is because he touched her in that moment and gave her life, similar to how he revived Locke?… but why don’t we see Jacob there? Maybe this is where the loophole comes to help Jacob out. By Ben killing Jacob in 2007 at the same time in the Losties’ lives that the Incident is happening in 1977, Jacob’s spirit is able to break away from his body and transcend time to save Juliet so she can detonate the bomb and the 1977 Losties can be propelled forward into 2007 to fight against Anti-Jacob. Alright, I know that’s kinda out there, especially the leaps that I made about 2007 and 1977 happening at the same time and spirit-Jacob transcending time … but I still find it pretty interesting to think about.
I would be mighty disappointed if they answered every last question that’s ever been raised on this show. I realize that puts me in the minority, but the whole allure of Lost to me is the mystery and having ALL of the individual mysteries put to rest would leave me feeling like the show is completely de-mystified. I want to be able to go back and watch all of the episodes from season one on and still wonder about the smaller mysteries and create my own ideas about the answers.
As long as they don’t explain the force.
Highlights of the finale for me were the opening sequence on the beach and the final scene in Jacob’s lair. There was a moment between Kate and Jack that seemed genuine, where they both wanted to say a lot more to each other but couldn’t — I loved it. Best line of the show: “What about you?” It was as if Jacob was saying, “Ben, let go of your ego. Why do you think you’re any better than anyone else?”
My low points were much the same as what was posted in Ryan’s blog summary (Kate/Sawyer/Juliet’s silly motivational changes and Jack’s “I had her but lost her” reasoning), although I didn’t go to bed mad like Jen. LOL. Also, I found it hard to believe Sayid would know how to remove a nuclear warhead from the bomb AND arm it to detonate on impact. He was a torturer and a communications specialist — I guess I must have missed the episode where he was given specialized nuclear bomb training by Saddam. Small quibble.
Overall, I really enjoyed the finale and can’t wait for Season 6.
Oh, and on a final note I want to take this opportunity to say to Jen and Ryan, I love your podcasts!! I happened on them this past summer, and now they’re just a regular part of my LOST fix. Thanks for all your hard work.
@Moriah
It’s surviving the fall with tonnes of metal crashing around her I found preposterous. It was capped off by the smacking of the bomb with a rock to make it go off …. assuming it went off that is and the incident was that not something else. Sorry don’t buy the Jacob theory but it is a possibility. That said I really hope Juliet is alive, she probably isn’t.
@Funky Dunky
I’m with you. Leave unsolved mysteries and let us speculate on and on and on.
A theory I ran by Ryan and Jen…
maybe it’ll make the podcast…though it is kinda crazy.
Hurley is the key to saving Jacob or perhaps the balance against “evil locke”.
During Jacob’s adventures through time he had several items that helped the losties…
money, a pen, and candy…
now when hurley get’s out of jail…what do we see him get? A pen, money, and candy.
Then the person he meets outside in the cab is Jacob…who tell him he’s not bad luck at all, but that his abilities are actually useful and a gift.
What if this is massive foreshadowing?
my call to ryan and jen goes into a LOT more detail…
but I figured I would post it here for you all.
@Moriah: wow that is an amazing thought- I do think we are going to see the significance of those events happening simultaneously…like in season 1 when the hatch opening and the raft kidnapping were happening at the same time. I like that theory.
@Robert A. Jones: after I read your post I rewatched “left behind” which is the episode you retell where Juliette and Kate are chained together and smokey flashes white lights at Juliette…I wonder- like you- if this is connected to the white light or even how her Character plays this VERY significant role in “The Incident” I also thought it was cool how Sawyer being a leader is foreshadowed in that episode and its Hurley who “nudges” him or “pushes” him in that direction which leads me to..
@Jesse again: You are right…I do think Hurley is going to be significant and I did not pick up on the fact that he was given those items when released form Jail…one friend said to me “Hurley is the new ‘special””. I think this is where we will learn the significance of the numbers…something having to do with Hurley.
I cant believe every time I check the blog there are so many more great ideas and theories and we were so close to the 500 posts its crazy…but the podcast has been cast….I think we could still get there… 🙂
So many posters seem to expect Juliet back for season 6. I doubt it because Elizabeth Mitchell is going to be in V next year.
