Next: “The Incident” (Episode 5-16/17)
The Season 5 finale gave us the widest view yet of what’s been unfolding on the The Island, and for that, I’m thrilled. But the Season 5 finale also honed in on some of our character’s most petty failings, and for that, we’re both somewhat annoyed. Frankly, Jen was livid. I like the suggestion that we’ve been watching only the latest round in a perpetual battle between light and dark — one in which our survivors finally opened a “loophole” for the dark forces to gain the upper hand. I don’t like the idea that the huge, dramatic, cataclysmic detonation of the Jughead core we’ve been building up to all season came only as the result of more twists in the “para-love-ogram.”
Let’s start with what I liked. Though “like” is dependent entirely on the foolhardy presumption that my interpretation of what we’ve seen with Jacob is right. Based solely on the opening scene, no less. To wit:
Jacob is light, goodness, benevolence. His nemesis, yet unnamed, is dark, petty, judgemental. Perhaps for an eternity, they have battled on The Island. But they cannot vanquish each other directly. The Island is largely the chess board, and the pieces are men. Imperfect, flawed humans. By the time the Black Rock arrives, they’ve been through the cycle many times. Jacob summoned another group, believing they might avoid self destruction. Darkness says, “It always ends the same.”
So the Black Rock, the Dharma Initiative, perhaps even The Others, and most certainly the survivors of Flight 815… each group came to the island, struggled over leadership, and self destructed.
Richard Alpert, perpetual advisor, serves Jacob by trying to guide and protect whomever is the leader: Eloise (who Richard called his leader in 1977), Ben (whom Richard and perhaps Jacob felt was ultimately an inadequate leader), and Locke (who Richard presumed to be special, even if it was Locke that gave him that idea in the first place). Darkness, meanwhile, acts through visions, or actually possessing the form of the dead. Christian Shephard. Alex. Perhaps Claire. And, yes, the late Locke, whom we now know isn’t Locke. We’ll call him Dark Locke.
Jacob is compassionate and feels for these flawed people. He visits them, literally touches them, perhaps merely knowing their path, or perhaps steering them. However the cycle ends, he knows it must end.
But something happened with Oceanic Flight 815. Something about this last cycle was different. And the why and how are, most likely, part of what awaits in Season Six. Nonetheless, the combination of The Incident, of Desmond turning the failsafe, of Eloise sending them back on Ajira 316 but scattering them through time — this whole convoluted series events, the entirety of the last five seasons of “LOST” — has led us to the loophole. The loophole that allowed Darkness to vanquish Jacob, with Ben as his instrument.
What is the loophole?
I can only guess by guessing at the rules. Only the leader can enter the temple. There can be only one leader. And the leader, essentially, decides who wins. Darkness, through manipulating the leader with visions and the reanimated dead, has probably brought the leader to Jacob dozens or hundreds of times. Each time, the leader has probably arrived, ready to reject and kill Jacob. But once inside, alone, Jacob appeals to the leader’s better self, gives them a choice, and they always choose light.
Darkness found his loophole through Locke. I’m not sure exactly when, but Locke had been the key for a while. Locke eventually died. And, yes, Locke is still dead. But with his body returned to the island, Darkness was able to take the form of Locke, becoming Dark Locke, and bewilder everyone — including Ben and, curiously, Richard — with his knowledge of The Island. He asserts many times that he is the leader. And he repeatedly taunts Ben for never having made the cut with Jacob.
Dark Locke brings everyone to Jacob. He, the supposed leader, goes into Jacob’s lair, and insists on bringing Ben. Why? Because Ben is the leader. Ben’s been the leader ever since he returned on Ajira 316 and woke up in the infirmary, because Locke is still dead. That’s the loophole. And Dark Locke, having goaded Ben during the entire journey, looses his jealousy and insecurity and rage, and Ben, the leader, stabs Jacob and throws him into the fire.
The end?
Of course not. With his last breath, Jacob says, “They’re coming.” Who? My guess, perhaps obviously, is that “they” are everyone misplaced in time, back in 1977, who are near the Swan and subjected to the universe-twisting combination of electromagnetism and a hydrogen bomb blast. My guess for Season 6 is that everyone is reunited in 2007, but Darkness rules The Island, and the epic battle will be these imperfect, flawed humans trying to vanquish him.
But I could be completely wrong.
For example, where does the smoke monster fit? Is it an agent of Darkness? I’m inclined to think so, since it does stand in judgment of men, finding them unworthy and destroying them much as I imagine Darkness would. It could also be the agent through which Darkness assumes the form of the dead, such as both Alex and Dark Locke in the temple. Jen’s question, though, is how Ben became familiar enough with it to use it for his own means. It may be more likely that the smoke monster is a free agent.
Where do Bram and Ilana fit? Given the riddle, I guess they’re aligned with Alpert, and therefore presumably Jacob. What role will they play? I certainly hope it’s something more significant than teasing viewers with a mystery box for half a season. And if we now know that Ilana always knew Locke was in that box, she was obviously not surprised by seeing Dark Locke eating a mango in “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.” How can she not be surprised by Dark Locke, but Alpert be apparently merely suspicious? And could they actually be agents of Darkness? After all, in the opening scene in the ancient past, it’s Darkness who calls Jacob “my friend.”
And if we’ve actually been watching pawns on a chess board, manipulated by Jacob and Darkness, it’d be somewhat disheartening to imagine that the longstanding battle between crafty and clever Ben and rich industrialist Charles Widmore is essentially insignificant. There has to be more to it.
Yet, Ben was goaded into killing Jacob after decades of servitude simply by becoming a petulant, whiny, sore loser. Juliet reverses herself halfway through the “Stop Jack” mission, simply because Sawyer looked at Kate funny. And Jack admits that his talk about destiny was all a crock: he wants to detonate a deadly hydrogen bomb simply because he blew it with Kate. Sayid is shot, valiantly rigs the bomb to go off on impact, but it doesn’t. Juliet dies, but doesn’t, but does, because Jack didn’t detonate the bomb, she did. And Miles gets the throwaway line about how their actions are creating the events they’re trying to stop… all bringing us to the big dramatic blast that wasn’t, because it was effectively “defused” by all the character machinations that led up to it.
The preceding paragraph is essentially why Jen went to bed angry. Here’s hoping she’s feeling a little more charitable by the time we record our podcast.
Notes and Notions:
- Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse hinted that the end of this Season 5 finale would be like the end of the Season 1 finale, and it was. Just as we saw nothing at the bottom of the hatch after Locke finally blew it open, we saw nothing after the bright white flash of Jughead. It’s a cliffhanger in only the faintest sense of the word. No tangible piece of what may come in Season 6 beyond “they’re coming.”
- If the “what’s in the box” teases weren’t enough, what’s the deal with Hurley’s guitar case? We know Jacob gave it to him, which is great, but… really? Will we just not know? Or will it be blasted into 2007 alongside Hurley to taunt us in Season 6?
- When Juliet said, “Live together, die alone,” didn’t you want to punch her in the face?
- Juliet’s death was wrenching, but probably would’ve been moreso if she hadn’t essentially dumped Sawyer two scenes earlier. It doesn’t look good for Sayid, either. And while it was good to see Phil get skewered, I really felt Sawyer deserved to have his death under his belt, rather than a random pipe.
- I’m not sure whether Jacob’s visits with all our characters were meant to direct them to their fates or change them. They made a point of showing him physically touch each of them, tapping Kate on the nose, holding young Sawyer’s hand a moment when handing him a pen. But it seems odd that Jacob helps revive Locke after falling from a high rise, but doesn’t do much more than give Jack an Apollo Bar.
- I really liked how Rose and Bernard were handled, even if I’m pretty sure this is the last we’ll see of them (beyond perhaps more explicit confirmation that they’re the “Adam and Eve” skeletons from Season 1). Their dismay at being found was hilarious. They got the lives they always wanted, they retired from the cycle of violence, and they’re happy to die as long as they’re together. Aww…
- We saw Vincent, too, but he’s now a mystery to me. If he survives the hydrogen bomb blast in 1977, he’s not likely to still be around in 2007. Unless he’s thrown through time along with Jack and friends. I can’t think of any other way Vincent makes it to the end of Season 6, as the creators seem to suggest he will.
- I liked how Bram called Frank a “yahoo.” Since it turned out that Frank was only pretending to be unconscious, I would’ve enjoyed having him pop up to respond to the word like he did in Season 4. He also got the great line, “In my experience the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.”
- Talk about writing themselves out of a corner. Jughead already shrunk by several feet between “Jughead” and “Follow the Leader.” But after talking so much about its size and weight, turns out all we need is the core, which conveniently fits in a backpack. Now we can walk it over to the Swan!
- Some of the flashbacks were so short, and linked so plainly to the scenes that followed, I would’ve rather not seen them. Juliet’s parents got divorced, so that’s why she dumps Sawyer! Sayid watched Nadia die in the street, so that’s why he’s ready to die after being shot! Jacob recruited Ilana, and Jacob put Hurley on Ajira 316! It felt off.
- When Locke was thrown through the window, didn’t he bring a cascade of broken glass with him? The way he drops, singularly, with a thud before Jacob walks up seemed a bit strange. And were they suggesting Jacob saved Sayid’s life by pulling him back off the street?
- I can forgive Miles’ anvilicious “what if this causes the incident” epiphany because he also had the great line after Jack said the plan is not to go back in time. “Right, because that would be ridiculous.”
- Snarky Ben is fun. “I’m a Pisces.” Or, “I lied. It’s what I do.” Or when Sun asks Ben if he expects her to believe he doesn’t know about the statue. “Not really.”
- I liked that Sun found Charlie’s Drive Shaft ring in Aaron’s old crib, and that Charlie was mentioned in Jacob’s conversation with Hurley (along with Libby). Interesting how some long lost characters still get shoutouts, while many others don’t.
- Book: “Everything that Rises must Converge” by Flannery O’Connor. Interestingly, Jen’s working her way through an anthology of O’Connor short stories right now.
- Locations: Too many to list completely. Sun and Jin got married at the Byodo-In Temple in Kaneohe. Locke fell out of the Waikiki Landmark highrise on Kalakaua Avenue in Waikiki. Young Kate shoplifted from a small store near Haleiwa (the name escapes me at the moment, but we mentioned it on our podcast). Young Sawyer’s funeral was at a church in Ewa Villages. Hurley was released from the Oahu Community Correctional Center on Dillingham Blvd. Nadia was killed at the corner of Auahi and Kamani streets off Ward.
What did you think? Comment below, call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127, or e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Counting down until the finale!
Crackpot theory: THIS is the last season. They will detonate Jughead, reset time, and arrive in LA, and the show ends. It would definitely suck (and ruin the show) but I’d have to respect the cojones to pull it off!
Everyone enjoy the show tonight!
May 13th, 2009 at 7:31 am
So, who’s ready for the big finale??? I can’t wait! I’ve even opted out of cooking dinner tonight (declared it sandwich/leftover night!) so I can be uninterrupted for the whole two hours. Before tonight’s finale begins our lengthy hiatus from new Lost episodes, I thought I’d throw out some *last minute off the wall predictions* –ready?
- Whatever Locke does to Jacob, it will cause our 1977 Losties to be transported back to the present.
- We find out who/what is really in charge of the island. (It’s not Jacob, not Dharma, not even Widmore. It’s something else entirely)
- Juliette either dies in tonight’s epi or kills Kate. Or Kate kills Juliette – may be an accident but won’t look like one to others.
- Sayid sacrifices himself to stop Jack and Ellie from detonating the bomb.
- Ellie gets exiled from Hostile-ville and off the island for trying to help Jack blow up the bomb. Charles makes the choice to stay with the island instead of leave with Ellie which causes their riff. But his ties to her are too strong so he slips out and sees her off the island from time to time and that is why he is ultimately exiled himself. His people still see Ellie as a traitor who tried to get them killed and destroy the island. They don’t want him involved with her and he can’t stop seeing her. (I know kinda weak theory wise, but I’m including it).
- What’s in Hurley’s guitar case??? Something that when combined with what’s in Illana and company’s steel case will save Dharmaville from exploding when the bomb is triggered. What that might be, I don’t really know. Yes, I know – two different time lines. I think they’ll “meet” or cross some way somehow in the finale.
- Do things stay the same (Whatever happened, happened) or will there be course correcting for our time traveling friends? I think that we’ll find out definitively that circumstances can change (who does an action that causes an effect can always be different) but the ultimate outcome always remains the same.
That’s what I got. What do you think?
I’ll be back once that last thud drops!
May 13th, 2009 at 8:59 am
This is just too exciting!!
But I just need to get one thing off my chest before the episode airs: If Juliet dies, there will be hell to pay.
May 13th, 2009 at 9:16 am
I’ve been thinking – and maybe this has been discussed before and if so, sorry – what if Bram and Co. are from our Losties’ future? Like, what if, for instance, Bram is Kate’s son, you know – the one who was conceived with Jack the night before they returned to the island. And maybe she’s not even pregnant, but still, what if there is a group from the future that needs to come back to help their “parents”?
Anything’s possible on Lost, right?
May 13th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Ok …you all forgot the Island is in control. We have not seen what is under the statue or where the children went and if they are part of some other group of people or experiment or if they were transported to another time via an ancient ritual to the Gods. It’s not over and this seasons end will do what Lost does best MAKE YOU WAIT for the next bit of information.
I suspect that Locke has been try to kill Jacob and he either blotches it or completes the task so that the BOMB never explodes because it brings everyone to a present state in time but not back to where they started.
More to come on ABC.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:01 am
i really hope that if they fo the whole: plane lands in la thing, they fix it by the second episode of next season, it would be cool for like a 3 episode arc but def not for a series resolution
May 13th, 2009 at 10:26 am
I just can’t see them resetting everything by allowing them all to land on flight 815. That would invalidate all of these 5 seasons of Lost and it would be very disappointing.
I’m looking forward to tonight for some answers and resolution of the time travel arc, but I’m scared about the possibility of losing another character as we seem to have happen at this point most seasons.
I hope we see what happened with Bernard and Rose. I hope we see Sun and Jin reunited. I hope Sawyer stays with Juliet. It should be a fun evening but then a sad tomorrow since we’ll not see Lost again for 8 months!
May 13th, 2009 at 10:38 am
At the entertainment weekly there are four great videos with Darlton explaining the season thus far and what their thought process was when writing it. STay away from video four if you don’t want spoilers.
EW.com click on Lost videos.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:46 am
So many good questions about… trying to avoid spoilers is becoming harder each hour…
For LostnTonic:
“- Whatever Locke does to Jacob, it will cause our 1977 Losties to be transported back to the present.”
I don’t know, I always though that Jack’s actions would cause them to do that and poor John and Ben will have their meeting cut short becuase of it.
“- We find out who/what is really in charge of the island. (It’s not Jacob, not Dharma, not even Widmore. It’s something else entirely)”
Meh…not too sure on that one…
“- Juliette either dies in tonight’s epi or kills Kate. Or Kate kills Juliette – may be an accident but won’t look like one to others.”
How about they both kill eachother and then Sawyer dates whichever one of them the island brings back
“- Sayid sacrifices himself to stop Jack and Ellie from detonating the bomb.”
I don’t know why he’d stop the bomb from going off, he’s got as much at stake as jack. Moreso I would say. He gets back Nadia.
“- Ellie gets exiled from Hostile-ville and off the island for trying to help Jack blow up the bomb. Charles makes the choice to stay with the island instead of leave with Ellie which causes their riff. But his ties to her are too strong so he slips out and sees her off the island from time to time and that is why he is ultimately exiled himself. His people still see Ellie as a traitor who tried to get them killed and destroy the island. They don’t want him involved with her and he can’t stop seeing her. (I know kinda weak theory wise, but I’m including it).”
Possibly?!?!
“- What’s in Hurley’s guitar case??? Something that when combined with what’s in Illana and company’s steel case will save Dharmaville from exploding when the bomb is triggered. What that might be, I don’t really know. Yes, I know – two different time lines. I think they’ll “meet” or cross some way somehow in the finale.”
I actually like this idea most of all. From what I saw today on the view clip on Dark Ufo Hurley’s story will be told tonight.
“- Do things stay the same (Whatever happened, happened) or will there be course correcting for our time traveling friends? I think that we’ll find out definitively that circumstances can change (who does an action that causes an effect can always be different) but the ultimate outcome always remains the same. ”
I’m pretty sure the actions of the bomb’s explosion cause the incident. From what I remember Sayid said back in season 2 that he hadn’t seen anything like the concrete around the core of the Swan except at chernobyl (spelling?)..
Here’s my thoughts on what I think might happen… based off the “next week on lost”
Sawyer, Kate, Juliet: I don’t know why I see this happening, but in GRAND(extreme sarcasm) TV tradition Kate and Juliet will start bickering and Sawyer will get caught up in it, they’ll yell and yell and then Phil (think that’s the guy who beat up Juliet) will come over and be all “quiet down!!!” and get in their faces and…POW it was all an elaborately disguised escape plan and they’ll pull a “sayid neck break with your legs” move and get the keys to escape, take over the sub and head back cause kate will be like “we have to stop jack and save everyone else!”
Jack, Sayid, Elle, and Alpert: I still can’t figure out why Jack is gunnin’ down Dharmaville, but I’m sure I’ll enjoy it. Needless to say, there’s no way they can move a Nuke of that size anywhere…especially trapped where it is. They’ll yank the core and try and detonate it with dynomite? (maybe from the black rock!?…it is there is the 70s right?) Maybe since the bomb is located under dharmaville we’ll get to see more infor on Ben’s little switch room..? maybe?
Needless to say, I think Jack is gonna go full on Locke crazy. But in the end he’ll live…
Jin, Hurley, Miles: I don’t care how it happens, I don’t care when it happens…but I want them to run over someone in a Dharma Vanagon!!!!
That’s all I ask.
Ben, Locke, Alpert, Sun: I’m hoping Locke kill reveal some amazing secret tonight when they meet jacob…but I’m almost certain there will be SOOOOOME person who’s with him to screw it up and piss me off.
Sun might be all “ooooh we’re not here for Jin!!!” and ruin it.
Ben might pull….a Ben, and try to kill Locke.
Hell, I’m sure Ben’s already stolen Locke’s shotgun and Locke hasn’t realized it missing >_<
Just my thoughts.
Ok here’s my thoughts on tonight
Kate, Juliet, Sawyer: I can already see it now… and i’m cringing… in the GRAND TRADITION (extreme sarcasm) of television, Juliet and Kate will get into an argument and Sawyer will try to calm them down, they all start arguing and Phil (the dude who beat up juliet) will come over and be all “enough!” and get in Sawyers face. And while he’s not paying attention Kate will break his next with her legs all Sayid style and steal the keys, taking over the sub and cause kate gives some “WE’VE GOT TO GO BACK!” speech, they head back to stop Jack. ….watch it happen….
Jack, Sayid, Alpert, and Elle: I don’t know how one moved a megaton bomb, but I assume you don’t….especially without equipment. So I can assume they’ll have to take it apart and maybe detonate the core? ooooooh could they use dynamite from the black rock? Or would that be a paradox since I think they took the crate in the future… anyway, he’s gonna take the core to the swan and booooom… yes, I’m confident they’ll blow the damn thing up. Didn’t sayid say back in season 2 that he hadn’t seen anything like the concrete poured around the chamber in the swan except at chernobyl? (spelling?) NO CLUE why he’s shootin’ up dharmaville, but I’m sure I’ll enjoy that scene.
Hurley, Jin, Miles: I don’t care when… i don’t care how… All I want to see is them run over someone in a dharma van! Get it done Darlton!
Locke, Ben, Alpert, Sun: I’ll be honest, I have no clue what’s gonna happen here… I assume we’ll get just a little bit more than usual, but like all things with Jacob, it’ll be cut short and we’ll miss out on the most important piece of the puzzle. I’m sure, locke will do something stupid like trust ben, or mistakenly let Sun known they aren’t there to save anyone… and something will go wrong and poor Locke, who always gets most cocky before getting completely owned will once again end up being shot, stabbed, maimed, etc…etc…etc.. and Alpert will be all “is my eye liner running?”
May 13th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Jesse,
The good news is that there have been really no huge spoilers for tonight. We’ve seen some clips released by ABC and some tid-bits in interviews with the cast and producers, but no full synopsis of the episodes and for that, I am grateful.
May 13th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
The Stakes tonight have never been higher. So much is on the table, so much is on the line. Lets hope whatever happens happens.
Sayid…please save the day.
May 13th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
hahahahahaaaaa, I love it John Fischer!
“Hurley, Jin, Miles: I don’t care when… i don’t care how… All I want to see is them run over someone in a dharma van! Get it done Darlton!”
Me too, me too! I vote for Phil – I want to see that guy go DOWN!
May 13th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I’m sure it means something, but Ben is narrating the Lost in Time recap.
May 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Im sure its merely because Michael Emmerson has a gnarly voice.
May 13th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I think the reason Hurley came back to the island has to do with the 3rd group (shadow of the statue people). I think whatever is in his guitar case is something from them. Evidence that the 3rd group is interested in getting the O6 back to the island is that Ilana had Sayid in custody and it was obviously not for the reason she told him. I think they confronted Hurley the same way they did with Miles and they convinced him to come back.
May 13th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Allow me to be the first one to say…
WHAT THE F***
May 13th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Terrific.
May 13th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
* Dramatic juxtaposition between Lockes jacob-killing quest and our losties in 77 tell me their connected. The incident creates Jacob. Im trying to figure out the Jacob-Horace connection (Horace builds hut, traps Jacob by the ash (or something) surrounding the hut. And yeh, i’d say Jack is jacob. Don’t think its travelling through time.
* Predicting Juliets death
* Hoping somehow next season involves some losties during the time of the purge. Perhaps after the finale, everyone in 77 are brought to the early 90s. I don’t think we’ll get a great reunion yet… or not for everyone
* ‘If’ Illiana and co aren’t dharma… could they be hanso? Are there any major questions still wanted answering regarding hanso.
* Im so so so so hoping the lost experience valenzi equation stuff finally gets worked back in. The mission of dharma on the island seems to be so vague still
* Bomb doesnt explode, but it leaks, requiring it to be planted in concrete.. perhaps
May 13th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Best line so far…
Bernard to Sawyer, “Son of a bitch.”
May 13th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Jacob is the guy who peed on the Dude’s fucking rug!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
I think this ep is the Shark Jumper…
Put yourself in Kate/Jack/Juliet’s shoes.
Would you wanna blow yourself up on a theory that it will reset everything?
Even if it worked, YOU would still be dead!
This episode is stupid so far.
And how are they gonna explain Jacob and the Shadow People AND close on the series in the next 17 episodes.
May 13th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
So much to say that I can’t even articulate it. I’ll just say this so far: really good finale. I’ll have to see the whole thing before giving it a grade. Seeing Jacob is a huge treat though.
May 13th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Hm… I didn’t catch the first few but is Jacob physically touching every Lostie? That has to have some significance.
May 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen, we are watching the greatest episode of Lost ever.
May 13th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
If Sayid dies, i dont know what Im gonna do…
May 13th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Bye Juliet. *tear*
May 13th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Wow. I laughed out loud at the ending. At least it’s not a disappointing cliff hanger. It is definitely a cliff hanger though. Consider my mind blown, folks.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
that was sooooooooo awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
How can they make us wait for next year???
What an ending!!!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Going to have to agree with Knives on this one. So good!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I will save all my words for my Transmission Phone call…
but everyone…
We have just seen the greatest episode of LOST thus far…
Things will never be the same again.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I second both of Knives Monroe’s comments: WTF and the greatest episode. The emotion I feel is that everything is coming together, much like the brief moment when the “LOST” title comes into focus. This is simply the best show ever. I hated to see Juliet fall down the hole, but feel vindicated that she served her purpose and set-off Jughead. Looks like Locke will have his hands full next season.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Son of A @###
May 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Can anyone translate what the answer to the “what lies in the shadow of the statue” question? I couldn’t even tell what language it was.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
best episode ever, no contest. A million topics to discuss.
I guarantee that next season will be about the Island being ran by the other guy with Jacob, and the Losties are now back in 2004.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
What was the deal with Locke?? Is he really the smoke monster??
May 13th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
What do you call the whatever that is Locke? Guy #2? the Locke Ness Monster?
I want to think that the Jacob in all these flashbacks was guy number 2 the entire time.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
So they killed Locke, Juliet and Sayid in 1 episode.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
he is the other guy that is trapped with Jacob, who could be the smoke monster.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
So far as I can tell, new Lock is the Anti-Jacob, what does it mean, I don’t know.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
AWESOME season finale. the best so far. From what I understood, every single theory about LOST that has ever been thrown out (that I know) goes out the window. We are all even more LOST and confused about what this show is really about. Thank you LOST producers, creators, and writers: You’ve delivered the most amazing TV show ever.
My only dissapointment is that after being in Dharmaville for three years, Sawyer, Jin, Miles, Hurley and Juliet must have really come to learn what the Dharma Initiative was all about, and what their conflict with the Hostiles was. Nevertheless, we did not.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
so Jacob brought john to life after his fall
May 13th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
@ Jason from virginia
I did not understand the exact words, but I could tell it was Latin.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
My reaction to the season finale: Holy poo!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
it looks to me that the scene where the statue gets knocked around will be important, and also i think the Richard IS the black rock captain, judging by scene 1.
Jacob was the ultimate good guy, but now the ultimate villian seems to be in charge, and that might be rough.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
@Laura. No, remember at some point reincarnation was discussed? I don’t remember if it was Darlton or not but it was discussed at some point. In the first couple minutes of this episode, whoever the other guy talking to Jacob was did some body hopping. I think it’s pretty safe to say that he was Alex and ZombieLock both. This parallels with Jesus (Jacob), Judas (Ben) … but I’m not exactly sure who the other guy would be, other than Satan.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Man, if Juliet wasn’t my favorite character already…
This reminded me a lot of the season 2 finale, when Desmond turned the failsafe key. I don’t think Juliet’s gone. But damn…what a hero.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
I think what lies in the shadow of the statue sounded like the fountain of youth. Can anyone else confirm this?
May 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Holy freakin’ crap! (I owe $5 to John fom NC for borrowing his catch-phrase =] )
I have NO idea where we’re going to go from here.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
OMG… I can´t belive that ending. I hate you Darlton, how can you expect me to wait a year to know what happens next…OK I admit it best finale yet
May 13th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Ok, I don’t even know what to say….
The original Locke wasn’t Locke…
The original Jacob wasn’t Jacob…
Jacks plan actually may have worked?!?!
So….what do we know mythos wise after this…
1. Jacob and his “friend” (who both for living forever and ever seem incredibly americanized
) are around on the island during the time of the Black Rock arrival and Jacob’s friend is none too happy about people being on his island.
2. Jacob is working on a tapestry of some sort. From the little bit we saw, it looked like it had several wavy waves eminating from something and people either in shock or worshiping it….maybe that’ll come into play in the last season.
3. Jacob has been in the lives or nearly every lostie and in some way for some reason directed them to the island.
4. John Locke was played, by what I can only assume was Jacobs “friend”. From what I can gather, in order to trick Locke, Ben took him to the old cabin in the woods which is where they had trapped the “friend” and this other entity saw in Locke a chance to escape. And used it…which is why the trick Ben tried to play on Locke turned into Locke’s first encounter with something Ben doesn’t understand at all.
5. Richard I am now more than ever willing to bet is from the original black rock crew and was tasked with protecting Jacob or some such. This is why he lived forever?
THINGS I AM TOTALLY CONFUSED ON:
1. Where are the losties?!?! Did they reset?!?! Did it just take them back to the start of season 1 (hint of the eye?)
2. If evil Locke is really Jacobs friend….
Then why is it he didn’t know how to find Jacob? Jacob was chillin’ out by that temple for a long time.
3. Is Jacob’s friend…. the smoke monster?!?
Cause that’s the only thing we’ve seen so far that can take other people’s shapes.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
@Jason from Virginia.
I know its Latin but I forgot to record it . Not to mention how fast he said it and mumbled .
wow this was pretty close to the season one ending . But my goodness What a not shocking ,yet shocking ending. I mean I don’t even have a theory on how the heck they are going to continue with the final season. Maybe my mind is just blown and I need to absorb some more .
May 13th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
WOW! JUST WOW! This episode was by far the greatest ever and throughout the various teases during the episode of what was in the box I never would have guessed that it was John Locke! Also, for a moment there i felt Christian would be the one to stop Jack from nuking the whole island. My hope for next season is that it all begins again, but our Losties have full awareness/memory of past events thus it will be the same time frame as season 1 but the Losties know exactly what to do and exactly who each other are. Anyways, greatest episode ever and seeing Juliet go was sad and i’m not completely sure if shes “gone”. However, i always got the feeling Juliet knew much more than what she was saying and i never truly felt she had everyone’s best interests at heart. Also, I predict next season Ben finds a way to manipulate himself to the top once again, now that he has hit rock bottom he can use his strengths to their full potential…of course all this relies on what happens once Juliet sets jughead off…Cannot wait for next season!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Oh, and please… now that we know tha tJohn Locke is really dead, let us stop calling that other guy also played by Terry O’Quinn “John Locke”…. I would go with what someone already said: the Anti-Jacob…
May 13th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
So did Jacob save Sayid or have something to do with Nadia’s death? It seems like Jacob is supposed to be the good character here, but that scene has me a little confused.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Oh and I like how in the first 3 minutes of the show they set us up with the giant realization that everything we had seen for 5 season wasn’t the real “war”. Though it was slightly cliche to see Jacob in white and his friend in black…
but that was a clear sign of showing us exactly who was good and who was bad in all of 5 seconds.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Well, OK, but I was expecting something more. It just seemed like the finale stood around chewing gum for about an hour, just letting the “tension” stretch as far as possible. And in the end, big deal. We knew all along that detonation of the bomb was a 50% probability, so for the ending to be as simple as that was not the height of imagination. And the melodrama was a little thick. (“Dad!”) There were some nice touches in the episode, like the scene with Rose & Bernard, but mostly we have the same unanswered questions we had last week. We know what Jacob looks like, but what and/or who is he?
I’m loyal to Lost, so I’ll hang in for the last season. But this finale represents a kind of arrogance on the part of the show’s producers, knowingly leaving millions of people speculating impotently for a full year. Some of us are fine with that, I guess.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
could Jacob’s friend be Richard Alpert before he stopped aging
May 13th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
“Though it was slightly cliche to see Jacob in white and his friend in black…
but that was a clear sign of showing us exactly who was good and who was bad in all of 5 seconds.”
Jesse — I agree 100%. More was said with that visual than in any sort of dialogue.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
I also think we may have seen the last of Rose & Bernard. It seems more clear than ever (at least to me) that they are indeed Adam & Eve.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
eh
May 13th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
for sure Juliet is not dead for good though… and the Locke impostor is the guy who was talking to Jacob in the beginning. the war that Witmore was talking about is between those two guys- jacob and unnamed dude…. has to be
but i cried and cried when juliet fell and swayer was holding on to her…. she has to live ….
May 13th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
2010 – Destiny Found
Its going to be a long wait.
Crazy episode, can’t wait to hear everyones reactions
May 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Well, I’d say something significant has changed in the timeline. Richard (Ricardus, the original Jack Sparrow?) mentioned seeing the Oceanic Class of ‘77 Losties die. How could that be with this scenario? (…unless the ‘77 losties could run really fast and the drilled silo could harness the explosion. That’s a big stinking pile of maybe.)
Great season closer. I love the way they started with Jacob and his Moriarty on the beach, since that seems to be what all this has been about and where (thematically and geographically) the whole season was moving.
Can’t wait for our Latin scholars to weigh in on the Answer to the Question AND on the tapestry’s text. Screen caps should be up by morning.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
All the “Phil-haters” (and I’m one of them) had to be pleased with this episode.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I am just confused and not at all happy. We were left with almost no answers and tons of questions. So John Locke is dead as in “Dead is Dead,” so I assume that the entity in his body is that enemy of Jacob that we saw in the first scenes of the episode. Who is he? Juliet appears to be dead but if she is so are all of our 1977 Losties.
The producers promised that this episode would put an end to the time travel, but I don’t see how it did unless it did reset everything to 2004. If that happened I will be really pissed.
I just don’t know what to think about this episode and I am so upset that we have to wait 8 months to see how it turns out.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
lol, jim you are missing the point by a mile.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
this episode left me as confused as ever,…awesome! A total game changer.
i’m not even going to speculate, just crawl in a cave and hibernate until next year.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
@ Jesse
I think that the tapestry was of the sun disk, Aton. It is represented as having beams that touch all of humanity. The interesting thing about Aton was that it was a cult that only lasted during the reign of Akhenaton. Akhenaton essentially got rid of all other gods and worshipped only Aton. Some scholars argue, quite controversially, that Aton was the first example of monotheism in the world and that the Hebrews perhaps drew inspiration from the brief dominance of the Aton cult-Moses was in Egypt about 100 years later.
I have no idea what this would mean for Lost, but that’s what I think the tapestry was. Man am I glad I took an Egyptian history class last semester-never knew it would come in handy with my favorite TV show!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Ok…I have been thinking…
is hurley’s guitar case important at all? I thought for sure there was something special in it…or was it simply just his thing to bring on the flight from the previous people?
May 13th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Argh I’m so conflicted! On one had it was a very satisfying episode with great answers, character development and substance but on the other hand I really loved Sawyer and Juliet (why not take Kate destiny huh?) and hated to see her go!
I think I’m just bummed because I guessed a few episodes ago who was ‘in the box’ and I felt they made it kind of obvious (of course I had no idea how or why) but I really really hope Jacob will be back. (And didn’t it seem like he KNEW this would happen?)
May 13th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
I need to go back and watch the episode in season 1 when Locke explains backgammon to Walt. It seems like its blacks turn now?
May 13th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
The writers just keep upping the ante – this finale had not one, but TWO climactic endings.
Here’s my admittedly simplistic take; I’m sure others with more intellectual depth will be able to come up with much more:
So Jacob and friend appear to be caught in an infinite time loop. As Jacob is bringing people to the island and calling it ‘progress’ until they meet their end, his friend despises him for it. As @ Jesse Again noted from above, the friend figured out how to use ‘Locke’ to return and, as Jacob noted, he ‘found a loophole’. Jacob is killed and now a new future arises – out of the previous time loop. And a new future arises for the 815ers as well, as Daniel breaks the loop by dropping a boulder in the stream. Very cool concurrent themes. Leading us to something different – yet the same – for season 6. Wow.
What really blows me away is that the lens keeps pulling out farther and farther. We thought it was a battle between the Losties and the Others, then we thought between the Others and Dharma, then we thought between Ben and Widmore, and now it appears everyone was simply pawns in a bigger game between Jacob and friend. So who are they ??
May 13th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
If everything gets reset though, and none of what we’ve seen has happened and their’s no time travel – did the first 5 seasons matter?
