“Things begin to unravel when one of the survivors goes rogue and takes matters into their own hands — risking the lives of everyone on the island.” We probably won’t be able to blog our thoughts on tonight’s episode, so you’ll have to wait for the podcast for our take. But we’re very interested in your thoughts and theories. Please post your comments below, e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com, or call the LostLine and leave a voicemail comment at (808) 356-0127.
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Meta
Silandra-Of course you are right :O) I had forgotten that bit of communication between Sayid and Hurley, but something he heard at the docks made him turn tail and run. Maybe he hadn’t put the final piece of the puzzle in place, and that was that Ben’s final goal was to get him back to the Island along with the other O6. When he heard Kate’s and Ben’s conversation, he washed his hands of the whole thing. Thanks!
Bomir-
Another way of saying it is “The Darma torturer is their version of Sayid”. From Sawyer- “He’s our version of you, Sayid”. So they just made it “He’s our you”. It’s bad English… but funny. Of course I kept thinking people were saying “He’s RU”. I was wondering what RU would mean LOL!!! Then I saw it typed and said “OHhhh”.
Fun with grammar.
Cheers!
MacCutcheon Whiskey….not my choice of drink.
I’ve seen tequila screw with people’s equalibrium, but this stuff, I
will DEFENITLY stay away from. Here’s why:
1. Whidmore insulted Desmond when asking for his daughter’s hand in marrage.
2. Anthony Cooper drank some just before pushing Locke out the window.
3. Charlie used it to get Desmond drunk and he confessed to his “visions”.
4. Sayid let the bounty hunter “get the best of him” after drinking it.
~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~
Hi
After reading many comments on whether Ben is dead or alive i thought i would point out the blindingly obvious clue that Ben isn’t, and can’t be dead as it seems to have been missed by many…
When Jin pulls up and Sayid goes over to talk to him telling Ben to “stay there” We see sayid talking to Jin in a way they obviously know each other. At this point we see the camera flash briefly back to Ben and he can can be seen listening in on their conversation. This is THE moment that Ben starts to realise there is much more going on. It’s ultimatly the 1st moment that Ben starts becoming the all knowing figure we know him as. He will recover and carry on learning from his suspicions, learning the future from those who went back. Sneaking around listening at windows maybe from the cameras he said “can see but can’t hear”
If this wasn’t the case and Ben just died there, there would be NO reason for that camera shot of ben eavesdropping. It’s very clear Ben has to survive. Once he has all his knowledge he “thinks” he needs from them then Ben will enduce the purge so (in his mind) he will be the sole fountain of his knowledge learnt.
Plus there is no end of other reasons stacked in favour of him surviving. anybody remember Bens list in season 2? coincidence it’s the same names that he meets as a kid? i think not.
We can now tick Sayid off the list of the returnee losties as to the purpose and reason the “island” needed them back. He’s done his bit.
Next up we will be able to tick Jack off the list as he will most likley save Ben.
Hurley is back for something connected to the numbers i imagine.
Kate i haven’t got a clue what her purpose or roll is yet.
I also agree with others who noticed that Amy looked very shifty. She was far too keen to have Sayid killed. Fear that he might say something about her and her baby? Is she a Hostile already? I’m not sure yet but something doesn’t add up with her in this episode.
Can’t wait for the podcast. 🙂
Oh, wanted to add one more thing about Amy. I think she’s an Other and was one when we first met her (note her lack of jumpsuit). Perhaps she always was one, and that’s something that the other DI have either forgotten, covered up, or just not told La Fleur and company.
That’s all I have for now. 🙂
“Ding Dong the witch is dead! The witch is dead…the wicked Witch is dead!” Or is he?
(That’s about the only reference to the Wizard of Oz I can make for this episode…)
So- my thought- which echoes some of what has already been said- but we Lost fans do like to hear ourselves think- is that Ben had to die by someone else to be reborn- That Sayid had to kill him- that his purpose was to kill him to he could be “reincarnated” Like the anagram on the side of the “Canton-Rainier” van that Ben was driving around in LA. And that was why Ben had Sayid kill so many people- not to protect his buddies- but to instill that ability and desire in him…and to piss him off as much as possible so when he returns he would hate Ben so much that he would kill him. I say this because the whole episode reeked of that- everything Ben told him about how he was a “killer” made sense when Sayid finally had to come face to face with young Ben- I think Ben was prepping him for this moment for the whole 3 years off the Island. Especially the line to the woman on the plane when he says that Ben is a horrible person because he killed his own daughter, enacted genocide etc etc- this line seemed to be placed perfectly as to give Sayid the reason, desire and will to shoot baby Ben.
