Trans 2010-03-10: “Dr. Linus” (Episode 6-07)


“Ben deals with the consequences of an uncovered lie.” Instead of our regular blog post, this week we posted a “Shortwave Transmission” initial reactions podcast, as Ryan will soon be off the island. We include some calls from the LOSTLine, as well as the latest track from The Others LOST Band. We’re hoping “You All Everybody” can keep the conversation going on the blog. What did you think of “Dr. Linus”? We’d love your comments below!

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276 Responses to Trans 2010-03-10: “Dr. Linus” (Episode 6-07)

  1. corivee says:

    @Russell: I think you are right about Hurley. He was already seeing dead people in the sanitarium and Jacobdidnt touch him until he gave him the guitar on his way to the Ajiera flight. Hurley must have another one.

    @Yann: I like this theory even better now after reading what you posted. You nailed it with Kate’s gift of escaping locks and cages and Sayeed as a no fail killer. If Sayeed wants you dead you will die. Even with little boy Ben Linus. He had to be brought back to life by Richard and the others, right?

    @Soko: Hate to keep bringing up this insignificant substitute teacher thing but, yes, it is based in reality. If you google “substitute teaching california” you will see that all that is required is a 4 year degree in any subject matter (and passing a basic skills test) Sometimes long-term subs are hired because it is cheaper than hiring a new teacher temporarily. I am buying Locke as a teacher.

  2. Carol from Boston says:

    I’ve been thinking about Desmond, he is the one person left who has traveled back and forth in time, without the island and without the machine (that Faraday used) This is may be why the rules don’t apply to him. I know that it happened to other people on the ship but he also moved through time during the hatch explosion as well.

    I wonder if he is important to the flash sideways to make people remember their “other lives”. He is going to a key to all of this, I am just not sure how yet.

  3. Russell from California says:

    i’m way late to the party. but i think dr. linus might have been the best written episode of the season so far. the writers have been trying since the season started to correlate the LA X timeline as the dream “what if” scenario. in some episodes it worked, in others, not so much. but in this story, we not only see ben story as a metaphor for the entire show, but we also see him redeemed.

    the main reason i think it resonates with so many people is because it’s really the first flash sideways to have a beginning, middle and an end, rather than just a glimpse into some strange land. it was a more a vignette, than a commercial break.

    i have to catch up on the posts, but i do think it’s fair to confirm that my “no-suicide clause” i posted here a few episodes back is pretty dead on.

    also @rich in cleveland i dig the “detention” concept you brought up. it definitely relates to some ideas of the losties as “lost children” in need of direction.

    i think one key question is in richard’s case, is aging considered suicide, so is that why he never ages? does that mean the losties from this point on will never age either?

    or is jacob’s touch a tailor-made gift to each person?

  4. John Harvey says:

    From what we are seeing so far, I would say then that Widmore is probably seeking to be a candidate or Jacob like. He may not even know the whole story, but he obviously wants power or something that he feels is obtainable from his vantage point, but I don’t get the feeling he is on any one side. He is looking for some lost or missed opportunity.

  5. greenberry says:

    @Carol ~~ DITTO! It would be so wonderful to continue our banter beyond May…..

  6. Tim R from UK says:

    Wow, what an episode. The best this season for sure (second place being Lighthouse, though purely because of the off-island story).

    Have to say, I unashamedly loved the reunion scene. Sure we’ve had a few of them in the past but that was like, what, 3 seasons ago? The ep was a whole throwback to the roots of the show (group of misfits finding redemption at beach) and I am so glad they went there. Maybe next episode we’ll see someone wistfully looking out to sea and Gacchino’ll bring back some old season 1 themes. That would make my life.

  7. Chuck L. from Des Moines, Iowa says:

    I loved this episode, Ben’s redemption scene was incredible. I can’t wait for next week! I have a hypothesis … I think that in addition to Charles Widmore on the submarine will be Eloise, Desmond, Penny, Charlie, Aaron & Ji Yeon, unifying the bloodlines of the “good guys”.

  8. Coolpeace says:

    @ Yann : Ok, it makes sense that if the temple waters healed Ben, we can assume that Jacob wanted it done.

    Here are a few quick thoughts on Dr. Linus :

    Sideways Locke tempting/pushing Ben into thinking he could so better and should make a play for the principal’s job. If I didn’t know better, I would swear that Locke was channelling MIB.

