Next: “The Incident” (Episode 5-16/17)

The Season 5 finale gave us the widest view yet of what’s been unfolding on the The Island, and for that, I’m thrilled. But the Season 5 finale also honed in on some of our character’s most petty failings, and for that, we’re both somewhat annoyed. Frankly, Jen was livid. I like the suggestion that we’ve been watching only the latest round in a perpetual battle between light and dark — one in which our survivors finally opened a “loophole” for the dark forces to gain the upper hand. I don’t like the idea that the huge, dramatic, cataclysmic detonation of the Jughead core we’ve been building up to all season came only as the result of more twists in the “para-love-ogram.”

Let’s start with what I liked. Though “like” is dependent entirely on the foolhardy presumption that my interpretation of what we’ve seen with Jacob is right. Based solely on the opening scene, no less. To wit:

Jacob is light, goodness, benevolence. His nemesis, yet unnamed, is dark, petty, judgemental. Perhaps for an eternity, they have battled on The Island. But they cannot vanquish each other directly. The Island is largely the chess board, and the pieces are men. Imperfect, flawed humans. By the time the Black Rock arrives, they’ve been through the cycle many times. Jacob summoned another group, believing they might avoid self destruction. Darkness says, “It always ends the same.”

So the Black Rock, the Dharma Initiative, perhaps even The Others, and most certainly the survivors of Flight 815… each group came to the island, struggled over leadership, and self destructed.

Richard Alpert, perpetual advisor, serves Jacob by trying to guide and protect whomever is the leader: Eloise (who Richard called his leader in 1977), Ben (whom Richard and perhaps Jacob felt was ultimately an inadequate leader), and Locke (who Richard presumed to be special, even if it was Locke that gave him that idea in the first place). Darkness, meanwhile, acts through visions, or actually possessing the form of the dead. Christian Shephard. Alex. Perhaps Claire. And, yes, the late Locke, whom we now know isn’t Locke. We’ll call him Dark Locke.

Jacob is compassionate and feels for these flawed people. He visits them, literally touches them, perhaps merely knowing their path, or perhaps steering them. However the cycle ends, he knows it must end.

But something happened with Oceanic Flight 815. Something about this last cycle was different. And the why and how are, most likely, part of what awaits in Season Six. Nonetheless, the combination of The Incident, of Desmond turning the failsafe, of Eloise sending them back on Ajira 316 but scattering them through time — this whole convoluted series events, the entirety of the last five seasons of “LOST” — has led us to the loophole. The loophole that allowed Darkness to vanquish Jacob, with Ben as his instrument.

What is the loophole?

I can only guess by guessing at the rules. Only the leader can enter the temple. There can be only one leader. And the leader, essentially, decides who wins. Darkness, through manipulating the leader with visions and the reanimated dead, has probably brought the leader to Jacob dozens or hundreds of times. Each time, the leader has probably arrived, ready to reject and kill Jacob. But once inside, alone, Jacob appeals to the leader’s better self, gives them a choice, and they always choose light.

Darkness found his loophole through Locke. I’m not sure exactly when, but Locke had been the key for a while. Locke eventually died. And, yes, Locke is still dead. But with his body returned to the island, Darkness was able to take the form of Locke, becoming Dark Locke, and bewilder everyone  — including Ben and, curiously, Richard — with his knowledge of The Island. He asserts many times that he is the leader. And he repeatedly taunts Ben for never having made the cut with Jacob.

Dark Locke brings everyone to Jacob. He, the supposed leader, goes into Jacob’s lair, and insists on bringing Ben. Why? Because Ben is the leader. Ben’s been the leader ever since he returned on Ajira 316 and woke up in the infirmary, because Locke is still dead. That’s the loophole. And Dark Locke, having goaded Ben during the entire journey, looses his jealousy and insecurity and rage, and Ben, the leader, stabs Jacob and throws him into the fire.

The end?

Of course not. With his last breath, Jacob says, “They’re coming.” Who? My guess, perhaps obviously, is that “they” are everyone misplaced in time, back in 1977, who are near the Swan and subjected to the universe-twisting combination of electromagnetism and a hydrogen bomb blast. My guess for Season 6 is that everyone is reunited in 2007, but Darkness rules The Island, and the epic battle will be these imperfect, flawed humans trying to vanquish him.

But I could be completely wrong.

For example, where does the smoke monster fit? Is it an agent of Darkness? I’m inclined to think so, since it does stand in judgment of men, finding them unworthy and destroying them much as I imagine Darkness would. It could also be the agent through which Darkness assumes the form of the dead, such as both Alex and Dark Locke in the temple. Jen’s question, though, is how Ben became familiar enough with it to use it for his own means. It may be more likely that the smoke monster is a free agent.

Where do Bram and Ilana fit? Given the riddle, I guess they’re aligned with Alpert, and therefore presumably Jacob. What role will they play? I certainly hope it’s something more significant than teasing viewers with a mystery box for half a season. And if we now know that Ilana always knew Locke was in that box, she was obviously not surprised by seeing Dark Locke eating a mango in “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.” How can she not be surprised by Dark Locke, but Alpert be apparently merely suspicious? And could they actually be agents of Darkness? After all, in the opening scene in the ancient past, it’s Darkness who calls Jacob “my friend.”

And if we’ve actually been watching pawns on a chess board, manipulated by Jacob and Darkness, it’d be somewhat disheartening to imagine that the longstanding battle between crafty and clever Ben and rich industrialist Charles Widmore is essentially insignificant. There has to be more to it.