I agree with what has been said- that was a powerful scene to watch (a grown man shoot a 12 year old kid point blank)- as I watched, I first said outloud, “Oh no- you aren’t gonna kill Jin are you?” and then he got up and turned and I said (again outloud…) “Not Baby Ben!!!”
My feeling is still that we don’t really know who the wicked witch is…Ben may not be the bad guy- he certainly has done some horrible things- but you wonder if many of those horrible things – somehow- had to be done- for some other purpose.
Rewatched last night “Not in Portland” when Jack has Ben on the Operating table and has the ability at that point to end his life. I feel as if you watch that and it seems that Ben is not only doing everything he can to save his own life but that in that season he is also making sure that his captives don’t meet their demise. Like he knows he needs Kate, Sawyer and Jack to live, and then when they leave he needs to be sure they get back.
It seems like present day people seem to know the past after the past has been altered. So- now 2007 Ben might remember 1977 Sayid? Des didn’t know Faraday until “present day Faraday” met “in the hatch Desmond….”
OK..that’s all…love your show- I tried to listen to another pod cast this week and it was such a joke- the first 15 minutes were four guys trying to figure out what some inane beeping noise was…so again- always come back to Ryan and Jen!
ps…I agree that Amy was suspicious- I think she wanted Sayid Dead because she KNEW he wasn’t a hostile…she was not worried that he wasn’t Dharma- but she wasn’t who SHE was- which is a Hostile/Other…
MLE – gotta agree with you, Ryan and Jen are the best and their podcast gives me on thing to look forward to on Monday mornings. I really enjoy the format of the show and how it is broken up into sections. I don’t listen to the forward cabin because I don’t want spoilers so I like that they put those in a separate part of the podcast.
MLE – I don’t know if you listened to the podcast last summer, but it is really worth going to their archives for the Comic Con podcasts. I hope they can do it this year as well. I really enjoyed it and appreciated that they took the time to share their experience with all their listeners.
I was really getting worried about this episode, right up until the 58-minute mark. It seemed like good information, but nothing really HAPPENED that brought me to the edge of my seat. Then my DVR stopped recording and I missed the ending!!!
Having finally caught up, I am happy. The episode was ‘saved’. I really thought Sayid was going to go after Sawyer. But Ben… wow cool.
So… did Sayid just change time? Does Ben die, or does the island save him? All I can say is that if Ben DOESN’T die, then this episode was a 99% waste of time (as well as portions of prior episodes).
OK maybe I missed this but I would love to hear what other think.
Young Ben told Sayid that he met Richard 4 years before. In that meeting Richard had long hair and was dressed like a Bum. However back in 1955 and when he speaks to Sawyer (1 year after young Ben meets him) his hair is cut and he is dressed in clean clothing. Does this have to do with time travel? Was Richard dressed that way when he first me young Ben to give young Ben a false impression of the Others?
So last night the creators pulled off a major mind freak on the LOST faithful. Taking the action out of context, what happened last night is that a bunch of people watching TV cheered a grown man shooting a 12 year old in the chest. Yes I realize this was not every viewers reaction (or mine), but still…you could imagine plenty of Sayid fans cheering him on…creepy.
Now…how does young Ben survive (and we know he will)?
Ben not dying doesn’t make this episode a waste of time. How can you even say that? The whole point of Sayid shooting Ben is to test what Faraday has been saying. Everyone accepts “whatever happened happened” as if it’s absolutely true. It may very well be, but shouldn’t somebody TRY to see if that rule can be broken? Who better than someone who hasn’t been told?
The official podcast says we’ll see the entire statue this season. I’m going out on a limb right now and saying it’s Desmond. I know, it’s absolutely crazy, but Desmond has to have some twisted way of being brought back into the show. Talk about a waste of time? What was the point of Faraday giving Desmond the message to find his mother? Desmond does so, meets a few of the others, and then takes a hike. Oh, and he very likely beats the snot out of Ben a little later. Wow. Now THAT’S a waste of our time… unless Desmond’s story isn’t over yet. He knows about Ajira Airlines, right? Could he have snuck aboard and not told the others? Could he have taken a boat and travelled the exact same course at the same time, hoping to get to the island in his own way?