May 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Will go back and read comments after posting this … just my own initial thoughts. First, I’m surprised that we didn’t find out more about what was in the guitar case. I wouldn’t be surprised if it had something that somehow proves that Jacob is right and that Hurley is blessed … and makes Hurley realize how blessed he is. I have no idea what specifically that could be yet but oh well.
Once Illiana and Co brought the box to the statue, I thought “it’s Locke’s body.” That said, before this episode, even though I thought Locke was acting strange, I still thought it was Locke. But that first scene of the episode changed my mind a bit.
I figure that Jacob and the man we saw telling him that he’d find a loophole are opposite sides of a God/Devil dichotomy, with Jacob most likely as the God part of the equation. But hey, anything’s possible, right? After that first scene, I figured the “Devil” character (I’ll assume Jacob is God for the purposes of this comment) was either directing Locke or posing as Locke … that or he was Richard Alpert. I did notice that he and Alpert didn’t have the same color eyes but it still seemed like a possible long-shot. I was glad when it turned out he wasn’t Alpert and that it appears the “Devil” has used Locke’s persona to find his loophole.
It was very interesting to see all the religious undertones and overtones. They’ve always been there but I don’t think ever to this extent. All of Jacob’s interactions with the characters were moving but none more so than Ben’s moment with Jacob. I look forward to hearing what people who know more about religion than I do to see what their thoughts are.
There were things that bothered me about the episode, including how Juliet changed her mind multiple times. At least Sawyer expressed frustration that many in the audience probably felt too and we got a decent answer out of Juliet. And as frustrating as it is that we don’t know what happened when Juliet detonated the bomb, I’m so glad that we saw she was at least alive for that to happen. There is still some trace of hope that the bomb somehow transports our Losties to a different time … ideally 2007 where Sun and the Others are. I personally hope that we still stick to the “whatever happens, happens” rule of time travel with the bomb going off in the “pocket” of energy will set the course of time we’ve already seen while also putting Juliet, Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Jin and Miles in a different time, appearing to have died but actually safe and ready to join the good side of a fight that is likely to happen between the “Devil” and those fighting on behave of Jacob.
I am surprised that Sawyer wasn’t the one to kill Phil but it is fitting that he’d die in a way fairly similar to good ‘ole Frogurt
Alright, back to read all the of the comments.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Oh, wow. That was crazy. Who is Jacob’s friend? Did Jacob represent good while the other guy represented evil? Did Evil just win? Would the writers do that just to say that the good guys don’t always win?
If Jacob can seemingly bring someone back to life (Locke after he fell out the window) does that mean he is really dead? Can’t he just heal himself?
Glad to see Rose and Bernie. I probably would have done something similar if I was their age and in their situation. Living out life on a beach near the ocean doesn’t sound too bad.
My mind is still unsettled by it all really. Good thought provoking show.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Just a few observations:
What if the “Jacob” that was turning up in the Lostie’s lifes wasn’t Jacob at all but the evil guy on the beach with Jacob. I think that is why Lock # 2 (or evil guy) told Jacob that it has taken him a long time to find that loop hole.
Did Jacob tell Lock #2 before he died that they are coming? Was he talking about the losties? Very confusing!!
Did anyone else like the beatings that Jack and Sawyer gave each other? I think that in some weird male way that the beating brought them closer together.
Can’t wait for the Podcast!! Loved the episode and can’t wait to watch it again!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
i mean, the entire existence of LOST changes now, it totally does.
Its a bigger war than we could imagine, its like Jacob said to Ben “What about you?” Our people are so unimportant now it is insane.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I hate Damon Lindelof. I hate Carleton Cuse. How DARE they give us this episode, sit back and LAUGH at us, and then make us wait EIGHT FRIGGIN’ MONTHS until the next episode to tell us what’s gonna happen next!!?!?!!??!!!
DAMN them to HELL!!!!
P.S. Awesome episode – it may replace “The Constant” as my favorite, but I haven’t decided yet, since Desmond wasn’t in this one. And I love Rose and Bernard’s perspective on the whole thing.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
@Moriah
I too had issue with the guitar case, but I think us fans hyped it up more than anything. After the convo with Jacob in the car (which spawned a major theory I am emailing Ryan and Jen on now) the guitar case seemed less like something that had a hidden thing it and more like just a guitar that was similar to charlies in order to get as many things the original people had and get them back to the island.
Also, that scene with Jacob and Ben to me came off as strange, but after thinking about it..
if Jacob is indeed the good “god” character then he can’t plead with Ben to make the right choice, ben has to do it on his own. So when Ben doesn’t it’s just what I assume Jacob knew was going to happen all along.
The question remains who is the “they’re coming” refer to…
the losties? coming back?
May 13th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Hey all,
My wife deduced that the guitar case that “didn’t belong to Jacob” was Charlie’s. Great insight. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that it’s not a guitar in there, though.
Also, someone posted on another message board that the translation of the answer to What lies in the shadow of the statue is, “He who will save us all.” Can anyone confirm that?
May 13th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Just saw the ending of the episode and have a pretty good theory….The guy we saw at the beginning of the episode with Jacob obviously takes over the body of Locke and becomes the anti-Jacob. I think that this guy has been taking over the bodies of any dead bodies on the island. He took over Christan Shepard’s body when the plane crashed and used this body to direct Locke to do what he needed to do (ie. turn the donkey wheel). This leads ultimately to Locke getting off the island and dying. I’m sure this same guy has also taken the place of Claire’s body, Alex’s body, Echo’s brother, etc. Why? Only the leader can get into see Jacob. Therefore, the mystery man at the beginning must use all these bodies in order to see Jacob and thus kill him. Hope this makes sense, I’m sure there is much more to elaborate on this theory!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
“What lies in the shadow of the statue?”
“The one Every Person serves”
Could the story of lost really be the long lost fued between Jacob and …… Esau?
I am still wondering what happended between the time of the Black Rock (loved that) and 1977. It certainly appears to me that the “Smoke Monster” was not active on the Island in the 1970’s and the incident is what released him from the pocket of energy containing him.
So Dead is Dead….Christian Sheppard is dead, John Locke is dead and it seams to me that Jacob’s enemy has been manipulating things from afar. He is the one from Jacob’s cabin and HE is the one who said “HELP ME!”
May 13th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
My first impression to the “they’re coming” was that Jacob was talking about Richard, Ilana, etc coming to protect Jacob from the “Anti-Jacob-posing-as-John-Locke”.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Some quick comments I hope to expand on later.
If the smoke monster commanded Ben to follow every word of the new Locke, the dark impostor, then does that make smokey an agent of the dark side? It would have to know the real Locke was dead.
Loved the loom on which Jacob weaves the skein of fate. Great symbolism. Yet it seems as if they’re asking us to imagine a system in which free will is an integral part of the master tapestry. Ben had a choice, but because of his Salieri complex, he killed the divine that bid him to obey, but never shone the light on him that it did on the most favored.
“The machine is stuck. It just needed a little push.” Jacob’s way of telling us the problem that he brought our characters together to fix.
So the others and the statue-worshippers are on the same side? Have we not even glimpsed the true evil that awaits?
Great finale, as always.
Defend the island.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Loved it! So good to see Bernard, Rose and Vincent again! And their reaction to seeing Juliet, Sawyer and Kate…LOL!!
So, when exactly did the “Devil” take over Locke’s body??
This showing is amazing. It’s going to be a rough 8 months! Thankfully there are re-runs on the Sci-Fi channel!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
By the way, what Richard said was “ILLE QUI NOS OMNES SERVABIT” which means that which we all will serve. Just letting everyone know.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I’d like to suggest we call Jacob’s “friend” “AJ”, i.e. “Anti-Jacob”.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I can see that I am in the minority here, but I thought this was the weakest of all the season finales. Not because of the cliff hanger ending–I expect that with Lost. But because I thought there was too many new elements introduced and too many different plots going on. It was very disjointed. Why not put all the Jacob stuff (flashbacks) in a regular episode (titled “Jacob”) If all the character mini-flashbacks had included Jacob, it would have been a little more unified. But why throw in Illana in a mini-flash when we hardly know the character. Give her the full treatment if you want us to learn about her character. And I am having a hard time suspending disbelief on the fact that a bomb rigged to detonate on impact by SAYID can fall hundreds of feet and not explode, but bang a little rock against it and POW! I know they had to make Juliet’s death heroic, but there could have been a better way to do it. I’m just glad we didn’t have to see her ripped in half (was anybody else worried about that with those chains around her waist?). To me, she was the strongest female character (and one of the strongest characters period) and I am sad to see her go. I was baffled as to why Jack’s little speech about being so sure about this was all it took for Kate to change her mind.
I did love seeing Rose and Bernard again (and Vincent!). “We’re retired.” That was probably a highlight for me. Emerson and Holloway’s performances stood out as well. And Phil got what we knew he had coming.
Maybe I’ll like it better on a second viewing, but I enjoyed all the previous finales a whole lot more.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Jessie, I agree to a point. I think they are playing the Pilot vs Jesus thing with Ben and Jacob. Jacob knew Ben was going to kill him which is why he never liked, or favored, him. All Jacob could do is tell him to make a choice and he made the one Jacob knew he would fulfilling ‘destiny’.
Well then again Ben is almost like Judas and Pontious put together.. I don’t know my head hurts =)
I’m just guessing too that Jacob set in motion Jack, Kate, Hurly and crew to eventuallly end up at the island so they could help fight off his evil buddy.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
HAM in MO – I believe what you are saying to be true, since the new Locke tells Jacob, you wouldn’t believe the trouble I’ve been through… I’m paraphrasing, but it went something like that.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Um… wow….?
I think I’ll leave the deeper thoughts to everyone else, but a few observations I made:
-Juliet’s not dead!!! Hurray!! (Or at least, not any deader than the other Losties stuck in the 70’s.)
-The entire opening gave me *serious* chills, start to finish. But it hit me really hard that Jacob and The Other Guy was distinctly 2009-esque, and not at all as though they had been on the Island since the Sphinx. It seemes to me like the writers would make some kind of an effort to to present a different tone if that’s what they were going for, so what are they going for?
-Loved, loved, loved everyone’s reaction to Miles’ very logical question. Our main cast can be a load of extremely determined idiots, sometimes, and I loved that Miles called them on it.
-It hadn’t occurred to me that it might occur to Sawyer to go back and stop his parents from being murdered.
-My brother noticed that Jacob gave something to everyone encountered/stalked except Jin/Sun, Locke, and Sayid. I noticed that except for Sayid–who was brought on Ajira by force by Ilana– everyone who did get something was zapped off the plane into the 70’s. Could this have been another sort of list?
-I shrieked out loud when Locke was in the box. Did not see that coming in a million years.
-Charlie’s ring returns!!!! (That, I did call.)
-Terry O’Quinn was fantastic when he was revealed (to us) as The Other Guy. He was still 98% Locke, but there was something ever so slightly different about him…
-Michael Emerson was also phenomenal when he was confronting Jacob. I got this crazy sense of a child begging his parents for attention, and for the first time ever, I had a vague impression of Ben as, dare I say it, pure of motive. I doubt it will last, but still. Very interesting.
-Jacob is terrifying and awesome. Too bad he’s toast.
-Noticed also that this is the second (or third, if you count season three) year in a row that Locke has spent the end of the finale in a box.
-I wasn’t a fan of the relationship dialogue. It was stilted and awkward, and not particularly well delivered, and I don’t think it was a strong enough motivator for any of them to do the things they were doing.
-I’m less inclined to think that the Ajira people are Dharma returned now. I am now more inclined to believe that they are “good,” though.
-What did my dear, darling Richard say in response to Ilana’s question?
-Finally, I want a tee-shirt that says, “I don’t speak destiny.” (Yes, it was over-previewed, but still a good line.)
Literally can’t wait for the podcast!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Ok i figured it all out. The bomb goes off but it doesn’t send anyone back to the present time. Instead they go with the Others and drink from the fountain of life and live on the island until present time reuniting with everyone. Now the thing with John and Jacob… you got me.
May 13th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Danie…
I laughed when I read your bit about Juliet and the chains…
I too thought in the back of my mind “oh lord, they’re gonna rip her in half…that way we know she’s dead”
May 13th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Jack has got to be the only doctor who has killed more people than he’s saved!!
May 13th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
@HAM in MO Says: you just blew my mind! I never considered the possibility. I’m still not completely on board, though, because why would the Anti-Jacob/Devil character have to pose in Jacob’s body? It’s not like any of the Losties would recognize him? But yeah … possible and very, very interesting.
@Jesse Again: every time anyone mentioned Hurley’s guitar case, I’d just say to myself “it’s probably not a big deal. Don’t blow it out of proportion.” But I did still somehow convince myself we’d see the inside of it tonight. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is Charlie’s guitar or a similar guitar but (I’m pretty sure this is common knowledge but it may be a spoiler … a bit of a hint from Jorge Garcia …) I’m pretty sure Jorge Garcia said something on the Jay and Jack podcast about how it might not even be a guitar. I think that’s what got the hype going into high gear in the first place. *sigh* I guess we’ll know for sure in a year
May 13th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Thank god for super Lost fans:
When Richard is asked what lies in the shadow of the statue
a nice Lost fan (drockin13 over at 4815162342.com) got the subtitles
“ille qui nos omnes servabit”
and from what he looked up it pretty much means
“He who will save us all”
May 13th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
@Jason from Virginia
I’m partial to calling him “The Other Guy”, myself. Or perhaps Moses, as Ben said.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Wow, nice! Thanks for posting that, @Jesse Again!
I hope my mind stops racing so I can sleep at some point. haha
May 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
From the flashbacks, the very compassionate-seeming Jacob, through his interactions with our Losties, seems to mess up their lives in the guise of empathy. He asks Kate “You’ll never steal again, Katie?”, he gives Sawyer a pen(cil) so he can finish the letter that will rule his life, and by asking for help from Sayid, enables Sayids wife to be killed. All of these actions send these characters to (or back to) the island.
Jacob seems like the devil who can quote scripture – a person who sets people down some very dark paths with a kind word.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
@moriah
but who is “he who will save us”
If they’re refering to Locke… i don’t think so…
If they’re refering to Jacob…he’s dead..
If they’re refering to Ben….lord help us.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Forgot to add – the Jacob and Esau story from the Bible has always lurked in the back of my mind in regards to Lost.
In the Bible story…at the urging of his mother Rebekah, Jacob pretends to be Esau, in order to steal from Esau Isaac’s (their father) blessing and birthright — which in theory Esau had agreed to give to Jacob. As a result, Jacob becomes the spiritual leader of the family after Isaac’s death and the heir of the promises of Abraham (Gen. 27:37).
Esau, naturally, is furious and vows to kill Jacob (Gen. 27:41). Once again Rebekah intervenes to save her youngest son Jacob from being murdered by her eldest son, Esau.(Wikipedia)
So I’ll call the other guy on the beach “Esau” for lack of anything else.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I did not in a million years guess that this episode would be a Jacob flashback! What a great beginning of the finale. I loved seeing the Black Pearl. (again a white/black reference) Yes, Jacob made it a point to touch everyone, and visit them at a turning point in their life, where they could choose which path to take. It also appeared that he brought John back to life when he fell.
Lock’s vision with the black and white eyes makes sense now.
I really loved this episode and one of the main reasons is that nothing was predictable. There are so many shows where I feel that I could have written the scrip since I know exactly what will happen. I know above else now that Damon and Carlton have a firm plan in mind and all will make sense one day. So many pieces coming together.
I have all the episodes from this season on tivo, I am going to watch them all again.
Now more than ever I think Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve. They just want to die together.
One pet peeve – why does it all come down to Kate!! Jack, Sawyer and Julliet all doing everything because of her.
Can’t wait for the podcast or Ryan’s blog.
Knives – totally thought of you when Sayid got shot. He better live! I think Jacob saved him, he knew that the car would hit Sayid as well.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Who broke the circle of ash? I think this removed Jacob’s migrating sanctuary and allowed Dark Heart to exercise the loophole.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
I guess those black and white stones from the cave and the chess, back gammon , countless other good vs. evil references came into play.
Very The Standish. Especially with the black and white shirts defining Jacob and Esau. But, great episode. I’m guessing that Sayid, Juliette, and probably Jacob (if he didn’t die before the explosion) will survive in some way. Locke…well, dead is dead and I could live with that.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
I agree with AnnLoise that I am not convinced Jacob was the Good guy in how he interacted with the Losties before their Island time. But Jacob being the good guy does seem to fit the thematic parallels with other stories they have set up.
Any chance Rose and Bernard are the ‘Adam and Eve’ from Season 1?
May 13th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
OK, so what if Anti-Jacob has somehow been banished from the island but has found a way to return only by inhabiting the body of a dead body (i.e Jack’s Dad and now, Locke) and has been doing so for centuries?? Hmmmm…
Loving Rose and Bernard and Vincent, living their lives. So sweet and made me feel better.
Loved the comment above saying Ben has a Salieri complex…I thought the same thing, Rich!
Love, love, love!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Heading into this episode, I had concluded that Jacob was a puppet-master who had used time travel to orchestrate events and control everything. This AJ character (though I’d prefer to call him the antagonist) actually seems to be that person—creating an existential struggle between destiny/fate/control and free will.
It turns out that Jacob seems to be the advocate of free will, and thus in his time travels seemed to play more of a merciful but unobtrusive spectator. This seems consistent with the Others and their free spirited alliance with him (whereas Dharma—and Widmore—seem to be more about control and manipulation).
I can’t quite sort it out, but it seems possible that antagonist AJ—not Jacob—controlled much of what we think of as the island itself (the black smoke, Christian, etc).
But, even if this is all right, where the heck does it go from here? How in the world can they wrap this up—the personal and existential elements—in an intellectual and emotionally satisfying way? I’ll be hugely impressed if they can.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Ben.
Ben is “he who will save us”.
He has always LIED in the shadow of the statue.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
@ Rich in Cleveland
I’m not even sure anymore if that was Jacob’s cabin. Maybe the ash was the keep the anti-jacob in it. That’s why when Locke was taken there, he communicated with the AJ and got set on this path he’s on now?
Cause apparently Jacob has always lived in the statue.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
One more thing, the Lost Logo reversing from black to white was pretty cool, wonder what it might mean, a clue for next year? I think the island will be back in 2007 again, what will the ultimate goal be? Save the island? Leave the island? What was jacob?
May 13th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
What if “they’re coming” refers to Christian and Claire rather than the people in 1977? Unlikely, but possible.
Did anyone catch what was said in Latin between Ilana and Ricardus/Richard? Also, what was the Greek embroidered on the cloth Jacob was weaving?
May 13th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
For Dan, a repost of what i had earlier up the list here.
Thank god for super Lost fans:
When Richard is asked what lies in the shadow of the statue
a nice Lost fan (drockin13 over at 4815162342.com) got the subtitles
“ille qui nos omnes servabit”
and from what he looked up it pretty much means
“He who will save us all”
May 13th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Did anyone else notice how Locke was confused when they took him to the Giant Foot? If he is the ‘Dark One’ from the early days, wouldn’t he have been familiar with Jacob Being Here? Also, after Jacob was stabbed and he started to say ‘They are Coming’ Locke seemed to change from the vengeful personality to sounding more like the old one when he asked ‘What was that?’. I guess once Jacob was a goner he was directionless like the old Locke, even though he was not really Locke.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Ok, Ryan and Jen – you guys totally have your work cut out for you with this one. How do you recap this finale?? Seriously, this was the most intense 2 hours of TV I’ve ever seen, and the best finale Lost has had. The ending was absolutely gut wrenching, and I don’t think I breathed at all for the last half an hour. Absolutely brilliant.
I think I need to let this all sink in…my mind is fried!!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
@Jesse Again
Who knows? Even though Lost is rarely obvious, in this case, I’m going to go with the most obvious: Jacob. He appears to have always had his home there and it appears that Illana and Richard are not with this character who is posing as Locke but actually with Jacob. While Jacob is dead, he might be the true Christ figure that Lost fans seem to keep looking for (Christian Sheppard, John Locke … it seems like there have been others as well). As people have already mentioned here, Ben appears to be taking on the role of Judas …
No matter who it is, I really like the line. I’m not a religious person. I’m more agnostic than anything. But for some reason, I really do enjoy seeing religious symbols and parallels in Lost.
@AnnLouise
You make a lot of really good points. Even though there’s all kinds of talk of black and white in terms of backgammon, the stones with Adam and Eve and even Jacob wearing white with the Anti-Jacob/Devil character wearing black, I don’t think that much of anything on Lost is truly black and white. I usually see a lot of gray in terms of the characters in the show. That said, my gut feeling right now is that Jacob probably is good and does believe in free will but will clear paths for people to make decisions for themselves. It just so happens that our Losties all chose the path that brought them to the island. Sayid is the biggest toss-up for me, though, since Jacob’s interference led to Nadia’s death. I’m not big on the idea of a “vengeful God” but Carlton did say in the last podcast that he views Sayid as a bad person … he kinda took it back, but kinda not. I personally love Sayid so I don’t like the idea of him being bad and I like the idea of Sayid being the recipient of Jacob’s vengeance even less but at this point, who knows. (I feel like I keep repeating “who knows.) I have a feeling that whether or not Sayid survives, we’ll find out more about that encounter that led to Nadia’s death. Or maybe it is just as simple as saving Sayid’s life?
May 13th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
@ HeyKir in NYC
Great Amadeus reference. Couldn’t say it better myself.
There is so much on my mind, and I really want to write so much, but I need to digest this episode.
I love reading all of your comments. It really helps me center myself and reevaluate my own conclusions.
I noticed nobody has really stated that
WEVE SEEN THE F***ING STATUE!!!
They’ve given us so many things.
But I digress
As I said, I’ll compose myself and write my theories and reactions later this evening perhaps.
Bottomline is.
LOST is the greatest SHOW this century. It has us all by the horns! And no matter what happens…I know that the Creators/Producers/Writers will take care of us, because look:
Theyve given us 5 INCREDIBLE seasons and OVER 100 HOURS of amazing story telling, mythology, and wonderful characters what well never forget and feel close to.
____________
All i have to say right now, is I have to life the next 8 months wondering if Sayid will make it… That is a burning feeling that I havent really swallowed up yet. But I’m overwhelmed with the bigger picture and the things that truly and upmostly matter ‘in the end’
I love LOST
May 13th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
@AnnLouise
I missed your Esau post before I posted my last. Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting and also goes nicely with @HAM in MO’s theory.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
I wonder now, who will lead the other? Could it be Ben? Perhaps “what about you” meant more than we thought. Maybe Jacob was asking Ben what his destiny was. Because really, if we go by the war idea, we have the army of the others, and in the other corner…. “esau” as or with the smoke monster? what kind of battle will that create?
May 13th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
My brain is tired, so my posts aren’t really fully formed thoughts right now. But I have one question for everyone:
Did anyone see this coming?
We are all huge Lost fans but I don’t think any of us could have predicted this finale. This is the genius that is Lost, this is why we keep watching.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Holy Crap!!!! This is by far, the best episode of Lost EVER. My mind is still trying to take it all in…
I do have one question, though… why couldn’t ‘the other guy’ kill jacob? and how did they get there? (ok, maybe more than one question…lol)
It seemed like an awfully easy death… a couple stabs to the heart and bam. So was it a ‘rule’ that kept other guy from taking him out ages ago?
I, too, believe Richard was the original Jack Sparrow (lol Drew!). So, is he mortal? was Jacob mortal? are they/were they just in some time loop where they never age?
The only negative thing I have to say about this episode was Juliet’s flashback was very strange! The house looked like something in this time period…. her parents clothing, everything. Would’ve she have to have been born in the late 60’s, early 70’s?? That seemed a little weird.
There are way too many good things to say and my brain hurts too much to try to type anymore but I CANNOT wait for the podcast!!!
AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME!!!
What in the world are we gonna do for the next 8 months?!
May 13th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
WHAT?!?!?!?!
That episode was CRAZY!
My 2 cents – it’ll send them back to the present but it won’t change the future. If they changed the future then it creates a paradox – if they never went to the island then they never went back in time and set off the bomb – and if they never set off the bomb then they crashed on the island.
Is Sayid dead? Or at least dying still? As invested as we are in him, I’d almost rather keep Juliet. Or is all of this a moot point because the “game changing moment” is so game-changing that we’re not even asking the right questions.
I don’t know, if we keep thinking about all of this, it’ll either start to make sense OR we’ll just get a headache.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
oh, and one more thing… as a female about the same age as kate, one of my favorite parts of this whole episode was that she stole a New Kids on the Block lunch box!!!! LOL!! that was great!!
May 13th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Another site has the latin quote as
“ille qui omnes servabit” = that which will protect us.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
@ Carol…
No. Im sure that NOBODY did. Thats why its so incredible
And FYI, LOSTEPEDIA calls the AJ ANTI JACOB “Jacobs enemy”
whatever floats ur freighter
May 13th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
After watching, I think it is incredibly likely that the other guy on the beach is the Smoke Monster. Jacob is the one that believes in people and tries to guide them. The Smoke Monster is the judge. One light, the other dark. He may very well have been “borrowing” the body that we saw. Just think, all of the info that has steered Locke has come from Christian Shepard, who said he spoke for Jacob, and what we now know is “Possessed Locke.” When Locke took Ben to the Smoke Monster, he know exactly where to go. He was nowhere to be found until after Ben came back out. What did Alex tell Ben? She told him to do EXACTLY what John Locke says. We know with certainty that the Smoke Monster can take the forms of either dead on the island, or people from someone who he is judging’s past. All he did was use those abilities to find his loophole and get rid of his nemesis.
May 13th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Two ethereal adversaries, one light, one dark, needing a vessel in order to do harm. Richard needed to collect the dead bodies and burn them because the dark god could use their bodies as vessels in an attempt to find/kill Jacob. Charlie and Libby were seen after they died, could they have been vessels used by the darkness in an attempt to persuade certain actions by the losties? Not all those that died were needed (Paulo and Nikki, Shannon but Locke did see Boone again).
In an effort to set all of this in motion, the impending war was always going to happen; the losties were merely pawns, a necessity in order to make the killing of Jacob possible. The visits, the time travel, the specific characters, all needed by Jacob and his adversary. Locke, the man of faith, was easily manipulated. The smoke monster (Jacob’s adversary), peered into the soul of John Locke and saw the kind of man he was and knew this was his vessel. He granted Locke the ability to walk, giving him confidence that the island healed him. He visited Locke, posing as Christian Sheppard, telling him he had to die, even going as far as using Locke’s body to tell Richard what he needed to say to the “real” Locke. Locke had to die, not to save his friends but for Jacob to die and for the war to begin. Every action, every piece of knowledge, every possibility, five years we have watched a chess match between Jacob and his “friend”, using the losties. The crew of the black rock (the others) verses the Dharma was a precursor to the war that is coming between Jacob’s followers and his “friend”. There are so many insignificant items that the writers knew we would focus on, all the while setting us up for an epic battle of good versus evil, perhaps between two gods, and using humans for our moral ambiguity. The book Jacob was reading on the bench Everything that Rises Must Converge contains many short stories, two of which are titled Revelation and Judgment Day, which could be poignant, the first five seasons show the revelation of how we came upon judgment day, the final battle. But that is just my crack pot theory so far. I intend on going back and watching every episode again. This was by far THE best episode of LOST.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I think Ben is the “loophole” that Jacob was talking about. After Ben was shot by Sayid, Richard took him to the Temple saying he would be changed and different and the temple made him special in a certain way and granted him powers that noone else had, namely to kill Jacob. Like Richard told Widmore, Jacob told him (Richard) to bring Ben there and save him. Jacob then realized his mistake, that he had created the loophole, the way that he could be killed. Because of this, Jacob never directly interacts with Ben, fearing Ben’s power to kill him. In the end, Jacob’s ignoring Ben causes Ben to kill Jacob, which would certainly be very ironic (in trying to save himself, Jacob actually caused his own death).
I also think that the black-shirt-guy/Anti-Jacob/Esau embodied Christian Shephard before he took John Locke’s form. It was Anti-Jacob that caused all the things to move and fly around and that said “Help Me” to Locke when Locke and Ben visited the cabin, to make Ben even more jealous and frustrated at not being able to communicate with Jacob (setting up his later killing of Jacob) and also to set John on the path of believing he is somehow special. When Locke went to see Jacob in season 4 and was told that he “had to move the island” it was actually Christian Shephard/Anti-Jacob whom he met and Anti-Jacob told him that he had to move the island knowing that Ben would instead do this and ultimately predicting the events that happened off Island (Ben Kills Locke, Ben returns on the Plane) so that he (Anti-Jacob) could miraculously “return” as Locke. Anti-Jacob in the form of Locke impresses Ben and ultimately uses his guise as “returned Locke with a purpose” to con Ben into killing Jacob. Anti-Jacob/Esau also knew that Locke had been set up as the leader, so Richard would not suspect Locke wanting to see Jacob and would wilfully lead Locke/Anti-Jacob right to Jacob, which Anti-Jacob/Esau could probably not do himself.
I hope that jumbled theory made some sort of sense, it’s probably riddled with holes, but it’s just a thought. We won’t know until in 8 months anyway >_<
Also, did anyone notice that the Statue looked a lot like Tawaret (Hippo Face, Two Ankhs, 4 Toes, etc…). I know this was a popular theory when we first saw the back of the statue and I think there’s probably some truth to it seeing that Tawaret is also the Egyptian goddess/guardian of Fertility, etc…
Love the Blog and the Podcast and everyone’s insights and thoughts! Can’t wait to hear Ryan and Jen!
May 13th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Ok…. I rewatched the last 10 minutes of this episode…
and I have just come to the incredibly depressing and slightly angering realization…
WE KNOW NOTHING OF NEXT SEASON…
does the past change, does the future change, who’s alive, who’s dead, who’s here, who’s there, what’s up, what’s down, left is right, right is left cats are sleeping with dogs…
it’s MADNESS!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I found the reincarnation reference:
Ben’s Van: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Reincarnation#Ben.E2.80.99s_van
“Canton Rainier”, an anagram for Reincarnation
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/6/67/Bensvan.jpg
AJ reincarnated (an)other body(ies).
May 13th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
@Jesse Again
I’m going to predict that we see Patrick Duffy step out of the shower.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Quick Picture comparison for the Statue/Taweret:
Statue:
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/3a9b326e7702a50c7effad666c6204dd
Taweret:
http://www.zarifas.com/images/products/h/hippo_goddess.jpg
I think it’s pretty clear?
May 13th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
At first I really enjoyed this episode but on further rumination I am disappointed. Not because of the cliffhanger, but like Danie said, all this Jacob sudden reveal is too much Deux ex Machina. So now we see he (Jacob) is impacting on everyone’s lives…i just don’t buy it. I hate the introduction of so radically new concepts and characters this late in the endgame. I fear that when LOST is all said and done, there will be so much left unanswered.
Again when Jacob interacts with our Losties, i don’t always see the defining moment. His interaction with Sawyer was big, but the cameo with Sun’s wedding was negligible.
I thought it was comical that with only minutes to spare, Miles was the only one to come up with the idea that perhaps the H-Bomb is “the incident”…!?
Someday I want to hear an interview from the producers and writers and find out how much of this was from the start/planned and how much was “on the fly.” Was Jacob really supposed to be revealed this late in the game…? Was this show always supposed to be about Jacob (White Shirt) and Anti-Jacob (Black Shirt)…
It would be a trip if the final season had the Losties landing in LA, but everything is screwed up so that their new mission is to get back and make it truly right and that the plane was supposed to crash…
May 13th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
carol….I noticed the logo switch color reverse too. Have the teams been switched, the games been changed.
We saw jacob finally.. But he dies already? Why do we see jacks eye opening again at the very end of the show… The ending was definitely a big clue…where was Christian or claire
It was nice to see rose and Bernard and vincent! Where has vincent been? I loved it! Will rewatch a bit tomorrow.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Well…hmmmm….well…..hmmmm…ok……hmmmm….um….
ok…..so much to say.
First of all I loved that we found the Drive Shaft Ring- I have thought about that sitting there in Aaron’s cradle a lot.
Did you all notice the rainbow behind Sawyer on the beach when they first see Vincent? I loved that. Another biblical reference- God’s promise after the flood….and of course “Somewhere over the rainbow…”
I am wondering what Eloise might have to do with Pod-Locke (as I like to call him)- because she was the one who insisted that Jack bring him and put his father’s “ruby slippers” on him for the plane ride…did she want to kill Jacob too- in some retribution for her own son’s death?
I think the Jacob/Esau connection seems pretty obvious- but I don’t think its clear who is bad and who is good here. I mean pod-Locke certainly doesn’t seem good- he seems very tricky and he killed Jacob (his brother?). But there is surely more to the story. I like this website for the bible story of Jacob and Esau- its for kids and they tell a nice story (I have 5 kids!)
http://www.essex1.com/people/paul/bible24.html
I do think the fact that Jacob kept talking about Free-will and Choice- is meaningful in the story- that all along the way people make choices and he is somehow trying to prove that no matter what happens- we make progress- but it always ends the same way. So are they looping through the same old story over and over- making progress- whilst always ending the same way? Mass destruction? UNtil he finds the “loophole” that allows him to kill “his brother.”
I loved when Jacob said to Ben “What about you?” There was something even loving about that- it didn’t sounds like someone sarcastically saying “Yeah what about you you nimwit” it was clearly a question back to Benjamin.
Juliette seemed a little “Sylvia” in this episode- she seemed like she couldn’t make up her mind and one look from Sawyer to Kate would end up send her reeling towards a hydrogen bomb? I agree with whoever above said that some of that didn’t play as well as it could have – needed more motive- she seemed a little “pod-like” herself in this episode.
Cant wait for the podcast…and Knives- will you be selling “Save Sayid” Dharma Shirts during the long hiatus???
May 13th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Well, definitely a “fork in the light-socket!”
May 13th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
@target242
There was a moment during the show where I had a similar thought. When Jacob went to visit Illana in the hospital, I thought to myself, “ya know, it’s unfortunate that we hadn’t at least seen Jacob at some point in the show even if we had no idea that’s who he was.” I wonder if the Lost writers were too worried about giving away his identity if they put him in anywhere? You’ve also got to figure that in a TV show like this, it would be hard to hire an actor who, by appearances, is just an extra only to hire him again later as such an important character, ya know what I mean? Anyway, I know it seems like I’m just making excuses for those in charge of the show but at this point, I do want to cut them slack. I mean, it’s not like we hadn’t known about Jacob for a while. We just hadn’t seen him. It’s not the same as an actor coming on the show and playing a character we’d never heard of.
Maybe when they release the 10 year anniversary deluxe blu-ray (or whatever format we have in 10 years) edition of the series, they’ll have placed the dude playing Jacob into the background of various characters’ flashbacks digitally
May 13th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
…Oh and I loved seeing baby Kate and baby James…and did anyone think of Charlotte when Jin said that Jacob spoke really good korean? (at his wedding)
May 13th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Question:
Did anybody get the Greek from Jacob’s weaving?
