Next: “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham” (Episode 5×07)

“Locke’s fateful mission off the island as Jeremy Bentham is revealed.” We’ll post our initial reactions after the episode airs here in Honolulu, but we’d love to have your thoughts and theories for our next podcast. Please comment below, send us an e-mail at lost@hawaiiup.com, or call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127 by Friday, Feb. 27.

101 Responses to “Next: “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham” (Episode 5×07)”

  1. HeyKir in NYC says:

    @Chris
    I didn’t say I actually trust Ben. lol I just think the motives for all of his actions may not be as decidedly evil as we are being made to believe. Perhaps I’m wrong…but isn’t all this ambiguity wonderful??? Ahhh, the beauty of gray!

  2. Dave says:

    Glad to see the site is back up and excited to read all the comments!

    Soko — patience is a virtue. If we already knew why Ben looked so beat up and how all the O6 wound up on Ajira 316 there wouldn’t be much suspense, and everyone would be grumbling that they gave away too much too quickly. Seems to me like with such obsessive fans (myself included) the writers can’t win.

    To all who commented about how Sun and Sayid were not supposed to be on 815, and how Sun and Lapidus were in the canoe, keep in mind that Lapidus WAS supposed to fly 815 and backed out at the last minute.

    Camille — Excellent analogy between Richard and Locke. Consider that to Widmore, Locke must seem the way Richard has to all of us… from our perspective Richard has not aged and from Widmore’s, Locke has not aged. The whole crux of this show has been about self vs other, and we’ve seen this dyad with the Losties vs the Other and vs the Tailies and the Tailies vs the Others, as well as Dharma vs the Others… perspective means everything.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Ben allowed himself to wind up with the injured 316 survivors. We’ve seen how adept he and the Others are at insinuating themselves into situations and allowing themselves to be captured.

    Alex in MD — I saw Locke as the Emperor, not Obi Wan. Interesting homage though.

  3. Dave says:

    More brain dumping:
    - I like the Sayid as captive to Kate as captive parallel, especially since we have that footage of Sayid when Kate goes to visit her dad in the recruitment center.
    - Do you really think Ben killed Abaddon, or is he fessing up to it because he’s manipulative? I wonder whether Widmore didn’t do it (ignore what Ben said… since when did listening to him ever get you anywhere worth a damn) because Abaddon should have been keeping Locke away?
    - I like the nods to the questions the fans are asking. “How does Ben [or Locke] convince the O6 to get on the plane to Guam?” “What about Walt?” “How did they decide to call him Jeremy Bentham?”
    - So is Ben Judas to Locke’s Jesus? What about Eloise Hawking made him go nuts? Did he realize that Widmore knows that Hawking knows where the island is? And if so, who is Hawking aligned with? Ben? Widmore? The highest bidder? Why would she enable Ben going to the island if she was pro-Widmore?
    - I like that Christian has shown up as a common character in the back story of several Losties (Jack, Claire, Sawyer, Ana Lucia) before his corpse wound up on O815; now Locke shows up with the O6 before his corpse winds up in A316. Maybe Locke is Christian’s successor.

    But here’s my still unresolved issue. So perhaps it was fate and not coincidence that brought the people on O815 to that flight… we now see that Abaddon (as an agent of Widmore) helped get Locke and Hurley there. But even so… the reason 815 went down was Desmond failed to hit the button in the Swan in time. So even if someone (Widmore?) put those people on the plane, he couldn’t have known Desmond was there and would fail to hit the button on time [but not so late that the Hatch would blow up], especially since Ben apparently didn’t even know he was there (though we know Mikhail could have seen him). So was 815′s crash both fate AND coincidence?

  4. Jen says:

    I am just wondering, who is Charlotte’s Dad? Did I miss something?

  5. Carol says:

    I wrote this in an email to Ryan and Jen since I couldn’t wait for the site to come up.