Oh, and about Desmond remembering the message so many years later, that’s a problem I haven’t come up with a good answer for yet. I wonder if we might not get a Desmond-centric episode which shows us a condensed series of events in Desmond’s life… as they were changed by Faraday’s message. We might see where events tried to deviate and were course corrected over and over again.
Chris from NY-Maybe the Hostiles are really into hardcore Pirate Days re-enactments, kind of like those who like to re-enact Civil War battles or Medieval Times. ;O)
Oldham will be the author of the brainwashing video Carl was subjected to. Great character !!!
Illana and Caesar work for Ben Linus and Whidmore. Can’t tell who works for whom. At this point, I’d say Illana works for Linus.
Amy is a cutie, but she’s a double-agent. Horace is a dope.
Don’t be ridiculous; Dharma Ben’s not dead. The bullet was reflected by the old “necklace or something metal in his pocket” trick. Maybe a Dharma bulletproof vest?
If a bullet caused Ben’s spinal tumor — wouldn’t have Jack or Juliette seen the bullet in the x-ray?
Terminal pregnancies are caused by residual gas from the purge or radiation from Jughead?
An addendum to the statue theory : Sun or Lapidus also make good candidates for jumping so far back in time since they have a long journey ahead of them. That won’t change the fact that Desmond HAS to be brought back in somehow to make any of his appearances this year relevant.
I have a problem with the writers logic of having Sawyer et al create this lie. They knew that the Darma people were relatively peaceful scientists/open minded thinkers, so why not just tell them the truth? That they are from the future and could prove it by revealing some distant events in world history that would soon be reveled by a check on the outside world. By telling the truth the Losties could forewarn the DI folks of the upcoming genocide and then with the arrival Sayid, Jack, and co. they would have no need for the drama. I think the writers are playing us, and my greatest fear and investment in all this time of watching Lost will come to a concocted conclusion that has nothing to do with the origin of the first show/season. These guys are writing as they go… there is no grand plan!!!
Well at least I always Tivo so as not to be manipulated into watching ABC’s commercials….UGHGH I hate this show so much for making me love it so!!!
Anyone still thinking Ben could be dead only have to read the synopsis of the next week’s episode. It says Kate goes to extreme measures to save Ben’s life when Jack refuses to help. SO, he is not dead!!
Crap, I can’t read all these posts now and I WANT TO..but, and I hope this hasn’t been repeated a gazillion times, I think that Ben was shot (and not killed by Sayid) and his relationships with our other buddies, Jack, Hurley, Sawyer, Juliette, et al in the 70’s, are why they’re ALL there. He remembered them, coveted them for various reasons (for ex: as someone mentioned a childhood crush on Juliette) and brought them to the island-we may learn more about other people (Bernard and Rose) later too. Jack, Kate, Sawyer were on Ben’s ‘list’ and obviously Sayid. He manipulated everyone into returning.
Can’t wait to see how locke and his peeps are doing back on the small island in 2004 (or whenever they are).
Also, think the theory about Ilana being hired by Ben to bring Sayid back is spot on.
Will be back to finish reading later..
Douglas: I also noticed the parallel with Eko’s childhood story, but only superficially. Sayid didn’t do it to protect his brother, he did it just coz. In other words, he was a killer before that incident, suggesting he was just born that way.
What a wonderful ep!
My take is that Ben is who he is not because he is shot in 1977, nor because of years of mis-treatment by Roger ( certainly few abused people go on to become mass murderers — in fact, I’d say there is a negative correlation there). We haven’t yet seen the primal forces that shape Ben Linus. And while he appears deeply calculating and cold, I think he would (if he’d answer honestly, which he wouldn’t), is that he is merely serving some purpose in some larger scheme, one not of his own making, nor of an agenda that is his (he is not selfish, but a missionary and perhaps even a martyr. Oh, and not dead in 1977 after being shot).
Worse for Ben, he is not in control of events. Ben has been surprised many times by events that have come into being in spite of his intentions. In contrast to whatever Big Mission is going on (which he aims to serve), Ben’s radius of control is small and weak. In the end, I expect that we will come to see Ben as trying hard to accomplish something we will all agree with as important and “good” and come to see that Ben has had to do hard things, bad things, to attain that. Yes, I know I am a minute minority.