My thoughts:
I’m hoping that next season isn’t a reset. It seems the writers went out of their way to stay in line with events that we know will happen. Chang does lose his arm. Radzinsky stays alive so he can end up a Swan-stain, and the Swan site goes nuclear, thus insuring concrete bunker in the future.
This episode also strongly hints that Christian could be a bad guy. In season 3, I assumed the ash circle around the cabin was there to keep Jacob in. Now it seems that it was there to keep someone out. Did Christian infiltrate the cabin? Did anti-Jacob put him up to it? We’ll see.
Also, nice touch in having Jacob in white and anti-Jacob in black at the beginning.
One final thing. I am hoping that since this episode seems like the season one backgammon conversation between Walt and Locke writ large, we will see Walt again. Maybe Young Mister Dawson is the only one who has the power to revive/replace Jacob and set everything back in balance.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
I just had a thought … was did Walt tell Locke he dreamt? That a bunch of people were standing around him on the beach, wanting to kill him? Or had already killed him? Either way, that looks like the scene we saw tonight. Either with Locke’s real dead body or perhaps with Anti-Jacob comes out still in Locke’s form.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
“Walt informed Locke that he had been having dreams of him back on the Island wearing a suit, surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him.”
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Walt_Lloyd
Walt in interesting because he can see the future and warns people throughout the show of things about to happen- even the time he says “Their coming” to Shannon (I think he says it backwards and creepy and it gave me nightmares) It is similar to the same warning Jacob gave Pod-Locke tonight.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
If the Jacobs Enemy/Locke II isn’t locke… then how was he wearing Christians shoes?
May 13th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Yeah, I was thinking about who the “they’re coming” tonight could be referring to, which made me think of Walt’s “they’re coming” and how ambiguous that was … which made me think of the dream.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
@Knives Monroe
How does he look like Locke at all? Locke’s body was in the box the entire time. I’d guess that Anti-Jacob just needed Locke’s body on the plane to make people like Ben think Locke really had come back to life. If he can take on Locke’s form, it’d probably be easy to fake the shoes too.
The Christian Sheppard we see on the island has to be connected to Anti-Jacob since he told Sun and Frank to wait for John Locke, right? Which has me worried for Claire.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
I think that Jacob is “What lies in the shadow of the statue”. Even though he is dead now, whenever they came up with that ‘friend confirmation’ phrase, he would have be considered one who protects/saves them. I think it is clear that he always lived near the statue, and even though there is only a food left, he lives in its shadows inside.
I am baffled by the connection between Richard Alpert, Jacob and the new group of people. It seems that it might be logical that Richard Alpert came onto the island on the Black Rock. At first I thought that Richard’s answer to the friend confirmation phrase was in Spanish and that would explain why the new group knew him as Ricardo as well. But then I realized the answer was actually Latin, and according to Lostpedia the Black Rock was a British ship. So how does Latin play in? It still seems likely that English is not Richard Alpert’s first language, and the new group of people are either long lost crew from the Black Rock who have not aged, or more likely, exploiting knowledge somehow obtained from the earlier days of the island. Maybe they are working for Charles Widmore after all and they learned enough to get them where they are from the Hanso family journal.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Jesse Again got me thinking about how little we know about next season. Here are some things that I’m wondering if we’ll see in terms of Jacob and Anti-Jacob:
What if Anti-Jacob tries to take Jacob’s form when we next see him? Will we recognize the truth? Will Richard et. al. know the truth or will he be able to kill Ben and come up with a story for the Locke-facade he had been using? Or will Ben redeem himself by telling everyone that this new guy isn’t really Jacob? Will there be some kind of revisit to the doubting Tom story that Ben tells Jack, except this time with Ben as the doubter if and when the real Jacob returns?
Ok, my mind has got to stop racing. Putting on some soothing music and trying to walk away for the blog
May 13th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Our TV cut out for about 30 seconds when Jacob said “So you found a loophole” and came back when Ben started going off on Jacob. AAAA!!
What did we miss???? Pleeeeeease!!!
May 13th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
pretty amazing, lots of info to process. I think we went this whole season without seeing Claire…???? i guess the anti-jacob is just as knowledgable as Jacob to know all these things about Locke’s history. When i found out locke died i was sad but then happy when i found out he came back to life but now he is dead again. Is the real John Locke gone for good??? thats it and season 6 is too far away.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
That was an amazing how. Does anyone think that the statue looks like “sobek” from egyptian mythology? Google it. . . .
Thoughts and Jacob being in white and his “friend” being in black. A simple illusion of good and evil? The “friend” couldnt kill Jacob so he has Ben do it while taking the shape of Locke.
“They are coming” ..was that Jacob telling the “friend” that Jack and gang are coming back ..or forward to the island’s present time?
May 13th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
FUNKY-ben asking jacob why he never showed himeself to ben,and why he never ask to see ben or let him come see jacob.
only question i have is how did rose and bernard not get found in 3 years,
they seem to have a nice cabin,and food so why did no one come across them.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Wow!!!!
I need to sleep. And re-watch this epi again before posting all the thoughts running through my head but -
WOOHOOOO – bye bye Phil
(yes!)
WoooHooooHoooooo – Rose, Bernard AND Vincent.
The only one that was missed was a final verdict or status on Claire.
One question – if Jack’s bomb re-sets the island wouldn’t it re-set it WAY back, to the beginning of the island’s existence and not just our 815ers flight?
I had a horrible/crazy thought at the very beginning of the opening sequence. *Holy F-Bomb, it’s all been an RPG* I hope not, but I did have that thought.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Wow. Best show ever. Best episode ever. Next season will completely rock.
Does the bomb take out the statue? Does everyone go back in time? If so, everything still has to come together.
The episodes with Des and Charlie showing that what has to happen will happen just show that everyone will end up on the island and go through everything that happens in season 1-5 whether it happens the way it happened in this timeline or another – just like Charlie had to die, but it didn’t always happen exactly the same way.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
No words. Need to see again and digest it all. Can’t believe we have 8 months to wait to find out what happens.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
I havent read all the other comments yet but I guess I got a real different take on Jacob. To me he seamd like the “dark” one! something about him.
Where is Locks coffin? Why did Illana and gang have a big metal box? Is this another “what ever you want is in the box” box?
How do we know Illanas Lock is the real one?
Lock didnt seam special to Richard after seeing him 3X….why did he need to see him way back then?
Juilet going down the hole reminded me of the French dude and smokey. Glad she kept her arm. I was actualy screaming at the TV “NO! When Juliet let go. I actualy cried. LOL I REALLY love the Sawyer Juliet paring!
The statue looked like it had a Croc. head.
Biggest question for me….what was up with that look between Bernard and Juilet? Like they both knew something the others didnt. If we go back in time Rose will still have Cancer. : ( . .
I see Lock (or who ever he is) is really controling Ben now…it was like they reversed places.
I had throught Richard was from the Egyption era. OOPS! But why the name change?
Ive been thinking a lot about the Adam and Eve thing. Wondering if the island is a sort of eden where healing takes place. The bible story has a tree of life (this would keep people alive a long time) and a tree os Knowaldge of Good and evil (Bens lost innocence.)
I have to say I ddint like the end. Not too excited about the whole show tonight. Left me not wanting more if they just go on with their lives.
Question from the past….what happened to Jin and who ever that was who had a baby who he took a giant stuffed animal to.
May 13th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Well at first I thought it was the story of Job based on the challenge issued by who the posters are calling Anti-Jacob, but it seems a variation on it. Yin and Yang are more suitable. They even wore shirt colors to help us out.
So, now the question to be answered is “Was everything Jacob offered a choice and passive?” at least relative to the individual he contacted or interacted with. This implies that Smoky might be an Anti-Jacob manifestation and the temple is where he lives. My crackpot theory for the summer. Did Hurley bring Jacobs Ace in the Hole in that guitar case? Hmmmmm…
May 13th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
I think there will be much to rehash but there is one important thing I HAVE to point out…why does everyone assume Juliet is dead? Her fate will be the same as all the other Losties…if they flash, so will she…they are all close enough to the bomb to die from it being detonated. If you think she is going to die from her injuries then I remind you the island heals.
That said, I also think it was important that Jacob touched everyone in some way/some how. The only one in the past he didn’t touch? Juliet. 
Jacob was definitely referring to the Losties as the ones who were coming. This leads me to believe he knew all along what was happening. He had to have known b/c of all the work he did going to visit, etc. Why then did he save/revive Locke? Interesting…Also, for being so smart he was REALLY stupid to say to Ben, “What about you?”
Once they showed Frank look in the box I knew it was Locke. Locke just became more and more evil as the episode went on.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Here is my theory, the man sitting with Jacob at the beginning of the episode is now in the form of Lock. Who is this man? I believe it’s the smoke monster in a human form.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
It got me to thinking, when they pressed the button every 108 minutes in the Swan station what phyiscally happens? Does a rod or stick go into a hole or some cover gets moved or something else yet to be seen?
I wonder why the other guy in the beginning of the episode wanted to kill Jacob?
May 13th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
First off, amazing episode. Probably one of my favorites, definitely top 3, up there with “The Constant”
Here are some thoughts I had before I scour the rest of the comments…
1. Where was Desmond and Penny? (besides Penny being in that stupid teaser for “what did you see?”
2. Did anyone else get the feeling that Juliet KNEW she had to do this. Maybe someone from Dharmaville told her that SHE caused the “Incident.”
3. Continuation… if the episode is called “The Incident” then, THIS happened all along, right? So they won’t land in L.A. Just my predictions… but then, when does Dharma get reinstated after the incident.
4. Another flash… remember season 3 ending? Last time that happened, a plane got sucked in, so it is 1977, what could THIS flash be drawing to the island? Any ideas?
5. The bomb reminded me of something else… So, certain REALLY large fires, I have heard that if you detonate a bomb near the flame, the burst will extinguish it. I got the sense that blowing up the bomb actually SAVED the losties so stuff wouldn’t just KEEP getting sucked into the hole.
6. Ideas about Anti-Locke… I agree with some of the other posters, I think he IS the manifestations from the Smoke monster, and perhaps IS the smoke monster. I believe he just manifests himself as Locke, Alex, and perhaps others.
7. I get the sense that there is a balance at play, with Jacob and Anti-Jacob, that they both need each other but don’t LIKE each other. I REALLY like the white/black good/bad metaphors that were scattered throughout the past 5 seasons, and especially in this episode.
Well, I think I will stop there. I hope next season brings back a few things…(another list)
1. Desmond and Penny
2. Ben and Widmore
3. Claire, Christian, etc.
4. Jacob and Anti-Jacob
5. Juliet and Daniel
6. Pierre Chang
7. The Numbers!
Cheers!
Evan
stay LOST
May 13th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
@LostNTonic
RPG? Lol,
“I can’t kill you”
“damn right, just picked up my invulnerability shield”
“hmmm, looks like I need to find a loophole in that whole invulnerability thing”
May 13th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Holy freakin’ crap! That is all for now.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
The Greek is verse 6.180 of the Odyssey
English: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0136
may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires
Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0135
[σοὶ δὲ] θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς,
Also, when Ben and fake Locke go to see Jacob, a fragment of Odyssey 24.402 is shown
English: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0136
hail to thee, and all welcome, and may the gods grant thee happiness
Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0135
[οὖλέ τε καὶ μάλα χαῖρε, θεοὶ δέ τοι] ὄλβια δοῖεν.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:05 am
@Jason from Virginia
ille quos nos omnes servabit
He who will protect us all
May 14th, 2009 at 12:12 am
They said they’d kill off ONE more main character, but it looks like both Sayid and Juliet are dead… well, as dead as you can be if you just flashed to the new timeline/past/future.
I can’t really comment on this episode. I just… can’t comprehend it.
One thing my sister suggested though is that if you want to look at it from a Biblical perspective, maybe anti-Jacob is Moses or something? This is mostly gotten from where Ben says Locke was marched up to the cabin like he was Moses. I don’t know the Bible at all though, so it’s just a guess.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:34 am
I liked the episode alot and i will not go to bed angry. here’s why:
there are two stories going – one is the earthly conflict between the losties and the others and the dharma initiative, etc. the other is the spiritual battle between jacob and anti-jacob (esau?). the addition of this second part of the story may be a little “deus ex machina” for some people, but i am relieved to know that the story is much deeper than just a struggle by billionaires and radicals for a magical island.
“they’re coming” – i think this is in reference to Alana, who i think is the leader of a group of neo-holy warriors who come to fight in the name of Jacob.
Locke – finding out that Locke was ultimately the victim of the longest of long cons (by anti-jacob) was extremely satisfying for me. i was never a fan of “the man of faith > the man of science” that’s been going on for most of the show. Locke’s faith led him astray, and he got conned worse than anything his father ever did to him. I loved this.
Ben – why was ben involved in the killing of jacob? because anti-jacob could not do it himself. why does ben get to control the smoke monster? because ben is the key to anti-jacob’s plan. the smoke monster judges the people who were touched by jacob, but not in the way we think. the smoke monster judges them in terms of whether or not they will make a good “mark” for the con. Locke is the “mark” and Ben is the “patsy”. a patsy like lee harvey oswald in a way.
Jack, Sawyer, Juliet, Kate, etc – don’t get mad at these guys for acting the way they acted. Jacob brought them here fully knowing the weaknesses of man. Sawyer hit it directly on the head when he said that a man doesn’t do something unless he wants something. the forbidden fruit was dangling, and they all could not resist but take a bite. they are human, and therefore imperfect.
just my two cents…
May 14th, 2009 at 12:50 am
All I have to say is sanctus concubitus fimus! (Latin for Holy Freakin’ Crap!)
Some weak points, but overall a superb finale to a superb season. Josh Holloway deserves an Emmy (at least!) for that gut wrenching moment watching watching Juliet slip away into the dark well. I have never cried during a single moment of Lost. I did then.
So there really IS a Jacob, he has a rival, and he lives in the shadow of the statue. They are Good and Evil personified. This must all be explained in season six. First qualification of a perspective LOST writer: masochism.
Finally, isn’t it obvious that Sayid’s “modification” to the bomb was to disarm it? I mean, we didn’t really hear an explosion – just a flash to white. The last minute introduction by Miles of the concept that exploding the bomb may actually cause the incident rather than repel it seems to support the conclusion.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:09 am
Wow after reading Ryan and Jens blog, I feel real bad that they didn’t enjoy it.
I still have alot on my mind… I’m thinking of how to spin this weave…
May 14th, 2009 at 1:25 am
I didn’t think this was the strongest episode and was somewhat disappointed in all the things that Ryan and Jen mentioned. We seem to have set the stage next years battle between the dark and light. The island is the chess board, the humans are the chess pieces and who besides Vincent will be left standing at the end?
I was impressed in the first hour as to how many questions were answered but I just didn’t think the writers explained why the characters were making the decisions they made over the next hour.
Well, we have 8 months to ponder the “incident”.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:30 am
Could Jacob and Anti-Jacob be like the brothers on Star trek played by Frank Gorshin? the Half White/ Black brothers.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:33 am
Wow. First, I just want to get off my chest how wrong I was about pretty much everything–I fell into the “kill Jacob” meant he was going to debunk the MYTH of Jacob, so clearly I have no clue what the hell is going on with this show!
I was a little dismayed by the whole episode and really felt like I needed to immediately watch it again, except that it was WAY past my bedtime so that’ll have to wait for tonight. I had a lot of the same thoughts wrt so many of the events being controlled by the love quadrangle. I found that kind of irritating. I mean, I was happier thinking Jack was doing all this in an attempt to save lives. That made sense to me. He’s a doctor! Whee! But he’s doing it because he lost Kate? WTF? Hello, if the plane lands, she’s going to prison for-freakin-ever. And then Juliet does the 180 because Sawyer looks at Kate at a dramatic moment. Puh-lease. To me, both those actions were very far outside what we know of those characters to this point.
But, the good part is I’m totally confused, yet starting to see where this is going. I actually see the connection to The Stand a lot more clearly now. There’s a definite good vs. evil battle going on that was bigger than we had known. Who these 2 entities are and what the heck they’re doing on the island I guess is for season 6. In The Stand, it’s really black & white: Mother Abigail is working for God and Randall Flagg is the devil. 99.4% of the population has died and they’re fighting for control of the remainder.
The interesting question that I was left with, even as tired as I was last night, was whether Jughead’s explosion changed anything. Sorry if I’m repeating prior posts, but there are already too many to read, so I’ll risk being repetitive. Didn’t “The Incident” already happen? The electromagnetic energy was released. Does the bomb change that? And if you could have just exploded after the release of energy, why the rush to get there before it happens? I guess for me to understand that I’d have to understand the point of detonating an h bomb in a pocket of electromagnetic energy, and I totally don’t. But I’m thinking things still are how they are, absent Juliet’s radiated self.
Oh boy, 8 months!!
May 14th, 2009 at 1:40 am
So when Richard tell Sun that he saw them all die, that didn’t happen in this episode. So obviously they are still alive, in the past. Unless he lied to Sun.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:46 am
@ aaronavilla
i think you nailed it my man.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:47 am
@stubble
The second section of the greek you have is from the scene where Odyseus kills all the men who have been living in his house, sleeping with his servants, drinking his wine, eatting his food and trying to get with his wife.
Not sure about the first one…
ANYWAY….
i was laying in bed last night thinking…
there’s only so many things that could happen right?!
1. It all resets..everything…
but then this would mean the revelation about Jacob and AJ and Locke is pointless, just as pointless as the other losties experiences.
2. It resets for everyone but Jacob and AJ…
but then this means we have an evil Locke and good Locke running around the island?
3. It resets but they all keep their memories?
4. Nothing resets and the losties in the 70s shoot back into the future..
but then this means Sayid is a goner for sure. (on that note, who thought miles..the same guy being tourtured by Locke with a grenade in the mouth would outlive Sayid!)
5. It resets…but the losties are still in the 70s?!
6. It resets….but the losties are reset back in the black rock times?
7. Radioactive mutants vs body snatching zombies
I’m sure thier are more, but I personally don’t care…
ALL I WANT…
is the classic villian moment…
where evil Locke, or AJ, or SOMEONE (hello richard? speak up any time now buddy) stops whatever they are doing and just explains why the bad guy does/did what he did.
That’s all…
I hate just having a good and evil fight…
what’s the motivation for evil to be evil?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:59 am
@ jesse again
The motive for evil and the motive for good are one in the same. You essentially can’t have one without the other.
What makes evil, evil? Well the opposing energy or force of what makes good, good. Vice versa.
Naturally ‘evil’ and ‘good’ are just points of view, respectfully, and essentially borderlines on relativity.
Great question though. This show has a lot of philosophical ideologies behind it. No wonder its a college course.
Its a noodle scratcher.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:10 am
That scene at the start between Jacob and ‘Anti-Jacob’ – so crucial. It must surely set the tone for the final season but I’m not sure how we should read into it. People have argued that Jacob is for free will, but I think he sounds more like advocating ‘whatever happens happens’. And it is AJ who sounds more concerned with preserving the island….
Here’s the transcript:
J : Are you here because of the ship?
AJ: I am. How did they find the island?
J : You’ll have to ask them when they get here.
AJ: I don’t have to ask. You brought them here. You’re trying to prove me wrong, aren’t you?
J : You are wrong.
AJ: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corupt. And it always ends the same.
J : If it only ends once, anything that happens before that is just progress.
AJ: Have you any idea how badly I want to kill you?
J : Yes.
AJ: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m going to find a loophole my friend.
J : Well when you do I’ll be right here.
AJ: Always nice talking to you Jacob.
J : Nice talking to you too.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:17 am
I promise to go back and read all the amazing posts..
For now I’d like to comment on the Charlie’s Angelesque shoot out. I laughed out loud seeing Juliet and Kate guns blazing.
Are those Dharma Vans bullet proof? Or the DI guys are such bad shots they can’t hit a big blue vehicle?
May 14th, 2009 at 2:28 am
We’ve entered Matrix 2 territory.
Matrix 1 was great, but the second was so bad it nearly killed everything that came before it, unless you willfully forget anything ever happened after Neo beat Agent Smith in Matrix 1. I can do that, and still enjoy Matrix 1.
So what happened in Lost 5.16?
On the plus side, it was nice seeing Rose and Bernard. It was nice visiting Black Rock era.
But moving on to the other side, we meet Jacob at last. He’s not a mysterious ghost or undead person, he’s not Jack, or Locke, or Ben or Walt or Aaron, or even Vincent–he’s the guy that was second choice when they cast Paulo. Another pretty male model with no depth. And it’s o-so clever that he’s met the losties in the past isn’t it? Not really, that was clever the first time, but it really got tedious watching these visits from the
omniscient Jacob. All right, we get it–he’s been behind the scenes all along and has a plan for child Kate & almost dead Locke. Ok. Next.
Jacob was a dissapointment. They picked the worst answer to “who’s Jacob”.
And speaking of almost dead Locke. Now we know he’s truly dead, and we have an imposter posing as Locke. Worst Answer possible.
Locke’s mission to kill Jacob? Was it to release him? to actually help him? To expose Ben’s fraud? Was it something interesting like that? No, it was to murder jacob for reasons unknown to us. Worst Answer Possible.
What about this bomb plot? Will it be averted? Will they really set off a NUKE on the island? But wont that permanently kill all the Dharma non-time-travelers? And Jack, is it really fair to wipe out other people’s time lines so that you can land in LA in 2004? What on earth is possibly appealing to this idea that the writers really want to go there? Well, they manage to blow the bomb and get the cliche’d white screen of death. Worst Possible Result.
So, here we are, left with these Urgent Questions: Will the losties die in the blast or be transported to 2004? to 2007? Will SunJin ever be reunited? Is the future changed or is WHH true? I’ll tell you what’s true: WCC — Whoever Cares, Cares.
Another Plus side: The wait to 2010 wont be filled with unbearable antici…pation!
May 14th, 2009 at 2:42 am
I understand Ryan’s analysis and frustrations…..but I do not share them in the least. As a follow up, I had thought more about the finally and they did it to us once again. I am not talking about the non-ending ending, I am talking about giving us so much information, so many great reveals that I cannot help but think that some of the most vital information to the series going forward was slipped in virtually unnoticed.
I am on board thinking that Juliet sacrificed herself and will be dead
The Incident moves the losties back to 2007.
The peices are set for the War, and perhaps Widmore was the good guy all along and Ben was unknowingly taking orders from “Esau”
My theory is that during a struggle during the time of the Black Rock “Esau” was imprisoned at the Swan site, the Incident released him in the form of the Smoke Monster. Thus Jacob must force another confrontation and set in motion the arrival of the losties
BIG line that no one is talking about is the idea of the Candidate. Candidate for what??
Ironic that two years running the answer to “What’s in the Box” was Locke
Thats all I can think of.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:52 am
Okay, I think I am getting it. Here is my theory:
When we see Dark Locke tell Richard to tell Regular Locke to patch up his leg and tell him to bring everyone back, and he has to die, this IS his plan for the loophole. He wanted all the Losties on the Island, and needed him to die. So this planted in Locke’s head that he had to complete the mission, but also had to die. Once dead, Dark Locke could use him to get to Ben (the REAL current LEADER) and kill Jacob. Chances are, Locke was never worthy, as Richard thought, it was just the Darkness making him think he was.
Now, I guarantee Jacob isn’t dead, it is all a Biblical reference to Jesus, here is how:
Many will blame Locke for killing Jacob (Jesus), but it wasn’t so much him. Here is Luke 22:1-6
1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
Just like Satan entered Judas when he caused Jesus’ death, so was it that the Darkness entered Locke and caused Jacob’s.
And just as Satan thought that the loophole to stopping God was killing Jesus, the Darkness thinks this killed Jacob, but i guarantee he will rise, just as Jesus did.
Season 6 will be ALL the Losties in 2007 trying to help Richard/Jacob stop the Darkness, who will still be played by Terry O-Quinn. What a season it will be!
May 14th, 2009 at 3:01 am
Well said, Matt! The scenario you laid out seems most logical, or perhaps it’s just the way I’d like to see it pan out. Either way, though, I’m not willing yet to guarantee anything with Lost, including that Jacob will rise again. I do think it’s likely and that the next thing to consider is *when* will he rise. Will it be 3 days? 3 Years? 3 Decades? We’ve already gotten a lot of mention of “three” and the tie to Jesus’ resurrection now seems apparent.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:02 am
I’m on the fence about this episode. I was mainly spoiler free, other than what i heard on “the forward cabin” so the flashbacks with Jacob were not a surprise to me, but i’m glad to see they really weren’t anything to spoil. I did think the writing was very well done in this episode. I’m aggravated that they “Thudded” in a place that leaves us hanging but that’s Lost season 1 at it’s best!
I’m sure i’ll post again but i was reading the Lostpedia description of Jacob’s history and i noticed something very interesting. It says that Jacob had gone outside the statue and caught and ate a “red Herring”. Does anything have any thoughts on why a red herring, given it’s literary inflection?
Also, i do like the biblical allegory being shown here with Jacob, his brother or co-inhabitatnt (Man #2) and Benjamin.
Can’t wait for the podcast!
May 14th, 2009 at 3:08 am
When watching the closed captioning, Richard is called Ricardus, which is a Latin form. I think he predates the Black Rock, although him making a Black Rock in the bottle probably suggests he is from that time period, I dunno…
DId anti-Locke not really know where Jacob lived, or was it a ruse to get Ben and Co. there?
I think Juliet had a change of heart and mind about Sawyer in the end. The way they looked at each other before she fell, kind of makes me think that she realized that he really did love her, I dunno. Does she set the bomb off to really try to reset things, perhaps giving them a second chance, else why explode it?
I like the idea that next season we will see the Losties and the good side fighting the dark islanders…
Can’t wait to hear the podcast!!!
May 14th, 2009 at 3:10 am
That was a horrible episode. Easily the most disappointing LOST episode I have ever seen. They seemed to drag the double episode without giving us what we really want. I was particularly upset because this season had been so consistent till this point. It was just riddled with problems
1/ Kate and Juliet change their minds in the most erratic and unconvincing manner. Their roles in this episode were unnecessary and ate into 1/3 of this finale
2/ We wait the whole episode for Jack to detonate the bomb. It falls an immeasurable height but.. instead of detonating then, we lose another 5 mins for Juliet to fall down and throw a rock at it.. sigh
3/ Jacob is happy to let Ben kill him… in fact he provokes him with “what about you?”
4/ More favorite losties die. The only way this series can end in a satisfying way now, is if they end up changing the past.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:14 am
Mindstage:
I totally agree that Sayid just stopped the bomb, he thought Jack’s idea was wrong and only tricked him into thinking he would succeed.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:27 am
that’s it… ? That was a whole season of build up … for THAT?
May 14th, 2009 at 3:30 am
Also, Sayid does die. Remember, the dead guy, we thought was Horace in the Dharma jumpsuit with the Horace name tag? Yeah, that’s Sayid.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:41 am
Haven’t read many of the comments, so this is likely already posted.
Did Juliette just invent the button?
May 14th, 2009 at 3:52 am
@Matt from Ohio:
I’m having a brain freeze. I can only remember finding Ben’s father. The Horace thing sounds familiar but I can’t place when it happened. Which episode was that?
@target242:
Yes, I think you’re right that Anti-Jacob knew where Jacob was. Pretending he didn’t know was the only way to get all the people there. Speaking of, remember when Anti-Jacob said something along the lines of “you’ll need rest for what I have planned for you when we see Jacob” or something like that when they’re at the Losties’ original camp? That’s very ominous knowing what we know now …
May 14th, 2009 at 3:54 am
Anybody know what Richard’s real name means?
Poor Locke conned once again, his life story.
Ryan, I really liked your theory re: the loophole and the leader being Ben and only the leader can kill Jacob.
Anybody else think the ending reminded them of “field of dreams” when Ray gets angry that Terrance Mann gets to to the cornfield and he says “all this time I did everything you asked and I never said “What’s in it for me? Now I want to know “What’s in it for me?’. For once Ben got manipulated instead of the other way around.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:54 am
Very disappointed in this clunky season finale. Game changer? Really? We knew all along it’s two people fighting over control of the Island. So it’s two alien shape-shifters and not Ben and Widmore, but that’s hardly a game changer.
I think the real “game changer” will be in the opening of next season. I think the bomb has reset things, but not all the way back. The O6 might find themselves back on crash day with the knowledge of future events. But more likely they will have erased the last 3 years, because that wasn’t supposed to have happened anyway.
As for Jacob and Anti-Jacob, they have to be aliens or time travellers, because the producers have said since the beginning that the answer to everything will be science fiction and not supernatural. Therefore, they can’t be angels, or Egyptian gods, or God & the Devil.
They talked very modern English in the opening scene, so that made me think they must be future time travellers, but something about their conversation sounded like they weren’t human, and little more than disappointed by what they were observing in the human race.
Locke is really dead? Then he died a pathetic patsy and never achieved his redemption. He was used by Anti-Jacob just like his dad used him. How sad.
I am still confused about the body possession by AJ. Apparently, the person needs to be dead, but he obviously doesn’t need the actual body, since Locke’s body is in the metal case. I guess we knew this, because we know Alex’s body is buried and yet he managed to appear as her. But the body needs to be on the Island, or else why go through all that trouble of getting it there?
I also find it confusing as to why the Ajira people didn’t freak out more when they saw Locke walking around alive. They must have put his body in the case, because he was in a coffin in the cargo hold. When Ben asked them what was in the case, at that point they must have known it was Locke.
Jacob wanted the body shown to the others, to stop AJ, but apparently he was too late. But why didn’t Jacob just have Elena kill fake Locke? On the other hand, why not stop the coffin from getting on the plane? Or why not stop John Locke from killing himself to begin with? I’m sure if he appeared to Locke he could have talked him out of it.
So Jacob must have wanted Locke back on the Island for some reason. Maybe the Ajira people were bringing him to the temple to be resurrected. Maybe that’s still a possibility.
I think Locke is still the key to breaking the cycle. Wouldn’t it be funny if the last scene of the series is Jack and Locke taking the places of Jacob and Anti-Jacob?
May 14th, 2009 at 3:55 am
I’m starting to think that Jacob and the man in black are not God and Satan as some have suggested, but rather both are subservient to God. They are archangels – perhaps Michael and the fallen archangel Satan. The archangels are part of numerous religious traditions.
At one point there was a war in heaven between the archangels loyal to God and those loyal to Satan. You can look up that history on many religious sites. Perhaps what is happening on the island is just a continuation of that war to see who will have dominance over man. Both have the ability to assume human form, most likely in the bodies of dead humans. The two bodies we saw at the beginning were just the forms they were using at that time.
The war has been going on for eternity. At some point, after the Black Rock’s arrival, Jacob, with the help of people from the Black Rock (Richard and company) was able to entrap the Man in Black in the cabin. For a period of time, the good side had won. Somehow, however, the Man in Black escaped and the war was back on. This is why Jacob brought all of the 815ers to the island, to use them in the next battle. The Man in Black moves from bodies to bodies working his scheme – sometimes he’s the smoke monster (probably closer to his ethereal form), he’s Christian, Claire, maybe Charlie, Libby and others. This time the Man in Black wins the battle as we saw last night.
I suspect that Jacob will re-appear next year in the body of someone who has recently died. Jacob is not dead. The war for humanity’s soul will continue in Season 6 which may be the ultimate battle.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:56 am
I like using “Dark Locke” to differentiate one Locke from the other.
I’d like to offer “Locke-in-the-Box” for the dead, non-Dark Locke.
Makes me smile every time I say it.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:06 am
on further examination, That prolly was Horace and not Sayid. He had the map to the cabin in his pocket.
My bad.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:09 am
Hmmm, thoughts :
Time hasn’t been reset. Whatever Happened Happened. It’s a rule set in stone. I think the writers were telling us this by underlining Dead Is Dead in this episode.
I agree with others that think Jacob foresaw his own death. And while Anti-Jacob formed his convoluted plan, so did Jacob. Jacob brought Ilana and the others here to do something. Maybe Hurley’s guitar case is important for this. But most telling is that Jacob has already met a number of the Losties and touched them. Did anyone else here see Wrath of Khan? Could Jacob have hidden parts of himself in all of these people only to have himself reconstituted later?
I’m pretty bent out of shape by not seeing Desmond again. So now his appearances this season were utterly pointless. Sure, maybe next season will make his activities valuable, but I think that’s very lame writing.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:11 am
@Carol:
Nice comparison to “Field of Dreams!” It did kinda feel like that, didn’t it? Maybe if Ben hadn’t killed Jacob, he would have been able to go play catch with his father
@JohnFisher
I like the archangels idea. I don’t know that it will ever completely be “this person equals this and that person equals that” but I think that all the stuff being discussed, from God/Devil to archangels to time-traveling aliens are possible in what has been laid out for us. I tend to lean away from the idea that Charlie and Libby and those visiting Hurley are actually Anti-Jacob. I do think it’s likely that Christian and maybe even Claire (last we saw her) are Anti-Jacob but for some reason, what Jacob said to Hurley about being blessed to be visited by his friends makes me think that it is unlikely that Anti-Jacob would be responsible. Although, it’s still possible that Anti-Jacob was taking the form of Jacob in those flashbacks, as HAM in MO originally said.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:12 am
*John Fischer … sorry about the name misspelling! I make typos all the time but I hate to do it with someone’s name.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:20 am
Realistically, they will never go back to reliving the original crash, no way they can get the whole cast back for next season. Next season – 2007 everybody vs. the island.
I heard Damon and Carlton saying they have lots of great surprises for comic-con. Wish I could go. Anybody here planning to go?
May 14th, 2009 at 4:33 am
So, if Jacob’s nemesis is Dark Locke, is he also Christian Sheppard? I think he is.
Who helped the nemesis excape from the cabin by cutting a path in the ash? Fire is obviously the only permanent means of destruction on the Island.
Juliette is not necessarily dead — she too can be catapulted to 2007. But being at the bottom of the Swan’s shaft — sealed in concrete — would that be a good place to be? But then again eletro-magnetism is a wacky thing, capable of just about anything.
We will find that Ben is not nearly as ignorant and going along for the ride as he’s playing.
Pierre Chang severely injured his arm or lost it in the incident. What will be the fate of the remaining Dharma folks in 1977? Is that book closed?
What brought the statue down?
Let’s hear it once again for Rose, Bernard and Vincent. Come on folks, show a little love.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:48 am
@ Sam…I had the same thought about Jacob’s statment to Ben; “What about you?” He wasn’t even remotely trying to keep Ben from killing him. In fact, it seemed as if he was doing exactly the opposite. It appeared as if he were deliberately taunting Ben. So why would he do that?
May 14th, 2009 at 4:56 am
Jesus attitude towards Pilate, Herod would have been considered the same way. It is just that Jacob, like Jesus wants you to CHOOSE your own destiny and make the right choice. Plus, once again, Jacob will rise and he knew that.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:01 am
Wow! First off I loved this episode! Not sure yet if it is my fav., but it is defintely in the running!