Yet, Ben was goaded into killing Jacob after decades of servitude simply by becoming a petulant, whiny, sore loser. Juliet reverses herself halfway through the “Stop Jack” mission, simply because Sawyer looked at Kate funny. And Jack admits that his talk about destiny was all a crock: he wants to detonate a deadly hydrogen bomb simply because he blew it with Kate. Sayid is shot, valiantly rigs the bomb to go off on impact, but it doesn’t. Juliet dies, but doesn’t, but does, because Jack didn’t detonate the bomb, she did. And Miles gets the throwaway line about how their actions are creating the events they’re trying to stop… all bringing us to the big dramatic blast that wasn’t, because it was effectively “defused” by all the character machinations that led up to it.

The preceding paragraph is essentially why Jen went to bed angry. Here’s hoping she’s feeling a little more charitable by the time we record our podcast.

Notes and Notions:

  • Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse hinted that the end of this Season 5 finale would be like the end of the Season 1 finale, and it was. Just as we saw nothing at the bottom of the hatch after Locke finally blew it open, we saw nothing after the bright white flash of Jughead. It’s a cliffhanger in only the faintest sense of the word. No tangible piece of what may come in Season 6 beyond “they’re coming.”
  • If the “what’s in the box” teases weren’t enough, what’s the deal with Hurley’s guitar case? We know Jacob gave it to him, which is great, but… really? Will we just not know? Or will it be blasted into 2007 alongside Hurley to taunt us in Season 6?
  • When Juliet said, “Live together, die alone,” didn’t you want to punch her in the face?
  • Juliet’s death was wrenching, but probably would’ve been moreso if she hadn’t essentially dumped Sawyer two scenes earlier. It doesn’t look good for Sayid, either. And while it was good to see Phil get skewered, I really felt Sawyer deserved to have his death under his belt, rather than a random pipe.
  • I’m not sure whether Jacob’s visits with all our characters were meant to direct them to their fates or change them. They made a point of showing him physically touch each of them, tapping Kate on the nose, holding young Sawyer’s hand a moment when handing him a pen. But it seems odd that Jacob helps revive Locke after falling from a high rise, but doesn’t do much more than give Jack an Apollo Bar.
  • I really liked how Rose and Bernard were handled, even if I’m pretty sure this is the last we’ll see of them (beyond perhaps more explicit confirmation that they’re the “Adam and Eve” skeletons from Season 1). Their dismay at being found was hilarious. They got the lives they always wanted, they retired from the cycle of violence, and they’re happy to die as long as they’re together. Aww…
  • We saw Vincent, too, but he’s now a mystery to me. If he survives the hydrogen bomb blast in 1977, he’s not likely to still be around in 2007. Unless he’s thrown through time along with Jack and friends. I can’t think of any other way Vincent makes it to the end of Season 6, as the creators seem to suggest he will.
  • I liked how Bram called Frank a “yahoo.” Since it turned out that Frank was only pretending to be unconscious, I would’ve enjoyed having him pop up to respond to the word like he did in Season 4. He also got the great line, “In my experience the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.”
  • Talk about writing themselves out of a corner. Jughead already shrunk by several feet between “Jughead” and “Follow the Leader.” But after talking so much about its size and weight, turns out all we need is the core, which conveniently fits in a backpack. Now we can walk it over to the Swan!
  • Some of the flashbacks were so short, and linked so plainly to the scenes that followed, I would’ve rather not seen them. Juliet’s parents got divorced, so that’s why she dumps Sawyer! Sayid watched Nadia die in the street, so that’s why he’s ready to die after being shot! Jacob recruited Ilana, and Jacob put Hurley on Ajira 316! It felt off.
  • When Locke was thrown through the window, didn’t he bring a cascade of broken glass with him? The way he drops, singularly, with a thud before Jacob walks up seemed a bit strange. And were they suggesting Jacob saved Sayid’s life by pulling him back off the street?
  • I can forgive Miles’ anvilicious “what if this causes the incident” epiphany because he also had the great line after Jack said the plan is not to go back in time. “Right, because that would be ridiculous.”
  • Snarky Ben is fun. “I’m a Pisces.” Or, “I lied. It’s what I do.” Or when Sun asks Ben if he expects her to believe he doesn’t know about the statue. “Not really.”
  • I liked that Sun found Charlie’s Drive Shaft ring in Aaron’s old crib, and that Charlie was mentioned in Jacob’s conversation with Hurley (along with Libby). Interesting how some long lost characters still get shoutouts, while many others don’t.
  • Book: “Everything that Rises must Converge” by Flannery O’Connor. Interestingly, Jen’s working her way through an anthology of O’Connor short stories right now.
  • Locations: Too many to list completely. Sun and Jin got married at the Byodo-In Temple in Kaneohe. Locke fell out of the Waikiki Landmark highrise on Kalakaua Avenue in Waikiki. Young Kate shoplifted from a small store near Haleiwa (the name escapes me at the moment, but we mentioned it on our podcast). Young Sawyer’s funeral was at a church in Ewa Villages. Hurley was released from the Oahu Community Correctional Center on Dillingham Blvd. Nadia was killed at the corner of Auahi and Kamani streets off Ward.

What did you think? Comment below, call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127, or e-mail us at

456 Responses to “Next: “The Incident” (Episode 5-16/17)”

  1. Sawyerslilsassafras says:

    Loved this episode!! Favorite part was Sawyer kicking Jack’s butt!!!! Jack’s boo-hooing over Kate was completely ridiculous. I never bought the Juliet and Sawyer relationship from the start and thought her jealousy was spot on because I think he WOULD have stayed with Juliet even though in his heart, he wants Kate! And Jules knew that… That aside, it was an awesome episode!! Now for season 6, I am hoping for Jack to be on a “real” mission, (please no Jate!!!) and am looking forward to more Jacob / “not Locke” stuff…
    P.S. – am I the only one who thinks Jacob is fine??????