Without debating the question of timelines, Ben will live (and the wound will lead to his tumor 30 years hence). Most likely he will survive at the hands of Janitor Jack who must reveal surgeon skills to save a boy shot by a Hostile. This is a crucial event which no one has yet mentioned: not only has the truce been violated, but a hostile has killed (or attempted to) an innocent Dharmite. Sayid has set a war in motion. The tribunal in the living room over Sayid’s fate shows the DI folks to be capable of setting out a war party for retribution, or even to purge the island of Hostiles. And if that comes to pass, young Ben Linus will see himself as cause. Perhaps this becomes his trigger issue: his actions lead to events completely contrary to his desires. And forever will he become warpingly twisted on mastering his actions for proper outcomes — and always failing at it.
btw: where is Dr. Chang? I keep being surprised by the latitude “Security” has in determining courses of action. In all the organizations I know, Security reports to, and takes direction from, Management. And Dr. Chang appears to represent Management.
“He’s Our You” — something amiss about Sawyer’s comment regarding Oldham (great, great casting!!!). Oldham is no torturer. Why would Jack say this? Was he trying to instill a sense of urgency in Sayid to fight or to flee? But clearly interrogations have taken place there. Why would the DI need an interrogator? Who else has been tied to that tree and queried? Seems odd to me that it occurs there, even at all. Can’t be that many Hostiles have been captured… and if so, the DI would only need their story once. So, to me the presence of an interrogation site in the jungle by a Castañeda/Leary-ish Shaman is an anomaly that begs a reveal.
Actually, if I were to say there was anyone in the DI who might represent a “he’s our you” of Sayid, it would be… Amy. But then I’d say odds are she’s a Hostile that has infiltrated the DI. And so Ethan’s allegiances are shaped as we come to see. In fact, I’d also say Ethan’s father might likely be a hostile.
Final comment: The exec producers and writers are committed to their art, and the practice of it as craft. They must obey rules of storytelling if their story is to survive in our minds beyond the presentation of the final episode, if Lost is to be called great storymaking and storytelling. In this regard, I agree with a comment read elsewhere that Daniel Farraday serves a literary purpose, his role is as a “reliable narrator” for the revelation of markers that bound and constrain the possibilities, lest the reader/viewer spin out of control. Hence, we can trust the words of Farraday, not because of his character, but because of his role in the narrative. And so: what has happened, happened.
Yet: the paradox remains, for what has happened in 1977 has happened because of what happened in 2007 (Sayid being shaped to hate Ben Linus), then what is happening now in 2009 is happening because of what has (?) happened in 2019.
Peace out.
I agree with MRPEMSTAR. Sawyer acquiesced to torturing Sayid, pretty much voted him off the island, and also pretty much threw him under the figurative Dharma-bus.
I think the writers are possibly setting up for Sawyer getting written out of the show as some sort of emotional retribution for this. Initially I worried that Juliet or Sayid might be killed off, but it seems like the writers are making Sawyer hard to sympathize with.
It must also be the case that young Ben is still alive. I think the writers wanted to show Sayid trying to kill Ben, but it’s not really possible given that we know Ben lives to the present. I think the goal was to show how deep Ben’s manipulation of Sayid went. Ben KNEW he could get Sayid to kill so many people and make him such a fractured, empty man. Ben also KNEW that after he had used Sayid to do awful things, Sayid would be such a worthless shell of a person that he would to try and kill Ben in 1977 as revenge. Really though, this information (Sayid attempting to murder young Ben) would give older Ben the opportunity to take Sayid as far to the breaking point as possible.
Loved the episode and especially loved the flashback so reminiscent of The 23rd Psalm. The old school narrative structure really provides the context that allows true psychological insight into Sayid’s shocking decision. He gave in to all those voices telling him he has no choice, can’t change, and must obey a nature stamped into him as indelibly as Jack’s tattoos or Juliet’s brand. The parallel of Ben’s harsh upbringing to his own causes Sayid to believe, despite his obvious empathy, that Ben’s progression from innocent, yearning child to nefarious mastermind would be inevitable. But is this “The Appointment in Samarra” moment in which you meet a Fate precisely because you tried to avoid it?
I’ll say it again: change IS possible. That’s the whole goal and source of dramatic tension, is it not? To change one of the underlying variables, to change one’s self for the better? If we can overcome our capacity for violence (Sayid), our inherent selfishness (Sawyer), our fear that makes us take flight (Kate), our dependencies (Jack), our deceitfulness (Sun), and the limitations that we impose on ourselves (Locke), then we might be able to save not only ourselves, but to make a better world as well. Or a similar six factors.