From the first scenes with Jacob and his “Friend” I was totally getting a “Seventh Sign” Vibe. Does anyone else remember that movie? Basically the movie is about impending armaggedon, a woman (played by Demi Moore) who is about to give birth learns that there are no more souls in the soul “well”. Anyway she ends up giving her life so that the well is replenished and the world is saved from the final seal being broken. Not sure about this theory, however the interaction between Jacob and the other guy gives the impression that Jacob totally believes in human kind and the other guy does not and would do away with it all.
I’m also left wondering if we will get a Juliet episode like desmond had after he turned the key, or if there is not enough time left and she is just dead, saddness!
Also I believe the group that Jacob refered to as he was dying is Jacks group, and that possibly Hugo has something in the guitar case that will either be used to fight Bad Locke or “resurect” Jacob after they arrive.
And I actually shouted at the tv when they showed Sun looking at the cradle, “Please, find that ring!!”
It’s going to be a long 8 months! Love the PodCast!
May 14th, 2009 at 5:02 am
“What about you?” He wasn’t even remotely trying to keep Ben from killing him. In fact, it seemed as if he was doing exactly the opposite. It appeared as if he were deliberately taunting Ben. So why would he do that?
—–
I think Jacob knew that Ben was going to kill him. It was Ben’s destiny for a very long time. More, however, I think for Ben ultimately to be redeemed, he had to fall to the bottom, to do evil’s bidding. Once he understands what he has done, he can begin to redeem himself. I still have hope that Ben will be the one who saves them all.
How ironic that the two actors in LOST who are widely considered the best actors as well as two of the most popular characters, have both been mere pawns for much of their lives? Both Locke and Ben have dedicated so much of their lives to doing the bidding of someone else, someone apparently evil.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:03 am
Okay, I have two questions that just occurred to me.
When Alana visited Jacob’s cabin in 2007, she said “someone has been using it.”
Did she mean Jacob’s adversary had been there until recently? Is the ash mote some sort of containment device to keep him in the perimeter?
And finally, did not Rose and Bernard’s cabin in 1977 look a LOT like Jacob’s cabin, only in much better condition?
May 14th, 2009 at 5:15 am
I belive the statue is of Anubis – god of the after life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
If that is true – is the island some sort of purgatory?
May 14th, 2009 at 5:20 am
Sigh,
This was good and all but the show is just soooo far gone from the first 3 seasons. Seriously Walt doesn’t play any bigger part in the arc of the story? Aaron, um wasn’t he ultra important? The numbers………..not in the story at all?
The more crazy stuff they throw in the less interesting it becomes. I think all the connections are being presented horribly and the mystery if fading away.
Anyone else think Locke in that metal box was the most captain obvious thing ever?
Sorry if I sound like a complainer I’m just so sad at what is happening to my favorite show =(
May 14th, 2009 at 5:21 am
1. My wife and I have been thinking that Locke was really dead since Ben said “Dead is Dead”. That was the name of that episode too and so we took it pretty seriously. (We also thought that foreshadowing was pretty heavy when John came out of the woods just after Ben said he couldn’t control what was about to come out of the woods.)
2. Locke is being inhabited by the guy we saw at the beginning of the episode dressed in black and talking to Jacob. We’ve been hearing since season 2 that there is “a war coming”. Everybody thought it was between Ben and Widmore, but I saw on this blog a while ago a theory (which I’ve thought was right on) that the real war was between Jacob and Christian – Jacks’s dad, or some other entity that was trying to take over the island. I think we saw that person (thing) last night. Based on all of the hieroglyphics on the island, I’m guessing it’s Anubis (the Egyptian god of the underworld). I’m thinking Jacob is RA. …Or at least the two entities that the Egyptians thought of as those two gods.
3. That brings us to Charlie’s question from season two: “Where are we?” I think that the island is a little bit of the lost island of Atlantis. When Plato (or was it Homer?) saw it “sink” really it was the island moving like we saw last season. I don’t know what happened to the rest of Atlantis, but I think this is only a portion of it. From what I’ve heard, the legend of Atlantis is that it had an Egyptian culture. That would fit.
4. My wife noticed something I found brilliant last night. When the Logo came on the screen last night at the end, it was white on white and then black on white as opposed to the white on black we’ve seen every season up to now.
5. I think the last season is going to start with a confrontation with John Locke and then an explanation of what the island is (answering Charlie’s question), and the rest of the season is going to be about the followers of Jacob doing battle with this new entity we just discovered. (… this just occurred to me… what if RA and Anubis were banished to this island and are essentially – although they can leave occasionally – and the “loophole they were talking about are the rules/magic that keeps them there).
6. Also there are a lot of similarities between this and the book The Stand. The writers keep saying it is a major influence on the series.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:36 am
If we can assume that the evil force portrayed by the man in black at the beginning, Locke at the end and presumably also Christian in the cabin and at the bottom of the well, and Alex in the Temple, then it seems that this entity can inhabit one body at a time albeit in different guises. Then the question becomes what was Claire’s status when we saw her in the cabin with Christian. If she was indeed alive, where has she been for the past 3 years. If she is dead, who or what is manifesting itself in her body. Could Jacob have been appearing as Claire and both Jacob and the evil one been there giving Locke instructions in the cabin? If Jacob is not really dead, will his new manifestation for season 6 be in the form of Claire? Is that how Claire will be for season 6. The real Claire died in the explosion?
May 14th, 2009 at 5:40 am
History erasing button . . .
What a load of dung.
Poof!
May 14th, 2009 at 5:44 am
I agree that Jacob and Darkness (for lack of a better name) are locked in an eternal struggle between good and evil. Darkness says the cycle always ends the same, then Jacob replies that will only end once: everything that happened before is simply progress.
I guess Darkness can take the form of any dead body located on the island: Christian, Boone, Eko’s brother, Claire, Charlie, Libby, Ben’s daughter, and now Locke.
Everything that Locke did on the island (before dying) has given Dark Locke credibility with Ben and Alpert, so much so that they accept his supposed return from the dead. And accept him as leader.
The close up shot of the eye opening after the explosion – I’m almost positive that it’s Elizabeth Mitchell’s green eyes. Juliet is still alive!
Great, great episode.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:45 am
I agree with @Kaysea that there was some ambiguity about who was good or evil (black and white shirts notwithstanding).
Does getting Kate out of childhood shoplifting help her or set her on her path of crime? Maybe the confrontation with the police/parents would have straightened her out.
Does giving Sawyer the pen comfort him or make vengeance the focus of his life where he becomes the thing he hates?
Does reviving Locke really do him a favor? With what we know by the end of the episode it just postpones his life to serve as a dupe until he is killed by Ben.
I also think that a lot of the decisions about blowing up the bomb were changed way too frequently without enough convincing motivation. It was a hydrogen bomb!
Also the ending was a little too open. Anything could happen now which isn’t that suspenseful. The bomb could just be an out for anything to be presented next season. The S4 finale changed things and led to much happy speculation about what would happen next. But it also confirmed that S5 would have to deal with the what happened in the finale. The S5 finale doesn’t really have that big a bang despite the h-bomb.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:46 am
Funky Dunky – My screen went black also, like somebody turned a lightswitch off then on again. It was right when they did a close-up of Jacob’s face. I thought this was intentional. Did this happen to anybody else?
May 14th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Not sure the relevance of this, but the fish that Jacob caught at the start of the episode…. was a Red Herring.
May 14th, 2009 at 5:58 am
“All hell is going to break loose.” Words are never inconsequential on Lost. I haven’t kept a running tally, but we must have heard at least 40 references to hell over the years. The most overt suggestion about finding hell came from Anthony Cooper as he met Sawyer in the brig of the Black Rock. Pierre Chang’s comment above takes me back to the Pandora’s Box allusions of seasons gone by. Have our Lostaways inadvertently “opened the box” and unleashed unspeakable evils upon the world?
I found it very telling that Jacob did NOT make an appearance in Juliet’s flashback. She wasn’t woven into the master tapestry of Fate and called to the island by the omnipresent Jacob. Does that make her actions unforseen or is she, like Ben, just an afterthought to the inscrutable, demanding father? Without Juliet, Jughead doesn’t create the white flash.
The opening scene of this episode was off the map, so to speak, and takes us finally toward the heart of the island mythology. We see the supreme manifestation of the nesting dolls of a power struggle taking plave over the island. Is it Jack vs. Locke? Think bigger. Ben vs. Widmore. Go behind the curtain. It’s nothing less than the ultimate conflict of Dark vs. Light.
Esau believes human nature has proven him right, that even Jacob’s chosen “candidates” devolve into selfishness, corruption, and chaos. Therefore, the island and, by extension, the world should remain static, unpopulated, draped in darkness. Jacob still sees progress and hope that humans will eventually overcome their weaknesses and change one of the core variables that will permit redemption.
“Things will change once he’s gone, I promise.” Because there will be no tension, no balance, only darkness. We have a choice, we can change things, but this is not the kind of change that we had hoped to have delivered.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:01 am
It was a great episode answering some questions and creating new ones. I do have a theory that the bodies need to be burned in order to prevent the “entities” from possessing them, so now Jacob can possess the Locke corpse that was in the box. So Terry Quinn might have double acting duty next season! And we will spend all next season trying to figure out if it was Jacob Locke or Anti- Jacob Locke doing things through the next season.
My only complaint is that how can Jacob who lives forever, bestows eternal life, heals people and travels through time and space, so easily stabbed by Ben?? Does 2 entities in the same room negate each other and thus become vulnerable?? So if the 2 entities cant destroy each other due to some cosmic rule, then the loophole is having a third person in the room?
I am assumming that Jacob greatest power is that he has foresight and plans things way ahead. So the guitar case and the New Others may be his Ace in the sleeve.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:08 am
Jen, oh Jen, when Jack said ‘I had her and I lost her…’ I heard Jen’s groan all the way over here in California. That his decision came down to Kate, I knew would not sit well with Jen. Was not a good moment for the Anti-Kate losties out there. I have to say, when Juliet was telling Sawyer how much she loved him and he was telling her not to let go, completely gut wrenching. I’m sorry Jen I know you’re not a ’shipper’. But that’s why LOST is so amazing. You get the sci-fi, the mythology, character development, the daddy issues, yes even a little shipper action. It has something for everyone to sink their teeth into. I LOVE this show. What will I do when it’s gone? Watch all 6 seasons on DVD of course! The line Miles gave about maybe Jack throwing the bomb in the hole was the incident all along was great. I don’t think it was a throw away line. I think for some of us that don’t get a chance to really delve in to LOST’s every detail, it was something we’d all been thinking and Miles put it out there for us. Lock, Claire, Alex, Christian, Charlie dead is dead. Mixed feelings about season 6, can’t wait for it but sad that I will need to find another way to fill my Wednesday nights….maybe FlashBack? Who knows.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:16 am
John Fisher, you raise a really interesting point about Claire. If we assume that the evil guy can inhabit dead bodies (and this must have something to do with the fact that the bodies have to be buried on the island although locke wasn’t burried yet but also not decomposed) and that he in fact has inhabited Christian, can he inhabit two bodies at once (Claire and Christian?) That seems to be pushing it. So I’m now thinking that maybe Claire didn’t die but that she is being manipulated by evil Christian because she and the whole Shepard clan seem to be so critical to what is going to happen in season 6. She is part of evil guy’s plot to take over the island and kill Jacob. Because he takes her, aaron goes with Kate, and Kate goes back to the island.
It’s going to be a long head-spinning 8 months.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:17 am
I think the most powerful emotion is thinking about erasing everything and never knowing something happened. Kind of like dying. Right when Jack was dropping the bomb, the cut to all of their faces… I almost lost it.
Read about Jacob (and his brother Esau) on Wikipedia. Interesting relationship.
Nice cavalry in the microbus. If I was not laying down, I would have been up on my feet!!
May 14th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Many Bloggers have stated that they all think and Rose and Bernard are the “Adam and Eve” from the cave in season 1. But, that can’t be because when Jack discovered them, he speculated that the amount of decomposition of the bodies would place them at least 50 or so years prior to 2004, when he discovered them?
May 14th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Can’t believe people were disappointed with this episode. What were you expecting? This was the *season* finale, not the *series* finale… still have a season to go, people.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:27 am
I was a little disappointed seeing Rose and Bernard by themselves in the bushes. Does that mean the end of our beloved background characters? Did the last of them die in the rain of flaming arrows, or did some survive, only to die of headaches and nosebleeds?
Or, hey: maybe the “reset button” will mean that they all arrive safely in LA and go back to carrying logs and tightening tarps in their mainland lives. We can only hope.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:29 am
Randoms:
- Jacob is not necessarily ‘good’ –
- If DeadLocke now takes the form of Jacob to deceive Richard and Ben tells Richard it is no longer Jacob, Richard will assume Ben is lying, as that is all he ever does anymore.
- If “They are coming” refers to the 1977 Losties, maybe the contents of the guitar case are intended to aid in the ‘war’
- Does this mean Widmore, who wanted Locke to return to the island, is on the side AGAINST Jacob? And if so, does this mean Miss Hawking was, too? Was she in cahoots with Widmore to get Desmond to the island?
-Bram and Iliana appear to be on the side of Jacob & RA, and knew Locke’s dead body would be significant, and Bram tried to prevent Miles from going on the freighter, so they must also be on the opposite side as Widmore, too.
- At the beginning Jacob is asked if he brought the ship to the island, and he confirms it (I believe) so if he does this by going and ‘touching’ people, like he did of the Losties, is it because he knows they are reincarnations of the souls of the same people that have been waging this war on the island?
- This episode was so epic that the full profile view of the statue is not even the 5th or 6th main topic! I love it!
-Does Paul’s ankh and the return of his corpse to the others mean he was an Other at one time?
May 14th, 2009 at 6:29 am
If they pull a Dallas on us for next season…
May 14th, 2009 at 6:31 am
Ok, so if Esau, or Anti-Jacob was really in the cabin. Then that would assume the cabin is much older than the one we already assumed was the cabin that Horace was building when seen by Locke in Season 3? I think it might possibly be the reverse. That Jacob was in the cabin and trapped by the circle of ash by Esau (A.J.) or the others under the control of Anti-Jacob. then Jacob somehow escaped. That’s why Ilana was so worried to see that the circle had been broken.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:32 am
I think we all expected the ending – the bomb will go off and we won’t see what happens so that didn’t disappoint me.
But if we are to believe that Jacob and Anti-Jacob are personified Good and Evil, Satan and God, if you will, then the whole killing part seems way trivial and… human.
All right, they’re having a war and using losties as pawns, but isn’t the war of good and evil a war that neither side will win? (And us humans simply have to choose a side:P) Like Backgammon or chess pieces – you can’t delete either side or the game will stop existing. Honestly, I don’t think Good should be able to overcome Evil or vice versa, they are just two sides of the same coin.
So really, the killing part… was unnecessary.
Unless…
Anti-Jacob merely plotted to kill Jacob’s human form – his essence however, cannot be killed. Jacob and AJ took human form for a reason, even if it was just to play their little chess game. They cannot attack each other but are vulnerable to attacks from other humans. Jacob likes to believe in the goodness of man while AJ believes the opposite. Their fight can’t have an ultimate winner, but in a framework (= Earth / The Island) one side can win. Game over. Game restart.
In this game, humans still have their freedom of choice and thought. They can only be manipulated by AJ and Jacob but they are the ones who make the final choices.
So I agree with former posters, there are two stories going – an earthly story with humans and a spiritual story with Good and Evil.
(Then again, let’s assume that’s all bulls**t, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse are just building a cult for themselves and in the end of the 6th season devoted Lost fans will be invited to The Island to wait for The Spaceship and all.)
May 14th, 2009 at 6:34 am
Randoms:
- Jacob is not necessarily ‘good’ –
- If DeadLocke now takes the form of Jacob to deceive Richard and Ben tells Richard it is no longer Jacob, Richard will assume Ben is lying, as that is all he ever does anymore.
- If “They are coming” refers to the 1977 Losties, maybe the contents of the guitar case are intended to aid in the ‘war’
- Does this mean Widmore, who wanted Locke to return to the island, is on the side AGAINST Jacob? And if so, does this mean Miss Hawking was, too? Was she in cahoots with Widmore to get Desmond to the island?
-Bram and Iliana appear to be on the side of Jacob & RA, and knew Locke’s dead body would be significant, and Bram tried to prevent Miles from going on the freighter, so they must also be on the opposite side as Widmore, too.
- At the beginning Jacob is asked if he brought the ship to the island, and he confirms it (I believe) so if he does this by going and ‘touching’ people, like he did of the Losties, is it because he knows they are reincarnations of the souls of the same people that have been waging this war on the island?
- This episode was so epic that the full profile view of the statue is not even the 5th or 6th main topic! I love it!
-Does Paul’s ankh and the return of his corpse to the others mean he was an Other at one time?
- For how long has Jacob’s opponent been habitating Locke’s body? Since Locke encountered the monster in season 1? Is that why he appeared to vacillate between self-assuredness about himself and the island and being a fragile, unsure man? Or maybe during time traveling at some point the looping causing two Locke’s gave him the opportunity to possess one of the bodies of Locke? Then DeadLocke only needed await the return of Ben with John’s body for all to believe he was the returned-to-life leader of the Others?
May 14th, 2009 at 6:35 am
The Black Rock off the coast of the island makes no sense. How did it get half-way into the jungle where we previously knew if it were casually floating off the coast? Power of the island. My assumption was originally that it got to the island the same way Ajira 316 and Oceanic 815 got there. through some kind of window as described by Ms. Hawking…i know that in that opening scene it makes sense but it doesn’t from a continuity stand-point!
May 14th, 2009 at 6:35 am
What Richard says is ILLE QUI NOS OMNES SERVABIT which translates to
HE WHO WILL PROTECT US ALL
http://www.latinlanguage.us/blog/index.php?blog=2&title=ligille_qui_nos_omnes_servabitl_ig&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
May 14th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Great comments here! I’ve just spent the last hour reading them while I should be working.
I noticed a couple things concerning Juliet. First, Jacob didn’t appear in her flashback. I wonder why.
And when she was pulled down the hole by the chains it reminded me of the Smoke Monster when it pulls people under. Just a thought.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:06 am
@ Casey & John Fischer
Perhaps the “what about you?” line wasn’t contemptuous and dismissive, but more of a gentle challenge to Ben to demonstrate his mettle and prove his worthiness. Obviously, he misunderstood, let his emotions get the better of him, and failed miserably.
@ CuedblU Ben and Richard at least cannot be conscious of being caught in an infinite time loop as many have speculated or they would not have been so easily duped by impostor Locke. May Jacob be aware even about the sacrifice of himself since he spins the fabric of Fate?
Is the embodiment of Christian Sheperd in particular and the other manifestations of the dead just a vehicle for the Dark Player? (@ Jesse Again. He was the someone else occupying Jacob’s cabin. It had to be Jacob’s or else Ilana wouldn’t be seeking him there.) I can see the manifestation of Dave in a whole new light now. That was the devil tempting Hurley to jump in an effort to destroy one that Jacob loved and had high hopes for.
Loved the symbolism of Juliet wrapped in chains like Jacob Marley’s ghost (and Regina before her.)
@MLE The rainbow was probably a fortunate accident, but that was a great reference to the flood, a triumph for chaos and darkness in the destruction of the world. Thanks for the song & the mention last podcast!
May 14th, 2009 at 7:06 am
@christy in TX –
I had the thought about Anti-Jacob posing as real Jacob as well but I wonder if burning the body would prohibit him from taking Jacob’s shape. We know Anti-Jacbo doesn’t really inhabit the body since he was walking around as Locke while Locke’s real body was in the box. But it’ll still be interesting to see what (if any) rules there are about how Anti-Jacob can pose as someone.
Also, I agree Jacob may not be good but from the little bit we’ve seen tonight, I kinda want him to be good.
As for Eloise and Widmore possibly being on Anti-Locke’s side since they helped bring Locke’s body to the island, I’m not sure. They also seemed interested in getting everyone else who had left the island back there too. It’s looking to me like Jacob also wanted Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Sun to come back … perhaps even Locke as well? I think it’s all still a toss up as to who is on who’s side. It does seem likely, though, based on what Widmore said to Locke about a war coming, that he knows there are sides to take but I’m not sure he can clearly see which side is which. Didn’t Ben also make mention of a war coming? It seems likely that many characters (really all other than perhaps Ilana and Co plus Richard, with Frank as a “candidate” to be in the know with them) only know vague ideas about Jacob and Anti-Jacob but aren’t informed enough to know which side to take yet.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:10 am
@Rich in Cleveland –
Great point about Dave trying to get Hurley to jump! Only thing is that as far as we can tell, Anti-Locke has only taken the form of bodies that are on the island, right? Maybe Dave’s body *is* on the island but I seem to recall Darlton saying that we wouldn’t revisit Dave so we’ll never know for sure. Or I could just be making that up in my head that Darlton said that …
May 14th, 2009 at 7:11 am
@ Christy
Didn’t you feel AJ was evil right out of the gate when he spoke with such malice about how badly he wanted to kill Jacob? He didn’t even offer up the pretense that he was the “good guy.”
May 14th, 2009 at 7:30 am
THANK JACOB ROSE AND BERNARD WERE STILL ALIVE!!!
THAT was the peak of my experience of last night’s episode of LOST, seeing them alive!!
And what is funny, they personified the mood and lifestyle of the DHARMA Initiative, didn’t you think? (living in peace and harmony).
Personifying peace over war and the essance of “being together” and enjoying each other’s company, WOW!!
“if we die, we die…..atleast we have each other in the end” amazing twist on that episode.
What a concept. Excellent, excellent writing for that schene!!!
~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~
May 14th, 2009 at 7:50 am
I have to hope that Adam & Eve in the cave are Sawyer and Juliet! How you ask since Juliet is dead and on her way to another tv show destination? I’m hoping that in the series finale Sawyer finds a way to go back in time to 1977 – grab his lady love – then somehow teleport even farther back in time where he and Juliet can do a Rose & Bernard and just hang out until they die.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:52 am
I love reading all these wonderful speculations!
It appears to me that Daniel might have been right about the concept of a Variable having an effect on the island’s timeline. Except that the Variable was Juliet.
There was a very good reason why we were shown Juliet’s flashback, and it wasn’t to justify her silly reason for ‘breaking up’ with Sawyer. All the other flashbacks had Jacob in them, indicating that he could predict which people he would need to influence for an as-of-yet undisclosed purpose.
One of those people was NOT Juliet. Yet we were given a peak into her backstory in the same manner as the others.
Additionally, Juliet is not part of the original Losties who now seem to be handpicked by Jacob. Having her involved with the events surrounding the island — and specifically the Incident — might not have been foreseen by Jacob.
Her role in the story is not driven by ‘destiny’ but by her own free-will, a notably wishy-washy brand of freewill as we see her change her mind once they get off the sub and face Jack. Ironically, it now seems that she in fact does have a destiny, more so than any other person on the island — she single-handedly causes, or prevents, the Incident.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:54 am
people keep mentioning that the juliette set off the bomb–whay makes you think the bomb went off? It is this device that dharma builds the chernobyl concrete wall around. The white at the end i beleive was the flash moving the forward in time. jacob says—”they are coming” which i think is the losties coming back to the present. When jacob dies it pulls the 77 losties back to the future–that event occured as juliette was banging the bomb. Plus if the bomb did go off then you would have two options–1. No change in time–so all are dead from explosion. 2. The change the future–the plane doesnt crash and they all get off in LA which = no show.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:54 am
That Rose and Bernard scene felt a lot like “we never intended to develop any story around the other survivors that time jumped, but you people keep asking about Rose and Bernard, well fine. Here you go. This is what you get. Now shut up and go away… and vincent is with them too so lay off about that and no the other people that were running from the arrows aren’t there… What? yes, that old man and woman are that stealthy and their survivor skills are at such a level as to pull a Rousseau and avoid everyone while stealing food… now really this is all you get no more plot hole filling for us today… and again they aren’t going to talk about time travel because it’s a normal occurrence.”
May 14th, 2009 at 7:55 am
I totally disagree with Ryan’s write up and Jen’s disappointment in the episode. I loved the show! Almost all the moments Ryan thought didn’t work, I thought were great. This was an excellent episode and I’m confused as ever!
May 14th, 2009 at 7:58 am
I’ve only been able to read through about half of the posts on here – so sorry if I repeat someone…
First of all, the phrase on the wall above Jacob in the beginning seems to to say something about the Gods only having so many gifts to give… And if you think about it, in addition to touching each of the Losties, Jacob also gave each of them a gift. Kate – money/lunchbox, Jack – Apollo bar, Hurley – guitar case, Locke & Sayid – life, and Sun and Jin – well, the only thing I can think of is advice or good luck wishes, which is admittedly a bit weak. And yes, Locke gets life and Jack gets an Apollo bar? I dunno…. Maybe Sayid and Locke got life because they were the only two who would have died pre-island. In any case, kind of interesting.
I’d rather call second Locke, Dark Locke rather than anit-Jacob.
Are Juliet and Sayid really dead if the bomb went off before they took their final breath? I say not… Locke, however, was dead as dead.
I also don’t see how Ilana was not surprised when she saw Locke alive, but also knew he was dead and in a box. Do we know when they found Locke’s body? Was it after Locke had already taken off with Ben? maybe.
I think Dark Locke = smoke moster = Jacob’s “friend” in the black shirt
Jack wants to erase the last 3 years just because he lost Kate? Sorry, that’s retarded. I don’t even think he really lost her – that he could get her back if he just tried…. and really, we didn’t see enough of them “together” to really think they even cared for each other that deeply. And Juliet changes her mind because of one look…again, kinda weak.
I feel it was all too rushed – they REALLY should have kept to the normal 22-23 episodes per season for the remaining 3 years instead of shortening to 16. That was just a very stupid thing to do and just does a great injustice to all the characters.
Maybe more later once I get a chance to read through the rest of the comments here…
May 14th, 2009 at 8:06 am
I thought this was a fair finale. I loved how Jacob offered the “darkness” some fish to eat (sort of biblical huh?). It seemed anticlimactic the way that Ben ended up stabbing Jacob and then dying. But I guess we’ll just have to wait till 2010 to find out what’s the deal with all this. There are some huge loose ends to tie up here!
Oh, the store that Kate stole from was “The Market” or “Pa’ala Kai Market” I used to live right down the road as a kid and go there everyday. It was good to see the store make it into LOST. Aloha!
May 14th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Wow, you’re blog post was a total downer. I enjoyed this episode more than any I had ever seen. Every single scene left me more excited. I do hope Jen gets over it because the story just got awesome on a whole new level.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:13 am
are we sure Ben is “good?” I mean why did he bring Locke’s body back? If bad Locke needed it…seems like he knew he was working for the bad guys, right? What did he say were the reasons for bringing the body? To simulate the original flight? Who told him to do that? Eloise? So is she worknig with bad Locke??
my brain hurts…I love it!
May 14th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Ryan,
Your blog writing is elegant. How you manage to prepare your fine essays and the podcast are both a testament to your passion for Lost and your incredible writing talent.
I really appreciate your insights, and your ability to find both the good and bad in this television show.
Now that Lost is over, I will pine for the podcast which always helped me get to sleep.
I will write some comments soon, since I have many observations, but wanted to give a shout-out to the amazing job that you and Jen perform.
There are so many of us that wake up early in the morning, eager to read what your mind put down.
Thank you for that.
James
May 14th, 2009 at 8:18 am
I agree with Ben.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:23 am
hey again Ryan and Jen!
I, too, was a little bummed to read your blog. I hate that you were disappointed with this episode.
I see some of your frustrations, but I think overall this episode was excellent! I agree with someone’s post earlier that it was really almost to point out that they are just human.
One thing I’ve been thinking is that with the screen turning into white at the end of the episode, it reminded me of the ‘flashes’ earlier this season. Almost like there was a reason they showed us the screen turning white in the flashes. Perhaps the bomb didn’t really go off, but that they are just in another flash which will bring them to the ‘war’ in 2007 (or whenever it will take place).
I don’t think Jacob is dead… that was just too easy.
I don’t think Syid is dead… there was a reason Jacob brought him to the island.
I still stick to my guns that Ben will turn out to be a good guy and perhaps even their savior.
I don’t think Juliet is dead… don’t know why they made it a point NOT to show Jacob in her flashback, but I do believe there is a reason she was on the island. I don’t see her as just a causality in all this.
I am confused as to how the DI fits into the battle between good and evil. Any ideas? and how does Whidmore fit in?
I am still ‘blown away’ (haha) from this episode!!
May 14th, 2009 at 8:27 am
OK, I’ve been thinking… what if the entity in the cabin has ALWAYS been AntiJacob? Then he would be the one giving all the info to Ben and asking him to follow the dark side of things. Richard said that the statue is where Jacob has lived for a long time (sorry, i forget the quote) and not in the cabin.
So, all things associated with the cabin could be the AntiJacob’s doing: Horace building it, Christian and Claire in it, and Locke and Ben following orders from who they BELIEVED to be the real Jacob.
Hmmm…
May 14th, 2009 at 8:27 am
Ryan & Jen–
I think you’re being a little too hard on at least one bisection of the paraloveogram. Sawyer & Juliet were dead on to me. The “look” was not just a forced device. It was set up beautifully by Rose and Bernard’s tale., a model for true love on an island paradise. Almost instinctively, when Sawyer imagined sharing such a life with the one he loved, he looked to Kate. Also, Sawyer’s expression to Jack that we all derive some benefit from even our most noble actions rang true and seemed to be borne out by what followed. Finally, Juliet’s release was heart-wrenching and definitely got to me. Josh Holloway’s best work.
As for Jack and Kate, I still can’t figure out what they’re doing. I never believed Kate’s whole rationale for returning in the first and Jack is naturally heartbroken, but only a pretty sick person would detonate a H-bomb just to rid himself of that pain when, as Sawyer again correctly points out, Jack could just walk the few feet over to Kate and summon the courage to try and love again (the first cut is the deepest…..) Isnt this what revitalized, Zen Jack should do? My only disappointment with the episode.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Miles could be very important next year since he can sense who is really dead. I would love to have him “speak” to dead Locke. I hope Miles can travel time as well.
I love the irony of Locke, who managed a box company, ends up in a box.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Lost is back. Let me explain why.
I was the one who posted some very cynical remarks on here a few episodes back. And watching the clip show that preceded the finale last night only confirmed how confusing Season Five was.
But it wasn’t because of time travel, curiously.
It was the shifting and often weak motivations, lack of character focus, but most of all, the bizarre way that Lost incorporated “dead people.”
A show that was so devoted to science fiction seemed to have too many dead people coming and going, and for me, the stakes were not the same. There was too much of a feeling that “anything goes.”
What was soothing in the finale last night was the way the explained those visages of dead people, all the way back to Christian in Season One! Okay, maybe it is a bit supernatural to possess a dead body, like Christian or Locke, but that works for me, because “dead is dead.”
This new meta-story about Jacob and Anti-Jacob is thrilling to me. Moral choices, free will, and perpetual time loops that don’t change unless you…
Transcend the system. Desmond pushing the button for love; Jack throwing the bomb down the hole; extreme choices, human choices. I don’t know where it will go, but taking the deep back story to something higher than Widmore and Ben seems like the right move now.
Lost was always a story that got bigger with each season, but that stopped in the last two seasons when the Ben Vs. Widmore became the chess game, and this seemed trivial to me.
I am happy that the producers have grounded are story in a larger context now, with more profound implications.
Having given my compliments, the episode was not without its curiosities.
The Rose and Bernard sequence was jarring, bizarre, and made worse by a sentimental soundtrack. Out of nowhere comes this strange appeal to lose our mission and suspense, almost as if Lost was breaking the narrative fourth wall, and making us appeal to our higher hippie. In its own episode, it could have been cool, but in the context of this finale, it was just wrong, and clearly there to tie up a loose end. Watch it again, and listen to that sentimental music.
Miles’ logical comment was terrific, but why had no one thought of this? What happened, happened! It has to be this way. Detonating that bomb seemed ill-motivated.
Regarding the love triangles. Yes, I finally agree Jen and Ryan. You know, Ayn Rand made the same mistake with Atlas Shrugged. Too many love interests, so we can’t as an audience root for any one direction. Love triangles work for a while, but then they become murky and distracting. Desmond and Penny work so well because it is an actual love, and we want the lovers to re-unite against all odds.
I am optimistic about next season. I thing they have a clean slate to work with. They can re-tell season one, if they wanted. I think they are going to go to something much simpler, and will no longer try to synergize so many complicated scenarios and characters.
Watch… Season 6 will be like Season One. It will be fantastic! Have faith!
James
May 14th, 2009 at 8:53 am
There is no way things flash forward and they all land in LA safe and sound. That result would be the worst from a storytelling perspective, mainly because it would undo 5 seasons worth of character development.
I found a couple flaws in this episode with regards to Jack. All the sudden he’s a sniper. Sure he’s a surgeon and has good hand eye co-ordination, but he had to have busted caps into about 5 or 6 guys last night, all of which were trying to shoot at him too. Second is the fight with Sawyer. I perceive Sawyer being a sass talker and general low-life swindler he’d probably know how to give and take a punch. I’m sure Jack has fought somewhere along the line in the show, but I never figured he would really hold his own against Sawyer.
I’ve found over the last couple episodes they have really diminished the importance of Richard. A couple of weeks ago I thought he was a key cog in the whole story. Now he’s just some guy who really doesn’t know anything aside from stuff he learned from the time travelers.
I was just discussing how you could tell the contract between Locke and DarkLocke. Locke left the island, very unsure of things, bumbled through the whole process to get everyone to come back and died as prophecized. DarkLocke comes into being when they return to the island, in the same way Christian exists. He is very sure of himself, has a laundry list of things to do and places to be. In retrospect you can see how the situation was manipulated, in a fashion even beyond Ben’s abilities. DarkLocke took Richard to meet Locke in the jungle and fed him the information about Locke having to die, hence setting in motion this self fulfilling prophecy about being the leader. Locke would have had no way of knowing where and when he was when Richard just popped out of the jungle to save his life. DarkLocke took Ben to the temple where he was faced with threats from his darkest fear to ensure his obedience. He then goaded Ben into action, in the same way Ben goaded Sayid into attempting to kill him as a child. That’s some clever storytelling there.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Lost is epic television. This blog, and the podcast, are appropriate. But, I hope all the time and energy expended will in retrospect be seen as appropriate. I made the decision 3 years ago to just hop on and enjoy the ride. My patience, and credulity, was being tortured, but the torture was so well done, I decided WTF.
This season has had real highs and lows. I suspect the finale to be a low. I think my reactions are summed by others, and I quote them-
————-”Mindstage Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Finally, isn’t it obvious that Sayid’s “modification” to the bomb was to disarm it? I mean, we didn’t really hear an explosion – just a flash to white. The last minute introduction by Miles of the concept that exploding the bomb may actually cause the incident rather than repel it seems to support the conclusion.