I saw an interview with her and she said V was just a guest star role and it was all done now. She filmed both V and LOST at the same time. The bit about being a guest star and it’s all over could be a pre-LOST finale cover-up to avoid the obvious. As much as I don’t want it to be true, I agree she’s gone.
hey jesse again: i hope you are right..but i think that you are giving it more thought than the actual writers do…. your take on it is beautiful tho.
mark b: ive read a few posts where people are up in arms about juliette still being alive and the bomb not going off. i dont get this. basically you are saying that bomb should go off (it does) and that she should be dead (well, i think she is) so how did her being alive and the bomb not going off right awahy effect anything? it made no difference….youre upset that she survived a fall but have no prob believing that she was there in the first place (time travel) ….hmmmmmmm
@bertran
I can “believe” in time-travel because it’s pure sci-fi — suspension of belief. Most sci-fi shows/movies rely on this, many other TV dramas/cop shows do to but to a lesser extent. Over analysis kills suspension of disbelief. Suspension of disbelief also falls down when someone does something that is within my knowledge base yet breaks all the rules — like falling 100+ feet with tonnes of metal around them lives. I am sure people can find an example of someone living through such and event if they look long enough. Maybe building collapse or an earthquake survivour ? Perhaps I am being a little harsh.
However I suppose my other gripe is that the writers could easily have written it that the electromagent effect pulls Juliet into the shaft, her and Sawyer do their I love you thing, she falls, THEN Jack has to drop the bomb in and it goes off on impact. Would have been more dramatic and less jump the shark.
But hey it’s one scene, I’ll live with it.
I love this. I love everything about this! Something has been bothering me though…Way back…what was the point of Locke needing to kill his father (brought by the “magic box”) to prove his worth. Then Richard knowing he couldn’t do it so he gives John Sawyers file. Was the real John being tested even then? Or was that just twisted Ben logic? Will that be one of the story lines that just gets dropped? Will the “box” EVER be explained?
@paige, I also wondered how the ‘kill your dad’ requirement came about. Why would Jacob and/or Ben want Locke to kill his dad?
I could see that if Jacob ordered all Dharma folks killed for security of the island, then yes, Ben would have to be able to kill his father, but it’s not like Locke’s dad just happened to be living on the island and a threat to the island.
It is another reason I am not yet on board with ‘Jacob is good, Other guy is bad’ storyline. Too simple. Especially with the white and black tunics, if it were a western, they would be in white and black cowboy hats, a little too cliche for me.
I am thinking they are two greek gods playing an elaborate game testing human nature. And honestly, I will be happy with that.
I still think it is unanswered whose side Hawking and Widmore are on.
I love this show and I think this podcast makes it much more enjoyable. Thanks R&J!!!
Mark in Omaha, Sayid was reading Daniel’s journal pretty closely. Perhaps if there were detailed instructions about what to do with the bomb, combined with some general training he would have had in the military, that would have been enough for him to be able to do the deed. A bit of a stretch, I know, but no more than some other plot contrivances we accept to move the story forward. Works for me anyway!
Great podcast this season and thank you for all your effort. It’s wonderful to find good people and the proper subject worthy of such intelligent discussion.
A few comments about the last podcast. The references to friendship go far beyond just a mannerism or code word for the statue-worshippers. It’s been one of those oft repeated thematic nodes like “see you in another life.” Two quick examples. In “Because You Left,” Ben says to Jack that Hurley will be considerably easier to recruit than the rest of Jack’s friends because of his commission at Santa Rosa. Jack says, “they’re not my friends anymore.” To which Ben sarcastically replies “that’s the spirit.” Another example that occurs to me off the top of my head was when Hurley conned Sayid and Locke’s crew captured him at the barracks. I believe Ben says something to the effect of “I know it’s no good having friends if you can’t trust them.” Actually, the drink shared/the drink refused we’ve seen so many times may connect to this theme as well by being a polite offering of friendship (Widmore & the whiskey, Alpert and the OJ, tea, lemonade, milk, etc).