I think we’ve seen hints that present day reality is in a constant state of flux as evidenced by such details as the barracks never becoming Otherville as well as a whole host of cosmetic shifts and anomalies throughout the history of the show. More importantly, all the things that were not “supposed” to happen like Alex getting shot. If the present is this dynamic in response to what’s happening in the past, I don’t see how you can say the past can be fixed through a “whatever happened, happened” rule.” When Faraday or Chang or Hawking talk of rules or what can’t be done, I interpret “can’t” to mean because of the horrific consequences rather than plain impossibility. Instead, I see a cycle that keeps repeating until we can get it right and go on to the next level.
As for taking the word of TPTB, I think one day we’ll be brought to the edge of the water and, after being whacked from behind with purgatory, time paradoxes, and/or the collective dream, they’ll simply explain “We lied.”
Defend the island.
First up, Connie, that was very, very funny. I can imagine halfway through their pirate re-enactment, an Other runs up to Richard telling him that young Ben is nearby. Poor Richard. Years of looking respectable to all sorts of island visitors and young Ben has to appear on the same day as their annual Pirate Picnic. The island does have a sense of humour.
So, my thoughts on the Ben thing. I think he won’t die for the same reason that Michael and Locke didn’t die: the island needs him. Someone above suggested that the island is Time. I don’t think that’s true necessarily but I think the island is the ‘thing’ that controls potential paradoxes and thus makes it possible to travel through time. If this is true, I think it is a clever device by the writers. The whole ‘what if I killed my grandfather’ paradox negatively affects most time travel stories. So the writers have created the idea of the island as a mystical, beyond-our-scientific-knowledge (i.e. almost magical) element, whose power lies in ensuring that such paradoxes cannot happen. Now I don’t know how it would work (I mean, how DID it stop Michael from dying in his self-inflicted car crash?) and it might well be something that is never explained. But this could be its role. If that is the case, then the Lost writers should be commended for creating the most satisfying, serious time travel story in the history of time travel stories. There can never be a paradox because the island will not let it happen. Somehow.
If the island does save Ben, even if he has been shot directly in the heart, then this would explain why by 2004 he thinks he is special and why he appears to react so poorly to the arrival of John Locke. While all the island was doing in saving Ben was avoiding a paradox, from Ben’s point of view he will feel like a God, an immortal destined for greatness. He will live his life for the next 27 years thinking this way, until he gets a tumour, which will not heal by itself, and then meets John Locke, a paraplegic who can now walk. Ben surviving a shot by Sayid nicely explains why Ben shot Locke. If Locke can survive a bullet, then he is special. If he doesn’t survive, then he was never as special as Ben, who had survived a bullet. I wonder then whether Walt will appear to Ben, as he did to Locke. That would explain their interest in Walt and why they had to let him go. He still had more to do.
A couple of minor things. Although I’m not a fan of alternate timelines or Ben experiencing the same loop over and over (I don’t think that’s what they’re going with), I did note that when presenting the book “A Separate Reality”, Ben said that he had read it twice. Did he read it twice in separate realities? Secondly, although we didn’t see it in a flashback, I think the moment Sayid stops trusting Ben is when he realises that Ben killed his girlfriend to manipulate him. That’s why he tells Hurley to do the exact opposite of what Ben says. They must be saving this for another flashback, although I would have thought its inclusion here would have been particularly pertinent. Either I’m wrong or the writers are saving that flashback for another reason.
The latest Episode of ‘Lost Untangled’ on Abc.com/lost features a quick shot of Ben in a Hospital Bed. I don’t think we have seen a scene like this before which leads me to believe that BEN IS ALIVE and Jack will save him…
DaveWR and Atoms…watched back the episode and did think Ben said “I hated him.” But then I turned on closed captioning, and the script read “I hate it here.” Watch it back again and it’s clear that’s what Ben said. He may have swallowed the last sound in “here” to make it sound like “him,” but he definatley said, “I hate it here.”
@Jeff in Cape Coral-Thanks for doing that bit of research. Whatever mysteries we can answer amongst ourselves, however small, leaves us more brain cells to obsess over the larger mysteries. It definitely makes more sense that he said “I hate it here” rather than “I hated him.”
To Steve in Bathurst: Amazing third paragraph about how Ben might perceive himself as something approaching immortal and then adding extra meaning to the shooting of Locke at the pit.