Joy Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 1:33 am
I was a little dismayed by the whole episode and really felt like I needed to immediately watch it again, except that it was WAY past my bedtime so that’ll have to wait for tonight. I had a lot of the same thoughts wrt so many of the events being controlled by the love quadrangle. I found that kind of irritating. I mean, I was happier thinking Jack was doing all this in an attempt to save lives. That made sense to me. He’s a doctor! Whee! But he’s doing it because he lost Kate? WTF? Hello, if the plane lands, she’s going to prison for-freakin-ever. And then Juliet does the 180 because Sawyer looks at Kate at a dramatic moment. Puh-lease. To me, both those actions were very far outside what we know of those characters to this point.
The interesting question that I was left with, even as tired as I was last night, was whether Jughead’s explosion changed anything.
Al from Maryland Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:28 am
Jacob was a dissapointment. They picked the worst answer to “who’s Jacob”.
And speaking of almost dead Locke. Now we know he’s truly dead, and we have an imposter posing as Locke. Worst Answer possible.
Locke’s mission to kill Jacob? Was it to release him? to actually help him? To expose Ben’s fraud? Was it something interesting like that? No, it was to murder jacob for reasons unknown to us. Worst Answer Possible.
What about this bomb plot? Will it be averted? Will they really set off a NUKE on the island? But wont that permanently kill all the Dharma non-time-travelers? And Jack, is it really fair to wipe out other people’s time lines so that you can land in LA in 2004? What on earth is possibly appealing to this idea that the writers really want to go there? Well, they manage to blow the bomb and get the cliche’d white screen of death. Worst Possible Result.
So, here we are, left with these Urgent Questions: Will the losties die in the blast or be transported to 2004? to 2007? Will SunJin ever be reunited? Is the future changed or is WHH true? I’ll tell you what’s true: WCC — Whoever Cares, Cares.
Another Plus side: The wait to 2010 wont be filled with unbearable antici…pation!
Matt from Ohio Says:
May 14th, 2009 at 2:52 am
Season 6 will be ALL the Losties in 2007 trying to help Richard/Jacob stop the Darkness, who will still be played by Terry O-Quinn. What a season it will be!”——————-
Will it? I certainly hope so. The wait will not be as unbearable as it has seemed in the past. Too bad. I will look forward to taking up with old friends, but no longer harbor the expectation that in the end this will come to more than a cleverly written, and well acted entertainment. Carleton, Damon, writing crew… surprise me. I would like nothing more.
May 14th, 2009 at 9:02 am
So, do we get a 2 hour podcast to correspond to the 2 hour finale? Maybe you get both sponsors on board because there’s going to be incredible demand judging by the number of posts so far.
The head of the statue was definitely a crocodile. I got this from Wiki about Sobek:
Sobek was the deification of crocodiles, as crocodiles were deeply feared in the nation so dependent on the Nile River. Egyptians who worked or travelled on the Nile hoped that if they prayed to Sobek, the crocodile god, he would protect them from being attacked by crocodiles.[1] The god Sobek, which was depicted as a crocodile or a man with the head of a crocodile was a powerful and frightening deity; in some Egyptian creation myths, it was Sobek who first came out of the waters of chaos to create the world.[1] As a creator god, he was occasionally linked with the sun god Ra
Gradually, Sobek also came to symbolize the produce of the Nile and the fertility that it brought to the land; its status thus became more ambiguous.
Sobek’s ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself for example, going to Duat to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death
May 14th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Well said Ben!
I agree, I thought this was one of the best episodes EVER.
My threory:
Jacob= White Smoke Monster (That Locke saw In Walkabout)
Esau= Black Smoke Monster.
Good vs Evil,
May 14th, 2009 at 9:16 am
to DocJKM – antici…pation:D:D Rocky Horror Picture Show?
While I thoroughly enjoy everyone’s constructive critique and agree on most parts I’d like to remind you of something…
Lost is a TV Show. The fact that a TV Show even makes us argue and think so heatedly is amazing. All the cultural references in it – hello, education.
Our expectations as viewers are perhaps too high sometimes. After all, the show is only created by humans like us:P:P
So lets critique and adore and watch and enjoy the whole thing. We might have to take a time jump to see another show we’re so passionate about once this one’s over.
(Love reading your comments, everyone!)
May 14th, 2009 at 9:29 am
@James from LA I think the whole broader scope thing has occurred every season. Season 1 was pretty much a small section of the island from the viewpoint of a single person, hence the eye at the start of the episodes. Season 2 made you aware there were more people on this island then it originally appeared. Season 3 brought into focus the organizations and factions that divided the island, but you got a picture of the island as a whole. Season 4 finally pulled out beyond the island and brought into focus the battle to find and control the island by those in the outside world. Then season 5 has peeled back omnipotent beings that control the destinies of all those on the island. To tell you the truth I think next season does zoom out even further to omnipotent alien lifeforms. The Egyptian storyline definitely points me in that direction given how much mystery there was involved with the technology involved with creating the pyramids. I think the writers are working toward tying in alien lifeforms and technology aspect to an ancient Egyptian storyline all melted together. Wrapping up the story like that would definitely give them the leeway to explain a moving, time traveling island.
May 14th, 2009 at 9:31 am
I was freaking out to realize that Rose and Bernard built Jacob’s cabin!
And then I realized that no one else is mentioning it, which means I am probably wrong.
May 14th, 2009 at 9:38 am
I found the similarity between the deaths of Ed Burke and Nadia to be striking. Makes me think that Jacob was behind Burke’s death as well.
And do we find a similarity between the way in which Ben and Charles can’t kill each other and the way in which Jacob and “Esau” can’t kill each other? The rules?
Kudos to everybody who thought that Locke was still Dead!!
May 14th, 2009 at 9:39 am
And can we now think that Locke’s funny behavior with his shoes was important? Did he require Ben to take him to the other island?
May 14th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Thinking about the whole Locke, Dark Locke, Anti-Jacob, got me started reflecting on any prior connections John had, or may have had, to Jacob and/or Esau. The earliest I can come up with for Locke is when Richard goes to test him as a foster child with the compass, comic book, knife, etc. Richard is looking around the room and notices a strange looking picture of the smoke monster and asks Locke if he drew it. He did draw it and the only reason I can imagine is that Esau had beaten Richard to see Locke and now John was seeing representations of Esau – in this case “smokey”.
Esau must have been planning hundreds of moves ahead in this infinite chess-match.
It happens again after John falls from the window and onto his back. Jacob shows up and says he’s “sorry this happened” and then vulcan-neck grabs him. Locke then goes through a long and arduos rehab where he is visited by Widmore’s right-hand man – Michael Abaddon – who tells him about the walkabout. (Theory – an angry, exhiled, embittered Widmore joined up with “Esau” and created the D.I.)
“Esau” took an interest in Locke just as Jacob was checking up on him and evidently realized he had found a “loophole” to be able to kill Jacob.
Dark Locke manipulates Richard to tell the real Locke, after getting shot by Ethan, to make sure he knows he’ll have to die. His death cleared the way for “Esau” to take his place in John’s skin and sneak right past all of Jacob’s people and get to Jacob.
Amazing how long in advance this game has been set-up! As we’ve seen Jacob popping up in all of the Losties’ lives, it may be we eventually see how “Esau” has done the same. For some time people have been commenting how everyone who was on the plane was no coincidence. Now it seems more evident than ever that Jacob and “Esau” needed to replenish their game pieces.
May 14th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I’m mourning the loss of the real John Locke. I earnestly hoped he would find some acceptance and resolution before his life was over. It broke my heart when his lifeless body rolled out of the crate onto the sand.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Season 5 Finale is awesome!! I love how the writters set up the final season. I am not surprised that they ended the season with the flash/blast as I prepared myself for a long grueling wait.
I can see Sawyer becoming Jack’s nemesis after witnessing Juliet getting sucked in the hole and eventually dying. I also can see Jack playing a big role for pro-Jacobs. Jack will eventually be the leader as the “Incident” could potentially revive Jacob. Sawyer will be a resentful SOB and eventually be part of the anti-Jacobs.
As for Kate, she will be just written off. Her character is poorly written and LOST is better than that.
Can’t wait for the Final Season.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Any Lost cover bands out there…you totally need to cover Alice In Chains’ “Man In A Box” as “Locke In A Box” !
You’re welcome.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:28 am
I loved the scene where Jin stated that Jacob’s Korean is excellent as there were stories at the beginning of the series that the actor’s Korean was poor.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am
One question I have is “what was Ben’s Mother named?” The reason I asked is It would be ironic if it is “Rachael”. In the Old Testament of the Bible, Jacob youngest son’s name was, Benjamin, and his mother’s name was Rachael. Rachael died giving birth to Benjamin, her second son (Joseph was here 1st born).
Jacob also had an Older Twin Brother named Esau. Esau was Isaac’s favorite and Jacob was Rebecca’s (Isaacs wife). Jacob eventlually went on to trick Isaac (with his mothers help into giving Jacob his “blessing ” which gives jacob dew from the heavens, fatness of the earth, and rulership over many nations, which includes his brother Esau. Esau comes back after the blessing is done and ask Issac for another blessing for himself, but Isaac does not and tells him “By your sword you shall live, but your brother you shall serve; yet it shall be that when you are aggrieved, you may cast off his yoke from upon your neck” (Genesis 27:39-40). This causes Esau to Hate his brother and gives him the desire to avenge his birthright and blessing once his father dies.
I really dont believe that the Jacob and “the other man” (Esau) are based soley on the Old Testament account, as some believe that the Old Testament account of Jacob and Esau are loosely based on an Egyptian legend known as The Contention of Horus and Set.
My two cents worth.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Some folks are upset about all of the religious symbolism in Lost, but Lost is not about any one religion, it is about all religions.
Almost every religion that has ever existed has forces that work for good and forces that work for evil. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, Jews, Christians, Muslims etc.
We have Jacob and Esau, Archangel Michael and Satan, Horus and Set, Zeus and the Titans, and many, many others. Perhaps they are all the same, just interpreted and represented by various religions in different ways.
Jacob and the other entity represent those eternal forces that are fighting for the soul of men. Jacob believes in the inherent good in man. He believes man can find redemption. The other entity believes that man is inherently evil and that evil will prevail.
The island is their private battleground where they have brought men for all time to test them.
This is why Lost mixes religious motifs – all religions are basically one religion, just with different interpretations of God and the battle of good versus evil.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Jen/Ryan,
Absolutely love the podcast, and can’t wait to hear the podcast for The Incident.
I really like the idea of looking at the whole story as a chess game between good and evil, and it appears at this point that Jacob represents Good and the Anti-Jacob represents Evil. Along the lines of it being a game between the two, from the episode it appears that Jacob has the ability or at least the interest in selecting participants. For example, he led the Black Rock to the Island, as well as Flight 815 passengers (and even influenced Ajira 316 passengers as we saw with Hurley).
The Anti-Jacob appears to focus on influencing the island inhabitants to see if he can bring them over to the dark side. He is frustrated with Jacob wanting to continually play the game as he tells Jacob that it always ends the same. Thus he wants to kill Jacob to end the games.
I believe that Jacob has obviously known for some time that the Anti-Jacob had found a loophole, and thus he knew what eventually would happen. He goaded Ben into killing him, even stepping closer to him prior to Ben stabbing him with the knife. We also saw the flashback of Jacob asking Ilana for help, although we weren’t given an indication of when and where that request for help happened.
Who exactly was in the cabin is a question that could be played several ways. I tend to think that it was the Anti-Jacob that was trapped or caught in the cabin for some period of time. Ben thought that was the real Jacob, and was obviously jealous of Richard communication with Jacob, although Richard was in fact communicating with the real Jacob, located “in the shadow of the statue.”
I don’t believe the bomb exploded and instead the drilling and release of the energy led to one last time shift. A thought I had is that Sayid didn’t set the bomb to explode on impact, but instead put a delay. Perhaps a 108 minute delay?
I believe we will see the Dark/Dead Locke be the representation of the Anti-Jacob throughout Season 6, as the good side looks for a “candidate” to take the place of Jacob. I’m guessing it will be Jack, setting up continued friction and battles between Jack and Locke, but now on a grander scale. Ben will be interesting to watch, as he clearly succumbed to the Evil/Anti-Jacob influence, but will he redeem himself, or suffer guilt for realizing what he did by killing Jacob?
A final thought (if that’s really possible) is that it would not surprise me at all that we find out Widmore ends up being on the Good side, as the show constantly provides us character twists.
Overall, I thought it was a great finale!
May 14th, 2009 at 11:03 am
John in Texas said:
“I believe that Jacob has obviously known for some time that the Anti-Jacob had found a loophole, and thus he knew what eventually would happen. He goaded Ben into killing him, even stepping closer to him prior to Ben stabbing him with the knife. We also saw the flashback of Jacob asking Ilana for help, although we weren’t given an indication of when and where that request for help happened.”
Excellent thought. I agree. What if the favor that Jacob asked of Ilana was to bring the real Locke’s body to him. If he knew that Ben would kill him, perhaps his soul in the form of a white smoke monster will inhabit the body that is sitting right outside the statue. He needs a new body to inhabit. Heck we could have the sides of good and evil both personified by Locke.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Wow… I get home from work and see another 100 posts…
after reading through them all there’s no way i can comment on everything…
but there are some amazing theories out there.
I’m gonna have to watch parts of it again before posting.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am
All the classic things you come to expect in a season finale. I laughed, I cried, got angry, got happy and was plain confused. I guess I am angry at the first 5 mts. of the show. I’m not happy when any new people turn up, period. But, to have two new people show up that seem to negate the people we spent years trying to figure out is just plain crappy. I will buy into it all out of my pure love of the show but I would not call this a season finale suitable for this AMAZING season of Lost. I know Jacob is not “new” so to say but his role in all of this is new to me and now he is “dead”. And I feel “lost” without having the possibility of Locke being alive and being OUR Locke. I can’t do Lost w/out Locke. I need Locke. Lost needs Locke. Dark Locke = grrrrr. Well, my plan is to rewatch again and again, listen to Ryan & Jen and then.. u got it rewatch again.
p.s. cried like a baby when juliette & sawyer said “goodbye” I am not so much a fan of these two and I am sure not a fan of Sawyer & Kate, but that’s probably because I just want James Ford all to myself….
May 14th, 2009 at 11:35 am
@John Fischer – I LOVE the idea that Locke’s real corpse needed to be brought to the statue for Jacob to take form of when he was killed. That is truly a novel idea. Maybe this re-sets the game of one side vs. the other again, etc.
I wondered how Jacob knew once Ben and DeadLocke walked in that DeadLocke was the loophole guy?
8 months is WAY too long to have to contemplate such things.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:39 am
SOKO: yes, yes, yes!!! We fans demand answers to aspects of the story that are irrelevant, and we get silly answers.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:50 am
I don’t believe the bomb detonated. We know that the Swan will exist, so the site does not get destroyed. Darlton have continually telegraphed to us their model of time travel: Whatever Happened Happened. And their model of life/death: Dead is Dead. Yet so many people (the “Faith” camp) keep on disbelieving the evidence right in front of them (cf, the “Science” camp). The white flash we see at the end is not from a nuclear detonation, but the same sort of time travel white flash we have before seen. Just where the Losties end up is open to speculation, and I will refrain from just that speculation just now (as if there is only a single “now) — lol). btw: a plutonium core can not be detonated by banging on it.
Some nuclear weapons physics: A hydrogen bomb releases the energy of nuclear fusion, that is the pressing together of the nuclear cores of atoms. That’s why it is called a “nuclear” bomb. An atom bomb (like the U.S. exploded over Nagasaki and Hiroshima in WW II) is puny be comparison, for it is a fissile explosion resulting from the fission (splitting) of some heavyweight atoms (uranium). In stark contrast, an “H-bomb” is a Hydrogen bomb because it fuses the simplest nuclear construct – that of the hydrogen atom. Fusion is the energy generation mechanism of the sun and stars. The immense gravity at the core of a massive entity like a star drives the fusion process. To detonate a nuclear (fusion; H) bomb requires similarly immense compressive force. In fact, the way an H-bomb works is to first explode an atom bomb, and directs its energy inward to cause the fusion to occur. A hydrogen bombs outer body is a containment vessel that redirects the outward energy inward. Pretty darn amazing, huh? Anyway, without such mechanisms in place, Juliet can not detonate a plutonium core.
I have many other thoughts, quite lengthy, that can be reached here: http://tr.im/lnmE
Namaste.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Woohoo, what a finale! I really enjoyed it overall, despite some clunky moments. The parts I didn’t care for were how Rose, Bernard and Vincent were just kinda conveniently thrown in there to appease all the people who were wondering what happened to them, and also the tiresome love quardrangle-thingy. But I’d say that was like maybe 10% of the eppie; I very much enjoyed the rest of it.
The introduction of the anti-jacob was totally intriguing, and I like how the whole scope of the struggle on the island changed. There was mention on a previous comment of how this whole story is like a camera that keeps panning further and further back to show the bigger picture, and I think that’s a very apt analogy. I am so excited for season 6. I have faith that this will all be resolved in a satisfactory fashion; they know all the pitfalls they have to avoid (the patrick duffy in the shower, twin peaks, yadda yadda yadda) and I think they will avoid them. And let’s not forget they’re working with the handicap of having these truncated seasons. Cut ‘em a little slack–the show is kickass overall, else we’d not be watching and getting all obsessed over it. Thanks so much for this blog and podcast, Ryan and Jen!
May 14th, 2009 at 11:53 am
I don’t remember who said, it up there ^^, but who ever said that Jacob and {nameless evil guy} are Jacob and Esau…. I COMPLETELY agree. I always knew that the name Jacob couldn’t just be a random name. … You know, I’ll just make a list:
-Jacob and Esau. Plain as day. That doesn’t explain WHAT the Island is, though.
-Since the beginning, when we first heard Jacob’s name, I knew it couldn’t just be a name. I knew it was a Biblical reference.
-Everyone seems to think Jacob is evil for manipulating the lives of the Losties. But I don’t think so. I think he knew that they could help him. I still think it was his eye we saw, with the “help me.” He knew they could help him, so he came into their lives at a crucial point to get them to come to the Island.
- When (the real) John Locke fell from the building, I’m pretty sure he was dead. It wasn’t until Jacob touched him that he woke up, and from then on was paralyzed. Since I think Jacob is the Jacob/Israel from the Bible, he probably could have had that power. In the Old Testament, prophets have the power to heal the sick, just as Christ had in the New Testament.
- All the Losties are assuming that they’ll get blasted to 2004 and land at LAX, safe and sound, but Daniel didn’t say that exactly. He just said it will make it so none of this ever happens. He never said where they’d end up.
- If the time blasting works, Juliet and Sayid won’t be dead. I’m crossing my fingers with all I’ve got.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I haven’t read all the comments, and I apologize if I’m re-iterating, but after reading the main blog post, it kinda popped into my head that the writers might be using one of the oldest plots around – Love conquers all.
In a battle of Good vs. Evil, it’s usually the power of love that tips the balance towards good, and surprises evil that humans can harness that emotion into power. The most recent example for me is Harry Potter, and watching Juliet’s sacrifice, and the para-love-agram, I think it will be a driving force in Season 6, including love between mother/father and children.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
@Zhami Wow you are a smart one! And because of that I am going to thoughtfully consider that the bomb was not in fact detonated and there was a time travel that perhaps occurred when Jacob was killed…
May 14th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
If Lost turns out to be two guys playing a video game, I’ll be very disappointed.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
As far as the cabin goes… several people have said that they think Dark Locke was imitating Jacob and feeding Ben info…. but Ben admitted in this episode that he has never seen OR heard from Jacob. I think Jacob has been in the cabin all along – that he is trapped there by the ash… and that this ash is from the fire pit where he died. Dark Locke traps Jacob in the cabin with the circle of ash, ashes that are comprised of Jacob’s “body.”
OR… someone else uses this ash circle to protect Jacob from Dark Locke, because wasn’t it shown before that the ash circle barred entry of the smoke monster (which we now believe is Dark Locke?)
And, where is Claire? I think she must be dead now, and died in that explosion a ways back…. but as someone else asked – can Dark Locke really imitate two people/bodies at one time? (Christian and Claire in the cabin?). Does anyone think Jacob = Christian and Dark Locke = Claire?
The shout out to Rose and Bernard, and Vincent, I guess was necessary (as was that brief scene with Walt), but it was an annoying way to essentially write off the characters (“here they are, stop asking about them”) nonetheless.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Ok after watching parts of the finale again…
I tried really hard to look for meaning in Locke’s character now..
but I really think they did all sorts of horrible things to this poor guy.
He spends his entire youth picked on and made fun of, he spends his adult life in bad jobs, getting conned and manipulated by his dad, and then he get paralyzed and made fun of becuase of his dream to be something better than himself – a poor old cripple.
THEN, he makes it onto the island, has the ability to walk, spends the first season being a mysterious character who believes so deeply in the power of the island he’s willing to watch a young man die to open a hatch, press a button every 108 minutes and then…
he loses his faith, only to be proven wrong.
He embarks on a quest to get it back and just when he believes in himself again and is told he’s the one (by what I assume was AJ) is shot by Ben..
falls into a pit and thinks he’s dead…
all is lost..
BUT WAIT, walt (AJ again) shows up and inspires him to keep going. Locke continues on to become the new leader of the others….but it’s all just been a giant long con by AJ…
and Locke’s character, which started as a mysterious force of faith and belief is reduced to a duped over zealous idiot who got conned just cause he wanted to believe his life’s hardships actually were for some purpose.
THAT IS LAME.
My two favorite characters (Locke and Ben) are now reduced to complete moron who and patsy for some evil smoke monster…
LAME.
May 14th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
@John Fischer – good theory, I like it. But we have to think about what makes John Locke so special that Dark Locke or Jacob would want to possess his body?
What is the loophole that allows/makes him to take Lockes body?…whatever it is, the loophole also meant that Ben, (or maybe any of the former leaders) would have to come back to the island to kill Jacob…I don’t know – just curious
May 14th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Also, is Lapedis going to be a vessel for Jacob? Weren’t Brahm and Illana discussing something like that about Lapedis?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Tried posting this before, and it didn’t seem to go through…
In regards to the cabin… a few people have said that they think it was Dark Locke in the cabin, pretending to be Jacob and giving Ben information – but didn’t Ben admit in this episode that he had never actually seen OR heard anything from Jacob?
I think that maybe the ashes in the circle around the cabin come from the fire pit that Jacob was pushed into, hence, the ashes are from Jacob’s “body. If so, then the question is – did Dark Locke put (or have someone else put) that circle there to keep Jacob trapped inside the cabin (hence, his plea to real Locke – “help me”), OR did one of Jacob’s followers put the ash circle around the cabin to protect Jacob, as I seem to remember that the main purpose of the circle was to prevent the smoke monster from entering? I’m not sure about the last part though – does anyone else remember?
And does anyone have any theories why Ilana would want to burn the cabin down? The way she took the scrap of material that was hanging on the wall…she seemed angry, so I would guess maybe that scrap was placed there by Dark Locke as a taunt of some sort. But I also don’t know why they wouldn’t have known about Jacob living in the statue all along and why they would have gone to the cabin in the first place?
Interesting idea about Jacob needing real Locke’s body close-by so that he could use it after he was killed… but I don’t think he knew for sure he was going to die. He gave Ben a choice – which seems like it’s a choice he’s given to every leader over the course of time – and that he has to let them do what they will (not defend himself), but Ben was the first one to actually kill him? Or do we think the leaders always choose to kill him? I have a hard time seeing that they would have both Dark Locke and Jacob inhabiting (or imitating) Locke’s body – having two of the same people running around would just be unnecessarily confusing. I do agree though, what a sad life for poor real Locke’s if this truly was his end.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
I don’t think Locke is smokey. Locke in 2007 don’t known that Ben seen Alex in the templeish place. If he was smokey he should remember talking to Ben as Alex.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
After reading every comment thus far more than twice I still say this was the greatest episode of LOST.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Last two numbers on the license plate on truck little Katie is leaning on before going into the store is 23. Anyone else see any other numbers? Is there a specific number associated with each Lostie?
May 14th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
When the guys carrying the “Locke-box” came to the now long deserted cabin, was that a portrait of Vincent on the wall??
May 14th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
A classic Good Vs Evil Theory
The scene at the beginning is reminiscent of the book of Job in the Bible where God is having a conversation with Satan.
Jacob says: ”It only ends once, any thing that happens before that is just progress.” Similar to scenes in the book of Revelation. Where God has a plan for mankind, that man will ultimately be judged for their words and actions and he will ultimately destroy evil and Satan.
Interesting that Jacob in the opening scene was dressed in white and other man (Satan) in black.
During the episode Jacob is almost Omnipresent, turning up and aiding people. Like in the scene with Kate where she gets caught in the convenience store and he says “Your not going to steal anymore, are you?” and she says no and then Jacob says, “Be Good Katie”
In the scene with Locke, Jacob touches his dead body after the fall from the window and brings him back to life.
Jacob tells Hurley he has a choice. “ its your choice Hugo, You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.”
And the end scene with Ben, Jacob tells Ben that he has a choice. Pretty much how the Bible describes our interaction with life. We have free will; we can choose to be good or bad.
Omnipotent or all powerful clues:
In Ben’s conversation with Sun. Sun asks, “What is Jacob like? Ben says, he is in charge of this Island.
Omniscient or all knowing clues:
In the opening scene: Man in black asks; “Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?” Jacob says “yes”, in a very calm voice. Man in black, “One of these days sooner or later I am going to find a loophole my friend.” Jacob answers, “Well when you do I will be right here.”
Jacob answers in an all knowing, Omniscient way, stating he knows how badly the man in Black (Satan) wants to kill him and with no fear, states “well I will be right here when you find the loophole.”
Richard does not age because of Jacob. Maybe Richard is one of Jacob’s (or God’s) angels. I think it was stated in an earlier episode that Richard’s role is to help guide, like an angel usually does.
Ok so those are my thoughts. I really don’t see the show following the Bible’s exact version of Good vs. Evil to a T, but you cannot deny that some of these similarities exist.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
@MLE
What was I thinking calling the inclusion of the rainbow a fortunate accident?? There’s no such thing on Lost. I was only recently contending the inclusion of the Rainbow drive-in had symbolic significance. Combine this with young Faraday playing “I’m Alaways Chasing Rainbows” on the piano and you can begin to plot out a theme. My interest derives more from physics and the properties of light via Faraday’ studies (light is only an electromagnetic wave, you know. Is this the white flash at the release of the pocket of eenergy beneath the swan?), but the story of the destruction of the world and the subsequent salvation is certainly more applicable here.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I so hope that Jack’s reset button doesn’t work, partly because I just couldn’t buy Jack’s “man of faith” persona. As bad as parts of the past three years have been, Jack’s grown so much from the man we’ve seen in the flashbacks. Kate loved Aaron – she became a mom and developed.
So many of the people on the island were there to face demons or themselves, and to have all of that wiped out would be the one thing that would make me wonder why I spent the previous years getting involved with these characters. Jack’s insistence on wiping that all out – and Kate and Juliet’s rather mystifying agreement with him – just did not ring true for me.
But will introducing these characters take the focus even farther away from our Losties? That’s the second false note of the finale – this big a reveal Lost to too good a show to have characters as simplistic as Jacob Good, Esau Bad; their struggle is so much more interesting if they’re more complex. But not if they end up gobbling up the screen time.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Goodness gracious… I read through about 200 posts and I still have a long wway to go. I’d love to contribute to the discussion but can’t imagine that many people are still slogging through this!
Just a few thoughts to brain dump.
- I can’t agree with the “this was the best episode ever” advocates. The season 3 finale was the biggest mind-blower that I think we’ve seen. This was a very good episode, very entertaining, but best ever? Really? I know it’s a subjective thing but this probably wasn’t even in the top three of this season.
- The casting of Jacob was inspired. Just ominous and benevolent and bemused enough to work. Interestingly the actor’s name is not on IMDB yet.
- LOVED Jacob’s interactions with the O6, especially with Jack after his surgery… maybe it just needed a little push. There is love and compassion in all of these interactions, but nothing heavy-handed. He is the true God/Jesus figure here and he NAILS it.
- All the foreshadowing of a reanimated John Locke scaring the hell out of people turned out to be spot-on.
- Agree with all the posters above that “Esau” is the dark or Satan character. I also strongly agree that he is the Smoke Monster. Hear me out on this one. In the story of Esau and Jacob (from what I remember from Sunday school and read on Wikipedia), Jacob is convinced to disguise himself as Esau to get their father’s blessing. (Jacob does not want to be deceptive but gets cajoled into it.) Jacob then gets blessed in place of Esau, which angers Esau, but Isaac seems to say, “hey, I kind of think he deserves it anyway.” So Esau wants to kill Jacob. Now, Mr Eko became a “pious” man by assuming the garb or a priest, even though Yemi was truly pious and Eko was undeserving. Maybe that’s why Smokey kills Eko; Eko is too much like Jacob. And Smokey lets Locke live so that he can use him down the line once he learns what he needs. Maybe that’s also why Smokey lets Ben live… he knows Ben will be angry and vengeful enough to lash out at Jacob and be the agent who kills him.
- Along those lines, there must be some parable in religion about the man who gets anrgy, as Ben did, for all he ever hears about his how great God/Jesus is, and in a fit of self-aggrandization asks God/Jesus, “what about me?” (I believe this is best described in the 1982 one hit wonder by Moving Pictures.
) God/Jesus asks “wjat about you,” with bemusement that any human thinks they are better than any other, and then Ben loses it. (Okay, maybe there’s no parable, but I got to work in a cool 80s reference.)
- Weren’t Adam and Eve found in a cave? Why would Rose & Bernard leave their shelter and go to a cave?
- Interesting comment by Darlton in the 8-9 pm hour about how Richard is the only person in both 1977 and 2007 simultaneously. Not sure what it means, though.
- I agree with all the commenters above about the callback to Walt and Locke’s backgammon game. Very cool.
- The “infinite loop” idea rears its ugly head again. Just because every time a group shows up on the island, anarchy rules and people die DOES NOT mean it’s a TIME LOOP. Evolution was a series of mistakes and until you get the right outcome, you begin again from scratch. That doesn’t make it a time loop (e.g. going from 1977 to 2007 and back again). Over hundreds of years, new people show up and F up and die and then they lather, rinse, and repeat.
- I was sad to see Juliet go but I bet she’ll be back. The ending of this episode leaves almost everything as a possibility, and given how each season thus far has begun I’d say the only thing that’s certain is that nothing is certain.
Here’s to the zombie season.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
The statue is definitely Sobek, the Egyptian crocodile god. The statue is it to a tee including the Ankh in its hand. And the key here, I believe, is the bible story of Jacob and Esau, which paralleled the Jacob and man in black characters. I was swayed most of all by the promise of Esau to kill Jacob in the biblical story. The narrative also fits – the two nations, one always bettering the other to the each of the sides (Widmore vs. Ben); the looming apocalypse forshadowed by Hawking, Widmore and others to the Jacob house and the Esau house battle at the end of days, with the Esau house utterly defeated; and the possible parallel of Jacob’s ladder. Interesting stuff and no doubt deepest on TV.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
So, if Jacob is the one who kept Richard from not aging, now that Jacob is “dead” will Richard come back as an old man? or not at all as he would be nothing but dust at that point?
also the people Hurley saw (one on the island the others post-island) were they his imagination/sickness or was it the Anti-Jacob? Was the Anti-Jacob Christian on and off the island? Eko’s Brother? Kate’s Horse? The “Walt” Shannon saw before she died?
I cannot get my brain around the entire finale, but I do think the episode is the game changer as promised. I also think it is probably very possible we will be seeing some of the dead “survivors,” like Charlie, Boone, et al.
So many questions…I think in the end we will be very happy with the finale of this wonderful show.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
some thoughts on Locke…
Locke has always had such a huge following of fans on the internet. I think a lot of people wanted Locke to succeed because they see a little bit of themselves in Locke in that we all want to believe that we have a greater purpose and that one day we will be rewarded for all our suffering and sacrifice. i think that it’s because of this that so many people are unhappy with the fact that Locke turned out to be just a tool in the end. I’ve always sided with the “man of science” side of the argument and I find it all to be very enjoyable! of course, we still have all of next season for faith to win out.
May 14th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
@Becky from MI,
- My screen didn’t go black, but a different program was broadcast, like someone flipped the wrong switch. I went back to see where it occurred but haven’t been able to find it, but it was with a scene with Jacob.
@Jack in Tokyo,
- I thought the picture in the cabin was of Vincent too.
- Rose and Bernard’s cabin did remind me of Jacob’s cabin, but didn’t Horace build Jacob’s cabin? I don’t think they’re the same.
- Looking forward to another outstanding podcast!
May 14th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
@ Dave in AL,
Good point Dave, if it was Rose & Bernards cabin, that could explain the dog in the portrait that looks like Vincent, maybe Bernard took up painting and wanted something to paint! Otherwise if it was Jacob’s cabin, then I guess our Vincent is a very important pooch indeed
May 14th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
If it was something about the Oceanic 815 survivors arriving that was different, perhaps it is that they seem to be the first people who have come to the island and not seemed as though they wish to possess it or use it for their own ends. The ‘progress’ that Jacob talks about might be that the Oceanic 815 survivors have actually tried to use the island to confront the things about their lives that necessitated (perhaps in Jacob’s eyes) coming to the island in the first place- to use the island’s healing energies, and challenges, to better themselves.
May 14th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Pausing reading the comments to post.
For everyone going all Jacob/Esau, it might also be worth pointing out that in the Bible Benjamin was Jacob’s youngest son, his favourite after Joseph, and his name means ‘Son of my Right Arm’, Benjamin’s mother also died in childbirth. Just saying ;p (ok, so sue me, having the name Rebecca and going to Jewish schools all my life gave me a certain knowledge of these things).
Also…with regards to anagrams, was it just me that found the chocolate bars next to the Apollo bar had weird names? I’m guessing they might be anagram-tastic, but I don’t have the energy to go look for myself right now.
Back to reading comments…
May 14th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
but to add, I like the Sobek and Egyptian connections a bit more than an old testament view
May 14th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
I feel that this episode should have been titled “Jacob, we hardly new ye”.
Are we going to see nothing more of Jacob other than in flashbacks?
There were not a lot of surprises in this episode.
Jack and Sayid are not doing well in a gunfight (like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid) and a VW van comes speeding into the picture. Was it a surprise that Hurley was driving?
Jacob is sitting on a bench and someone falls from an upper story window to the ground behind him. It would have been a shock if it wasn’t Locke.
Who didn’t know that Dr. Pierre Chang would lose and arm?
I suppose that Locke being dead was supposed to be a shock. But how many times were we told that “dead is dead”? Ben told us. (I know, he lies a lot.) Carlton Cruse and Damon Lindelof told us. They even named an episode Dead is Dead. I’ve questioned the appearance of Locke alive on the island since Ajira 316. And then the way the camera pans over the opened crate from 316’s cargo hold to reveal it’s contents could hardly have left any surprise.