  2. BohoTeacher says:

    This is all so incredible I read every comment and listened to every one of your podcasts for this season. Let me tell you the reason why. My husband and I have not had cable or broadcast television in over 6 years. We’re not Luddites or snobs–we just hate commercial television and find it not relaxing and mostly a vast wasteland. We rent Netflix and enjoy the shows we like without commercial interruption and packaged in convenient seasonal groupings. About 6 months ago we discovered Lost. We watched each season in its entirety and after we finished Season 4 we were dying to know more. That’s when I happened upon your podcast on iTunes. I listen to you regularly now, as you are my only source of Lost info. I’ve been tempted to get cable just to watch Lost, but haven’t quite gotten there yet. I just want to thank you for your podcast and tell you how much I’ve enjoyed (and needed) it over these past few months as my only Lost fix. I now cannot wait till Dec. 8 (Release date for Season 5 DVD). I’ll be watching Season 3 along with you guys when you start back up over the summer after your hiatus…and, of course, I’ll be listening to you for Season 6.

  3. Connie in Alaska says:

    Yikes! You leave home for four days and what happens? 342 posts!!! Oh well, I’ve got eight months or so…that ought to be just enough time to get through them all.

  4. Technerd says:

    Why not watch it online on or via iTunes rather than wait for the DVDs ?

  5. Yann From France says:

    One big question that I can’t (and probably will never due to the way they handled the writing lattely) understand: The Pearl Orientation Video is from 1980, Pierre Chang has both his arms! And we don’t know why people kept filling forms on what happened to the station so that it could be dumped in the jungle.
    Other questions which are not minors (and even the biggest mistories at the beginning of the show… but totally disepeared now):
    Is Walt role ever going to be explained?
    How can the Black Rock end up in the middle of the jungle while it was swimming ashore?
    4 8 15 16 23 42 anyone?
    On behalf of the DeGroots and Alvar Hanso?
    Quarantine? Vaccine?
    The others marching without a noise with teddybear hanged with a sting?
    The others taking prisonners and then shown going ok but strangly acting?
    The mark put by the others on Juliette??
    What happened to Horace exwife who showed student about the volcanic activities?
    The “truce” was broken when the alarm sounded during this course? Sawyer took care of it?

    I mean… this show has only 5seasons! It likes to keep us in the dark not knowing what is going on… but by pushing mysteries over mysteries it seems that a lot of BIG issues will never be addressed. And when I look at the last 2seasons: bringing more people to the Island and having losties going back in time playing Return To The Future… you know what, I was ok about it until the official podcast of this week: the Comicon video is fake, sorry. We had an idea but couldn’t make it happen. So it clearly means: we are writing this as it goes along, teasing you for 6months about something that was supposed to be big but was just a blopper. If they can’t remain focus over 6months how could they ever be coherent toward what happened 5years ago!

    Really looking forward to next season so… knowing the show is good but went a bit “a la X-Files”. The show is good but the mythology is over the place.

    Mustache Locke is probably from an other Terry O’Quinn work… like in this exemple with Chau: JAG

    @ Jonathan from Brooklyn
    Love the idea! With a future Desmond who could interact with the other losties back to life…

  6. Chuck from Des Moines says:

    In the scene where they are removing the core from Jughead, Richard Alpert expresses his concern to Eloise that when they originally brought Jughead down below it was emitting radiation, saying “you’re pregnant!”. To which Eloise replies “Which is exactly why we have to see this through”.

    To me, her comment implies that the pregnancy problems already exist on the island well before the incident. Further evidence of this is that the statue appears to be “Tarawet”, which was the Egyptian deity of protection in childbirth.

    Therefore it appears to me that the pregnancy problems have been around on the island for a long, long time, and were not caused by the incident as some have theorized.

    I really loved the ending … especially Jacob’s last word’s before he was kicked into the fire by his adversary after being stabbed by Ben … “They’re coming”. That means no death by the explosion, and a 30 year flash-forward is in store for our losties! And that eye at the very end after the Thud … was definitely Kate’s.

  7. Alex from Greece says:

    My nationality further encourages me to examine Jacob’s Homeric quotes and their context:

    Odysseus’ last stop before arriving back to his homeland Ithaca, was Scherie island (the Phoenician people used to live there). He swims ashore on the island where, naked and exhausted, he hides in a pile of leaves and falls asleep. Next morning, awakened by the laughter of girls, he sees the young Nausicaa, who has gone to the seashore with her maids to wash clothes. He appeals to her for help.

    The quote at Jacob’s place in the beginning of the episode is a quote taken from that exact part, where he tries to appeal to Nausicaa for help: “may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires” (greek:[σοὶ δὲ] θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς,)

    Quotes found by Stubble on 1st quarter of this page,source also verified by myself.

    -Looking forward to the podcast!

  8. Stubble says:

    @Mark in Omaha

    Jacob respects people’s free will. It was Nadia’s choice to look for her sunglasses while crossing an LA street, thus being oblivious to the car that violated the pedestrian green light.

  9. Stubble says:

    @Alex from Greece.

    Actually the Phaeacians not the Phoenicians lived in Scherie. I agree with all the rest.

  10. Alex from Greece says:


    You’re right, Phaecians / Φαίακες is correct. Thanks for pointing it out. Interestingly it’s the name of a municipality in Corfu island, quite popular as a holiday destination. The British love partying there too.