    Sun asks Ilana about the candidates : “…replace Jacob to do what?” Illana replies ” if you are the one selected you will find out.” Is it more than protecting the Island?

    Miles tells Ben about Jacob’s last thought “… he was hoping he was wrong about you.” Which to me implies that he did not hold Ben in the highest regard. Jacob was hoping not to be stabbed but expected to be.

    The Jack and Richard interaction : Jack understood Richard’s wish to end it all – because he was in the same dark place after learning of Jeremy Bentham’s death (Locke).

    Basically, Locke told Jack exactly the same thing that Jacob told Richard : “Everything happens for a reason.” but Jacob died before telling Richard and Locke died before Jack found his faith.

    Jacob is to Richard what Locke was to Jack at the end of season 3.

    A final thought about Ben and the principal. Some of you mentioned above whay did Ben not write the recommendation to Alex himself after ousting the principal. Alex specifically mentions to Ben that the recommendation cannot be written by him because it has to come from a Yale alumni.

    However, I thought it was obvious that Ben had written the recommendation (although he denied it to Alex – why make her think that she was not worthy of the principal’s high praise) and had the principal sign it in exchange of not getting him fired. “Alright Mr. Principal, I won’t go to the Board, but here is what I want you to do.”

    The principal wanted the power of the position but I have no doubt that Ben still struck a deal (or call it blackmailed) with him in order to keep his secret. Hence the History Club meeting again. Ben still has him by the balls for more minor things.

  9. Mattfromnd says:

    I’ve been wracking my brain trying to figure this out.

    Hurley says to Richard, ” you look the same as you did 30 years ago”.
    What’s bugging me is that I don’t remember hurley ever meeting Richard during his short time in the ’70s. He spent almost the entire time With dharma and then escaped and was hanging around the swan site before the incident.

    does anyone remember off the top of their head if hurley met Richard during his time in the 70s?

  10. Coolpeace says:

    @ Russell : I think the tailor-made gift from Jacob idea sounds good to me.

    A final crazy idea and then I am off to sleep… I spend too much time thinking about LOST – I will have a serious case of withdrawal come May.

    @ Carol : maybe we should think about starting a Lostaholics annonymous club.

    OK, so here is the crazy idea:

    Remember when the Doctor from the freighter washed up ashore dead with his throat slashed but he was alive on the boat only to be killed by Keamy hours later? Also there was the Faraday experiment with time lapsed the same depending on the degree of enrty (I am not sure how to explain this but I am sure you all know what I mean :-))

    What if the bomb pushed the rift of time further apart ? So that the Widmore in the sub is coming from the Sideways world – namely from the 2004 timeline?

  11. Carol from Boston says:

    @coolpeace – yup, I am definitely a lostaholic and it’s a relief to know I am not alone. 🙂

  12. MRPEMSTAR says:

    The secret DHARMA station on Hydra…

    This “leaving the main island” really baffels me
    for Flocke.

    Why on earth, does he think he can “just leave” the main island?

    We’ve assumed that he is “trapped” on the island”
    and that Jacob was the one that trapped him there.
    Now that Jacob is gone he thinks he can “just leave”?

    And what did he do to deserve “being trapped”?

    What is sooooo special on Hydra?

    The Pemstar Initiative thinks once he leaves the island
    Flocke will be “vulnerable”. For what? who knows….

    He wants to leave, did DHARMA leave something there
    for his departure?

    Or possibly his destruction? Hmmmm interesting…….

    I’m open for suggestions…..

    ~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

  13. Rich in Cleveland says:

    @Kyle from Pittsburgh
    Loved the explanation of MIB’s convoluted process of requiring a candidate to execute his plan while only being able to assume the form of those that have died on the island. It fits perfectly.

    Namaste. Great observation that perhaps Widmore is the power-hungry analogue to Napoleon, especially since he shows up in the final twist.

    @MLE @YAE
    “And you were there and you and you…” I’ve enjoyed every minute of our shared dream.