There is one reason that I’m glad that Locke’s death was confirmed. Many people were concerned about the origin and final disposition of the compass. To me the compass was trivial. More important, was the origin of the idea that Locke must die to get all the others to return to the island. It would appear that Richard Alpert told this to Locke who told Richard who told… Now it’s clear that Jacob’s enemy, impersonating Locke, told Richard to tell this to Locke, and there it ends.
What did we learn about the four-toed statue? Nothing other than it was still standing in the days of the Block Rock. And, maybe, that Ben knows something about when it was destroyed.
Then there were some noticeable script errors.
First, Richard, Eloise, Jack, and Sayid entered the tunnels last week and lit their way with torches. This week they were using lanterns.
Also, Daniel Faraday stated that his calculations demonstrated that the way to neutralize the unstable energy that would be released was to detonate the H-bomb. However, Jack and Sayid never attempted to detonate the H-bomb. Instead, they removed the detonator, which is a less powerful A-bomb, and detonated that at the Swan station.
Before Sayid removed the detonator from the bomb, he stated that they had only about two hours to get it to the Swan station. After this, we see Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate perform their jail break, paddle ashore, chat with Rose and Bernard and then set off for the Swan station five miles away. Five miles, on foot, through the jungle, in less than two hours. Who writes this stuff? The same people who get Jack Bauer across Los Angeles, in heavy traffic?
But the most glaring error was when the van with Hurley, Jack, Sayid, Jin and Miles is stopped by Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate. Sayid was critically shot and Jack was fighting to save his life. Sawyer says he wants five minutes to talk to Jack and Jack agrees. ??? Jack should have said in five minutes Sayid would be dead and he didn’t have the time to talk with Sawyer.
We learned a few things: what was in the crate Ilana’s people were carrying, that “dead is dead” really does apply to Locke, how Pierre Chang lost his arm, what happened to Rose and Bernard, and that Jacob has visited many of our Losties off the island.
But more questions were introduced.
What is Jacob’s history?
Who is his enemy and why does he want to kill Jacob?
What is the loophole?
For that matter, what is the loophole in?
What is the significance of the ash trail at Jacob’s cabin.
Why did Ilana burn Jacob’s cabin?
What is her relationship to Jacob?
What is Frank Lapidus a candidate for
All in all, I feel more questions were raised than were answered.
But the centric part of the episode was Jacob. And his encounters off-island with eight of out 815 survivors were interesting. (Eight is also the number of times that Juliet had to strike the bomb before it detonated. But I digress.)
Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Locke, Sun, and Jin he encountered before the crash of flight 815. The encounters with Hugo and Sayid were after the rescue of the Oceanic Six.
He asked Kate to promise not to steal any more. She promised, but she certainly didn’t keep that promise.
Sawyer, after the encounter, was asked by his uncle to promise not to finish the letter. He promised, but didn’t keep that promise.
Jacob was present when Jin and Sun made their wedding vows, which weren’t kept.
But after this, I can’t extend the pattern.
Jack was approached after performing surgery. But this wasn’t the surgery on Sarah when he had promised he would fix her.
Nor were there any promises made surrounding Jacob’s visits to Lock, Sayid, or Hurley.
After Jacob’s encounters with Kate and Sawyer, the promises stood out like a sore thumb. I am quite surprised that the pattern wasn’t continued, at least for Jack and Locke who were encountered pre-815.
Sawyer, again, finds himself out at sea trying to make it back to the island.
I suspect that we have now seen the last of Rose and Bernard. After all the clamor made by fans about wanting to see Nikki and Paulo, they were produced and dispensed with. I suspect the same is true for Rose and Bernard except that they’ll be left to a peaceful retirement.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
I also wonder about Eloise’s role in everything. She said it was necessary to return to the island with Locke’s body and this appears to be what enabled Jacob’s enemy to assume Locke’s likeness and create the loophole. Did Eloise have a knowing part in this?
May 14th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Whoops. I stand corrected. Isaac’s wife is Rebbecca, not Rachael.
May 14th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
I have a theory what the explosion did. The energy in the bomb did nothing what Faraday calculated. Instead the energy was absorbed by the “dark forces” in the island making them stronger and making the smoke monster. So in season 6 all will still be stuck in 1977 and they have to help Jacob fighting against the dark forces and find a way to return to the future.
May 14th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
I couldn’t believe Ryan would write something like: When Juliet said “Live Together, Die Alone”, I wanted to punch her in the face, until I realized he was referring to Roses’ line from “Through the Looking Glass”.
This time around, when told that Jack is going to detonate a hydrogen bomb she says,”It’s always something with you people”. You gotta love her.
Speaking of punching Juliet in the face, It was wonderful to see Phil meet his end. Flying steel rebar, even better than flaming arrows.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
I thought Juliet’s departure could’ve been handled alot better.. I think after seeing her put everyone on the lifeboat back at the end of Season 4, alot of people knew then that she would never leave the Island, and when we saw her on the sub last week, somehow she was never going to get away. Her character was all about putting everyone else first, sometimes at great cost to herself and I thought the writers could could’ve packed a bigger emotional punch when she made her final sacrifice. I noticed that some feel that she might not be gone, but with Elizabeth Mitchell moving onto “V’ in the next season, I dont think we can expect to see her back.
May 14th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on this episode. I guess that means I didn’t think it was that good cause normally I find episodes good from the second they start to the finish.
The thing I keep coming back to is Juilet’s fall into the shaft. It was so close to being a jump the shark moment you could touch the shark. She fell, what 100 feet plus, along with tonnes of metal and survives. Then she hits the innards of a hydrogen bomb (which was designed to explode on impact and has also fallen 100+ feet) with a small rock and it goes off ? Oh please.
It’s not the killing of Juliet I mind (thou I do — kill off the only real relationship LOST has ever had) it’s that she survived the fall compounded with the bomb thing. Just have the bomb be dropped and her dragged into the shaft then the bomb go off …. if you want to make it more poiniant have her pulled in first then Jack drop the bomb after.
Other than that liked the whole Jacob thing … but why kill him off staright away ?
It’s going to be a long wait.
May 15th, 2009 at 12:33 am
The statue – It is apparently Taweret.
From the ABC website and the recap of The Incident Part 1:
“The camera pulls back over the ocean, and we see they were sitting on the base of a giant stone foot. And next to the foot is another foot — and both feet have four toes. And as the camera pulls back, we see what we’ve been waiting to see since we first glimpsed that four-toed foot over three years ago… the towering, majestic statue of the Egyptian goddess Taweret. And we clearly know we’re a long time ago, so let’s get the finale of season five started –”
May 15th, 2009 at 1:14 am
Why do they always have to introduce secondary not-really-that-likeable characters, wait till they grow on us and then kill them off? Juliet’s death scene was downright cruel. I really won’t be able to take it if Sawyer is with Kate at any point in the next season.
Actually, now I hope the explosion did change everything and the plane lands safely in LA, etc. Otherwise it’s gonna be too predictable: the losties go back to 2007, reunite with Sun, fake Locke and co, take part in the big battle for the destiny of the island, change sides a couple of times… Meh.
Also, it was funny when Jin said that Jacob’s Korean was excellent. I don’t know Korean, but I speak Russian and in the hospital scene Jacob’s Russian was horrible.
May 15th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Ya wait a minute in this giant list of responses someone (sorry forgot who at this point) posted that Elle and a few others off the island with Ben were pretty adamant about making sure Locke got back to the island…
were they AJ? are they working for him?
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY…
does this mean Kates vision about not taking Aaron back may actually have been the evil character tricking her…
and maybe Aaron NEEDS TO GO BACK?
May 15th, 2009 at 1:31 am
Also: Why do we stick to the idea that if the “reset” thing does work, the losties will not remember the island and everything that happened to them? After all, Marty McFly didn’t forget.
May 15th, 2009 at 4:10 am
Oh. My. God. AND Holy Frickin’ Crap
Sorry I’m coming in late on this, but I was out of town Wednesday night and just watched it last night. My mind is blown. Lost was in my dreams. I could not get it out of my mind all night long. More and more scenes from earlier in the show kept occurring to me, seen in a totally different light.
I also had a dream that if I went back in time I could stop my hot flashes. I woke up laughing from that one.
May 15th, 2009 at 4:11 am
Pierre Chang did not lose his arm!
Miles removed the hand from the beam before it got crushed!
So: Time HAS changed!
And Richard has not seen the losties being killed yet.
May 15th, 2009 at 4:30 am
Supporting my claim:
The Incident is the “beam” breaking through the magnetic thing and colapsing everything around it until the Swan is build to prevent that from happening releasing a small part every 108minutes.
Pierre Chang should have lost his arm in the process but is “future” son came back and removed his hand from the beam before it colapsed.
The “safety key” was a bomb near the magnetic core exploding but was deemed too dangerous to try by Razinski and Dharma and thus only use in case of necessity… but it worked.
Now Juliet did that, but in 1977 so the hatch will not have to be build. So flight 815 will land to LAX…
We know that time can be changed: Desmond did not know that he had to meet Daniel’s mother before he was told so by a time moving Daniel.
So everything will change for everyone except for Desmond who will know that everything has changed!
But we all know this won’t be what happen… and I have 1 good reason for that: Hurley’s guitar.
May 15th, 2009 at 5:12 am
«Ille qui nos omnes servabit»
Indeed it may mean
The one who has saved us all (in past continuous)
but servo has other meanings like observe or take care for or look after
The use of the direct complement declension (omnes) makes me leaning towards both saving but also towards
The one who has been observing us all (in past perfect)
Now if Jacob had all these powers
why would he let mere Ben pounce him ?
May 15th, 2009 at 5:15 am
3 things:
- like a few others have said: this better not be the end of Locke. that would be hugely dissapointing.
- my only real prob with the ep is the non-reaction of ilana and her group. if they had the real locke in their box how could they possibly not react/take action when they saw other “locke” sitting on the beach. fairly ridiculous.
- now even more curious bout hurley’s guitar case
May 15th, 2009 at 5:27 am
p.s. incredible episode…most fun ive had watching television!
May 15th, 2009 at 5:28 am
Quick question for those who liked this episode, have you been watching the show from the beginning?
I’m in it for the long run no matter what happens but this episode really rubbed me the wrong way. The way info is being spoon fed to us takes away from the show. So many of the core aspects of the show are being lost, no pun intended. No Aaron, no numbers, a entire season without Claire, nothing surprising (I’m sorry but Locke being in that metal box was ultra obvious)
I watch LOST for the mystery and sometimes less is more. I hope the writers realize the show is getting silly. For me the end of Season 3 was one of the most brilliant moments in TV because of the way the scene was handled.
I digress, I just hope season 6 feels more like the LOST I have grown to love.
May 15th, 2009 at 5:29 am
Just a bit of trivia – Years ago I read an interview with Bruce Springsteen in which he mentioned that he was inspired by the writings of Flannery O’Connor.
May 15th, 2009 at 5:32 am
Chang’s arm was crushed, he might still need to amputate it. But it would be a good indication that time has changed if see him with both arms later.
May 15th, 2009 at 5:46 am
I too think you are a little hard on Juliet. she knew how Sawyer felt about Kate, as he had shared those feelings with her. I think her own insecurities from her previous marriage and all her manipulation by Ben, contributed her huge insecurities, and her personal belief that Sawyer could never love her as much as he loved Kate. She says to him, that she knows he would never leaver her, and she loves him for it, and it implies that she is willing to let him go so that he can pursue Kate. And besides, why the heck is Sawyer always looking at Kate…just maybe what Juliet perceives as the truth is the truth…until unfortunately like so many of us, Sawyer didn’t realize what he has until he lost it…
May 15th, 2009 at 6:08 am
FWIW (and I hope this doesn’t get me in trouble: Several weeks ago on Youtube I stumbled across clip (an Easter egg?), now vanished, that featured Locke (military garb, swagger stick, red beret, pencil-thin moustache) and a young Charles Widmore. Widmore had apparently been captured during some sort of Others’ military exercise, and Locke was asking Widmore why he shouldn’t kill him for failing whatever it was Widmore was assigned to do. I assumed the clip would be part of a then-forthcoming season 5 episode, but obviously it wasn’t.
Question: Am I crazy, or did anyone else also stumble across this?
May 15th, 2009 at 6:37 am
@Rich in Cleveland
The thing is- the rainbow is there and then its gone – it may have been there when filming but why wouldnt they take it out? or digitize it in later in the scene when its gone? In any case- I had forgotten about young Faraday playing “I’m Alaways Chasing Rainbows” on the piano…and of course the flashes of light- and electromagnetism – and of course Oz…and Noah…
I don’t think I will call in and sing to Ryan and Jen again though!
“Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high,
There’s a land that I heard of
Once in a lullaby.
Somewhere over the rainbow
Skies are blue,
And the dreams that you dare to dream
Really do come true…..”
May 15th, 2009 at 6:45 am
I apologize if this has been mentioned before…but I think maybe Hurley’s guitar case is for Charlie at some point.
Wild season finale. I love the fade to white with black LOST lettering, instead of vice versa as normal.
I think the final season is going to be great.
I didn’t feel as though this season really built up this huge climax for a finale…but really liked the finale anyway. (Heck, I’ve liked all of them this season.) Hard to believe we’ve come through six seasons of LOST already. I remember back during season one and just being mind-boggled. Now, here I am and still being blown away by the creativity and possibilities.
It’s gonna be a long wait until next season…but then I won’t want it to end. Maybe if I detonate my hydrogen bomb at the Swan . . .
May 15th, 2009 at 6:53 am
ADAM/EVE
About Rose and Bernard being Adam and Eve, do bodies really decompose into skeletons in just 30 years? I tried to find answers online, but couldn’t find anything about the exact time it would take human bodies to decompose in a cool, dry place like that cave. And, if our losties did flash into the future/past, I suspect R&B flashed with them.
JACOB/ESAU
I don’t buy the whole Jacob/Esau thing, the show is full of references that it interprets in a different way. So we will not have two characters out of the Bible, more likely we have references out of different religions (as one commentator before me already stated). The theme of Devil/God, Dark/Light and Evil/Good, dualities, in short, are the central theme of all belief systems, esoteric principles, spiritual ideologies, philosophy, theory of ethics and even science (opposites in electromagnetism etc).
SCIENCE/FAITH
And also the whole controversy between Man of Science and Man of Faith is not as poignant as many believe.
Jack ( – Man of Science) has always had faith to an extent. Faith that if only he does his best things will work out, he can be the hero to save the day. Also, belief in science is in a way also just a belief system – the belief that tangible things are all that exist and that things are made tangible by measuring or empirically investigating them.
Locke ( – Man of Faith) has always been a man of science, too. Early in the first season he had various scenes in which he proved his deep knowledge in biology (remember moths and boars). His intuitive insight into his fellow losties (Charlie and Jack) left an impression that he’s got a PhD in psychology.
CHARACTER DEATHS
I will be very pissed to find out that Juliet’s really dead. More pissed than about Locke (in the end of season 4) or Sayid (neeh he’s become boring anyway) or Charlie (his story had been told) or Kate (I’m one of the few Kate-fans) or Jacob (didn’t know him, don’t care. Besides, if the first 5 min of the finale matter at all, Jacob’s not… ya know… D.E.A.D.)
LASTLY
In the end of every season I’m forced to re-think and even re-watch the show because each finale just puts the previous episodes in a totally different perspective.
P.S. I’m a champ AND have too much free time ’cause I’ve read each and every post here:P
May 15th, 2009 at 7:03 am
WHY DID POOR JULIET HAD TO DIE?? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY???
i saw it coming, but she didn’t deserve it. whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
May 15th, 2009 at 7:06 am
Seems like most of you all assume Juliet is dead. Why is this any different from Jin last year or Desmond/Locke/Ecko In Season 2?
I’m confident Juliet will be back and not as a ghost or flashback. There is this variable called the Audience and they demand her safe return.
Question – Why didn’t Jin fight Jack about his plan? His baby would never be born. Something totally overlooked.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:48 am
First: Sincere thanks to the mods for allowing my last post to go up. This has been troubling me deeply for weeks now. I saw the clip in question on Youtube in late February, early March. I’m very respectful of many viewers’ desire to remain spoiler-free and thus held my tongue until now.
Scene: Tent in Others camp. Young Widmore, hands tied behind back (?), brought in by two Others holding him by the upper arms. Locke, in full Colonel Kurtz get-up and, again, with pencil-thin moustache (think: Guy Williams during his Zorro days), begin questioning Widmore. My recollection is, the Others under Locke’s command were performing some sort of military defensive training exercises and young Widmore allowed himself to be taken captive. Obviously, I can’t recite the dialogue chapter and verse but the clip ends with mustachioed Locke asking Widmore why he shouldn’t kill him for failing to perform his assigned mission.
My assumption at the time I saw the clip was that in some coming Season 5 episode a flash would occur, Locke would end up with the Others for some extended period before the US Army arrived with Jughead, took command, and was organizing the Others for a defense against the Army.
Obviously, this didn’t occur in Season 5.
So, what am I to make of this?
You tell me: Was it an S5 outtake that made its way onto Youtube? Did they already begin filming scenes from season 6 during season 5, and is this a preview?
The fact that this didn’t make it into season 5 has me utterly perplexed. What In God’s name did I see, and why was it out there in the wild?
I would truly, truly appreciate it if someone would confirm that they, too, saw this clip.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Jacob is Horus. Esau is Set. Statue is Sobek.
Set was the evil guy. He tore up Osiris and sent him afloat. Sobek, the god of earth wind, water, and fire rescued Osiris, allowing him to conceive Horus, the good guy, who was raised on an island. Horus became buddies with Sobek, hence him living in his statue. Set then battled Horus for 80 years, tearing out his eye. Maybe that has to do with the eye in the Arrow. Set vs Horus was the classic Satan vs Jesus in Egypt. I can’t explain Annubis/monster being there though…
May 15th, 2009 at 8:31 am
atoms,
do you have a link for this clip? Never seen, never heard, but I’m intrigued…
May 15th, 2009 at 8:49 am
No, unfortunately I don’t. I’ve tried numerous times to rediscover it without luck. Best I can recall I was simply searching for “Lost ABC” on Youtube, followed one link after another and it fell into my lap.
Knowing what we all know now, the mustachioed, sinister Locke I saw certainly seems to be “dark Locke.”
I’m just hoping someone, somewhere out there can help assure me I haven’t gone off the deep end.
Locke’s wearing a red beret, has a villianous thin moustache, and is asking the young Widmore why he shouldn’t kill him. Maybe you can find it.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Thought re: mystery clip: Dark Locke isn”t drilling the Others against arrival of US Army, rather, he’s drilling them against arrival of whomever it is Jacob warned of before dying in season 5 finale.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:33 am
In the clip, Locke comes off like a bizarre combination of Telly Savalas in “Beau Geste” and Snidely Whiplash from the Dudley DooRight cartoons.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am
@Jesse Again
The first Greek quote (shown in the beginning) is spoken by Odysseus to Nausicaa when she discovers him and offers to help him.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am
There are three hints showing that Christian Shephard is real: the tennis shoes, the fact that Jack opened his coffin and he was missing, unlike Locke who was indeed in the coffin, and the fact that he tried to get the O6 back, which was also what Jacob wanted (as his visit to Hurley showed). Christian never interacted with the fake Locke post-316; he only interacted with the real Locke and he was indeed speaking on Jacob’s behalf.
Christian’s shoes that Ray gave to Jack will be the clue that Jack will need to recognize the “real” dead Locke from the fake one walking on the Island.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Though I enjoyed the twist. I will feel sad if Dark Locke is all we see next season. I wanted our good John Locke to triumph in the end. To be one with the Island and win.
I was also disappointed by the choice to kill Juliet. She’s one of the best actors on the show. Even when she has cheesy lines, and forced scenes… she makes them genuine.
I thought it was a classy choice for her to break up with Sawyer before her “I love you death”. It broke the cliche and made it more genuine and heart rending.
Due to the blast of season finally I returned from 2011 to give you the spoilers of what happend on Lost in it’s sixth season.
Predictions for next season:
Miles was right. So was everyone else who saw it telegraphed. The losties caused the incident. What happened happened.
But Faraday was also right. It did change things.
In the 6th season there is duel timelines of both sets of Losties. The first set is simply blasted back to 2007 on the island. The other set land in LAX and are living their lives. The writers then, entertwine the stories, as they love to do. Telling in the same episode how the characters are doing on the island and off the island.
Dead: Faraday, Juliet stay dead and Sayid dies by episode 3. (He’s tough he takes a long time to bleed out)
Most characters that have died come back for guest appearances. This includes Libby and Boone but not Mr. Ecco.
Rose and Bernard become central characters. Phil lives, and is their antagonist.
In the future, where I’m from, the fans are so angry at the writers for such bad choices all around that, by the 9th episode of Lost final season the fans have stopped watching lost in mass protest. They then start to follow My Name is Earl. Which by 2010 has a intriguing and complicated plot line much like that of Lost before the final season.
the future is grim guys but the economy fully recovers due to the massive increase in productivity of all office workers. In the future office workers are no longer addicted the lost podcasts or the message boards.
That is until the Lost spinoff show:
A sitcom similar to the Odd Couple called “Down the Hatch”. It Stars Radzinsky and Inman and the ghost of Anna Lucia. Vincent makes Guest appearances.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:09 am
@ atoms
I really hope you’re not joking but I had quite a good laugh picturing the scene. Locke and a red beret hahahahaaa:D
But seriously, no, never heard:/
@ Stubble
But Christian told Sun & Lapidus to wait for Locke (de Dark One). Then again, I suspect 2007 Christian was co-existing with Dark Locke so he couldn’t have been possessed by AJ. AJ can’t possess two bodies at the same time, can he?
May 15th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Funny predictions there Jonathan, Bushwick, Brooklyn – - would love to see “Down the Hatch”.
I have to say the first time I watched the episode Wed. I was not in love with it…But…I watched it a 2nd time and it really was a lot better than I had thought. I think you should watch a 2nd time before the Podcast Ryan & Jen…but I can agree w/ some of your post.
I have read every post here and I AM SHOCKED we have not touched on a few things. ( I mean there are about 334 posts so far )
1st – Didn’t anyone catch the “Jaws” ending? “Die you Son-of-a-bitch” then _______ BLAMMO the white light!!!! Even if you expected the Jughead ending it or were upset about the fact Juliet lived through the fall you had to love that!!!. I remember Sawyer singing “Show me the way to go home” a few seasons ago.
2nd – Nobody mentioned that Jack’s story to Kate about his 1st operation when he ripped the “Dural Sac?” was a partial lie. It seemed like Jack decided to do this on his own, however, he gave no credit to his father being there to calm him down. In fact … he sort of owes his father credit for being calm. I think this is important to know motivational wise. What did Christian say? “Are you sure I don’t think you’re good enough”.
I’m sure soon I’ll post a full-on theory but it would sound much like an incorporation of many above and parts of mine from last week – but not R.A. being Smokey as I was thinking then – - thanks for mention on the Podcast by the way – - I am still convinced there may be more than 1 smoke monster…I mean if Smokey # 1 is in fact “Jacob’s enemy” and can manifest himself into dead bodies then it’s only fair that Jacob could do something similar.
PS – - My suggestion name for “Anti-Locke” / AJ / “Jacob’s Enemy”, “Dead-Locke” etc : :
A – “Not-Locke”
B – “Flocke” – - an homage to the now useless “Fenry” for Fake Herny / Ben and in a way he is Fake-Locke.
I’m sure there’s a Poll somewhere.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:21 am
@ Jonathan from Brooklyn
LOL:D
But actually, giving us two alternate realities sound pretty good. Now’s the time to email to Damon & Carlton… or post it on Youtube and make a million bucks. (<- Heroes reference back when the show was watchable)
Hey it just occurred to me. At least they’ll never ever f*** Lost up like Tim Kring did with Heroes.
May 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
The Guardians Theory.
Jacob and his antagonist have been on earth for ages, beyond any original memory, impervious to the effects of time, yet mortal in that they are able to be killed. They were placed here to conduct the grand social experiment of life with humans as primary subjects. Hence, the dark man’s comment about Jacob still trying to disprove his prevailing thesis that human beings are inherently corrupt and represent a failed avenue of creation. As long as the balance between dark and light was maintained, the experiment could continue in this snow globe of a laboratory. But although the dark player got the upper hand on Jacob via the loophole, there’s some consequnce he couldn’t see: “They’re coming.” Is this some destructive host come to call a halt to the experiment? It’s a more interesting explanation to me than just a referral to the return of the 815er’s. After all, if Anti-Jacob orchestared all these elaborate chess moves involving all of Jacob’s chosen over many shifting planes of time, wouldn’t he be able to see the 815er’s coming back after The Incident? I was really hoping we would see something else in the crate, something monstrous, to show us more powerfully “what we’re up against.” Alas.
May 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
@ Mike St Louis and @Big Jim:
I was wondering about the Red Herring that Jacob caught and ate in the opening scene as well- I was thinking a lot (yes too much…) that the meal that Jacobs cooks his father is a “Red Stew” and then I started thinking about Charolotte’s red Hair and how well she spoke Korean and how well Jacob spoke and got completely off track…but the Red Herring seems to be important- I think – as you all might agree that Red Herrings appear in this show a lot…but that was a significant place to put it…so what does that mean?
From Wikepedia (which I make fun of as much as I live by):
Red herring (logical fallacy), a deliberate attempt to change a subject or divert an argument
Red herring (narrative), a technique used in literature to mislead the audience
so how are we being mislead? or how will we be? I am wondering if it has to do with assuming who is Good and Evil which is something I have brought up in posts many times- when everyone said Ben was Bad- I wondered “How Bad?” or Locke was good “How good?”
I like the idea of Jacob nudging people along and hoping with their free will they will choose the “right path.” This alone can be construed both ways.
May 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I’m a bit behind in reading but I’m watching the clip show from before the finale and noticed that Damon and Carlton said that Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid ended up in 1977 because they didn’t create 815 perfectly. So I’m going to theorize that it is more likely that Hawking at the very least is working for Jacob. Here’s why: earlier this season, she answered Ben’s question of “what if I can’t get them all to come back” with “then God help us all.” I think it is likely that had Walt, Aaron, Ji Yong and Desmond come back, Jacob’s fate would have been different. I think it will take the involvement of the other four (maybe Penny included) to make it so that Jacob can regain control from Anti-Jacob. Since Eloise said “may *God* help us all,” I also wouldn’t be surprised if killing Jacob somehow propels his spirit off the island and it will literally be Jacob who gets those four back to the island. If his “death” doesn’t propel him, perhaps he will go off the island some other way to get the remaining four.
I know people don’t often give the clip show a lot of credit for doing much of anything but it’s been very interesting to watch in this new perspective.
Not really related: I was also thinking that it’s interesting how so many fans have mentioned that “Locke” has been looking really good sense returning from the dead. Make-up and wardrobe had to have done that on purpose. Nice touch that the Devil (who I still feel Anti-Jacob most likely represents) would be attractive.
May 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
I never cease to be amazed how this show and this blog bring people from al over the world together…
Wow Stubble Great Greek translation
Even better, it truly makes sense
Yann makes sense about the fail safe key and the release button
Regarding Jacob’s meetings with Losties
Of note is the fact that Sayid is met only after coming back
Probably Ilana too
but she was obvously knowing him
Scientific notes about the drilling (by an engineer)
Seems like the DI sunk a well for about one hundred feet
then resorted to drilling with large core size bits for probably a few hundred feet more
So this pocket of energy
although detectable was very deep down the earth
What can be this EM source?
Probably the same source as the FDW… ET ?
Another question
What is the reason for the conflict between Jacob and his «friend» ?
May 15th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Wow! More nearly 350 comments! Woohoo!
May 15th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
@Eva from Estonia
Christian said that Sun needed to go with Fake Locke, because Fake Locke would take her to the Others as he poses as the “Leader”. It does not mean that Christian approves of Fake Locke. Indeed, why would Christian show up and say anything to Sun if he was fake? If he was fake, he would have no interest in helping Sun, since Sun has done nothing to further the plan to kill Jacob.
Clearly, Fake Locke doesn’t care one bit about Sun or being reunited with his people. So, why does Fake Locke allow Sun to tag along, acts nice to her, and promises to help her several times, each time finding something he “has to do first”? He lets Sun tag along, because he wants to maintain his cover, and for no other reason. Dropping Sun would be not in keeping with Locke’s character and would tip Ben that something was amiss.
May 15th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Lots of people talking about Faux Locke being Smokey. I think Smokey is a tool that is used but is not Faux Locke. It seems to take human forms for short periods of time. But we can’t even be positive that these forms are smokey. How can we even be sure that smokey was Yemi or Alex? Could they have been two seperate things? We kept being told Smokey is a security device.
I need to watch the episode again. Lots of great theories here. My friends that don’t go to the boards are totally confused.
@Stubble – good observations. I think your theory re: Sun is correct.
May 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
@Mirepoix
This truly is the world’s show. It’s a beautiful thing.
May 15th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Anybody figure out the tapestry yet? Here is a screencap.
http://spoilertv.iimmgg.com/image/4f0c0f11e09a18231b5e2725d57ac4cf
May 15th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
@Atoms, you could be seeing a clip from an old Fox show called “Harsh Realm” – it was a Chris Carter show which only lasted a few episodes. Terry O’Quinn appeared in both the XFiles TV show and the first movie, so he was part of the Chris Carter Players.
May 15th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Alright, I’ve read everything now and I’m watching the finale. I’m amazed by everyone’s thoughts and theories. I also am fully aware that everyone is going to view the episode differently in terms of liking it or not, or something in between. In general, I do wish people would give the writers more credit. I agree that it’s not the shocking moment that we got at the end of Season 3. Instead of one crazy moment at the end, though, we got an entirely new perspective for almost the entire episode. It doesn’t have the same bang, holy crap, pee your pants punch but I’m not sure we should expect that out of the writers as much as we do. For one thing, it’s a storytelling cheat to not give clues to where the story could be leading and, frankly, the way we analyze this show so much, it would be very hard to give us the same reaction we got with the Season 3 finale without either not giving clues (thus cheating) or people putting those clues together (not likely given the track record of the fan base). I know that’s not the only complaint and I can see how other individual problems can lead to more frustrations with the show but all the mythology coming out in this episode, even if it was or wasn’t exactly how we expected, made it very worthwhile to me at least.
Now, the main reason I’m writing. Some people have been wondering about who had been inhabiting Jacob’s cabin. At first I thought it was pretty simple … either Anti-Jacob or Christian (or both, if they’re one in the same). But seeing the scene again where Ilana and Co come across the cabin again, I’m beginning to agree with those who don’t think Jacob’s cabin ever really was Jacob’s cabin. Ilana and Co looked down right terrified when they realized the ash circle was no longer complete. I don’t think they’d be scared of that if it only meant that Jacob was gone. I think it is possible that the cabin and the ash around it was originally a way to keep Anti-Jacob contained. I think Anti-Jacob was probably there even when Ben came to visit but didn’t show himself to Ben (that is, if Ben ever really visited it other than the time he took Locke). I believe it was Anti-Jacob reacting when Locke turned on the flashlight. I’m not sure how the ash circle was broken … did we ever see anything that could have broken it? I had originally thought that Anti-Locke was using Christian’s form in much the same way he used Locke’s but now I’m not so sure. It seems more likely to me that something else is going on with Christian (and Claire) and that they were the ones Ilana said we using it since Anti-Locke was gone.
May 15th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
wow. Lots of stuff to discuss.
– Jacob appears to be the good guy….except for the scene in which he allows Nadia to get run over by a car. Not so nice. Why didn’t he prevent that, seeing as he’s all-knowing?
– We see flashbacks of Jacob meeting with all the Losties BEFORE the ill-fated plane, except for Hurley and Sayid. Both of those encounters came AFTER they returned from the island. Not sure what to make of that, but it did stick out to me.
– I’m guessing that the real Locke is going to be coming back in season 6, either by divine (i.e. Jacob) intervention or due to the return of the other Losties. No proof of this, but he’s just to integral a part of the story to be gone for good.
– the scene with Ilana in the hospital was interesting. What language was that? Why was she there? How does she know Jacob, and why was she so willing to help him? Why did he need her so bad? Season 6 can’t come soon enough.
– thoughts about Non-Locke… First off, he doesn’t seem to know where Jacob lives, since he needed Richard to direct the way. That’s odd, since we saw him with Jacob at the beginning of the episode next to the statue, where Jacob specifically tells him that when he finds a loophole, “I’ll be right here.” Also, Non-Locke didn’t know Ben had had an encounter with his daughter Alex in Smokie’s lair, at least it appeared that he genuinely had no idea and was curious how the encounter went. Is it possible that Ben’s daughter appeared at the behest of someone, or something, else? On the other hand, could Non-Locke and Smokie be one and the same?
– I’ve seen some posts on the web that believe Jacob is Sobek (also the statue), guardian of RA and head of the gods, while Non-Locke is his nemesis Apep, the god of darkness and who was often seen as a void, black hole or dark snake. Interesting, don’t you think?
May 15th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Next season the answer to the question will really be ‘Who/What is the LIE / liar at the base of the statue?’
May 15th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Loved this episode!! Favorite part was Sawyer kicking Jack’s butt!!!! Jack’s boo-hooing over Kate was completely ridiculous. I never bought the Juliet and Sawyer relationship from the start and thought her jealousy was spot on because I think he WOULD have stayed with Juliet even though in his heart, he wants Kate! And Jules knew that… That aside, it was an awesome episode!! Now for season 6, I am hoping for Jack to be on a “real” mission, (please no Jate!!!) and am looking forward to more Jacob / “not Locke” stuff…
P.S. – am I the only one who thinks Jacob is fine??????
May 15th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
This is all so incredible I read every comment and listened to every one of your podcasts for this season. Let me tell you the reason why. My husband and I have not had cable or broadcast television in over 6 years. We’re not Luddites or snobs–we just hate commercial television and find it not relaxing and mostly a vast wasteland. We rent Netflix and enjoy the shows we like without commercial interruption and packaged in convenient seasonal groupings. About 6 months ago we discovered Lost. We watched each season in its entirety and after we finished Season 4 we were dying to know more. That’s when I happened upon your podcast on iTunes. I listen to you regularly now, as you are my only source of Lost info. I’ve been tempted to get cable just to watch Lost, but haven’t quite gotten there yet. I just want to thank you for your podcast and tell you how much I’ve enjoyed (and needed) it over these past few months as my only Lost fix. I now cannot wait till Dec. 8 (Release date for Season 5 DVD). I’ll be watching Season 3 along with you guys when you start back up over the summer after your hiatus…and, of course, I’ll be listening to you for Season 6.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Yikes! You leave home for four days and what happens? 342 posts!!! Oh well, I’ve got eight months or so…that ought to be just enough time to get through them all.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
@BohoTeacher
Why not watch it online on abc.com or via iTunes rather than wait for the DVDs ?