  11. Debbie in VA says:

    Really enjoyed the finale. It had everything; fighting, adventure, gunfights, deception, surprise, torturous deaths, two Lockes, Rose-Bernard & Vincent, good/evil, explosions, brigh flashing light and a whole new game. And, so many more questions…Were all the “ghosts” who appeared to our losties (Charlie, Christian, Claire) just “man #2 in disguise? If so, most of our people have been touched by both the good/evil men.

    Next season, I believe – The bright white light was flashing them back to 2007 (“They are coming.”). Unfortunately, our John Locke is DEAD but the actor will remain. Jack, who now has both science and faith, will step into old John Lockes roll on the island. Jacob saved Sayid from getting hit because Sayid had proven his good heart on the island.

    Many questions remain – What’s in the guitar case? Did they change the past or just cause it? Will we see Desmond and Penny again? Is this all just a game? Will we find out how Daniel had in his position the completed journal? Will Kate be pregnant with Jack’s baby? Is Claire still alive? Is Frank correct about “good guys”? Is Jacob the “good guy?

  12. TVSciFi says:

    I think Jacob might be the evil one. Nadia wouldn’t have been hit had he not stopped Sayid, Nadia stopped in the middle of street waiting for Sayid.
    Kate got away with shop lifting and that set her on her life of crime.
    Jacob encourage Sawyer to finish his letter.
    He brought Locke back to life just so he could be used some more as patsy.
    Not sure how his giving Jack an Apollo bar changed anything, but maybe he became addicted to them 😉

  13. Effie says:

    TVSCIFI–interesting idea about Jacob possibly being the evil one.
    Was there any mention in the show about Jacob visiting other crash survivors such as Rose and Bernard, Claire, Shannon and Boone, etc.?

  14. Mark in Omaha says:

    @ Stubble

    I understand the idea of free will in LOST, and I agree with that. However, in this case, I’m not sure it applies. Nadia didn’t “choose” to get hit by a car, no more than Locke “chose” to be pushed out of a 12-story window. In one case, Jacob turns a blind eye, in the other he brings someone back to life with a touch of his hand.

    I don’t think Jacob is the bad guy. In fact, he’s obviously a Christ-like figure, but I just didn’t understand this scene. I’m willing to accept it as a mystery of the divine, and Jacob knows best.

  15. MLE in Colorado says:

    @tvscifi That is what I have been getting at- I don’t think what he did was necessarily “good”… certainly self serving whether he was true Jacob or antijacob- but why would anti-jacob need to dress like Jacob in the real world? He doesn’t need to disguise himself which makes me think he is the real Jacob…I do think this is where the Red Herring I mentioned might fit…

    I like what everyone has been saying about the playing out of two “Gods” using humans as their “pawns” it reminds me of that Pulitzer prize winning play “J.B.” where the two Circus guys play God and Satan and play with a Man named J.B.- its a take off from the story of JOB in the bible. That opening scene where white shirt and dark shirt are interacting and they seem very modern day- yet there is a slave ship rolling in- reminded me of this play set in modern times with a very old story being told.

  16. MLE in Colorado says:

    @Yann from France- I love your list of unanswered questions- I think we all have several of these that seem like story plots that may just die with that story plot and never move forward. Good list- I am going to try and think of some other unanswered questions that may never be answered in one final scene…one of my biggest questions is why was Walt soaking wet and talking backwards???

    @everyone…yes I could have posted these two together…but if we have a goal of 500 posts by podcast time we better keep posting!! 🙂

  17. Rich in Cleveland says:

    @TV Sci Fi
    I think Jacob’s actions are designed to put our characters on the path they need to follow and not spare them the struggle they need to grow. This goes all the way back to Locke’s parable of the moth which Sawyer reiterates this season. Sayid tried to change with his humanitarian mission in Costa Rica, but he again made the choice to obey his nature and attempt to kill young Ben. And as MLE points out with her allusion to Job or Desmond points out in his discussion of the story of Abraham and Isaac, God often puts us through some brutal ordeals without any better explanation than that is what is demanded.

    You could see the hate in the Dark Player’s heart right from the start and he followed through with his malicious desire to kill Jacob. Jacob expressed optimism for humanity, AJ only expressed contempt. I’m going to go with the obvious in this instance and define Jacob as “good.”

  18. John Harvey says:

    @Yann from France – I agree with you about the writer’s just making this up as they go along.

    I went back and watched “walkabout” and in that episode, John Locke’s supposed girlfriend appears to be some kind of “call girl” or “phone sex operator” who tells John if he keeps calling, she’ll have to charge him. In a the subsequent seasons, they portray her as more of a real girlfriend.

    Reminds me of the episode about Ben forgetting everything after Richard takes him into the temple. The writers are reactive, not proactive. I’m sure when they made up Jacob, they had no idea what they were going to do next. Makes the show more soap opera-ish and less of a consistent body of work.

    Its disappointing to know that the concepts and story lines are not better well thought out. Oh Well, we have already invested our time into the show. I mean, we are all still watching after the Island disappeared, right?…its a good thing there is only one season left.

  19. Ryan says:

    John Harvey: Helen was really Locke’s girlfriend, whom he drove away with his obsession with his father. He subsequently began calling a phone sex line and calling the woman on the other end Helen, presumably because he missed her and wanted to pretend they were still in a relationship. See Lostpedia:

    I’d like to say we still don’t know what it is Ben doesn’t remember as a result of his revival at the Temple. After all, when he woke up, he still remembered he didn’t want to go back to his dad. We’ll have to see post “I shot Ben” Sayid and Ben interact again to see if they’re saying he indeed forgot all the circumstances that brought him to the Others.