    It has been revealed that Sun’s father is a business associate of Widmore, and Jin was told he had to get on that flight to LA to deliver a watch, he was actually threatened in the restroom because Sun was thinking of runnning away with Sun. So he seems to be one of the people destined to be there, along with Sun. (flashback scene in season finale of season 1)

    Terry O’Quinn and Michael Emerson and that episode all deserve an emmy.

  6. April says:

    After listening to the podcast I wonder if they named the flight 316 as a reference to John 3:16 since that scripture refers to God’s love of the world as displayed by the sacrifice of his own son and those who believe in his son would have everlasting life. The whole thing with Christian saying John would have to give a sacrifice of his life. Not sure if it has any correlation but it seems to fit. I’m sure they had a reason for naming the flight 316

  7. Bonita (from Atlanta) says:

    so-oh happy you be back!

    Love all the comments.

    Here’s some Lapidus thoughts:

    Could Lapidus and Sun be the Canoe shooters? They missed conspicously – as a possible ‘warning’?

    Could Lapidus be doing the air drops for Dharma back in the day?? As more than one poster pointed out he can really fly well.

    I do hope he gets some more air time and back story.

  8. Marco from Boston says:

    Jen says: “I am just wondering, who is Charlotte’s Dad? Did I miss something?”

    I certainly missed something too, but apparently other lost fans haven’t from this wikipedia site: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte

    The Charlotte page says: Charlotte Staples Lewis was born on July 2, 1979 in Essex, England to parents David and Jeannette and was raised in Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, England along with two younger sisters. The validity of this statement is unknown however, as Charlotte has since stated that she was born on the Island, and that her father did not leave with her and her mother. (“Confirmed Dead”) (“This Place Is Death”)

    So maybe Essex, England could be where her parents were born (before they were on the island), and they decided to use that same place for her forged birth certificates when she left the island. For all we know, she may have a father and two sisters that are still living on the island (but since the purge happened, that may be unlikely).

    -Marco

  9. Carol says:

    There was a diagram of time in the hydra station,

    Here is the screencap http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/8838c6e2f6366a96b715a3fd9d567546 (hope it is okay to post this Ryan) if not, I am sorry.

    It lists “imaginary time” and “imaginary space” I wonder if this could be the “magic box” where all your dreams come true? Maybe Locke’s dad wasn’t there, it was just a different dimension.

  10. Libra1212 says:

    I was watching the Totally Lost video on ew.com and one of Darlton’s teaser before Wednesday’s episode was, “Why is Sayid in Santo Domingo?” It seemed odd they would mention that when it wasn’t a huge part of Wednesday’s episode. At first I was thinking maybe it was a cryptic clue that DOMinic Monaghan might be coming back to the show (wishful thinking!). But then I thought, hmmm, does Santo Domingo have any unique metaphysical properties, say, like Ayers Rock? So I googled Ayers Rock, Santo Domingo, and Tunisia together and got the following link about Vortices – which are areas of high energy on earth.

    http://www.ofspiritandsoul.com/earth%20vortices/vortices.html

    I can’t claim to completely understand this article, but it’s interesting that Santo Domingo is considered by some to be a major vortices (high energy spot) as is Ayers Rock.

    Some other familiar locales are vortices or areas of good energy:
    Iraq (minor voritice)
    Indonesia* (minor vortice)
    Tuniasia (place of good energy)
    Seychelles (minor vortice)
    Egypt- particularlly the area around the pyramids (and Sphinx?) (minor vortices)
    Australia (area of good energy)

    There are also areas of negative energy cited. Negative energy is a ‘natural’ phenomenon. We need the natural negative energy to balance the positive (yin-yang)

    Interestingly, there are some more familiar areas listed here:

    All the Grand Canyon area, Phoenix in Arizona, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Sierra Nevada’s, Mount St. Helens
    Indonesia (again)
    North and South Korea

    What do you guys think. Love the podcast. You all and Jay and Jack are my favs each week.

  11. Ilias says:

    Hi guys!

    Hope you are feeling better.

    This episode was great, it was dark, I believe the darkest yet but the performance of Terry was terrific and I like Abaddon (Lance Reddick is a likable and intense actor). Was it poetic justice that both Locke and hs father were strangled?