  14. Yann From France says:

    @Carol: The “Cabin fever” was the crew living different part of their lives without knowing which was which… I think it is a safety measure to protect the Island or it is due to the electromagnetic propriety of the Island that are controllable by using the frozen wheel or by releasing the EM of the Swan (and distrupting the “wall” will have you seen in the north pole)
    (I am searching for the interview with D and C but I can’t find it anymore)
    @MRPEMSTAR: MIB can go to the hydra station… it is part of the “radius” where you bounce back if you don’t know exactly how to go with the right direction. We have seen him there when the Ajira flight crashed… and you know why he wants to go there? Well… he had the Others make a “runway” to save the plane didn’t he?

  15. Yann From France says:

    Official podcast is up.
    They won’t address the “dharma drop” during the show or the podcast but they will give an answer… How is that possible? Ho you know what, I just found out that an official encyclopedy will be released at the end of the show! Is that a coincidence? What is sure is that it means more money for ABC, Disney and the writers! I hope we won’t have to pay for all the answers! But I have to admit that it is quite clever from them to do that…

  16. Yann From France says:

    Hurley power is, of course, that he is so lucky that he can’t loose in a game… Except to Walt! Or Sawyer can “read” through people… Except Ben who conned him! (or maybe the Loophole means the “rules” don’t apply to him and other Candidate are just “normal” to him) I guess they can’t kill each other and suicide but their power don’t work between them.
    And remember, when Jacob touched Kate (thus giving her the power to escape anything) he asked her to never still again (because she has the best power for a thief!). I don’t know if it’s true but this theory makes so much sense with everything! It is amazing! All that due to a small sentence told by Richard.
    I would like to thank April and Corivee. That is one of the best conversation that I have seen on the blog!

  17. Yann From France says:

    Sawyer shot the marchal and… did not kill him! I guess the marchal was a Candidate and they got it all planed since the beggining!
    How MIB found that Ben was the Loophole? Well, Ben had cancer and was not healed by the Island/Jacob! It meant Jacob had no power on Ben!
    Funny how Jacob power is healing and Jack is… Healing!
    (I should stop writing now! Sorry if I got carried away.)

  18. Carol from Boston says:

    @yann – re: the gifts love the insights. Think about this – does the gift have to do with how they rec’d it. Plus how the gift is also a curse.

    Kate- he helped Kate “escape” from prosecution for the lunchbox and now she can “escape” from almost any situation. But on the curse side – she runs from everything instead of facing her feelings.

    Jack- he gives an Apollo bar – Medicine and healing were associated with Apollo the god. – Curse – feels like he has to fix everything or his life has no meaning.

    Locke – he gave him the gift of life, a second chance, which he receives on the island when he can walk again. Curse- until he gets to the island, Locke is half a man frustrated by not being able to do what he wants.

    Sawyer – Is his gift stubborness or the ability to con? because instead of learning to let go, Jacob encourages him to hold on to his grudge. This stubborness has gotten him through many bad situations and so has his ability to work a con. – curse- His stubborness gets him into the bad situations in the first place.

    Hurley- after his dad left he was fearful of people leaving him. Gift – can see dead people, so he doesn’t have to really let them go and he can have closure. – Curse – he thought he was insane.

    Sayid- this one puzzles me, he is not really given a gift, his love is taken away from him and takes away the positive force in his life.

  19. Yann From France says:

    @Carol: Love your thoughts as always!
    I would say that for Sawyer is gift was “reading through people” so has not beeing con as his parents were (“I am really sorry about your mother and father, James”). The curse was, he used it the other way around to con people! We will see if in his next life he will not have better judgement on how to use that.
    Funny how he gives him a pen and how Sawyer is such a “reader”.
    Kate got a “box” like a prison but she is always on the run.
    Jack gets a candy but never feals “fed”.
    Sayid… that strange, Jacob is asking the questions (“Excuse me, sir? Could you help me? I’m sorry, I think I’m lost. Are you from Los Angeles?”) touch him in sympathy for the lost of Nadia… I can’t make no sense yet but I am sure someone will (Rich I am looking at you)
    Sun and Jin… I guess we will understand when we get a bit more info.
    Hurley: You’re right! He even tells him “you get to talk to people you’ve lost”.
    I thing we cracked something very big in the lost mytho here! That’s just great!

  20. Yann From France says:

    @Stephen from NH: I know some stuff about next episode but I won’t spoil anyone… but I think the best spin-off lies there!
    I will wait wednesday but if their “gifts” are still operative in the new reality (and I guess so due to Desmond) I think the “reader” and the “listener” are the best guys for the job! That would be totally awesome!