R & J enjoyed Ben’s line, “I’m a Pisces.” Soon it began to dawn on me that this is not a throwaway line either. Pisces, the sign of the fish. An earlier poster noted an oblique reference perhaps to Jacob being a “fisher of men” like Jesus. The use of fishing metaphor in the Bible and the astrological sign of Pisces tie together beautifully because this sign symbolized the nation of Israel in addition to its more obvious connotations. I learned in an astrology class once that the magi who foretold of the coming of a savior did so because of the appearance of a nova or great star in the sign of Pisces in the night sky. He who will save us all?
Why is Radzinski on button duty? What you need to consider is that Radzinski may be performing this duty in the swan hatch long after the purge occurs. In this case, the quarantined hatch is the last bastion and vestige of the DI. We know for sure that Kelvin remained in the hatch until 2001 AD (After Desmond). We know Kelvin mentored Sayid in the arts of torture in the first Gulf War. We know Kelvin and Radzinski shared the hatch for some time before the mad scientist quit this world. We also have some dates on the old blast door map if they hold up to scrutiny. So Radzinski must still have been there well into the 90’s. I know everyone loves to hate him, but Rad has definitely become one of my favorite characters. Compelling, I mean. He too believes he’s on a mission to change the world. I think we’re going to see remorse for the colossal mistakes he has made, isolation, perhaps madness (from the sickness), and then despair. You might have a different perspective on him at the end.
There was a comment about water keeping smokey at bay. This might apply to AJ as well. AJ tosses Jacob into the fire, an element or instrument traditionally associated with the forces of evil. Fire and Water?
It would be great if that title were intentional. I fall into the unified field camp. Every question, to the greatest extent possible, should come together in a single, elegant explanation. Everything that rises must converge.
On Rose and Bernard as Adam and Eve. I get the idea of their love and harmony making them good candidates for the pair who lived together and did not die alone in this little eden. It’s the black and white stones that make me disinclined to accept this theory. I think those stones still have a deeper symbolic significance and Rose and Bernard have now retired from the game.
Loved the comment about Locke’s shoes and Jesse Again noting the items Hurley had in possession and the backgammon game. Hurley’s a beast at every game from table tennis to horseshoes. Walt’s the only one who ever beat him–at backgammon no less.
Defend the island.
Astronomy class.
I saw a weird Lost related dream tonight which I’ll come back to in a moment.
So far, each season (except maybe for S4) has started with the point of view of some character. Wouldn’t it be cool is S6 premiered with the point of view of AJ/Dark Locke or the Smoke Monster?
Here’s the thing about my dream –
I dreamed that we saw the Island through the “eyes” of Smokey. We saw him storm around the Island and then take from of different characters. His perspective was mind-blowing, ancient and wild.
I’m not sure if I’d even like that but in my dream it was way waay cool:)
OK… How the show is going to end? Jacob or the other is going to say: “There, you have lost”.
Richard part? Referee, keeper of the rules, watcher.
A king can’t check another king. Therefore Wildmore/Ben or Jacob/other player can’t kill each others.
Once a player has been removed from the game, he can’t come back. “If I move the Island…” and “Dead is dead”. That’s what Wildmore said “I tried to come back but never succeded”. But Ben and Locke so obsessed by the Island and having been both manipulated by “the other player” did the unthinkable: recreating flight 815 to go back. So the loopehole is old leaders coming back on the board thus not playing by the rules anymore so… leader killing materials.
Did anyone noticed… Walt’s dream as occured:
John Locke is on a beach, in a suit surounded by people who wants to hurt him (well the other him)
Ho and just a thought for those who belive that “what ever happened happened”.
Charlie was saved 3 or 4 times before is real death… the steam of the water did not changed by throwing small rocks but it did some waves.
The Incident is the magnetic discharge that has to be released every 108minutes. And the safekey was the atomic bomb. But if the safekey is used in 77 what will happen?
And the last reason (except Pierre Chang arms)… Did any of you saw the last movie produced by Daemon Lindeloff? I don’t want to spoil it for anyone but let’s say that this guy knows how to do a reboot when he wants to do a reboot.
And one last thing that nobody seems to care about:
on the survivors of Oceanic 815 who is still alive?
The Oceanic 6 (so… 5 of them), Sawyer and Jin, Rose and Bernard, Vincent, some of the tail section who has been “taken”, Walt… and Claire(maybe).