    Well, as always there are questions, although this episode answered some questions and gave us farther info.

    - Why didn’t Widmore go back to the island? It seems that you can go back and Widmore knew where the island was?
    - What war is coming? I can only discern two parties, the Losties and Locke’s/Ben’s/Richard’s flock/tribe.
    - Locke says that only four days passed but that is not quite true, they time time jumped a few times, how does time jumping actually count. If 4 days were 30 years, then the 100 days that they spend on the island would be ….. …..it is just too late to calculate but the math doesn’t add up.
    - The two locals tried to capture Ben, where they Widmore lackeys?
    - For some reason I do not believe that Helen is dead.
    - Who are the newbies? Why did Caesar hide the gun? How did they find the Station so quickly? It seemed to me that especially Caesar knew the destination before he boarded, just a hunch.
    - What really happened between Ben and Widmore? What was Richard’s role in the conflict? I have a small problem with the time line though. When did Widmore become the leader, when was he ousted and when did Ben lead the purge? Was Widmore Horace’s boss and he fled before getting killed? If so why did Richard switch sides? Wouldn’t that mean that Penny was born on the island? This makes my head hurt a bit but Eloise told each one of us to take a Leap of Faith…..
    - Will Walt appear again? I am ok with his story line, although some of his special abilities and stuff were not fully explained but by now I have come to accept the fact that not everything will be answered.

    I actually find it a good idea that they switched 316 with this one, it makes for better drama.

    Why would anybody ever trust Ben again, he tried to kill Locke twice now, even if the second time the reasoning is ambiguous as he may have needed to in order for Locke to come back to the living when they get back to the island.

    Nevertheless Ben is a lying son of a gun…… he has returned to the island.

    You guys are great, in Greek we say evxaristo (thank you)!

    Take care…/

    Ilias

  12. Alex in MD says:

    One more thing…although the name “Caesar” obviously refers to the leaders of the Roman Empire, the name also has another allusion for me. “Caesar” was the name chosen by the ape in “Conquest for the Planet of the Apes” (the fourth film). Caesar led the rebellion that eventually led to the rise of intelligent apes and the fall of man into the beasts that they became by the time of the first “Planet of the Apes.”

    Will this “Caesar” become the leader of one of the armies leading it to overthrowing our current world order?

    Hm…

  13. Alex in MD says:

    Entertainment Weekly has a post about the parallels between each season of LOST and the Planet of the Ape movies. You can read it here: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20040589_3,00.html

  14. MLE in Colorado says:

    These are my favorite comments and insights and guesses from above…I love reading what you all write and wish we could sit around and talk about all of it!

    @ Camille in Slovenia:
    It definitely seems like LOST’s Caesar is in charge of things and keeping track of where everything is. I am curious to see where his allegiances lie, he definitely knows things, but how much?

    @ Ben said this above and I LOVED it:
    I did finally cave on the fact that Locke will do ANYTHING if you tell him he’s special.

    Me: “Hey John, mow my lawn.”
    John: “No”
    Me: “But you must John, you’re special!”
    John: “Well OK, where’s the mower.”

    He’s just a puppet the others like to manipulate.

    @ Ryan H asked this:
    Did anyone else notice Ben’s reaction when Locke told Ben that Jin was still alive? I wonder if Ben would have still killed Locke if he would not have mentioned Jin?

    @ Russel said:
    Here’s my theory: I think Matthew Abbadon is Walt. Hear me out. When Locke approached Walt in the city, Abbadon says “I’ll give you two some privacy” and disappears. Maybe because he didn’t want himself to see his future self (Back to the Future style). When Locke returns, Abbadon says “I take it you didn’t ask him to come back.” How would he know that? He wasn’t around.

    @ MSredhd:
    2) Sun was never suppose to be on flight 815. That is why she remained with the other passengers of 316. She is the woman who took the canoe with Frank back to the main island in search of Jin. She is however in current time (2009) and Jin is back in DHARMA time (the 70’s)- that should be an interesting journey.