  21. Carol from Boston says:

    @yann – good thoughts! Love the term “reader” for Sawyer, especially he really loves books and the insights they give him.

    re: Sayid and the Kwans – he seems to take away from them, Nadia and Jin and Sun’s togetherness.

    Mental note – I can’t read this board before going to sleep since I end up thinking up theories instead of sleeping. Last night Yann you had me going re: gifts.

  22. Byrd says:

    What about the theory that Jacob brings candidates to the island with the hope that there will be one that will choose a selfless request to save mankind, verses a selfish request of immortality. MIB may have been one of the candidates who “won” and requested from Jacob to have the same powers as him. Over a long period of time he comes to despise Jacob because he is confined to the highland and unable to die. Richard would also be a candidate that was brought to the island at some point that “won” and also requested immortality. We really do not know who Jacob is, why he is on the island. I almost feel he is more of a neutral being that sees sufferring as a necessary evil to birth ultimate good which erases the evil (Jack choosing for the plane to never crash thus keeping many of the deaths that occurred from happening). Jack is the candidate that will “win” and make the selfless choice for the crash to not have happened and save mankind. Everyone has good and evil in them, Jacob is hoping that one of the candidates will allow the good/light to trump the evil/dark inside them. Hurley could also be the ultimate protagonist of the story, since he seems the most pure of them all, but with Jack being the start of season one and the start of this final season leads me to believe he is the protagonist. Thoughts?

  23. Russell from California says:

    quick thoughts:

    maybe the lost writers were playing with pronouns again when miles told ben that jacob “was hoping he was wrong about you.” maybe the “he” in this case is MIB, considering MIB’s hypothesis about man’s innate corruption.

    also, when widmore is pulling up in his sub, and sees the beach, i got the impression he wanted to land there where jack and co. were, but somebody made me realize that he said “no keep going” so does that mean keep going past the main island to the hydra island where UnLocke is?

    @byrd good thoughts. i like the idea that the next candidate must choose to be fill the role through selflessness, not some ulterior objection like the ones UnLocke dangles in front of his recruits.

    for the record, i don’t think widmore is the one jacob is referring to. i believe him and ben will be on different sides, so now that ben is with jacob’s crew, widmore will be Team Dark.

    crackpot theory: this is a random thought about the boy with bloody hands in the jungle who scared UnLocke. i think his name is Cain. (the island Elba is an anagram for Abel.) mark my words.

  24. Peter From Canada says:

    I am excited to see what happens when Lock’s gang gets on an outrigger and heads for the Hydra island. My prediction: It will be a raining. Recall how during the time flashes Juliet shoots at the pursuing boat?! I wonder who on board gets hit? Hopefully not a redshirt. Supreme irony if it is Sawyer – each one being “responsible” for the other’s death? Maybe in the “Across the sea” episode? I also predict that in the sideways universe they will get together for coffee, and it all ends happily.

  25. Coolpeace says:

    Question to all :

    How did Widmore know where Locke was going to ‘land’ in the Sahara? He had cameras up and waiting for Locke. How did he know that a war was coming? Who told him?

    Back at the FDW Christian told Locke he had to fix the wheel and that he had meant for Locke to turn the wheel originally, and furthermore Locke would have to die.

    If Christian = MIB then and Widmore was waiting for Locke to land then Widmore is with MIB. Do you agree?

    Looking back at the last significant interaction between Widmore and Ben on the Island – as Charles is being lead away (banished) from the Island by Sub (interesting that he is coming back the way he left) :

    Here is the transcript of their dialogue (Dead is Dead) :

    BEN: Charles! I came to say good-bye.

    WIDMORE: [Chuckles] No, you didn’t. You came to gloat.

    BEN: No, don’t act as if I wanted this. You brought this on yourself.

    WIDMORE: Are you quite certain you want to do this, Benjamin?

    BEN: You left the Island regularly. You had a daughter with an outsider. You broke the rules, Charles.

    WIDMORE: And what makes you think you deserve to take what’s mine?

    BEN: Because I won’t be selfish. Because I’ll sacrifice anything to protect this Island.

    WIDMORE: You wouldn’t sacrifice Alex.

    BEN: You’re the one who wanted her dead, Charles, not the Island.