  20. Mark in Omaha says:

    I think it’s pretty safe to say that LOST is a big melting pot of egyptian/greek mythos and Judaic/Christian theology. There have been many compelling arguments that the island is Atlantis; I’ve always believed it was Eden. Could it be both? I mentioned the Sobek/Apep connection before, and I do think that’s what’s going on here, but at the same time, Jacob is filling a messianic role. We first see him fishing and giving a “fishers of men” speech. We last see him sacrificing himself (does anyone really think that he didn’t already know that Ben — our Judas — was on his way to kill him?). And before his death, Richard describes him as, “He who will save us all” — a direct correlation with the biblical Christ-like theme of salvation. In season 6, I have no doubt we’ll see him live again — along with the real Locke — just in time to save everyone.

    On the other hand, we have the evil Non-Locke character, who as Apep has the ability to appear as a void or dark snake. In the Judaic/Christian telling of Eden, the devil appears as a beguiling snake. Smokie?

  21. Mark in Omaha says:

    I think it was Stubble who wrote that Non-Locke’s shoes will be an important reveal to Jack in season 6. I love that idea! Very clever.

  22. DocJKM says:

    To all out there: I think most of us realize we are fortunately enjoying one of the more momentous moments in television history, and cognizant of it as it goes on. Many, like me, are broadcast TV idots, as we long ago gave up on the medium, were drawn in by early season DVD’s, watched the episodes, and just gave in and got the ol’ TV fired up to watch… TV. (Thank Jacob for DVR’s-both for the rewatching and commercial cutting).

    We have something in Lost that merits the discussions, blogs, theories, and (of course) the great Renn, or Jyan, and their podcast. Something so good that human nature in us all makes us long for perfection, something that will ultimately transcend even our hopes for the show. After all, wasn’t the early trademark of the show to give us reasonable expectations, then pull out the rug, consistently? In so doing, give us more than we expected? Production values up there with feature films, actors worth watching, and script/story material that kept us entranced; all have been there for us for five years worth. And consider it even more meritorious given the abysmal state TV in general has stumbled into.

    Yes, we are fortunate. Yet quibbles should be part of this discussion. For all the wonderment we enjoy, seems to me many of us are very educated and capable people with professions and responsibilities, and important lives. Thus, the time given to this show is significant on several levels. Don’t we have something(s) better to do? I sure as hell hope not, and challenge the writers with that responsibility.

    This season- the whole Kate episode. Putrid, in more ways than I have room to discuss. Now, the introduction of Gods? Darleton, and their writers have shouldered a colossal responsibility- ie to pull this off without stumbling embarrassingly, leaving us embarrassed to boot. I am rooting heartily for them. While I, and all of us, salute what Lost has been, and become, let us recognize the force it has been in our lives and pray we do not look back in 20 years with the anti-pride reserved for those of us who agonized over ‘who shot JR’.

    Long live Lost, Locke, Ben, and yes (Knives) Sayid!


  23. DocJKM says:

    One addition- can you think of something more convincingly evil to us Lost-lovers than to steal John Locke? I, for one, will be rooting for this Black One to get his really bad.

    Jacob has to be good, if this is in fact a dichotomous relationship.

    Just me.

  24. christy in TX says:

    @Stubble – love the point about the shoes – I totally forgot about that.

    @Moriah – About Miss Hawking’s fear of what would happen should some of the O6 not make it back to the island: I think she had to know that SOME of them would be going back to 1977, because we now know that she met Jack, Kate, and Sayid back then. Perhaps she did not know the fate of the ones that did not already appear in her past, or maybe she assumed they were all there.

    @TVSciFi – I was thinking along the same lines of Jacob perhaps being evil. Or at least, not necessarily GOOD. I don’t know if either is evil, but we definitely don’t know if either are good yet. Sure, there are strong suggestions that Jacob is THE Jacob, but that Jacob is not necessarily pious. Maybe Jacob’s nemisis has a good reason to want to kill Jacob. I mean, how many of us were kind of hoping the Smoke Monster would thrash Ben’s body around the cavern? How many wanted Locke’s Dad killed? With the little we know about them it is hardly enough to determine if the nemesis is evil just because he wanted to kill Jacob, who happened to say he would be waiting for him when he found the loophole.
    Perhaps they have the ability to manipulate space and time, via the island and it’s properties, and they are trying to gauge the goodness of mankind by bringing them to the island and seeing what happens between the people, but why would they need to do that on the island when they can apparently leave the island and see for themselves in the rest of the world how mankind is progressing?

  25. MLE in Colorado says:

    @docJkm “or all the wonderment we enjoy, seems to me many of us are very educated and capable people with professions and responsibilities, and important lives. Thus, the time given to this show is significant on several levels. Don’t we have something(s) better to do? I sure as hell hope not, and challenge the writers with that responsibility.”

    I love this because I often wonder what each person does when they are not watching Lost…is Connie in Alaska a Teacher? Is Rich in Cleveland a Preacher? We know that Knives works at the in and out Burger on Satna Monica Blvd…

    Anyway- I agree with you that – we are looking for everything to be a perfect match and make perfect sense- and its just not possible- for one, my Husband asked this AM “Who do you think we will see next season?” and he was trying to make friendly “Lost conversation” and my response was nothing short of snippy…”We will see whoever has it in their contract to fly to HI and make an appearance…” When- in reality- I really hope we see everyone again- perhaps looping back on themselves….but I agree- we may have seen the last of Rose and Bernard…but I do think Charlie will reunite with that guitar case…and I am hoping still- we will see Claire get on that Dorothy and the hot air balloon…

    (I really do think we will easily hit 500 posts by Monday…)

  26. Knives Monroe says:

    Hey MLE!!!