I don’t see the realization by Sayid that Ben executed Nadia. But it would have been great if they had at least hinted that this might have been Sayid’s motivation. However, that might have destroyed the difficult emotions Sayid felt when he finally went through with the deed. If Sayid knew for sure, he would show little remorse or pity.
WOW!!!! What an episode. The triangle of LOVE is not going away soon, The dude that is designing the Swan is psyco and when Sayid’s final decision is to shoot and kill Ben, then is Ben even involved anymoer??? Does Ben create the problem in thepace/time continuim? I think that with others being smater, If it is on, you need to contact me to get in. ill hwlp you teh correct way. See ya\
I think the Others are ghosts. I think they’ve been on the Island for thousands of centuries and built the four-toed statue. This explains the Whispers. This explains why Richard Alpert doesn’t age and how he was able to walk through the sonic fence. Ghosts don’t die and don’t age. We’ve seen Dharma defectors die (ie: Ethan, presumably Goodwin), but I believe the original Others have figured out that by being one with the Island, they can become immortal. Whereas the Dharma folks were trying to manipulate fate to prevent the end of the world. Another faith versus science reference.
Ben wants this power, but cannot get over his natural inclination to manipulate fate. Ben’s biggest fear is death. We saw this fear manifest twice: first, in season 3, when he had that tumor; and then in this season when he made sure he killed Locke so he wouldn’t be the one to die. Ben lacks the faith needed to live forever.
But I digress. This idea of ghosts I believe will play a pivotal role in the
final season. Perhaps the “war” will be between the living and the undead. But the concept has its roots all the way back in season one because, if you think about, our Losties have been at war with themselves since the beginning and in flashbacks, we saw that each person had his or her own “ghost” of the past.
thoughts?
He’s Our You was another brilliant episode. I didn’t know which way it was going and for a minute I thought Sayid might end up really killed in the end.
Like a lot of posters, I too believe that Ben is not dead. I still believe what we are seeing is one timeline so since we know Ben grows up to kill his dad and do all the manipulating he ends up doing, he lives through the gun shot.
I do think that Ben looks up to Sayid. I think seeing Sayid “infiltrate” the Dharma camp as a prisoner is what inspires him to do the same thing in season 2. And I think getting shot by Sayid is what inspires him to shoot Locke later to continue on his mission.
And I believe the bullet will somehow connect to the reason Ben develops the tumor.
Jack saving Ben in 77 is how Ben will know Jack can save him in the future.
Sayid’s actions also explain why he is not on Ben’s List.
My bad if any of this has been posted but I just finished watching the episode and I never read the posts beforehand so I don’t get spoiled.
Peace.
Some great thoughts in this comment section.
There are three outcomes that are possible for young Ben:
– Jin wakes up, sees Ben is shot. Radios in that he has been shot, Sayid is on the loose, and Jack/Juliet saves Ben.
– The others find Ben, and take him in and cure him.
– The island magically heals him.
I believe the first one is more likely than anything. The re-pairing of Jack and Juliet will push Juliet and Sawyer apart. Sawyer will go back to Kate… very confusing, then again I don’t think anyone really knows whats going on there. The relationships between those four are just confusing at best.
@Zhami Had the best suggestion I have read yet. This shooting, which Sayid believes will end his suffering and is for the greater good, will trigger a war between the hostiles and Dharma.
It will lead up to the Incident- involving Jughead. Somehow the Dharma folks will believe that a large enough explosion will do away with the Others once and for all. Though I would think an explosion the size of Jughead would radiate the entire island and cause a huge mark.
Also, I believe that Sun and Frank have traveled back in time. That the intake building they saw, and the shell of a brunt out building is shortly after (maybe one to five years, not 20+) what happened with the flaming van. Perhaps right after the Incident. They are going to be sent in to help course correct perhaps via Christian?
Last point- What DID happen to Doctor Chang? Why wouldn’t he be in with the vote for what happens to Sayid?
@Phil R and @Zhami – I agree, I think that the “war” is caused by the “hostile” (Sayid) shooting a young defenseless DI kid, Ben. The DI were ready to kill the other just for trespassing, imagine the response they would feel appropriate for the attempted murder of one of their children. Perhaps their present-day interest in children is due to the healing young Ben will miraculously experience as the universe course-corrects and the otherwise fatal wound heals.
Then again, perhaps “The Rules” are more flexible, maybe things can change, and if this is the case, the “war” would still be between DI and the hostiles, but it would probably result in an uninhabited island, like the one Sun and Frank Lapidus appear to have found with Christian being the only presence. Why else would the DI barracks not be taken over by the hostiles when the DI leaves?