    WIDMORE: I hope you’re right, Benjamin, because if you aren’t, and it is the Island that wants her dead, she’ll be dead. And one day, you’ll be standing where I’m standing now. You’ll be the one being banished, and then you’ll finally realize that you cannot fight the inevitable. I’ll be seeing you, boy.


    Prophecy from Widmore? Or is that the moment of genesis of the loophole for MIB. MIB saw an opening with Widmore to take down Jacob?

    By recruiting Widmore (somehow) and exploiting Ben’s weakness : his love for the children … by making it impossible for the Island women to bear children and therefore side track Ben from his pledge not to be selfish and to protect the Island? Because we know Richard did not like what Ben was doing in that regard (recuriting Juliet etc.)

    I think this makes alot of sense to me? Any thoughts?

  26. Yann From France says:

    @Byrd: Or Richard failed because he didn’t asked for the Black Rock to not wreak…
    Jack thought that preventing the Incident would prevent the crash… The best way to save the lives the Island has ruined would be more to ask that… the Island never existed! Or that the atomic bomb succeeded.

    But Richard said it all “Jacob touched me, and when Jacob touches you… well it’s considered a gift except it’s not a gift at all. It’s a curse.”
    Maybe he was surrounded by dead people and said to Jacob that death was the worst thing that could happen to someone or he was hurt from the wreak and he asked Jacob to stay alive (when you make wishes to Genies(or the devil?) don’t forget to be specific!) and thus ended up immortal.
    I like our theory better! :p
    Candidates have a gift (and we have seen many of them now!)
    Something else: I thought I said it or that I read someone who said it but here it is: The last remaining “rules” we don’t know yet is, why Widmore was banned from the Island because he had a child outside. If Widmore was a Candidate (but he would be address by his surname) then in fact it might be his child! And that’s why you are not suppose to have “unrecognized” children or outside Island children because it would be problematic to bring them…

  27. Yann From France says:

    @Peter: it was a sunny day when they were shot. And then when Sawyer say “thank you lord” when they flash and there it is raining… “I take it back!” lol
    @Coolpeace: Widmore had Charlotte working for him (she was a candidate and he knew that’s why his Freighter team is with those people, he wanted them all on Island) and she found a bear with a Dharma neckless in the Sahara. He thus decide to hire some guys to check the area for the next “jump” but Ben killed them and left them on the spot… Thus he knew it was “there” so he placed camera there.
    I don’t think Christian is MIB because he has been seen off Island (the freighter and Jack’s hospital) and I am sure we will see him again and since he is dead off Island and that MIB is stuck in Locke form I guess he is not MIB.
    Not sure that Widmore was being more specific than “if she is not a Candidate she is not to be on Island” and she will die because Jacob will not protect her. But it is true, it probably didn’t help Ben with his Jacob issue…

  28. Coolpeace says:

    @ Yann : you are right, I forgot that Charlotte found the polar bear in Tunisia which may be the exit site for the Island.

    As for MIB being stuck in Locke’s form : during the appearances of Christian on the freighter and at the hospital, MIB was not in Locke’s form during those sightings. Those happened before Locke died. The only time we saw Christian after Locke died and MIB took his form was in the barracks when he spoke to Sun and Lapidus. At that time, I do not think that MIB was ‘stuck’ in Locke form. I understood that MIB became stuck in Locke only after Locke’s body was buried by Ilana and company.

  29. Carol from Boston says:

    When MIB inhabited Locke there was still locke’s body in sight. Where is Christian’s body? We have never found it. That is the difference with smokey inhabiting them, we have seen bodies for Alex and Yemi, but never for Christian.

    Are the Aija surivors on Hydra Island? Is the plane there? Can all our losties go through the luggage there and get some clean clothes? lol Lapidus and Sun Ben and Ilana have been in the same clothes for a long time now. At least Hurley and Jack and Kate got clean clothes at Dharma. J/K. 🙂

    @Knives – where are you? Haven’t heard from you this week have we?

  30. Rich in Cleveland says:

    Loved the way you articulated the duality of the blessing/curse. The sphere of influence one falls under will ultimately determine the way that person feels about the Sistine touch. Sayid’s gift is certainly the most nettlesome. The best explanation is that his life was spared. However, this seems a bit redundant as Locke, the most important piece on the board, had already been granted the gift of life. Inman gave Sayid the gift that more closely matches your idea: the ability to find the truth, but often as a result of the suffering he creates. Obviously, you are a candidate stitched into Jacob’s tapestry of Fate and endowed with your peculiar gift long before the actual touch because the contact with Hurley comes post island as well.