I don’t think this has been mentioned but I may have missed it… remember when Locke saw the ‘monster’ in season 1 and said it was ‘beautiful’?? I don’t think he saw Smokey at that time. I think he saw Jacob!!! The second time, when Smokey grabbed him and tried to drag him down the hole, was totally different. I think both Jacob and the guy in black from the start of the show are really smoke or some form of energy, one light and one dark.
@Nancy from California
Love the idea that Locke first saw Jacob, who was “beautiful”.
Or to add creedence to the idea of dual smoke monsters, ponder Mr. Eko’s response to Locke’s statement that what he saw was beautiful. “That is NOT what I saw.”
Is Elizabeth Mitchell’s casting in the new V series proof that Juliette is, in fact, dead in season 6? http://bit.ly/D1pQH
Like others, I was disappointed with the finale. The jacob mythology was great, but the love triangle precipitating such significant events at the swan just seemed weak.
I believe reincarnation plays a significant role in what is to be revealed. In Buddhist teachings, humans continue a rebirth cycle until they reach nirvana, a state without suffering. To reach this, one must part with all attachment to material things, other people and self. Once of all of these have no importance to your life and you discover the true nature of existence, your cycle is complete. The path intended to help those achieve it is, of course, Dharma. I like the irony.
In support:
– The aforementioned reincarnation anagram on the van
– Jacob’s comment that “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.” [Nirvana is the end, the rest is the rebirth cycle]
– Jacob’s comment to Ben “what about you” meaning, neither Ben nor Jacob nor anyone else has any significance to the enlightened
– The importance of how bodies are handled
It would follow that our losties were, in a previous life, inhabitants of the island. This is why Jacob visited them in the off-island lives. And I think that each character is at a different point in their “cycle”. For example, jacob visited Sayid and Hurley after they left the island once. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin and Sun all met him before the island.
With respect to Jacob and AJ….I’m not convinced they are two separate people – and I think it is significant that AJ’s proper name wasn’t mentioned. I believe that whole first scene may have been a figurative discussion jacob was having with himself – the yin/yang that all of us have in us. Jacob/AJ, himself, is still not truly enlightened.
I was watching old episodes of Roseanne on the Oxygen network and just found out that when Roseanne’s family wins the lottery at the end of the series, the amount of money they win is $108 million!
Cool, huh??
Has anyone theorized that Jacob is actually Aaron? I have no basis for this speculation other than this: Jacob tells Locke he’s sorry for what he put Locke through, he tells Sun and Jin to hold on to what they have, I admit I don’t recall what he said to the others he met, but I seem to remember that what he said to everyone was an indication that he knew he was about to put them through something, some kind of test, that may be difficult for them, but he has to make contact with all the pawns…so the fact that he didn’t meet Claire or Juliet in the past perhaps is because he didn’t want them to have to go through that test (the test being everything the Losties have gone thru on the island which I’m assuming has been some sort of battle of wills between Jacob and A.J. all along. So the fact that Claire is his mom and that Juliet tried to help Claire by injecting her on the island is why those two were exempted from being “chosen.” Also, Claire appears to Kate and says not to bring Aaron back…perhaps because she knows that he will be killed by Ben (although it did happen nonetheless). I don’t know, I just have a feeling that Jacob is Aaron. i also feel like the Others are all people who have been subjected to this battle between Jacob and A,J. like our Losties and that at the end of the series finale, our Losties will end up being indoctrinated by the Others as the new Dharma Initiative gets underway and a new set of poor souls will crash on the island, starting the cycle anew and that the last image of the entire series will be the eye of one of the new crash passengers opening in a tight shot, just as with Jack at the very beginning of the series, then cut to black and THUD! I guess this is what you call a crackpot theory.
I’ve gone looking but I haven’t seen this idea yet:
Richard Alpert is already dead. He doesn’t directly agree with Locke’s comment about never aging, but just says he’s like that because of Jacob. Because Jacob reanimated him after he died?
What did I miss – why did everyone jump to the conclusion that The Man In Black has possessed the body of Locke? I’m confused about this part. Was there a scene in the Incident that explained this? Thanks.
Chris in Seattle: The Man in Black says, at the start of the episode, “Someday I’ll find my loophole.” At the end of the episode, Dark Locke (a.k.a. Not Locke a.k.a. Flocke) is told by Jacob, “I guess you found your loophole.”