    I resemble that remark 😛

  27. Knives Monroe says:


    I just want to personally thank Ryan and Jen and everyone that writes on this blog very much. Sure we may not have LOST for an other 8 hard months, but we have our community, and I think I speak for everyone when I say that this community will certainly and reluctantly speed up the time. Pun proudly intended.

    Heres to hopefully making it to 500 Posts.


  28. George McDonald says:

    I love MLE! She knows everything about the show. For some reason, she figures out everything before me. Her brain is probably so big, it’s not even funny!


  29. Zhami says:

    @Mark in Vienna — great thoughts! I disagree though about Jughead – the core isn’t the fissile atomic bomb, that has to surround the fusion core and compress it. Hence, I say that no bomb exploded.

    @Yann From France — 4 8 15 16 23 42 => valenzetti

    @Stubble — not really Nadia’s free will to stop in the street, likely caused by realizing that Sayid wasn’t with her. Jacob is an influencer, his words about choice are crafty and twisted, but look at the details, and his interventions lead the Losties he meets toward their “destiny” (destiny being defined with hindsight).

    I believe the Loophole is Faraday’s discovery of time travel by… telling himself how to do it by having Desmond visit him… the biggest time loop we’ve seen.

    Except there are no other time lops 🙂 There apparently are two compasses, unless the major visual distinction between them is a continuity error. And the Lock-tells-Richard-tells-Locke loop is because one of those Locke’s wasn’t John Locke.

    Although I don’t believe the white-shirt & black-shirt guys who start the ep are supposed to be taken literally as Jacob and Esau, the analogy is fitting, and so until he gets another name, I’ll call them by those names.

    @TVSciFi “If Lost turns out to be two guys playing a video game, I’ll be very disappointed.” clearly two players, if not two sides. A game? – sure, why not. “I’ want to kill you” — common parlance in a game. I’ve been thinking this for quite a while, and wouldn’t be surprised, although I know most fans would HATE that ending. But, can you come up with ANY satisfying ending at this point? Heaven? Purgatory? A dream? The plane land in L.A.? Jack wakes up from a dream? The plane is really in the bottom of the sea, and they’re all dead? Jacob and Esau sitting beside the statue and some futuristic flying saucer descends, and Esau says: “It’s always the same” ? I can’t think of an ending that will close the story AND satisfy the fans. The expectations on the shoulders of Carlton and Damen are staggeringly huge. Now, what I do think is that their creative leeway is further limited by the fact that TPTB (the money behind the show) will demand an ending conducive to either television spinoffs or movie sequels.

    Many other thoughts of mine here:

  30. Bonita in Atlanta says:

    @Yann in France,
    And what about all the kids from 816 and othersville?

  31. Moriah says:

    @christy in TX –

    Good point about Eloise knowing that some of them must have ended up in 1977. I guess I’ll have to backtrack in terms of what side Eloise is on. It’s hard to tell how she feels about being able to change time. In 1977 after she kills her son, it’s clear that she desperately hopes she can change time. Later (but earlier for us) we see that she tells Desmond that it doesn’t matter what you do … fate has a way of course correcting. Her involvement in trying to get everyone who left the island back to the island seems to me that she still believes in destiny/fate but maybe that she now recognizes the importance of personal choice/free will of those who need to return? Does that make sense? Anyway, I still like the idea of Walt, Aaron, Jin Yong and Desmond having to return in order for Jacob to regain power and for light to triumph of darkness. This would be one time when Malcolm David Kelley being older now than the character Walt could really help out. They’d be able to say (and perhaps show, a little) that darkness controls for a certain amount of time … maybe only 5 or so years to make Malcolm David Kelley match the age of Walt … or a couple more so that Malcolm David Kelley is playing a little older than he actually is. They would then be able to cast young children, about Walt’s age when he first came to the island, to play Aaron and Ji Yong and help Jacob overcome darkness. That clearly assumes a lot and I’m very aware that they may take another direction but that’s an option I think I’d be happy with.

    As to the conversation about the writers’ making it up as they go along, I feel like Damon and Carlton did a good job of answering the Comic Con video issue. I’m still annoyed that the video isn’t canon and that it didn’t work out as they hoped but by the nature of a television show and all the different components involved in making it work, I’m not too surprised that some things that are planned in advance don’t always pan out. Damon and Carlton were smart to point out that JK Rowling was able to do whatever she wanted with her world without having to worry about what a network wanted out of one of their biggest money makers. If Lost were a book series and not a TV show, I would not be at all surprised if we liked it much more because they things the creators planned would be more likely to follow through to the end. Even with a book, though, the creative process has to allow for somethings to change but at least you don’t have to adjust to actors wanting to leave or sweeps or possibly being cancelled. I personally trust that while the writers may have had to change how we get there, they are still telling the same story with the same themes and lessons that we’d get regardless of all the variables they’ve had to deal with; that despite having to make changes along the way, they have been able to “course correct” and get us to the same end result that they’ve planned for a long time.

  32. Moriah says:

    Wow, just listened to Michael Emerson on the Official Lost podcast. If you haven’t listened yet, I’d definitely check it out.

    I thought it was first of all pretty interesting to learn that the script at least says that the bomb actually did go off. So the white light may have been a flash for the Losties to time travel but even if that’s the case, the bomb did go off. Still leaves plenty of other options of the implications of the bomb going off but I’m still of the belief that whatever happened, happened. The most interesting thing will be how/where/when the time travelers end up.