    An unrecognized allusion from this last episode started me awake last night as well. There was something so familiar about the way Flocke flicked his fingers to unlock Ben’s bonds. Then it dawned on me that it was virtually identical to the way Randall Flagg opened Lloyd Henreid’s penitentiary cell in “The Stand.” Do not accept his offering, (“then it was the stone, then it was the key”) even if you are between the devil and the deep blue sea.

  31. Rich in Cleveland says:

    @coolpeace @Yann
    The exit point does pose a problem. I believe Widmore tells Locke he knew of it by virtue of his own banishment, yet we see him depart on the submarine and we see Ben land there before the site has been secured.

    My take is that Widmore discovered it through a signature electromagnetic disturbance when Ben transported through it.

  32. Yann From France says:

    @Coolpeace: Yes but what I meant was… MIB wants to leave the Island. If he was Christian off Island then why would he wants to go now and couldn’t before?
    It has been said on the last offical podcast that MIB is stuck since he killed Jacob.
    @Carol: Yemi corpse had disappeared the last time Eko came to the plane (before he got killed)… I thought MIB hid the bodies so people would mistake him for the missing corpses.

  33. Yann From France says:

    @Rich: I state again about the “exit point” first Charlotte found the polar bear in Tunisia… So Widmore payed guys to scoop the area. Ben came there and killed them on the spot. Thus Widmore knew that it was “there” and put the security system with a camera in case someone else would came out.
    I don’t know if Widmore is bad but he wants all the Candidate to be there with the boat and after with the ajira plane (he put a body guard with Locke also) and he did that with the help of Heloise… Seems to me he wants the guys that could take Jacob place to be there so I am not sure he did that so that Jacob could take them out of the Island again (since it is what Jacob is trying to do now)
    Makes more sense now that the Others are ready to commit mass murder on anyone that come to the Island. If only the candidates and their protectors are their they can’t be killed!

  34. Carol from Boston says:

    @yann- good point. But why does Clare refer to her dad and her “friend” as two seperate beings? Did he come to her at different times as different people?

    @Rich – Good point, Sayid had to be saved because he was a candidate and Nadia wasn’t, so she could die because she was meant to die at some point. Whatever happens, happens right? IF she didn’t die then, she would die at another time. re: finding the truth – when he tortured on the island he didn’t get the truth, both Sawyer and Ben lied while being tortured.

  35. Russell from California says:

    @carol i think MIB did come to claire at different times. remember, MIB was taking Christian’s form only before he became UnLocke.

    @yann i like the idea of MIB stashing bodies to keep anyone from realizing he wasn’t real.

    i just finished listening to the official podcast, which is real good if you haven’t heard it yet. darlton brings up an interesting point that jacob could have been in the cave and messing with MIB who later took over.

    with that said, i think kate is the wild card. i know people don’t care for her and yesterday i figured out why. the problem is that kate doesn’t have an internal struggle like the other main characters. her struggles have been external (escaping custody, raising aaron, finding claire), but she’s not really battling anything inside like jack (man of science), locke (man of faith), sawyer (con man with a heart) or hurley (guilt for being “cursed”). it’s hard to feel for kate because we don’t know how to root for her. but the writers keep forcing us to believe she’s important.

    and i believe she will be. i think in this “game,” kate is a wild card. jacob crossed her name out in the cave to throw MIB off her trail. that’s why UnLocke looked confused when he saw kate emerge from the temple in Sundown. so i think she’ll play a pivotal role, but since her character arc isn’t as well-defined as the aforementioned or even ben, it will be hard for her story to resonate.

  36. greenberry says:

    I think Kate did feel quilt and remorse for getting her childhood love killed — remember the attachment to the toy airplane? But in other way, she does seem mostly reactionary.