May 15th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
One big question that I can’t (and probably will never due to the way they handled the writing lattely) understand: The Pearl Orientation Video is from 1980, Pierre Chang has both his arms! And we don’t know why people kept filling forms on what happened to the station so that it could be dumped in the jungle.
Other questions which are not minors (and even the biggest mistories at the beginning of the show… but totally disepeared now):
Is Walt role ever going to be explained?
How can the Black Rock end up in the middle of the jungle while it was swimming ashore?
4 8 15 16 23 42 anyone?
On behalf of the DeGroots and Alvar Hanso?
Quarantine? Vaccine?
The others marching without a noise with teddybear hanged with a sting?
The others taking prisonners and then shown going ok but strangly acting?
The mark put by the others on Juliette??
What happened to Horace exwife who showed student about the volcanic activities?
The “truce” was broken when the alarm sounded during this course? Sawyer took care of it?
I mean… this show has only 5seasons! It likes to keep us in the dark not knowing what is going on… but by pushing mysteries over mysteries it seems that a lot of BIG issues will never be addressed. And when I look at the last 2seasons: bringing more people to the Island and having losties going back in time playing Return To The Future… you know what, I was ok about it until the official podcast of this week: the Comicon video is fake, sorry. We had an idea but couldn’t make it happen. So it clearly means: we are writing this as it goes along, teasing you for 6months about something that was supposed to be big but was just a blopper. If they can’t remain focus over 6months how could they ever be coherent toward what happened 5years ago!
Really looking forward to next season so… knowing the show is good but went a bit “a la X-Files”. The show is good but the mythology is over the place.
@Atom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-zW3ObUnPA
Mustache Locke is probably from an other Terry O’Quinn work… like in this exemple with Chau: JAG
@ Jonathan from Brooklyn
Love the idea! With a future Desmond who could interact with the other losties back to life…
May 16th, 2009 at 12:27 am
In the scene where they are removing the core from Jughead, Richard Alpert expresses his concern to Eloise that when they originally brought Jughead down below it was emitting radiation, saying “you’re pregnant!”. To which Eloise replies “Which is exactly why we have to see this through”.
To me, her comment implies that the pregnancy problems already exist on the island well before the incident. Further evidence of this is that the statue appears to be “Tarawet”, which was the Egyptian deity of protection in childbirth.
Therefore it appears to me that the pregnancy problems have been around on the island for a long, long time, and were not caused by the incident as some have theorized.
I really loved the ending … especially Jacob’s last word’s before he was kicked into the fire by his adversary after being stabbed by Ben … “They’re coming”. That means no death by the explosion, and a 30 year flash-forward is in store for our losties! And that eye at the very end after the Thud … was definitely Kate’s.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:29 am
My nationality further encourages me to examine Jacob’s Homeric quotes and their context:
Odysseus’ last stop before arriving back to his homeland Ithaca, was Scherie island (the Phoenician people used to live there). He swims ashore on the island where, naked and exhausted, he hides in a pile of leaves and falls asleep. Next morning, awakened by the laughter of girls, he sees the young Nausicaa, who has gone to the seashore with her maids to wash clothes. He appeals to her for help.
The quote at Jacob’s place in the beginning of the episode is a quote taken from that exact part, where he tries to appeal to Nausicaa for help: “may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires” (greek:[σοὶ δὲ] θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς,)
Quotes found by Stubble on 1st quarter of this page,source also verified by myself.
-Looking forward to the podcast!
May 16th, 2009 at 12:31 am
@Mark in Omaha
Jacob respects people’s free will. It was Nadia’s choice to look for her sunglasses while crossing an LA street, thus being oblivious to the car that violated the pedestrian green light.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:38 am
@Alex from Greece.
Actually the Phaeacians not the Phoenicians lived in Scherie. I agree with all the rest.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:05 am
@Stubble,
You’re right, Phaecians / Φαίακες is correct. Thanks for pointing it out. Interestingly it’s the name of a municipality in Corfu island, quite popular as a holiday destination. The British love partying there too.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:10 am
Really enjoyed the finale. It had everything; fighting, adventure, gunfights, deception, surprise, torturous deaths, two Lockes, Rose-Bernard & Vincent, good/evil, explosions, brigh flashing light and a whole new game. And, so many more questions…Were all the “ghosts” who appeared to our losties (Charlie, Christian, Claire) just “man #2 in disguise? If so, most of our people have been touched by both the good/evil men.
Next season, I believe – The bright white light was flashing them back to 2007 (“They are coming.”). Unfortunately, our John Locke is DEAD but the actor will remain. Jack, who now has both science and faith, will step into old John Lockes roll on the island. Jacob saved Sayid from getting hit because Sayid had proven his good heart on the island.
Many questions remain – What’s in the guitar case? Did they change the past or just cause it? Will we see Desmond and Penny again? Is this all just a game? Will we find out how Daniel had in his position the completed journal? Will Kate be pregnant with Jack’s baby? Is Claire still alive? Is Frank correct about “good guys”? Is Jacob the “good guy?
May 16th, 2009 at 4:51 am
I think Jacob might be the evil one. Nadia wouldn’t have been hit had he not stopped Sayid, Nadia stopped in the middle of street waiting for Sayid.
Kate got away with shop lifting and that set her on her life of crime.
Jacob encourage Sawyer to finish his letter.
He brought Locke back to life just so he could be used some more as patsy.
Not sure how his giving Jack an Apollo bar changed anything, but maybe he became addicted to them
May 16th, 2009 at 6:35 am
TVSCIFI–interesting idea about Jacob possibly being the evil one.
Was there any mention in the show about Jacob visiting other crash survivors such as Rose and Bernard, Claire, Shannon and Boone, etc.?
May 16th, 2009 at 7:45 am
@ Stubble
I understand the idea of free will in LOST, and I agree with that. However, in this case, I’m not sure it applies. Nadia didn’t “choose” to get hit by a car, no more than Locke “chose” to be pushed out of a 12-story window. In one case, Jacob turns a blind eye, in the other he brings someone back to life with a touch of his hand.
I don’t think Jacob is the bad guy. In fact, he’s obviously a Christ-like figure, but I just didn’t understand this scene. I’m willing to accept it as a mystery of the divine, and Jacob knows best.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:13 am
@tvscifi That is what I have been getting at- I don’t think what he did was necessarily “good”… certainly self serving whether he was true Jacob or antijacob- but why would anti-jacob need to dress like Jacob in the real world? He doesn’t need to disguise himself which makes me think he is the real Jacob…I do think this is where the Red Herring I mentioned might fit…
I like what everyone has been saying about the playing out of two “Gods” using humans as their “pawns” it reminds me of that Pulitzer prize winning play “J.B.” where the two Circus guys play God and Satan and play with a Man named J.B.- its a take off from the story of JOB in the bible. That opening scene where white shirt and dark shirt are interacting and they seem very modern day- yet there is a slave ship rolling in- reminded me of this play set in modern times with a very old story being told.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:16 am
@Yann from France- I love your list of unanswered questions- I think we all have several of these that seem like story plots that may just die with that story plot and never move forward. Good list- I am going to try and think of some other unanswered questions that may never be answered in one final scene…one of my biggest questions is why was Walt soaking wet and talking backwards???
@everyone…yes I could have posted these two together…but if we have a goal of 500 posts by podcast time we better keep posting!!
May 16th, 2009 at 9:11 am
@TV Sci Fi
I think Jacob’s actions are designed to put our characters on the path they need to follow and not spare them the struggle they need to grow. This goes all the way back to Locke’s parable of the moth which Sawyer reiterates this season. Sayid tried to change with his humanitarian mission in Costa Rica, but he again made the choice to obey his nature and attempt to kill young Ben. And as MLE points out with her allusion to Job or Desmond points out in his discussion of the story of Abraham and Isaac, God often puts us through some brutal ordeals without any better explanation than that is what is demanded.
You could see the hate in the Dark Player’s heart right from the start and he followed through with his malicious desire to kill Jacob. Jacob expressed optimism for humanity, AJ only expressed contempt. I’m going to go with the obvious in this instance and define Jacob as “good.”
May 16th, 2009 at 9:19 am
@Yann from France – I agree with you about the writer’s just making this up as they go along.
I went back and watched “walkabout” and in that episode, John Locke’s supposed girlfriend appears to be some kind of “call girl” or “phone sex operator” who tells John if he keeps calling, she’ll have to charge him. In a the subsequent seasons, they portray her as more of a real girlfriend.
Reminds me of the episode about Ben forgetting everything after Richard takes him into the temple. The writers are reactive, not proactive. I’m sure when they made up Jacob, they had no idea what they were going to do next. Makes the show more soap opera-ish and less of a consistent body of work.
Its disappointing to know that the concepts and story lines are not better well thought out. Oh Well, we have already invested our time into the show. I mean, we are all still watching after the Island disappeared, right?…its a good thing there is only one season left.
May 16th, 2009 at 9:32 am
John Harvey: Helen was really Locke’s girlfriend, whom he drove away with his obsession with his father. He subsequently began calling a phone sex line and calling the woman on the other end Helen, presumably because he missed her and wanted to pretend they were still in a relationship. See Lostpedia:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Helen_Norwood
I’d like to say we still don’t know what it is Ben doesn’t remember as a result of his revival at the Temple. After all, when he woke up, he still remembered he didn’t want to go back to his dad. We’ll have to see post “I shot Ben” Sayid and Ben interact again to see if they’re saying he indeed forgot all the circumstances that brought him to the Others.
May 16th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I think it’s pretty safe to say that LOST is a big melting pot of egyptian/greek mythos and Judaic/Christian theology. There have been many compelling arguments that the island is Atlantis; I’ve always believed it was Eden. Could it be both? I mentioned the Sobek/Apep connection before, and I do think that’s what’s going on here, but at the same time, Jacob is filling a messianic role. We first see him fishing and giving a “fishers of men” speech. We last see him sacrificing himself (does anyone really think that he didn’t already know that Ben — our Judas — was on his way to kill him?). And before his death, Richard describes him as, “He who will save us all” — a direct correlation with the biblical Christ-like theme of salvation. In season 6, I have no doubt we’ll see him live again — along with the real Locke — just in time to save everyone.
On the other hand, we have the evil Non-Locke character, who as Apep has the ability to appear as a void or dark snake. In the Judaic/Christian telling of Eden, the devil appears as a beguiling snake. Smokie?
May 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
I think it was Stubble who wrote that Non-Locke’s shoes will be an important reveal to Jack in season 6. I love that idea! Very clever.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:02 am
To all out there: I think most of us realize we are fortunately enjoying one of the more momentous moments in television history, and cognizant of it as it goes on. Many, like me, are broadcast TV idots, as we long ago gave up on the medium, were drawn in by early season DVD’s, watched the ABC.com episodes, and just gave in and got the ol’ TV fired up to watch… TV. (Thank Jacob for DVR’s-both for the rewatching and commercial cutting).
We have something in Lost that merits the discussions, blogs, theories, and (of course) the great Renn, or Jyan, and their podcast. Something so good that human nature in us all makes us long for perfection, something that will ultimately transcend even our hopes for the show. After all, wasn’t the early trademark of the show to give us reasonable expectations, then pull out the rug, consistently? In so doing, give us more than we expected? Production values up there with feature films, actors worth watching, and script/story material that kept us entranced; all have been there for us for five years worth. And consider it even more meritorious given the abysmal state TV in general has stumbled into.
Yes, we are fortunate. Yet quibbles should be part of this discussion. For all the wonderment we enjoy, seems to me many of us are very educated and capable people with professions and responsibilities, and important lives. Thus, the time given to this show is significant on several levels. Don’t we have something(s) better to do? I sure as hell hope not, and challenge the writers with that responsibility.
This season- the whole Kate episode. Putrid, in more ways than I have room to discuss. Now, the introduction of Gods? Darleton, and their writers have shouldered a colossal responsibility- ie to pull this off without stumbling embarrassingly, leaving us embarrassed to boot. I am rooting heartily for them. While I, and all of us, salute what Lost has been, and become, let us recognize the force it has been in our lives and pray we do not look back in 20 years with the anti-pride reserved for those of us who agonized over ‘who shot JR’.
Long live Lost, Locke, Ben, and yes (Knives) Sayid!
Aloha
May 16th, 2009 at 10:10 am
One addition- can you think of something more convincingly evil to us Lost-lovers than to steal John Locke? I, for one, will be rooting for this Black One to get his really bad.
Jacob has to be good, if this is in fact a dichotomous relationship.
Just me.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
@Stubble – love the point about the shoes – I totally forgot about that.
@Moriah – About Miss Hawking’s fear of what would happen should some of the O6 not make it back to the island: I think she had to know that SOME of them would be going back to 1977, because we now know that she met Jack, Kate, and Sayid back then. Perhaps she did not know the fate of the ones that did not already appear in her past, or maybe she assumed they were all there.
@TVSciFi – I was thinking along the same lines of Jacob perhaps being evil. Or at least, not necessarily GOOD. I don’t know if either is evil, but we definitely don’t know if either are good yet. Sure, there are strong suggestions that Jacob is THE Jacob, but that Jacob is not necessarily pious. Maybe Jacob’s nemisis has a good reason to want to kill Jacob. I mean, how many of us were kind of hoping the Smoke Monster would thrash Ben’s body around the cavern? How many wanted Locke’s Dad killed? With the little we know about them it is hardly enough to determine if the nemesis is evil just because he wanted to kill Jacob, who happened to say he would be waiting for him when he found the loophole.
Perhaps they have the ability to manipulate space and time, via the island and it’s properties, and they are trying to gauge the goodness of mankind by bringing them to the island and seeing what happens between the people, but why would they need to do that on the island when they can apparently leave the island and see for themselves in the rest of the world how mankind is progressing?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
@docJkm “or all the wonderment we enjoy, seems to me many of us are very educated and capable people with professions and responsibilities, and important lives. Thus, the time given to this show is significant on several levels. Don’t we have something(s) better to do? I sure as hell hope not, and challenge the writers with that responsibility.”
I love this because I often wonder what each person does when they are not watching Lost…is Connie in Alaska a Teacher? Is Rich in Cleveland a Preacher? We know that Knives works at the in and out Burger on Satna Monica Blvd…
Anyway- I agree with you that – we are looking for everything to be a perfect match and make perfect sense- and its just not possible- for one, my Husband asked this AM “Who do you think we will see next season?” and he was trying to make friendly “Lost conversation” and my response was nothing short of snippy…”We will see whoever has it in their contract to fly to HI and make an appearance…” When- in reality- I really hope we see everyone again- perhaps looping back on themselves….but I agree- we may have seen the last of Rose and Bernard…but I do think Charlie will reunite with that guitar case…and I am hoping still- we will see Claire get on that helicopter..like Dorothy and the hot air balloon…
(I really do think we will easily hit 500 posts by Monday…)
May 16th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Hey MLE!!!
I resemble that remark
May 16th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
_________________
I just want to personally thank Ryan and Jen and everyone that writes on this blog very much. Sure we may not have LOST for an other 8 hard months, but we have our community, and I think I speak for everyone when I say that this community will certainly and reluctantly speed up the time. Pun proudly intended.
Heres to hopefully making it to 500 Posts.
xxxwest-sayidxxx
May 16th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I love MLE! She knows everything about the show. For some reason, she figures out everything before me. Her brain is probably so big, it’s not even funny!
Thanks,
George
May 16th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
@Mark in Vienna — great thoughts! I disagree though about Jughead – the core isn’t the fissile atomic bomb, that has to surround the fusion core and compress it. Hence, I say that no bomb exploded.
@Yann From France — 4 8 15 16 23 42 => valenzetti
@Stubble — not really Nadia’s free will to stop in the street, likely caused by realizing that Sayid wasn’t with her. Jacob is an influencer, his words about choice are crafty and twisted, but look at the details, and his interventions lead the Losties he meets toward their “destiny” (destiny being defined with hindsight).
I believe the Loophole is Faraday’s discovery of time travel by… telling himself how to do it by having Desmond visit him… the biggest time loop we’ve seen.
Except there are no other time lops
There apparently are two compasses, unless the major visual distinction between them is a continuity error. And the Lock-tells-Richard-tells-Locke loop is because one of those Locke’s wasn’t John Locke.
Although I don’t believe the white-shirt & black-shirt guys who start the ep are supposed to be taken literally as Jacob and Esau, the analogy is fitting, and so until he gets another name, I’ll call them by those names.
@TVSciFi “If Lost turns out to be two guys playing a video game, I’ll be very disappointed.” clearly two players, if not two sides. A game? – sure, why not. “I’ want to kill you” — common parlance in a game. I’ve been thinking this for quite a while, and wouldn’t be surprised, although I know most fans would HATE that ending. But, can you come up with ANY satisfying ending at this point? Heaven? Purgatory? A dream? The plane land in L.A.? Jack wakes up from a dream? The plane is really in the bottom of the sea, and they’re all dead? Jacob and Esau sitting beside the statue and some futuristic flying saucer descends, and Esau says: “It’s always the same” ? I can’t think of an ending that will close the story AND satisfy the fans. The expectations on the shoulders of Carlton and Damen are staggeringly huge. Now, what I do think is that their creative leeway is further limited by the fact that TPTB (the money behind the show) will demand an ending conducive to either television spinoffs or movie sequels.
Many other thoughts of mine here: http://tr.im/lxlS
May 16th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
@Yann in France,
And what about all the kids from 816 and othersville?
May 16th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
@christy in TX –
Good point about Eloise knowing that some of them must have ended up in 1977. I guess I’ll have to backtrack in terms of what side Eloise is on. It’s hard to tell how she feels about being able to change time. In 1977 after she kills her son, it’s clear that she desperately hopes she can change time. Later (but earlier for us) we see that she tells Desmond that it doesn’t matter what you do … fate has a way of course correcting. Her involvement in trying to get everyone who left the island back to the island seems to me that she still believes in destiny/fate but maybe that she now recognizes the importance of personal choice/free will of those who need to return? Does that make sense? Anyway, I still like the idea of Walt, Aaron, Jin Yong and Desmond having to return in order for Jacob to regain power and for light to triumph of darkness. This would be one time when Malcolm David Kelley being older now than the character Walt could really help out. They’d be able to say (and perhaps show, a little) that darkness controls for a certain amount of time … maybe only 5 or so years to make Malcolm David Kelley match the age of Walt … or a couple more so that Malcolm David Kelley is playing a little older than he actually is. They would then be able to cast young children, about Walt’s age when he first came to the island, to play Aaron and Ji Yong and help Jacob overcome darkness. That clearly assumes a lot and I’m very aware that they may take another direction but that’s an option I think I’d be happy with.
As to the conversation about the writers’ making it up as they go along, I feel like Damon and Carlton did a good job of answering the Comic Con video issue. I’m still annoyed that the video isn’t canon and that it didn’t work out as they hoped but by the nature of a television show and all the different components involved in making it work, I’m not too surprised that some things that are planned in advance don’t always pan out. Damon and Carlton were smart to point out that JK Rowling was able to do whatever she wanted with her world without having to worry about what a network wanted out of one of their biggest money makers. If Lost were a book series and not a TV show, I would not be at all surprised if we liked it much more because they things the creators planned would be more likely to follow through to the end. Even with a book, though, the creative process has to allow for somethings to change but at least you don’t have to adjust to actors wanting to leave or sweeps or possibly being cancelled. I personally trust that while the writers may have had to change how we get there, they are still telling the same story with the same themes and lessons that we’d get regardless of all the variables they’ve had to deal with; that despite having to make changes along the way, they have been able to “course correct” and get us to the same end result that they’ve planned for a long time.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Wow, just listened to Michael Emerson on the Official Lost podcast. If you haven’t listened yet, I’d definitely check it out.
I thought it was first of all pretty interesting to learn that the script at least says that the bomb actually did go off. So the white light may have been a flash for the Losties to time travel but even if that’s the case, the bomb did go off. Still leaves plenty of other options of the implications of the bomb going off but I’m still of the belief that whatever happened, happened. The most interesting thing will be how/where/when the time travelers end up.
I also really liked his comparison of Jacob as another example of bad parenting. I personally hope that we find out that Jacob, while seeming detached as Ben said, had to do that in order to allow “his children” free will. Almost like the opposite detachment we see out of Eloise. She is detached because she knows she is *directing* her son on a path that leads to her killing him. Jacob is detached because he knows that his children (if he really is God) must make their own choices in order to grow and the only way that can happen is to remain detached. It’s funny, I was having a similar conversation with my brother just today … telling him that I liked the casting of Jacob because the actor played the role very detached, which is what I’d imagine any deity who believes in free-will would have to be, while at the same time wanting to comfort the pain humans feel.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Ryan and Jen,
There was an episode of Lost in season three in which Juliet had handcuffed kate (at Ben’s Request) to herself and they were being chased by the smoke monster in the jungle. They both hid in the “bamboo shoot” tree (for lack of better term) and waited for “smokey” to pass. Smokey found them in the tree and look at each of them. When he looked at Kate he glanced at her for a moment and then he looked at Juliet. When he looked at Juliet, the smoke monsters view of her turned to a pure white light, just like the moment after she set the bomb off in the incident. When smokey saw juliet transform into white light he ran away from them in a state of panic. Could it be that Juliet setting off the Nuclear Bomb in the future caused Smokey to fear her in the past, and if so why?
Aloha,
Bob
May 16th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
It appears the anti-Jacob can assume the appearance of bodies which are dead. This could be a reason why the Others want to account for the bodies of their own dead – to prevent the ant-Jacob from appearing to be that person and possibly ascending the position of Leader.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
@DocJKM – well put. Lost is more than just a show, it is a very sublime and involved experience. Just think, without the podcasts/internet/Comic Con/DVR/ etc. – it just becomes a really good show.
I’ve got one thing I have to nitpick on that a lot of people have made comments on (even Jack on the show), that if events can be changed that flight 815 will make it to LA. 815 will never make it to LA because it turned around. Even if the Losties were able to affect the future and the crash is prevented, the plane will still turn around because of mechanical problems. Preventing the crash will not get them to LA, only back to Sydney. If the goal is to arrive at LA, you have to change the one key event that prevented that from happening to begin with, the plane turning around, which was caused by the mechanical problem (the butterfly effect notwithstanding mind you).
The whole focus of Faraday, Jack, et al, was to stop the event that caused the airplane to crash on the island. If they were actually to succeed, the plane continues to Sydney, a far different outcome than arriving in LA as originally planned. Who knows, maybe the plane ends up crashing anyway and everyone dies as a result. How’s that for the universe course correcting?
Although a minor point in the grandiose scheme of the story, I just needed to get that out of my system.
May 16th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
@Mark in Omaha
It wasn’t Nadia’s free will to be hit by the car (she obviously didn’t want to die), but it was her free will to cross the street while looking in her bag for her sunglasses. Actions have consequences, and Jacob didn’t protect Nadia from the consequences of her actions. He did protect Sayid, however, from being the unwilling victim of his wife’s distraction, and he saved Locke from being the unwilling victim of his father’s malice.
Also, I don’t think that Nadia turning around had anything to do with her being hit, as her whole turn took less than 1sec, and the impact was unavoidable at that point.
It’s also fascinating that he respects Sayid’s free will even as he saves him. He doesn’t grab him to stop him from crossing the street. He asks: “could you help me?”, i.e., giving him a choice. Sayid could easily say “I’m not from LA” or “I’m in a hurry” and walk into the street. He only touches Sayid after the car has hit.
May 16th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
@Zhami : Yes and what about the Valenzetti equation? Is it canon? Are the losties doing something to change the equation? Is the atomic bomb allowed exactly that and thus a loophole in the equation and the death of Jacob who despite his “free will talk” is the keeper of the destiny?
But I have to admit of course the numbers will get explained!
@Bonita: If they can’t reproduce on the island, I guess as soon as they have the opportunity to take kids they do that (why not do that of island? who knows) and the train them in the jungle leading them to call stars “Ursa Theodoris” and walking with teddy bear while grown ups… But will they ever adress that?
@Morhia: Harry Potter answered all the questions through the 6 books. I am really starting to fear that the most important questions of the first 2seasons will just be overlooked to answer questions asked during the last 3seasons…
@Dave in AL: Sure the show is really great, well writen and directed, full of references and allow for a lot of imagination and discution. But the X-Files was like that, and I am sure that if the Internet community had been bigger and if the podcast had existed there would have been a lot of them I guess.
My real problem now is: with THAT many questions left unanswered and still new ones coming. How can we find a good theory if we don’t know what datas we should take into account and thus… what the point of a podcast and others if we reflect on bad datas?
So the journey is great but we’d better not try to guess anything because they like to do “game changing” things while not answering the questions asked 3years ago.
@MLE in Colorado: Talking about datas and theories… I am a PhD Student in chemistry.
Yet: Love the show, love the podcast, looking forward for the replies on the blog… Optimism is a state of mind I guess!
May 17th, 2009 at 1:54 am
I posted my initial reaction above. It was not that positive! But it’s been a few days and I’ve been mulling things over a lot. Watched it again too. I dont hate it so bad now
Perhaps Jacob (as a risen-obiwan) may yet resurrect Locke again? that’d be nice. ONe reason i was so unhappy with the show was Locke really being dead.
Here’s a thought I haven’t seen yet:
Jacob, AntiJacob — black and white living in a continual struggle…
Rose, Bernard — black and white living in back to nature, harmonal peace.
Wonder if thats a coincidence or actually meaningful. Maybe we’re not done with Rose and Bernard after all?
May 17th, 2009 at 2:51 am
@Whoever was saying about not enough answers,
A work around for this would be that they have a one hour special with Damon and Carlton simply answering all the unanswered questions. However I suspect a large number of questions, including some major ones, will remain unanswered. This will leave the door open for many hours of speculation as well as fan-fiction.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:27 am
@ Ryan – Thanks for the clarification on Helen…so I can have some confidence in watching the older episodes and feeling good about things matching up.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:40 am
I have just re-watched the finale , and i still cant like it , it seems like it was badly put together my main gripes are
- Jacobs convenient visits to all of the younger 815ers reeked of filler desperation , all so next season everyone can say in synchronous OMG ! He was Jacob all along
- the locke fall from the window looked very bad and rivalled the departure of the galaga
- Annoyed that juliet got pushed down a well like little Timmy when her usefulness was over
I am actually thinking will i bother giving lost 720 minutes of my life when it airs again next year
anyway i hope i really get over this by next year
Love the podcast
Michael
May 17th, 2009 at 4:11 am
@Yann From France –
I disagree that JK Rowling answered *every* question by the end of the 7th book but even if she had, it was kinda my point that the book format makes it much easier to answer the questions. Due to the nature of the TV medium, there are a lot more outside influences that impact what the writers’ of the show are able to do. For example, if they had intended for Rousseau’s character to make it into season 6 and even to survive the entire series then they had to change things up once the actress playing Rousseau (Mira Furlan) decided she wanted to leave the show. (that was just an “for instance” … I’ve never heard them say they had other plans for Rousseau.)
I do see what you’re saying in terms of theorizing but I think that’d be true no matter what. People in the Harry Potter fandom thought it was going to be very important to know more about what happened to Harry the night his parents were killed and had all kinds of theories about the portraits conveying messages to Dumbledore that evening but, in the end, we didn’t find out that much more in the final book so those theories turned out for naught … in a sense. They are still important, in my opinion. One reason that some writers refuse to answer *all* the questions is so that readers can decide for themselves what may or may not have happened with those unanswered questions. I think Damon and Carlton will probably be able to answer more once Lost is over but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some things they’re simply going to leave to the audience to decide. As Mark B said, it’ll allow us to speculate and discuss our thoughts on the possible answers to unanswered questions.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:27 am
@Mark B and Moria: If they answer about the “virus/vaccine/quarentine” (even if it’s fake), the pearl and everything that went there, the DeGroots and Hanso Valenzetti equation (and I kind like my theorie that it was by changing that that you have the loophole and the killing of Jacob), the role of Walt (I guess he is the most belivalble “Candidate” for the reincarnation of Jacob… ether him or Aaron having been born on Island while it was not possible)
If they just talk about that I will be more than happy!
Don’t take it on me guys, I AM making a point giving arguments on a subject I also love but I just feel strange that the biggest questions of the first 2seasons are now… well… nothing?
May 17th, 2009 at 5:45 am
Hi Guys, I loved this episode, I’m sad to read that so many of you were disappointed, keep the faith! I just wanted to mention that something about this story reminds me of the movie Jason and the Argonauts. I can’t quite put my finger on what it is, I haven’t seen the movie since I was a kid. I remembered something about Jason being used as a pawn by the gods, so I looked up the synopsis on Wikipedia and found this entry:
‘Jason, like all mortals, is unknowingly a piece in the game which the gods play against each other. This is an accurate portrayal of Greek theology and rarely found in any modern medium.’
What do you all think? It just rang a bell with me, especially the first scene with Jacob and ‘Esau’ on the beach.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:02 am
The Anti Jacob has to have been Eko!
Right before Eko is killed, “Yemi” asks Eko, “why do you speak to me as if I was your brother?”. Eko then responds “who are you?”… That is enough of a hint for me!
May 17th, 2009 at 6:05 am
Yann, I expressed the same feelings several times in the forum about the incident. I feel like the writers have completely jumped ship on the foundations of the show.
I’m so sad because it appears my favorite long times aspects of the show will not play any role in the outcome, sigh
May 17th, 2009 at 6:12 am
@Moriah, I disagree with you about why we don’t have a “holy crap” ending. Season 3 was so amazing because you never really knew where the flashbacks and flash forwards were in the overall time line of the show.
The reason non of this season has been shocking (especially the finale) is because we are being spoon fed info, I hate the info is now being presented to us. The whole “3 years ago” “30 years later” stuff is just horrible and dumbs down the show.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:16 am
Nobody seems to have mentioned ‘Bad Twin’. Seems the clues were there all along!
May 17th, 2009 at 7:02 am
@ Moriah
To quote you –
“One reason that some writers refuse to answer *all* the questions is so that readers can decide for themselves what may or may not have happened.”
I absolutely agree. This is what really draws us watching and thinking. Honestly, I don’t mind about all the unanswered questions that much. Lost will be timeless and watchable even in 20 years, because the viewer’s involvement in the show is what makes it worthwhile.
Brain food!!
May 17th, 2009 at 7:10 am
If Jacob is the reason for so many things, does his death begin to negate those things? i.e. Does Richard Alpert begin to age rapidly a la Dorian Gray?
And… I’ve heard a lot of people mention that they believe the smoke monster to be somehow connected to Dark Locke. Yet, Dark Locke is perplexed by Ben’s meeting with smokey and the result of that meeting. I believe smokey is an independent entity that is more the “judge” and Jacob and Dark Lock are merely players and our friends, the pieces.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Hi everyone, I’m just doing my part at upping the posts. Great thoughts as always from everyone. @ Doc JKM, your thoughts are dead on. We love this show for all those reasons. @John Harvey, Ihave to disagree with you about the last season coming up. I would love another 2 or 3 seasons to tie up all of the “loose ends” so to speak. However I still believe that this will be the greatest series ever made for broadcast tv. LOST RULES
May 17th, 2009 at 7:56 am
The white flash of Jughead and the moment when Desmond turned the failsafe key seem connected by the location and the bursts of electromagnetic energy at the very least. They occur at separate points in the continuum of time, but what if they act together like two keys that have to be turned simultaneously at distant ends of a passage to unlock that portal or “open the box?” At the intersection of these powerful distortions of the fabric of reality, linear time is circumvented and they are one event with a single effect.
Maybe they just act together to make this “all go away” in the words of Kelvin. The two discharges of energy combined into one incident extinguish the timeline which radiates out like a flash of light after a catastrophic explosion, but the substance of which no longer exists. That is the source of the fertility problems. You can’t conceive anything new into an after image which has no reality of its own.
@ You All Everybody
In terms of the influence of sacred mythology on the story, it might be useful to consider that almost every religious narrative from around the world shares a great many similarities. You have the creation myth, the world emerging from the waters of darkness; the snake/dragon/water monster that symbolizes the primordial chaos; a hero who undertakes a journey, often to the underworld, to return with light/fire/knowledge to share with the rest of humanity. The book to read on this subject is Joseph Campbell’’s “The Hero With a Thousand Faces.” (Audible available?) I’ve always said he would have had a field day with Lost. Anyway, we’ve had Buddhist/Hindu, Islamic, Animistic, Greek, Egyptian, and Judeo/Christian influences on Lost in ample measure. I see the island as perhaps the one source, the Atlantis before the world broke apart in a tower of Babel moment. This would explain all these similarities.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:11 am
It will be hard to let go of LOST for a few months — time to watch previous seasons and catch all the foreshadowing clues, particularly re: Ben, Widmore, Richard and Jacob
In the end, I felt for Juliette and her deep insecurities — previously, she always seemed like such a remote reserved smug character with a continual sneer — i found it hard to like her — she obviously had a profound effect on James by helping him to mature and find contentment
Kate is still my favorite character — i love her spunk and passion — i hope the ending of s6 will be worthy of her
not looking forward to seeing irritating Claire back — if the anti-Jacob inhabits the dead, was Claire in that category? — how about Hurley being “blessed” by his visions? — are some of the visions Jacob?
May 17th, 2009 at 8:36 am
@ Stubble
Sorry, have to disagree. The scene with Sayid and Nadia is not about free will, at least not in the sense of a classic struggle with good/evil, right/wrong. Compare this scene with Locke falling from the window. In your view of “free will”, it was ultimately Locke’s fault for being pushed out of the window — he “chose” to stand in front of the window, where his dad could easily push him out. Is that a better choice than for Nadia to walk into the street to be murdered? Yet, Jacob still touched Locke’s (dead?) body and revived him. Why didn’t he do that for Nadia?
Ultimately, free will is not the message we should be taking away from these scenes. They were probably nothing more than scenes to show how Jacob had previously handpicked our LOSTies for a special purpose — to show that he has always had a plan. Nadia’s death was more likely needed to provide Sayid’s motivation to do what he was destined to do. AND we have enough characters already to deal with in season 6…no sense in bringing her into the picture. Oh, AND because the writers had to clear the way for Sayid and Kate to fall in love.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:49 am
@ Jo in Wales
Bad Twin paid off in big way with the impersonation of Locke. We went from next to nothing to a full presentation of Jacob as well. Let’s hope the numbers and the sickness are not far behind.
@ Eva
Related to my comment above, if TBTB don’t deliver on the big ticket questions, all hell will break loose.
@ Thom Stanley
Although we can’t be certain yet, my feeling is that Dark Locke is just playing Ben at that point. He draws Ben out into revealing what happened while he already has a plan to turn it against him. Smokey acts as a kind of independent verification of Locke’s ascendance when, really, it’s just another guise for the deceiver. Love the Dorian Gray comment.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Sometimes I long for an edit function. I return the graciousness of your spirit as you pardon my errors. Namaste.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
@Yann From France
I see what you mean about wanting those answers but it’s far too early to know what will and what won’t be answered in the series. I think you’re correct that some of the things we want answered won’t be answered but it’d be impossible to know which of the unanswered questions are more important than others. If we knew what was more important, we’d be be spoiled to how it’s all going to end.