    @ Alex in MD:
    • I LOVED Hurley’s blasé reaction when he thought Locke was dead and his panicked reaction when he realized that Locke wasn’t.

    @ Dave said:
    Locke must seem the way Richard has to all of us… from our perspective Richard has not aged and from Widmore’s, Locke has not aged. The whole crux of this show has been about self vs other, and we’ve seen this dyad with the Losties vs the Other and vs the Tailies and the Tailies vs the Others, as well as Dharma vs the Others… perspective means everything.

    My comments:
    * I agree Caesar is important as his name and actions allude to.

    * I, too, love that Locke was put to the task by his peers about his “specialness” :)

    * Ryan H- I didnt think of that and you may be right- something really cuaght Ben when Locke said that Jin was alive- he was shocked.

    * I love that Abbadan could be Walt- I think we will see walt again but maybe more as an apparition of to explain his appearances in season 2- I agree there was some closure in that scene.

    * Seems reasonable that Sun and Lapidus were in the Canoe and what is cool is we think that she and Jin are in different times and if so it adds to the drama of them finding eachother. (Yes folks we have yet one more major Jin Reveal before this show is in the can!)

    * Also loved that Hurley was less disturbed by a dead guy than an alive guy!

    * I, too, liked that Widmore was tickled by the fact that it had been decades since he last saw Locke looking the same and yet it had only been a day or something since Locke last saw him. That was cool and pointed the whole kick these guys get out of time travel.

    I think as I said a few days ago that Ben may have killed John because he knew he had to die and maybe knew he couldn’t kill himself for some reason…and I like the idea that so many people have a vested interest in the time travel to go back and save people they have LOST in their pasts. Oh oh oh and when someone (Mike?) said that Maybe Claire didnt mean don’t bring back Aaron- but don’t bring back Ben- its possible but I think she meant her son…

    Look forward to the pod cast guys!!!

  15. Rob from IL says:

    Aloha Ryan & Jen!

    What a GREAT episode! After seeing the story come to the point it did, after talking with a few people, I tried my best to map out the time-line of what has happened between Alpert, Widmore, Ben, & Locke. I stuck with those 4 characters because I believe they are the 4 “leaders” (current or former) of the different groups that we’ve seen during the first 4 1/2 seasons.

    Let me know what you think!

    Here’s my run-down of the events of Alpert, Widmore, Ben, & Locke:

    1. Alpert and his conglomerate started a scientific mission on the island back in 1954 (or earlier).
    2. Alpert went to go visit Locke when Locke was younger, after Locke had talked to him in 1954 and had given Alpert a compass and told him to come visit him in a few years after he was born in 1956.
    3. Alpert went through some questions with Locke, but at that time didn’t think Locke was the “chosen one” he was searching for.

    4. Charles Widmore was one of the people on Alpert’s team.
    5. At some point, Widmore and Alpert had a disagreement and Alpert got Widmore shunned off the island. When Widmore left the island, he also actually “moved” the island by turning the mule wheel and ending in Tanzania (which is how he knows where the “exit hole is”).
    6. Widmore didn’t know where the island was after that. Widmore now monitors the hole for those people leaving. He saw Ben leave the island but couldn’t get to him because Ben was too quick to beat people up and do what he had to do. He was able to pick-up Locke because of Locke’s injuries.
    7. Widmore most likely had grandioso ideas of how the island’s powers could be used while Alpert most likely wanted to learn about the island and use the islands powers as a gateway to heaven or the “next life.”
    8. Widmore took his big ideas and started the Dharma Initiative… Full-blown testing of the island’s power!
    9. Widmore used the Pendulum Room that Ms. Hawking showed us to find the island (“it was used by the Dharma Initiative”)
    10. Widmore used Faraday, Ms. Hawking’s son, to do research on time travel, how it works, and the effects on humans.
    11. Widmore ended up paying to take care of the girl when Faraday fried her brain while he was doing tests on time travel.