Also, why does Widmore need Locke at the island for the war? It appears the time the Aljira 316 folks are there, the war has already occurred.
Perhaps preventing the “war” is the loop so that the Others can continue to inhabit the island.
Also, it must be soon that Widmore is exiled from the island because if he is there in 1977 Penny is an Other or will be one if she is born soon.
Another random thought: Maybe when we see Horace and Olivia happen upon Ben’s birth, they are traveling in time from a future date and are there to make sure he survives his premature birth.
@Phil R. ….but it clearly tells us its 30 years back when they flip from Sun/Lapidus/Ben on the little island to the 1977 Dharmaville…so they are in 2007…3 years after smokey tore apart Dharmaville when Ben unleashed him after his daughter, Alex, was killed.
@Phil R …I think Dr. Change is still such a mystery because of all the names he uses and his arm etc. Hopefully there is more to his story- maybe when we see a Miles backstory- if in fact that theory proves to be true.
I loved the casting of Oldham too. And I know the producers have promised that there is no cloning on the show but they do like to make a lot of pop culture references.
So I just wanted to say that I would be eternally greatful to Darlton if they could write in for Oldham a brother named Daryl, who gets cloned, so that Oldham must then introduce people to “his brother Daryl, and his other brother Daryl.”
I agree with most of the posts above that Ben will likely survive and gain a lot of knowledge about the future and then take action to ensure the future happens as planned.
The problem I have with that is why did Ben go to such great lengths to try and keep the Losties on the island if he knew that the oceanic 6 needed to leave?
Okay, so I am firm believer in reading the whole blog before I reply but WHEW! You guys have a lot of great ideas — a lot to chew on from here til next Wednesday.
The McFly rule DOES apply (which contradicts Daniel’s notion that “whatever happened will happen,” which Daniel himself disproved when he “gave” Desmond a new memory by interacting with him in Desmond’s past). So if Sayid killed the young Ben, he will be changing the chain of events therein after. Which brings me to the supposedly upcoming Purge (as a product of Dharma-Hostiles tensions):
The presence of Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Jin, and now Hurley, Kate, and Jack has already changed the Dharma-Hostile dynamics (don’t forget that bomb that Sawyer dropped on Richard on their first night). On the OTHER hand, had Sawyer et al not come along, then Amy would not have given birth to Ethan (who clearly was supposed to have survive the Purge and later harass our Oceanic 815 survivors). If Ben is dead, it could be argued the Purge would happen anyway (just no patricide and no Dharma Bus for Hurley to discover later). And remember what Dharmaville looked like in Frank and Sun’s future. Bottom line, the dynamics have changed. Or if you prefer, “Everything’s going to change. Have a cluckity cluck-cluck day, Hugo.â€
Love the Podcast! If you want crossovers….. Kevin the cop that Kate married (and then drugged) played Kevin Buchanan on the ABC soap OLTL. Faradays Co Pilot who was instantaneously Killed when flight 316 crashed is also a OLTL cross over and also playing a Buchanan son. I want to mention that the best acting I have seen on Lost to date came this season when Locke was standing on the table about to hang himself. Although I am not a huge fan of Terry O’Quins that scene was beyond phenomenal. I never had any doubts that Ben was Evil and think it is interesting to suddenly think that Whidmore may be the lesser of the two. I also truly believe that if anyone screws up Sawyer and Juliet it is Sawyer and Juliet. I really enjoy hearing everybodies thoughts and theories about the show but think that the Kate and Jack bashing is detrimental to what is a wonderful compliment (Your Podcast) to the best show that has ever been on network TV. Keep up the Great work and again Love the poscast!
So I finally had a chance to read up on everything. A lot of good thoughts and ideas.
@Zhami: Great points. The third paragraph especially seems like it is spot on. And I agree with you that in the end, we will all see Ben was doing everything for good.
I actually have this theory that when Dharma learns about the O6, they try to capture them or kill them and the purge could be the Others’ taking a stand to save them.
@Steven in Bathurst: I agree that yes, the Island is not done with Ben so he will be saved in one way or another.
@Phil R: I like your idea about Jack and Juliet pairing to save the boy and that creating a a shift in the dynamic of four of them.
Hey Ryan and Jen, I got the perfect term for the Jack/Juliet/Sawyer/Kate thing by the way: Paralovagram.