@iwantdesmondshair
No reason to be sad yet. Sorry to repeat myself but there’s no way for us to guess what questions will end up being answered in the last season. It is smart to recognize that some may never be answered but there’s no reason to get upset about it yet. As for the the “3 years ago” and “30 years later” stuff, I *mostly* agree with what you are saying. But here’s the thing: for the Season 3 timeline, it was part of the story that you didn’t know where everything fit. You were looking at the *same* characters at *different* points in their life and piecing together what has changed and what has remained the same. This season, you’re looking at *different* characters in *different* times but on their one linear path. It was fine to leave it up in the air for season 3 but there’s no point in it for season 5. For people who post on boards and listen to podcasts, it seems unnecessary but it the casual viewer it may help. I agree that it is a little annoying but since telling us when we are isn’t hurting the shock value, it doesn’t bother me much. I would agrue that there have been some surprising moments this season, but when you’re really involved in the fandom, just about every possiblity is thrown out there so we’re not as surprised when we see it. Had we had a week between seeing Jack in his downward spiral during the Season 3 finale, we probably would have pieced together things like his new cell phone and realized it was a flashfoward. Since it was contained within an episode, though, it was a “holy crap” moment for most of us.
I don’t know. I guess from where I’m sitting, it looks like we have people either upset because the clues aren’t there so we can’t theorize or it’s no surprise because we’re so good at theorizing and we’re drawing to an end so we’re actually getting answers to things we’ve been theorizing about for a very long time.
Honest question, other than the “3 years ago” and “30 years later” example, what else is being spoonfed?
May 17th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
@Jo in Wales
Great point about the Bad Twin! That seems to fit both in terms of Locke and Dark Locke as well as Jacob and Anti-Jacob … the good vs. evil dichotomy we seem to be getting.
@Thom Stanley
I agree that it isn’t definite that the smoke monster and Anti-Jacob are one in the same but Anti-Jacob’s reaction to Ben saying that his dead daughter told him to do whatever Locke said isn’t proof that they aren’t one in the same. Anti-Jacob was playing a role and he had to make Ben believe that this was new information to him. Regardless of whether or not Anti-Jacob and the smoke monster are the same thing, I’d be pretty surprised if Anti-Jacob didn’t already know what “Alex” told Ben. Ben telling Anti-Jacob that Alex’s message worked was still good news to him. It told him that he really had found the loophole because Ben would do his dirty work for him per Alex’s instrucitons. I really liked your point about Jacob’s death could have serious implications for Richard, and possibly others. I’d be bummed to see Richard die or age but I think that we probably will see some changes in him, especially if Jacob doesn’t somehow regain control quickly.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
DocJKM
You were right on
We are addicted to Lost We all know it Lets face it
I for one dedicated enough time to enjoy this blog to know that I am a few thousand dollars (albeit CDN$) down
But who knows, I may have used this time to improve my golf game (which has suffered a bit)
So whats a little pleasure worth ?
Getting back to the eye at the end
We in Canada are not getting, for regulatory reasons (protecting Canadian identity) the US feed when it airs
This means that we miss the last couple of minutes that overlap the next program which is often not a ABC program on the CTV network.
It sucks the same way we dont get to see the Super Bowl commercials live but only the next day on the net
Fortunately for us French minority in Quebec we get to see the tranlated versions over the summer in their entireity
So by the end of August I will know what this eye is all about
Anyway this show would be as much fun without you all everybody chipping in We just like comparing notes…
Thanks Jen & Ryan
May 17th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I actually meant that it would NOT be as much fun
Keep the ideas and theories coming
May 17th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Hindsight is really 20/20.
I don’t need to be negative about the show…just thought it was funny. Locke lands on the pavement after falling out of the window of a high rise building and none of the passerby’s look up. – strange.
Ryan & Jen….Can’t wait for the podcast.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I was just rewatching the final scene and suddenly realised that when Jacob says to Ben “What about you?” he may not have been saying it in a why should I care way but in a way that asks the question back at Ben asking him about all the bad things he had done…. lying about talking to Jacob to get his own way etc.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
I agree, Mark B, that it didn’t come off on the second viewing the way that it came off upon first viewing. I definitely don’t think he meant it the way that Ben took it. Jacob didn’t seem to be saying it in a cruel way at all. It kinda reminds me of Christian’s question to Jack earlier in the episode … “are you sure it’s me who doesn’t believe in you?”
May 17th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
So, we have to assume that the Locke, Rose, etc Healings were not the mystical island rather Anti-Jacob priming the losties for possible conversion to do his bidding as part of/a the loop hole. I remember Rose questioning why Jack got sick when ‘people don’t get sick here’ and Ben’s tumor, they simply were not candidates to the anti-Jacob at that point and were not healed because were no deemed to have any value in the ultimate persuit of killing Jacob.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
@Yann From France
regarding Valenzetti: alas, not canon. I find the release of seemingly crucial pieces of the puzzle but are non-canonical to be frustrating (to us fans) at best, and irresponsible (of TPTB) at worst. Personally, I am actually bitter about the Comic Con video of Pierre Chang sending a message 30 years in to the future, and that the cameraman was (by the voice) Daniel Faraday. Eventually, Dalton retracted this very convincing production with the wimpy characterization of it as being a “continuity error.” Continuity my arse.
This leads to the bigger question you raise: which I will paraphrase: in contrast to J.K. Rowling’s handling of Harry Potter, will LOST tie together at its end, and will the final season answer the many open questions. I am very confident that the answer to this will be a resounding NO. Although LOST will be much better than other shows, such as Twin Peaks or X-Files. I believe there are several reasons for this:
1) While the original creative team may have had some idea what the story was about, it did wander for a while, and much was put out there just to keep us fans confused and intrigued and puzzled and bought-in. Darlton have said that not every question will be answered. Of course not, because there is no over-arching coherent story that accommodates everything that we have seen. Some bits will be given short shrift, such as the Polar Bears, which are now considered to have been adequately explained (so says Carlton in a video interview): they were brought to Hydra island by Dharma, after the Incident escaped, and swam over to the main island, where they reproduced. C’mon — we’re supposed to believe that polar bears can survive in such conditions??? And then, of course the interviewer asks: what about the one in Tunisia? Uhhmmm….
2) The story must accommodate the realities of production. The actor portraying Eko wanted to leave Hawai’i, and so he had to be written out of the story (much as we liked him, and his church was incomplete). Similar problems arose with the actresses portraying Libby and Ana Lucia, who needed to offed from the show. I’ve no idea what other realties factor.
3) The mythology is just too dang big! There’s been soooo much back-story crafted that there’s no way to make it all tie together (fiction is much messier than reality).
4) The fans often like characters that are consequential to the evolving story. I believe Rose and Bernard are such. So, to appease “our” (collective) fervent desire to know what has happened to them, a scene is crafted to explain they are now happily living in the woods. Bye-bye. (uhh, how do they get through the sonic fence to steal food from the D.I. ? or is someone bringing it to them? oops! more questions).
5) TPTB may want a story ending that leaves room for either a (television) spin-off or a (movie) sequel. In such case, perhaps the story can’t be buttoned up all too completely and the questions answered all too fully.
fwiw.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
About answers and negative comments on the show …..
1. Answers: D&C have said that some of the mysteries will not be answered (e.g. Libbys past) and others as far as they are concerned have already been answered (e.g. the numbers). My feeling is that many will not be answered at all (eg quarrantine on Swan) and others will only be answered by conjecture (eg Adam and Eve => Rose and Bernard). Others will have to be answered (eg origin of Smoke Monster but even that maybe left hanging). I suspect D&C started the show with an over arching storyline and the idea that they needed to add more mysteries to keep people watching but now they are closing the loops they will not close all of them. Now we are into the final season I believe they will have to be very selective and will only answer the mysteries THEY consider important. A season where they answer mysteries ever week will not be the same.
2. Negative comments on the show: Some people will rate LOST as the greatest hour on tv no matter what happens in the show — some people would say an hour of Jack-Kate-Sawyer love triangle was pure gold. Some people will always rate episodes average, even one like the Constant. Some episodes are bound to be better than others. I just feel that the S5 finale didn’t cut the mustard. The opening scene was one of the best scenes in the entire show. The Juliet ‘death’ (is she dead or is she pinged into the future/past with our othe Lostaways … anyone want to call her agent and see if Elizabeth Mitchell is avaliable for work next fall?) scene was one of the worst. Ben killing Jacob, was great, Jack’s motivation to explode the bomb to reset history for another chance at Kate was plain stupid — she’ll be going to jail Jack and you won’t know her like ever. Hence my overall rating of good but not great.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
@Mark B – I would be lying if I said I didn’t share some of your frustrations, even though I am usually the first one out there to defend the fact that just an hour ‘Jack-Kate Sawyer’ is still better than anything else out there. That being said, I have a feeling that the ‘quarantine’ inside is the Swan hatch was put there due to the detonation of the bomb and the possible long-term impact on the island environment it could have caused in the immediate vicinity around the Swan. Maybe the electromagnetism kind of ’sucked’ the H-bomb energy within, thus causing an impending implosion, hence the failsafe key, yada, yada, yada. Another possibility was that it was marked as quarantine to keep Radzinsky from ever venturing out too far, and since he was the one against deploying non-essentials off the island and the one that kept on drilling against Chang’s wishes, it might have been put there to keep him imprisoned in the potentially unsafe environment he helped to cause.
Regarding the concern of missing answers to questions Vs. spoonfed answers: Another possibility is that the answer of some mysteries will then also answer other numerous remaining mysteries without having to be spoon-fed to audience. Case in point, the reveal of the AJ looking for a loophole and the rest of the opening scene and taking the form of DeadLocke answered multiple questions: 1. The compass was originally posessed by AJ (at least pre-loop) 2. Locke was not really brought back to the ‘land of the living’ 3. The island was not able to talk to Locke, it was AJ’s communication with the island, 4. Why Jacob was so secluded (to avoid the chance of being killed by AJ), yada, yada, yada.
True, it then brought in a whole new series of questions, but I would have to put some faith in the writers that as the questions become wider in scope and concept, the answers will follow suit, and then some of the more trivial issues will be answered in the course of the story unfolding.
Just my two cents. No, you cannot have your change back! Heehee
May 17th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
@christy in TX
Don’t get me wrong, I think LOST is the only hour on tv worth paying for.
Between S4 and S5 I left the US and moved to Australia who are about three or four epis behind. Of all the tv I watched in the US, which wasn’t much, the only show I watch via my old US iTunes account is LOST. I now pay the $2 per show to get it the next day. I will continue to do this through S6. LOST is the best show on tv, the only one really worth watching, however within a season there are always ups and downs, better and worse episodes. I still say that the finale was not as great as people are making out. It had great parts but also enough bad parts to make it only a good episode, not a great one.
As for answers, your explaination of the quarantine sign is a case in point. We have concluded from what we have seen why the sign is there. I think the D&C will not go out of their way to explain it ‘in show’. I think we WILL get answers to the major plot points but I am also very sure many fans will be dissappointed with the lack of answers and even the S6 finale. I foresee a high percentage of fans will proably be dissappointed with the final wrap-up and even the final scene.
The problem TPTB have is that, this time next year, fans may end up concentrating their energy into rants about the lack of specific mystery answers rather than veiwing the six year LOST story as what it is …. a character driven sci-fi/mystery show that is (or at that tiem was) far superior to everything else on tv.
D&C have a choice they can cram in all the answers and risk a ’spoon fed’ final season or they can leave some open ended and face the wrath of the fans. I bet they go for the second option. A third option would be as I said before have a one/two hour special interview where they discuss what answers they didn’t provide. Something on a LOST Complete DVD set to make us part with more cash even though we have all the seasons in seperate sets !
May 17th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
@Mark B –
Did you dislike Juliet’s “death” scene because it was so unrealistic that she’d survive that fall? I personally loved the acting and dialog between Sawyer and Juliet in that scene so I just want to be sure I know where you’re coming from.
Regarding her unlikely survival, I actually have an interesting theory from my brother, with me elaborating on it a little … but I haven’t had a chance to check the actual episode yet to see if I really believe this is possible. He was telling me that Juliet waking up from the fall looks very similar to Locke waking up from his fall. Is it possible that Jacob was there but we couldn’t see him? That the reason we didn’t see Juliet touched in her flashback this episode is because he touched her in that moment and gave her life, similar to how he revived Locke?… but why don’t we see Jacob there? Maybe this is where the loophole comes to help Jacob out. By Ben killing Jacob in 2007 at the same time in the Losties’ lives that the Incident is happening in 1977, Jacob’s spirit is able to break away from his body and transcend time to save Juliet so she can detonate the bomb and the 1977 Losties can be propelled forward into 2007 to fight against Anti-Jacob. Alright, I know that’s kinda out there, especially the leaps that I made about 2007 and 1977 happening at the same time and spirit-Jacob transcending time … but I still find it pretty interesting to think about.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I would be mighty disappointed if they answered every last question that’s ever been raised on this show. I realize that puts me in the minority, but the whole allure of Lost to me is the mystery and having ALL of the individual mysteries put to rest would leave me feeling like the show is completely de-mystified. I want to be able to go back and watch all of the episodes from season one on and still wonder about the smaller mysteries and create my own ideas about the answers.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
As long as they don’t explain the force.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Highlights of the finale for me were the opening sequence on the beach and the final scene in Jacob’s lair. There was a moment between Kate and Jack that seemed genuine, where they both wanted to say a lot more to each other but couldn’t — I loved it. Best line of the show: “What about you?” It was as if Jacob was saying, “Ben, let go of your ego. Why do you think you’re any better than anyone else?”
My low points were much the same as what was posted in Ryan’s blog summary (Kate/Sawyer/Juliet’s silly motivational changes and Jack’s “I had her but lost her” reasoning), although I didn’t go to bed mad like Jen. LOL. Also, I found it hard to believe Sayid would know how to remove a nuclear warhead from the bomb AND arm it to detonate on impact. He was a torturer and a communications specialist — I guess I must have missed the episode where he was given specialized nuclear bomb training by Saddam. Small quibble.
Overall, I really enjoyed the finale and can’t wait for Season 6.
Oh, and on a final note I want to take this opportunity to say to Jen and Ryan, I love your podcasts!! I happened on them this past summer, and now they’re just a regular part of my LOST fix. Thanks for all your hard work.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
@Moriah
It’s surviving the fall with tonnes of metal crashing around her I found preposterous. It was capped off by the smacking of the bomb with a rock to make it go off …. assuming it went off that is and the incident was that not something else. Sorry don’t buy the Jacob theory but it is a possibility. That said I really hope Juliet is alive, she probably isn’t.
@Funky Dunky
I’m with you. Leave unsolved mysteries and let us speculate on and on and on.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
A theory I ran by Ryan and Jen…
maybe it’ll make the podcast…though it is kinda crazy.
Hurley is the key to saving Jacob or perhaps the balance against “evil locke”.
During Jacob’s adventures through time he had several items that helped the losties…
money, a pen, and candy…
now when hurley get’s out of jail…what do we see him get? A pen, money, and candy.
Then the person he meets outside in the cab is Jacob…who tell him he’s not bad luck at all, but that his abilities are actually useful and a gift.
What if this is massive foreshadowing?
my call to ryan and jen goes into a LOT more detail…
but I figured I would post it here for you all.
May 17th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Moriah: wow that is an amazing thought- I do think we are going to see the significance of those events happening simultaneously…like in season 1 when the hatch opening and the raft kidnapping were happening at the same time. I like that theory.
@Robert A. Jones: after I read your post I rewatched “left behind” which is the episode you retell where Juliette and Kate are chained together and smokey flashes white lights at Juliette…I wonder- like you- if this is connected to the white light or even how her Character plays this VERY significant role in “The Incident” I also thought it was cool how Sawyer being a leader is foreshadowed in that episode and its Hurley who “nudges” him or “pushes” him in that direction which leads me to..
@Jesse again: You are right…I do think Hurley is going to be significant and I did not pick up on the fact that he was given those items when released form Jail…one friend said to me “Hurley is the new ’special”". I think this is where we will learn the significance of the numbers…something having to do with Hurley.
I cant believe every time I check the blog there are so many more great ideas and theories and we were so close to the 500 posts its crazy…but the podcast has been cast….I think we could still get there…
May 17th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
So many posters seem to expect Juliet back for season 6. I doubt it because Elizabeth Mitchell is going to be in V next year.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
I saw an interview with her and she said V was just a guest star role and it was all done now. She filmed both V and LOST at the same time. The bit about being a guest star and it’s all over could be a pre-LOST finale cover-up to avoid the obvious. As much as I don’t want it to be true, I agree she’s gone.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
hey jesse again: i hope you are right..but i think that you are giving it more thought than the actual writers do…. your take on it is beautiful tho.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
mark b: ive read a few posts where people are up in arms about juliette still being alive and the bomb not going off. i dont get this. basically you are saying that bomb should go off (it does) and that she should be dead (well, i think she is) so how did her being alive and the bomb not going off right awahy effect anything? it made no difference….youre upset that she survived a fall but have no prob believing that she was there in the first place (time travel) ….hmmmmmmm
May 17th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
@bertran
I can “believe” in time-travel because it’s pure sci-fi — suspension of belief. Most sci-fi shows/movies rely on this, many other TV dramas/cop shows do to but to a lesser extent. Over analysis kills suspension of disbelief. Suspension of disbelief also falls down when someone does something that is within my knowledge base yet breaks all the rules — like falling 100+ feet with tonnes of metal around them lives. I am sure people can find an example of someone living through such and event if they look long enough. Maybe building collapse or an earthquake survivour ? Perhaps I am being a little harsh.
However I suppose my other gripe is that the writers could easily have written it that the electromagent effect pulls Juliet into the shaft, her and Sawyer do their I love you thing, she falls, THEN Jack has to drop the bomb in and it goes off on impact. Would have been more dramatic and less jump the shark.
But hey it’s one scene, I’ll live with it.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:37 am
I love this. I love everything about this! Something has been bothering me though…Way back…what was the point of Locke needing to kill his father (brought by the “magic box”) to prove his worth. Then Richard knowing he couldn’t do it so he gives John Sawyers file. Was the real John being tested even then? Or was that just twisted Ben logic? Will that be one of the story lines that just gets dropped? Will the “box” EVER be explained?
May 18th, 2009 at 7:58 am
@paige, I also wondered how the ‘kill your dad’ requirement came about. Why would Jacob and/or Ben want Locke to kill his dad?
I could see that if Jacob ordered all Dharma folks killed for security of the island, then yes, Ben would have to be able to kill his father, but it’s not like Locke’s dad just happened to be living on the island and a threat to the island.
It is another reason I am not yet on board with ‘Jacob is good, Other guy is bad’ storyline. Too simple. Especially with the white and black tunics, if it were a western, they would be in white and black cowboy hats, a little too cliche for me.
I am thinking they are two greek gods playing an elaborate game testing human nature. And honestly, I will be happy with that.
I still think it is unanswered whose side Hawking and Widmore are on.
I love this show and I think this podcast makes it much more enjoyable. Thanks R&J!!!
May 18th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Mark in Omaha, Sayid was reading Daniel’s journal pretty closely. Perhaps if there were detailed instructions about what to do with the bomb, combined with some general training he would have had in the military, that would have been enough for him to be able to do the deed. A bit of a stretch, I know, but no more than some other plot contrivances we accept to move the story forward. Works for me anyway!
May 18th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Great podcast this season and thank you for all your effort. It’s wonderful to find good people and the proper subject worthy of such intelligent discussion.
A few comments about the last podcast. The references to friendship go far beyond just a mannerism or code word for the statue-worshippers. It’s been one of those oft repeated thematic nodes like “see you in another life.” Two quick examples. In “Because You Left,” Ben says to Jack that Hurley will be considerably easier to recruit than the rest of Jack’s friends because of his commission at Santa Rosa. Jack says, “they’re not my friends anymore.” To which Ben sarcastically replies “that’s the spirit.” Another example that occurs to me off the top of my head was when Hurley conned Sayid and Locke’s crew captured him at the barracks. I believe Ben says something to the effect of “I know it’s no good having friends if you can’t trust them.” Actually, the drink shared/the drink refused we’ve seen so many times may connect to this theme as well by being a polite offering of friendship (Widmore & the whiskey, Alpert and the OJ, tea, lemonade, milk, etc).
R & J enjoyed Ben’s line, “I’m a Pisces.” Soon it began to dawn on me that this is not a throwaway line either. Pisces, the sign of the fish. An earlier poster noted an oblique reference perhaps to Jacob being a “fisher of men” like Jesus. The use of fishing metaphor in the Bible and the astrological sign of Pisces tie together beautifully because this sign symbolized the nation of Israel in addition to its more obvious connotations. I learned in an astrology class once that the magi who foretold of the coming of a savior did so because of the appearance of a nova or great star in the sign of Pisces in the night sky. He who will save us all?
Why is Radzinski on button duty? What you need to consider is that Radzinski may be performing this duty in the swan hatch long after the purge occurs. In this case, the quarantined hatch is the last bastion and vestige of the DI. We know for sure that Kelvin remained in the hatch until 2001 AD (After Desmond). We know Kelvin mentored Sayid in the arts of torture in the first Gulf War. We know Kelvin and Radzinski shared the hatch for some time before the mad scientist quit this world. We also have some dates on the old blast door map if they hold up to scrutiny. So Radzinski must still have been there well into the 90’s. I know everyone loves to hate him, but Rad has definitely become one of my favorite characters. Compelling, I mean. He too believes he’s on a mission to change the world. I think we’re going to see remorse for the colossal mistakes he has made, isolation, perhaps madness (from the sickness), and then despair. You might have a different perspective on him at the end.
There was a comment about water keeping smokey at bay. This might apply to AJ as well. AJ tosses Jacob into the fire, an element or instrument traditionally associated with the forces of evil. Fire and Water?
It would be great if that title were intentional. I fall into the unified field camp. Every question, to the greatest extent possible, should come together in a single, elegant explanation. Everything that rises must converge.
On Rose and Bernard as Adam and Eve. I get the idea of their love and harmony making them good candidates for the pair who lived together and did not die alone in this little eden. It’s the black and white stones that make me disinclined to accept this theory. I think those stones still have a deeper symbolic significance and Rose and Bernard have now retired from the game.
Loved the comment about Locke’s shoes and Jesse Again noting the items Hurley had in possession and the backgammon game. Hurley’s a beast at every game from table tennis to horseshoes. Walt’s the only one who ever beat him–at backgammon no less.
Defend the island.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Astronomy class.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I saw a weird Lost related dream tonight which I’ll come back to in a moment.
So far, each season (except maybe for S4) has started with the point of view of some character. Wouldn’t it be cool is S6 premiered with the point of view of AJ/Dark Locke or the Smoke Monster?
Here’s the thing about my dream -
I dreamed that we saw the Island through the “eyes” of Smokey. We saw him storm around the Island and then take from of different characters. His perspective was mind-blowing, ancient and wild.
I’m not sure if I’d even like that but in my dream it was way waay cool:)
May 18th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
OK… How the show is going to end? Jacob or the other is going to say: “There, you have lost”.
Richard part? Referee, keeper of the rules, watcher.
A king can’t check another king. Therefore Wildmore/Ben or Jacob/other player can’t kill each others.
Once a player has been removed from the game, he can’t come back. “If I move the Island…” and “Dead is dead”. That’s what Wildmore said “I tried to come back but never succeded”. But Ben and Locke so obsessed by the Island and having been both manipulated by “the other player” did the unthinkable: recreating flight 815 to go back. So the loopehole is old leaders coming back on the board thus not playing by the rules anymore so… leader killing materials.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Did anyone noticed… Walt’s dream as occured:
John Locke is on a beach, in a suit surounded by people who wants to hurt him (well the other him)
May 18th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Ho and just a thought for those who belive that “what ever happened happened”.
Charlie was saved 3 or 4 times before is real death… the steam of the water did not changed by throwing small rocks but it did some waves.
The Incident is the magnetic discharge that has to be released every 108minutes. And the safekey was the atomic bomb. But if the safekey is used in 77 what will happen?
And the last reason (except Pierre Chang arms)… Did any of you saw the last movie produced by Daemon Lindeloff? I don’t want to spoil it for anyone but let’s say that this guy knows how to do a reboot when he wants to do a reboot.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
And one last thing that nobody seems to care about:
on the survivors of Oceanic 815 who is still alive?
The Oceanic 6 (so… 5 of them), Sawyer and Jin, Rose and Bernard, Vincent, some of the tail section who has been “taken”, Walt… and Claire(maybe).
May 18th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I don’t think this has been mentioned but I may have missed it… remember when Locke saw the ‘monster’ in season 1 and said it was ‘beautiful’?? I don’t think he saw Smokey at that time. I think he saw Jacob!!! The second time, when Smokey grabbed him and tried to drag him down the hole, was totally different. I think both Jacob and the guy in black from the start of the show are really smoke or some form of energy, one light and one dark.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:45 am
@Nancy from California
Love the idea that Locke first saw Jacob, who was “beautiful”.
May 19th, 2009 at 7:13 am
Or to add creedence to the idea of dual smoke monsters, ponder Mr. Eko’s response to Locke’s statement that what he saw was beautiful. “That is NOT what I saw.”
May 19th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Is Elizabeth Mitchell’s casting in the new V series proof that Juliette is, in fact, dead in season 6? http://bit.ly/D1pQH
May 19th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Like others, I was disappointed with the finale. The jacob mythology was great, but the love triangle precipitating such significant events at the swan just seemed weak.
I believe reincarnation plays a significant role in what is to be revealed. In Buddhist teachings, humans continue a rebirth cycle until they reach nirvana, a state without suffering. To reach this, one must part with all attachment to material things, other people and self. Once of all of these have no importance to your life and you discover the true nature of existence, your cycle is complete. The path intended to help those achieve it is, of course, Dharma. I like the irony.
In support:
- The aforementioned reincarnation anagram on the van
- Jacob’s comment that “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.” [Nirvana is the end, the rest is the rebirth cycle]
- Jacob’s comment to Ben “what about you” meaning, neither Ben nor Jacob nor anyone else has any significance to the enlightened
- The importance of how bodies are handled
It would follow that our losties were, in a previous life, inhabitants of the island. This is why Jacob visited them in the off-island lives. And I think that each character is at a different point in their “cycle”. For example, jacob visited Sayid and Hurley after they left the island once. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin and Sun all met him before the island.
With respect to Jacob and AJ….I’m not convinced they are two separate people – and I think it is significant that AJ’s proper name wasn’t mentioned. I believe that whole first scene may have been a figurative discussion jacob was having with himself – the yin/yang that all of us have in us. Jacob/AJ, himself, is still not truly enlightened.
May 19th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
I was watching old episodes of Roseanne on the Oxygen network and just found out that when Roseanne’s family wins the lottery at the end of the series, the amount of money they win is $108 million!
Cool, huh??
May 19th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Has anyone theorized that Jacob is actually Aaron? I have no basis for this speculation other than this: Jacob tells Locke he’s sorry for what he put Locke through, he tells Sun and Jin to hold on to what they have, I admit I don’t recall what he said to the others he met, but I seem to remember that what he said to everyone was an indication that he knew he was about to put them through something, some kind of test, that may be difficult for them, but he has to make contact with all the pawns…so the fact that he didn’t meet Claire or Juliet in the past perhaps is because he didn’t want them to have to go through that test (the test being everything the Losties have gone thru on the island which I’m assuming has been some sort of battle of wills between Jacob and A.J. all along. So the fact that Claire is his mom and that Juliet tried to help Claire by injecting her on the island is why those two were exempted from being “chosen.” Also, Claire appears to Kate and says not to bring Aaron back…perhaps because she knows that he will be killed by Ben (although it did happen nonetheless). I don’t know, I just have a feeling that Jacob is Aaron. i also feel like the Others are all people who have been subjected to this battle between Jacob and A,J. like our Losties and that at the end of the series finale, our Losties will end up being indoctrinated by the Others as the new Dharma Initiative gets underway and a new set of poor souls will crash on the island, starting the cycle anew and that the last image of the entire series will be the eye of one of the new crash passengers opening in a tight shot, just as with Jack at the very beginning of the series, then cut to black and THUD! I guess this is what you call a crackpot theory.
May 20th, 2009 at 6:30 am
I’ve gone looking but I haven’t seen this idea yet:
Richard Alpert is already dead. He doesn’t directly agree with Locke’s comment about never aging, but just says he’s like that because of Jacob. Because Jacob reanimated him after he died?
May 21st, 2009 at 6:06 am
What did I miss – why did everyone jump to the conclusion that The Man In Black has possessed the body of Locke? I’m confused about this part. Was there a scene in the Incident that explained this? Thanks.
May 21st, 2009 at 7:09 am
Chris in Seattle: The Man in Black says, at the start of the episode, “Someday I’ll find my loophole.” At the end of the episode, Dark Locke (a.k.a. Not Locke a.k.a. Flocke) is told by Jacob, “I guess you found your loophole.”
May 21st, 2009 at 7:39 am
Ryan: Thanks very much. That makes sense.
May 21st, 2009 at 9:39 pm
I can’t help but think recent theories have been tied up too much in what has transpired in the last couple seasons. Remember many early theories focused on the islands clear magnetic properties. Magnetism is the ultimate power source of the island and its probably what powers its ability to move and bend the time/space continuum.
There is so much history behind the island, ancient statues, old ships, even jacob and his counterpart reference what seems to be a very long past. So heres my theory:
The island is the origin of the universe and some “omniscient being” who created the universe places 2 ‘entities’ on the island to protect it from being ‘tainted’ from world evolution. Jacob mentions ‘progress’ at the beginning of this finale and I take that to be how humans have made progress over the eons.
However, the two stewards, Jacob and his ‘friend’ disagree in how to protect the island. Jacob believes in seclusion. the other guy, believes man can be perfect and can live in harmony w/ the island. But each time the other guy attempts to bring man onto the island, man always sins, turning to greed, murder, etc. and things reset.
Jacob and the other guy are not human but they can take human form through use of electromagnetic energy. Blood is filled with iron and blood pulses through everyone’s body. Iron is distributed in various chemical compounds such as haemoglobin (in red blood cells), serum ferritin (iron stores) and haemosiderin (e.g. in clotted blood). These compounds are not ferromagnetic; they are weakly paramagnetic and can only be controlled at cold temperatures by magnetic energy. Therefore, they can only control a human or become human if the body is dead. This does not however, mean that they cannot take other forms (i.e. smoke monster) or read peoples thoughts, visions or deliver ‘voices’ to your brain through the iron your blood going through your brain.
Ultimately its a game between these stewards of opposing views on humans and their divergent arguments over love, honor, greed, fate and all other emotions that make humans unique. Its almost like the computer in WarGames where logic cannot solve everything. Not sure how it plays out but cant wait for season 6 to prove me all wrong!
Love the show and would appreciate any thoughts you may have on the ‘high level’ theory!
Mahalo, Brad
May 22nd, 2009 at 9:41 am
@Brad – I really liked all your thoughts but I think you have Jacob and the other guy switched. It is the other guy (Anti-Jacob) who said that Jacob brought the ship there to prove him wrong. It is Anti-Jacob who said “they come, fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.” To which Jacob countered, “it only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.” It seems to me that Jacob has been off the island and has orchestrated that these people come to the island. Perhaps Anti-Jacob has been off island too. But Jacob is the one who has hope that the actually ending will be far better than what they have seen in the past. Everything else you had to say is very intriguing and I can definitely see what you’re saying about Jacob and Anti-Jacob taking human form through electromagnetic energy.
May 22nd, 2009 at 1:34 pm
@Beerad: Yumi was still a skeleton before he was shown walking and talking to Eko.
Ok everyone… I listened to this one again a few weeks ago and I guess you NEED to listen to it:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/March_21,_2008
Now what do we learn? Yumi: monster. 3peoples are “undead” Yumi,Christian and… well… Horse.
So, undead means monster. So… now who do we have who sure is “undead”: Alex. I guess everyone agrees on this one.
But what about Locke, is he “undead”? The thing is: Yumi and Christian’s body diseapered before the monster took their form. What about Locke?
But maybe the monster tricked everyone by removing the dead bodies to make you think he was the real deal…
May 22nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
@Rich in Cleveland. I love your most recent post because I agreed with so much of what you said. I still think the “red Herring” must be significant and I hadnt thought twice about the seemingly throw away line “I’m a Pisces” except as a tool for comic relief…I loved your fishers of men etc. comments.
I too, find Radzinski interesting in that I think he will be left in his own version of purgatory.
I, also, am not convinced that Rose and Bernard are Adam and eve- partially because of the timing- except if they end up flashing way back again and staying there…unless that is one of those plot discrepancies like Charlotte’s age.
And finally – I, also, like the idea that the shoes are significant- I have said this before…but it was reminiscent of the Ruby Slippers that one needed to wear to be a leader, or have special gifts in the land of Oz.
@Yann From France:
“Did anyone noticed… Walt’s dream as occurred:
John Locke is on a beach, in a suit surrounded by people who wants to hurt him (well the other him)”
I have wondered about this dream myself- because Walt is special and sees the future- but I am not sure he was surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him- I think it is still yet to come. I liked what someone said on the podcast about how maybe Jacob will take good Locke’s body and we will have our “pod Locke” and our “Good Locke” on the Island at the same time creating all sorts of confusion and mayhem and a great acting role for Terry O’Quinn.
@Michael- I read your post a few times- and I am not sure I get it- but I find it really interesting- you are saying that Aaron- Baby Aaron – Claire’s baby- was actually Jacob? I don’t get that…but what you say about protecting him etc I think is very significant…there is clearly some bloodlines here- some lineage- that is obviously important.
and finally- a few people have brought up Ecko which is really interesting- how he didn’t see smokey as beautiful and how his “brother” killed him but the line “I am not your brother” seems very significant. I suppose if I was Anti Jacob and I had this long plan to Kill Jacob that involved using John Locke then I would want to get Mr. Ecko out of the picture too- since he often questioned John and was a strong character who had turned his life around and was really making all of these “good choices” so I would want him gone so I could use the more flawed characters to do my will.
…and really- finally- what about when people did not die until they were supposed to- like Michael and Charlie…and even when Rousseau didn’t bite it when her husband tried to kill her – instead she could kill him….
ok…I am sad we may not get to 500 posts since there is a new section in which to post…but we made a great stab at it!
Thanks R and J and all the posters- this was a fun season to watch Lost with all of you!
May 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
From the Official Lost Recap at the ABC site- the identity of the statue: “we’ve been waiting to see since we first glimpsed that four-toed foot over three years ago… the towering, majestic statue of the Egyptian goddess Taweret.”
the link is http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=recap#t=162212&d=201648