    12. Faraday was on the Island in a Dharma Initiative outfit when they found the power source at the bottom of the Orchid. Charlotte also remembered Faraday when she was on the island as a “scary looking man who told me not to come back.” So, Faraday had traveled back in time to the island prior to this expedition in order to help him learn about the island’s powers and how the time travel worked.
    13. Faraday also came up with the Constant Theory, which allows him to use his Constant, Desmond, to ground himself in the present and past so he doesn’t suffer the mental and physical brain damage other people do.

    14. Ben came to the island with his Dad after his Mom had died as part of the Dharma Initiative when he was younger.
    15. Ben was mentally beat on by his Dad and hated him and Dharma.
    16. Alpert found Ben and used Ben as a way to wipe out Dharma (aka. The Purge)
    17. After the Purge, in which Ben killed his Dad face-to-face, Alpert used Ben and treated him as the leader of the Others.
    18. Alpert convinced Locke that he was really the one who should be the leader of the Others. When Ben told Locke he needed to prove himself by killing his Father, Locke refused. Alpert, however, had background information on Sawyer and his relationship to Locke’s Dad (Locke’s Dad had swindled Sawyer’s Dad, which led to Locke’s Dad killing his wife and himself, leaving Sawyer parentless.) Sawyer followed through on the murder of Locke’s Dad, and Locke claimed that he had done the killing himself.
    19. Locke astounded the Others with the sacrifice of his Father and put Ben in a weaker leadership position with the Others.
    20. Ben tried to kill Locke on the island when he pushed Locke into the big hole of bodies and shot him. Fortunately, Ben shot Locke right where his kidney used to be before he had it removed to donate to his dad.
    21. Ben also told Locke that he was supposed to stay with and lead the Others, while Ben left the island by turning the mule wheel, which “moved” the island. After Ben turned the wheel, it came off it’s post. Did this cause the island to start skipping?
    22. Ben luckily wasn’t on the island when it was skipping through time, so he wasn’t subjected to nose-bleeds and brain hemorrhages.
    23. Ultimately, Locke left the island as well, after being told by Christian that he was the one who was should have moved the island and left to find the Oceanic 6 to bring them back.
    24. Ben stopped Locke from killing himself, but then Ben killed Locke himself when Locke mentioned that he needed to go see Ms. Hawking, who Ben knew was Faraday’s Mom & worked for Widmore.

  16. Katie in Dallas says:

    Just a few unconnected thoughts: Running with the idea of Locke as a Christ figure, his conversation with Widmore put me in the mind of the temptation in the wilderness, everything off of the island being the proverbial “wilderness” and Widmore playing the role of the devil. Continuing the allegory, Christ’s hesitation and anguish in the garden of Gethsemane perfectly mirrors Locke’s indecision and fear about committing suicide, and provides a precedent for how death can be both fated and a choice.
    I was confused by Ben’s response when he found Locke in the middle of his suicide attempt. If he wanted Locke dead, why not let him go through with the suicide? He didn’t seem to have any agenda – he accidentally stumbled upon the information about Jin and Eloise Hawking. I do wonder, however, whether the fact that Locke did not technically sacrifice himself will be significant.
    Finally, I’ve been a little disappointed in Ben lately. Last season in particular, you had to appreciate the skill with which he manipulated everyone around him. Now, as we are given less and less information about his motives, I think there is a risk of the character becoming one dimensional. I have no interest in a storyline that reads; “Ben is evil. The end.”

  17. Russell says:

    @Katie in Dallas: Good ideas about the temptation and the Gethsemane parallels.

    For the record, I don’t think Ben is evil. I may be in the minority but I’ve never known these writers to be blatant. I think this is more misdirection. In modern Christianity, suicide is widely considered a mortal sin. So in the Lost world, maybe the Island doesn’t resurrect those who take their own lives.