OK, I don’t understand something. Locke went around telling everyone that they had to go back to save those left on the island. Jack in particular was feeling very guilty about the people left behind and the supposed awful things happening to them. Now they are there, and obviously nothing bad is happening to Sawyer etc. So why isn’t Jack pissed that he came back for no apparent reason?????
@Nancy from CA: I think Jack is glad to be back and would have come back even if no one needed his help. I think he’s wanted to go back ever since Locke mentioned that Christian said for him to say hello to his son, that was when his downward spiral really got bad.
Kate said she has a reason to be there, I am presuming for Sawyer, but not sure. The only reason Sun is there is in hopes of finding Jin.
So, we still don’t know what brought Hurley and the guitar case there.
Also, I would bet that Ben had someone hire the “bounty hunter” that brought Sayid there (probably his attorney arranged that) when he realized Sayid was not willingly going along for the ride.
So really, none of them came back to help the time jumpers, how’s that for leadership? Maybe the O6 will keep returning to the island until they evolve into people who can put interests of others ahead of their own.
Another random thought: If the O6 never left, which Ben thought they were dead anyway since he knew the freighter blew up when Keamy died, then he probably still would have left the island with the donkey wheel. His first order of business was to see Widmore and tell him he changed the rules and that now Penny would meet the same fate as Alex. If Ben would have left regardless of the O6 leaving, all the Losties would have jumped through time on the island together until someone else turned the wheel, right? So maybe their leaving the island was inconsequential and they had to return to the island to course correct events.
If I remember correctly Richard Alpert, Widmore, Ben, and Miss Hawking all told Locke that the O6 must return, so they must all remember them from the island in the 70’s.
Nosebleeds are still happening here in TX. Please someone put that wheel back on it’s axis.
Great posts everyone!! Amazing theories and conversations!!
Can Kate’s reason for returning to the island be as simple as her love for Sawyer? No doubt she still had those feelings, but it would have to be something larger than that to force her to sacrifice her relationship with Aaron. I believe Kate received some special knowledge from Ben or one of his agents. Perhaps it just involved some threat against Aaron or at least an assurance of his safety, although I have the sense she was persuaded more than coerced. Some revelation made her change from “you people are crazy” to playing along before that 72 hour window closed.
I agree. I don’t think Kate came back for Sawyer. Off island, she didn’t seem too concerned about him and if she felt that strongly, she would’ve never left in the first place. The only thing we have seen Kate be passionate about is Aaron. So I think all the tension with her conversation with Sawyer was just to get the viewers to assume it was him and raise the intensity of this paralovagram. But I think her reason for returning has something to do with what happened to Aaron.
I don’t think Ben is dead. Interesting to think that when Sayid first met Ben, Ben already knew him. That’s why he knows so much about the status of all the survivors and what needed to be done in the present. I need to go back and watch the episodes where Ben first interacts with the survivors. He already knew a lot of them as a child. Need to see if there’s anything telling in the way he acts.
@Russell. You have to remember she (kate) thought she was leaving WITH Sawyer. It was only because of him jumping out of the chopper that stopped that. For all intents and purposes though she was leaving with him.
That’s true, but still I didn’t get the impression that she still wanted to be with him. She followed through with whatever she had promised she would do (with or for his daughter or whatever), but even when Jack and Locke were trying to get her to go back, she wasn’t trying to hear it.
But now things have changed a little bit because she sees that Sawyer’s with Juliet, and jealousy is a green-eyed smoke monster.
Way back in Season 2 when Michael was trying to get Walt back. The list he was given included Jack, Kate, Hugo, and James. This must have some current meaning.
Great show and I’m loving the podcast!
We are not told what Oldham uses to gain the truth, but I assume it was sodium pentothal.
Seeing some above comments mentioning the Carlos Castenada book, A Separate Reality, I have a hunch there’s some allusion to using plants (something found in the jungle?), perhaps during a ceremony, for transcending to an alternate state of consciousness. It could be something foreshadowing for the future. We have already seen on the show the time when Boone was able to “see” after Locke drugged him? And we’ve seen a character wake up but they’re not awake, they’re actually dreaming, for example, Michael sees Libby in the hospital; Kate sees Claire in Aaron’s room. Jack, Hurley, Juliet, Kate, Eko and Shannon have all seen someone or something while in the jungle that no one else could see and then have these moments of clarity about what they’ve seen because it is something from their past. It’ll be interesting if they intend to use “states of consciousness” in upcoming episodes.