    I also really liked his comparison of Jacob as another example of bad parenting. I personally hope that we find out that Jacob, while seeming detached as Ben said, had to do that in order to allow “his children” free will. Almost like the opposite detachment we see out of Eloise. She is detached because she knows she is *directing* her son on a path that leads to her killing him. Jacob is detached because he knows that his children (if he really is God) must make their own choices in order to grow and the only way that can happen is to remain detached. It’s funny, I was having a similar conversation with my brother just today … telling him that I liked the casting of Jacob because the actor played the role very detached, which is what I’d imagine any deity who believes in free-will would have to be, while at the same time wanting to comfort the pain humans feel.

  33. Robert A. Jones says:

    Ryan and Jen,
    There was an episode of Lost in season three in which Juliet had handcuffed kate (at Ben’s Request) to herself and they were being chased by the smoke monster in the jungle. They both hid in the “bamboo shoot” tree (for lack of better term) and waited for “smokey” to pass. Smokey found them in the tree and look at each of them. When he looked at Kate he glanced at her for a moment and then he looked at Juliet. When he looked at Juliet, the smoke monsters view of her turned to a pure white light, just like the moment after she set the bomb off in the incident. When smokey saw juliet transform into white light he ran away from them in a state of panic. Could it be that Juliet setting off the Nuclear Bomb in the future caused Smokey to fear her in the past, and if so why?



  34. It appears the anti-Jacob can assume the appearance of bodies which are dead. This could be a reason why the Others want to account for the bodies of their own dead – to prevent the ant-Jacob from appearing to be that person and possibly ascending the position of Leader.

  35. Dave in AL says:

    @DocJKM – well put. Lost is more than just a show, it is a very sublime and involved experience. Just think, without the podcasts/internet/Comic Con/DVR/ etc. – it just becomes a really good show.

    I’ve got one thing I have to nitpick on that a lot of people have made comments on (even Jack on the show), that if events can be changed that flight 815 will make it to LA. 815 will never make it to LA because it turned around. Even if the Losties were able to affect the future and the crash is prevented, the plane will still turn around because of mechanical problems. Preventing the crash will not get them to LA, only back to Sydney. If the goal is to arrive at LA, you have to change the one key event that prevented that from happening to begin with, the plane turning around, which was caused by the mechanical problem (the butterfly effect notwithstanding mind you).

    The whole focus of Faraday, Jack, et al, was to stop the event that caused the airplane to crash on the island. If they were actually to succeed, the plane continues to Sydney, a far different outcome than arriving in LA as originally planned. Who knows, maybe the plane ends up crashing anyway and everyone dies as a result. How’s that for the universe course correcting?

    Although a minor point in the grandiose scheme of the story, I just needed to get that out of my system.

  36. Stubble says:

    @Mark in Omaha

    It wasn’t Nadia’s free will to be hit by the car (she obviously didn’t want to die), but it was her free will to cross the street while looking in her bag for her sunglasses. Actions have consequences, and Jacob didn’t protect Nadia from the consequences of her actions. He did protect Sayid, however, from being the unwilling victim of his wife’s distraction, and he saved Locke from being the unwilling victim of his father’s malice.

    Also, I don’t think that Nadia turning around had anything to do with her being hit, as her whole turn took less than 1sec, and the impact was unavoidable at that point.

    It’s also fascinating that he respects Sayid’s free will even as he saves him. He doesn’t grab him to stop him from crossing the street. He asks: “could you help me?”, i.e., giving him a choice. Sayid could easily say “I’m not from LA” or “I’m in a hurry” and walk into the street. He only touches Sayid after the car has hit.

  37. Yann From France says:

    @Zhami : Yes and what about the Valenzetti equation? Is it canon? Are the losties doing something to change the equation? Is the atomic bomb allowed exactly that and thus a loophole in the equation and the death of Jacob who despite his “free will talk” is the keeper of the destiny?
    But I have to admit of course the numbers will get explained!

    @Bonita: If they can’t reproduce on the island, I guess as soon as they have the opportunity to take kids they do that (why not do that of island? who knows) and the train them in the jungle leading them to call stars “Ursa Theodoris” and walking with teddy bear while grown ups… But will they ever adress that?

    @Morhia: Harry Potter answered all the questions through the 6 books. I am really starting to fear that the most important questions of the first 2seasons will just be overlooked to answer questions asked during the last 3seasons…

    @Dave in AL: Sure the show is really great, well writen and directed, full of references and allow for a lot of imagination and discution. But the X-Files was like that, and I am sure that if the Internet community had been bigger and if the podcast had existed there would have been a lot of them I guess.

    My real problem now is: with THAT many questions left unanswered and still new ones coming. How can we find a good theory if we don’t know what datas we should take into account and thus… what the point of a podcast and others if we reflect on bad datas?
    So the journey is great but we’d better not try to guess anything because they like to do “game changing” things while not answering the questions asked 3years ago.

    @MLE in Colorado: Talking about datas and theories… I am a PhD Student in chemistry.

    Yet: Love the show, love the podcast, looking forward for the replies on the blog… Optimism is a state of mind I guess! 😀

  38. Al from Maryland says:

    I posted my initial reaction above. It was not that positive! But it’s been a few days and I’ve been mulling things over a lot. Watched it again too. I dont hate it so bad now 🙂

    Perhaps Jacob (as a risen-obiwan) may yet resurrect Locke again? that’d be nice. ONe reason i was so unhappy with the show was Locke really being dead.

    Here’s a thought I haven’t seen yet:

    Jacob, AntiJacob — black and white living in a continual struggle…
    Rose, Bernard — black and white living in back to nature, harmonal peace.