    I think it is SO COOL how the show of Lost covers so many intellectual pursuits: English (literature); Math (the numbers); Science (mind/time travel); Psychology (destiny, purpose); History (mythology) and Philosophy (good/evil)

  37. Yann From France says:

    @Carol: And the Christian out Island can’t be MIB! I agree they are not the same! Charlie told Hurley (post death) that Christian was to visit Jack… I think that ghosts are “watching”
    @Russel and Greenberry: the worst thing about Kate is how selfish all that she ever did seems! She killed her step-father while her mom loved him. She toyed with her childhood love tho he was married and got him killed. She didn’t do tacco night with a cop she loved even tho she knew it could never work (or she is really stupid). She used a guy to rob a bank to get a toy and then got rid of him.
    And on Island she loves Jack, she loves James, she tag along, she runs back to… even tho everyone asks her to don’t do that but you know she is not doing it for them but for her.
    And you know what… I think that is exactly why she will be new leader. Because that the only way she could redeem herself. She is the one that need the most to do something altruistic as a gesture toward redemption.
    @greenberry: On your Philosophy is more than good or evil… Nietzsche would even say it is “Beyond” good and evil! 😀

  38. Coolpeace says:

    @ Yann : I heard the Official podcast while going to work and I laughed out loud when I heard them answer the question, I didn’t know I had a psychic link to Darlton 😉

    I understand what you mean about MIB being off the Island as Christian – but is it not possible that both entities (Jacob and MIB) can manifest outside the Island (in the ‘real world’) temporarily? That they can manifest off Island but must return to the Island.

    Did Charlie not tell Hurley that his friends on the Island needed his help. In other words, Charlie wanted Hurley to convince Jack and company to return to the Island. Sounds like MIB’s plan.

    @ Russell : I agree with your assessment of Kate, the Wild Card 🙂

  39. Coolpeace says:

    @ greenberry : I agree about Kate. I believe that Kate killed her biological father to help her mother escape his constant beatings. Kate tells Diane that she took care of her and she gives her an insurance policy in her mother’s name. Wayne was an alcoholic, and also made sexual advances toward Kate, although certainly misguided Kate thought she was helping her mother.

  40. Rich in Cleveland says:

    You’re right that Charlotte discovered the exit point first. It just seems to me that Widmore remained unaware because it was not secured when Ben arrived. I believe the Bedouin that Dr. Linus met were red shirts or fodder, not Widmore’s agents.

    @ Russell
    I don’t agree about Kate. I vividly recall her plea to James for a “clean slate” on their way back to the beach camp. Very moving. I also thought she was a good person from the first moment she stitched up Jack. They’ve flattened her character out since then, but I would put early Kate up against any of our flawed candidates.

    @the usual suspects still posting
    I’m not sure about all the manifestations of Christian, but I have a strong feeling that Christian off island (as well as Hurley’s apparitions) are not the devil in disguise. I think Flocke is bound to the island in a way that Jacob is not.

  41. Yann From France says:

    @Rich: If you go to Sahara nobody will put a gun at you! The desert is really beautiful… People with gun sounds like guards to me, but who knows. But I am sure that Widmore joined the dot with the Dharma bear and those guy being killed.

  42. Patty from Virginia says:

    “Hello. I have something I think [we] should [be reminded of]. If you don’t mind, I will begin at the beginning. Long before Christ the king of Judah was a man named Josiah…. At that time the temple where the people worshiped was in ruin. And so the people worshiped idols, false gods. And so the kingdom was in disarray. Josiah, since he was a good king, sent his secretary to the treasury and said: ‘We must rebuild the temple. Give all of the gold to the workers so that this will be done.’ But when the secretary returned, he had no gold. And when Josiah asked why this was, the secretary replied,'”We found a book.’ … What the secretary had found was an ancient book — the Book of Law. You may know it as the Old Testament. And it was with that ancient book, not with the gold, that Josiah rebuilt the temple.” Eko, What Kate Did.

  43. David says:

    Just a few things. First, excellent episode. To me, every one gets better. About Kate’s going to the temple after she says she wasn’t going there then ends up going back. In “The Lighthouse,” after she meets Jack and Hurley, Kate says she’s going to the beach to look for Claire but Jack mentions that the Temple Others talked about her. So I figured Kate went back to ask about Claire only to find out that she was at the temple. Also, the shooting of Ben from last season. If the plane doesn’t crash, Sayid can’t be on the island. If he’s not there, he can’t go back in time. If he’s not in 1977, he can’t shoot Ben. So Ben can’t be taken to the temple to be healed and he won’t become our Ben and since apparently Ben and his dad left the island in the side-flash, then Ben turns into a school teacher. Lastly, I mentioned in “The Substitute” about the creaking boat noise in the transitions and Ryan said it was in “What Kate Does” as well. I went back to the season premire and it’s there too. In fact it’s in every episode so far. Whooshing-whomping noise, airplane flying over, then boat creak. Sometimes louder than others or longer. It’s bugging the crap out of me because I keep thinking about it. Something so innocent but why else would it be there if it wasn’t important somehow. AAAHHH!!! I Love Lost.