    Wonder if thats a coincidence or actually meaningful. Maybe we’re not done with Rose and Bernard after all?

  39. Mark B says:

    @Whoever was saying about not enough answers,
    A work around for this would be that they have a one hour special with Damon and Carlton simply answering all the unanswered questions. However I suspect a large number of questions, including some major ones, will remain unanswered. This will leave the door open for many hours of speculation as well as fan-fiction.

  40. John Harvey says:

    @ Ryan – Thanks for the clarification on Helen…so I can have some confidence in watching the older episodes and feeling good about things matching up.

  41. Michael from dublin says:

    I have just re-watched the finale , and i still cant like it , it seems like it was badly put together my main gripes are

    – Jacobs convenient visits to all of the younger 815ers reeked of filler desperation , all so next season everyone can say in synchronous OMG ! He was Jacob all along

    – the locke fall from the window looked very bad and rivalled the departure of the galaga

    – Annoyed that juliet got pushed down a well like little Timmy when her usefulness was over

    I am actually thinking will i bother giving lost 720 minutes of my life when it airs again next year

    anyway i hope i really get over this by next year

    Love the podcast


  42. Moriah says:

    @Yann From France –

    I disagree that JK Rowling answered *every* question by the end of the 7th book but even if she had, it was kinda my point that the book format makes it much easier to answer the questions. Due to the nature of the TV medium, there are a lot more outside influences that impact what the writers’ of the show are able to do. For example, if they had intended for Rousseau’s character to make it into season 6 and even to survive the entire series then they had to change things up once the actress playing Rousseau (Mira Furlan) decided she wanted to leave the show. (that was just an “for instance” … I’ve never heard them say they had other plans for Rousseau.)

    I do see what you’re saying in terms of theorizing but I think that’d be true no matter what. People in the Harry Potter fandom thought it was going to be very important to know more about what happened to Harry the night his parents were killed and had all kinds of theories about the portraits conveying messages to Dumbledore that evening but, in the end, we didn’t find out that much more in the final book so those theories turned out for naught … in a sense. They are still important, in my opinion. One reason that some writers refuse to answer *all* the questions is so that readers can decide for themselves what may or may not have happened with those unanswered questions. I think Damon and Carlton will probably be able to answer more once Lost is over but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some things they’re simply going to leave to the audience to decide. As Mark B said, it’ll allow us to speculate and discuss our thoughts on the possible answers to unanswered questions.

  43. Yann From France says:

    @Mark B and Moria: If they answer about the “virus/vaccine/quarentine” (even if it’s fake), the pearl and everything that went there, the DeGroots and Hanso Valenzetti equation (and I kind like my theorie that it was by changing that that you have the loophole and the killing of Jacob), the role of Walt (I guess he is the most belivalble “Candidate” for the reincarnation of Jacob… ether him or Aaron having been born on Island while it was not possible)

    If they just talk about that I will be more than happy!
    Don’t take it on me guys, I AM making a point giving arguments on a subject I also love but I just feel strange that the biggest questions of the first 2seasons are now… well… nothing?

  44. Jo in Wales says:

    Hi Guys, I loved this episode, I’m sad to read that so many of you were disappointed, keep the faith! I just wanted to mention that something about this story reminds me of the movie Jason and the Argonauts. I can’t quite put my finger on what it is, I haven’t seen the movie since I was a kid. I remembered something about Jason being used as a pawn by the gods, so I looked up the synopsis on Wikipedia and found this entry:

    ‘Jason, like all mortals, is unknowingly a piece in the game which the gods play against each other. This is an accurate portrayal of Greek theology and rarely found in any modern medium.’

    What do you all think? It just rang a bell with me, especially the first scene with Jacob and ‘Esau’ on the beach.

  45. Mario From Houston says:

    The Anti Jacob has to have been Eko!

    Right before Eko is killed, “Yemi” asks Eko, “why do you speak to me as if I was your brother?”. Eko then responds “who are you?”… That is enough of a hint for me!

  46. iwantdesmondshair says:

    Yann, I expressed the same feelings several times in the forum about the incident. I feel like the writers have completely jumped ship on the foundations of the show.

    I’m so sad because it appears my favorite long times aspects of the show will not play any role in the outcome, sigh

  47. iwantdesmondshair says:

    @Moriah, I disagree with you about why we don’t have a “holy crap” ending. Season 3 was so amazing because you never really knew where the flashbacks and flash forwards were in the overall time line of the show.

    The reason non of this season has been shocking (especially the finale) is because we are being spoon fed info, I hate the info is now being presented to us. The whole “3 years ago” “30 years later” stuff is just horrible and dumbs down the show.

  48. Jo in Wales says:

    Nobody seems to have mentioned ‘Bad Twin’. Seems the clues were there all along!

  49. Eva in Estonia says:

    @ Moriah

    To quote you –

    “One reason that some writers refuse to answer *all* the questions is so that readers can decide for themselves what may or may not have happened.”

    I absolutely agree. This is what really draws us watching and thinking. Honestly, I don’t mind about all the unanswered questions that much. Lost will be timeless and watchable even in 20 years, because the viewer’s involvement in the show is what makes it worthwhile.

    Brain food!!

  50. Thom Stanley says:

    If Jacob is the reason for so many things, does his death begin to negate those things? i.e. Does Richard Alpert begin to age rapidly a la Dorian Gray?

    And… I’ve heard a lot of people mention that they believe the smoke monster to be somehow connected to Dark Locke. Yet, Dark Locke is perplexed by Ben’s meeting with smokey and the result of that meeting. I believe smokey is an independent entity that is more the “judge” and Jacob and Dark Lock are merely players and our friends, the pieces.

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