  44. Rich in Cleveland says:

    Excellent reference and right on the money with the Book of Law. You can see how this is much more than a parable now. Triple exclamation marks.

  45. David says:

    Oh, something else. This season has been reminding me of some comic event from the past few decades. In 1986, DC had the Crisis on Infinite Earths event where they took all of the multiple earths that had cropped up over the past 40 years or so and combined them into just one. Then a few years ago, they had Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis where the multiverse came back as 52 Earths. In 1996, DC and Marvel had a crossover in which 13 heroes and villians from each side were forced to fight each other and the losing universe would be wiped out. At one point, the two were combined into one universe called the Amalgam universe causing combinations to be formed. Wolverine and Batman became Dark Claw and other combos. The ‘verses were pulled back apart and the end with the help of a young man called Annex who had discovered that he could move between universed and dimensions (like a certain Scotsman and time). Lastly, in 2005, Marvel had the House of M event where the Scarlet Witch went nuts and altered reality itself causing people to seemingly get what the had always wanted. Spider-Man was loved by everyone, Wolverine got his memories back (causing the eventual downfall of the whole thing because he remembered how things were supposed to be) and the Witch’s father, Magneto ruling over an Earth in which mutants were in charge. This last one really came to mind after the last few episodes where Flocke asked people what the wanted. Of course, there have been many stories with multiple universes or realities throughout the years but this show and the people in it are just the best. Thank you so much for the podcast and for a place for all of us to throw out all of our strange and crazy ideas.

  46. Mimi says:

    This comment has nothing to do with this episode, but I just made a connection that I thought may mean something to (specifically) last week’s episode and (in general) the numbers and what they mean. Forgive me if someone else has already mentioned this.

    A few weeks ago my boyfriend and I were at a baseball fan fest for our team. There were a variety of activities and at some of them literature was available. So I had a bag full of pamphlets and fliers that I finally got around to reading. Did you know that a baseball has EXACTLY 108 stitches. I repeat… EVERY BASEBALL HAS EXACTLY 108 STITCHES! So does that have any meaning when it comes to Dogen’s back story?

    If we make that leap, is it possible that way back in season one, when they creators came up with the numbers and they all added up to 108, that was planned to somehow tie into a baseball theme somewhere down the road? Could it possibly be just another coincidence that the writers did not intend? What do you think?

  47. greenberry says:

    Mimi ~~ I think you’re on to something! Also lots of references to the infamous Red Sox match.

  48. Tori, also from Syracuse says:

    Re the 108, that will definitely be interesting to see— my guess is it’s one of these multilayered symbols the writers love so much. Of any of the sports, baseball (with the possible exception of golf) is certainly the most “mystical.” Think “Field of Dreams,” etc.

    The number also has enormous significance within Eastern religions (see for more). To name just two:

    1) Heart Chakra: The chakras are the intersections of energy lines, and there are said to be a total of 108 energy lines converging to form the heart chakra. One of them, sushumna leads to the crown chakra, and is said to be the path to Self-realization.

    2) Hindu deities have 108 names. Recital of these names, often accompanied by counting of 108-beaded Mala, is considered sacred and often done during religious ceremonies. The recital is called namajapa.

    Anyhow– brilliant crazy stuff, as ever!

  49. Yann From France says:

    @mimi and greenberry: ok it is a fun coincidence but how do you that could be something bigger than that? During the Finale a baseball game is played to decide the fate of the universe?
    The jerseys will depend on their numbers. MIB is having killed the best players (Dogan).
    Richard will be the referee… Widmore is coming to the Island because people do what he tells them to do and thus he is one of the best coach in the world.
    Jacob brought Jack to the Lighthouse knowing he would get an occasion to practice his “swing”.
    Yes it makes sense… everything happens for a reason and that is: Baseball!

  50. greenberry says:

    okay ~~~ that made me laugh!

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