    Therefore, Ben knowing this (and actually being a good guy) was talking him down so that he could make sure Locke could fulfill his true purpose. Even though we might see it as betrayal, Ben would then be a necessary evil. Just like in the Bible. Jesus didn’t “hang” himself but those who betrayed him and “hung” him on the cross, in turn, allowed for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

  18. Camille in Slovenia (former of Brooklyn) says:

    @Libra1212 – I think that is a good find. IT looks like you are on the right track. But the question is, does Sayid know that or is it just some inexplicable force of energy magnetizing our Losties to these points?

  19. Rob from IL says:

    Just to add on to my post, three posts up… when I had talked about 3 or 4 “groups”, here’s somemore detail on what I was referring to:

    1. The original Scientist group that was on the Island in 1954 looking for a way to use the island’s powers and energy to as a gateway to heaven or the next life. This group turned into the Ben-led Others (see below).
    2. The Ben-led Others who tried to build a civilization and their own little world which looked similar to a neighborhood back home. Ben led the purge of the Dharma people in order to make this happen.
    3. The Widmore-led Dharma Initiative group that overloaded the island with stations, hatches, and testing to find a way to use the island’s energy for life altering events.
    4. The Losties from Oceanic Flight 815, who crashed on the island and began to discover its powers. Locke appears to be the spiritual and faith-based leader of the group, while the Shepherd family (Christian, Jack, Claire, Aaron) appear to be the scientific and fact-based leaders that are slowly taking a “leap of faith” by trusting the island’s powers.

  20. Rob from IL says:

    Katie & Russell – To respond to your posts…

    I was surprised that Locke was trying to commit suicide. He did know that he had to die in order to get the others back, so when I first saw him getting the noose ready, I thought he was “sacrificing” himself. But then when Ben came in, Locke went into his “I’m a failure” mode and blamed himself for not being able to get “anyone” to commit to going back to the island.

    So was Locke killing himself because he thought he was supposed to die and since he couldn’t convince anyone to come back this was the next step he needed to follow, or did he think he was a failure and he was doing it out of depression & grief?

    Also, about Ben…. I think that he’s a “bad-guy”, but you could look at him with some sympathy because he’s been pushed into a bad guy role based on the circumstances in his life.

    I think Widmore is a “bad-guy”, but he is evil due to greed, the need to control, and using the power of his wealth to set-up the Dharma Initiative on the island, to try to find the island after he’s booted off early in his life, to try to kill Ben, etc. Also, the Dharma version of the island didn’t seem like a happy place. It was very military-like, but it also had children mixed into it, which seems like an odd and/or evil place to be.

    I think Ben is a “bad guy” because: his Dad told him that he was the reason his Mom died everyday, he blamed himself for the death of his Mom, his Father showed no love for him, he didn’t have any friends on the island, he seemed like a loner to begin with, Alpert was the first one to show interest in him (although I think he was manipulating Ben to have him help them kill all the Dharma people), he’s put in a position of power (leading the Others) but he’s really not the powerful one (Jacob or whoever Jacob ultimately is has the real power), he brings Juliet to the island who he falls for and is ultimately turned down by her when he tries to “woo” her with his moves, and he tries to build a Utopia on the island by having little houses and a school, etc., but that is destroyed when Oceanic 815 arrives, as some people begin to get stronger…

    (Locke and even Jack get stronger on the island– Jack was torn BEFORE he came to island, but as soon as he got there, he had a true sense of purpose and turned into a true fact-based, logical leader… Locke was able to walk again and was becoming the faith-based leader of the Others…. After Jack left the island, he didn’t have anyone to “save”, so he fell back on alcohol and drugs, similar to his father, as a coping mechanism.)

    … so I think, Ben has turned into a bad guy to cope and become the leader he “thinks he should be”. He has been given “power” by people like Alpert and he thought by Jacob, but now he’s losing that. So, I think he’s using every mental weapon in his arsenal to not go back to the “shunned bad guy that killed his mom”.

    I think Ben’s a bad guy who’s doing bad things, but he’s also doing them to try to get back to the island and get back to his Utopia. He also knows that his Uptopia will never be rebuilt if Widmore gets control of the island again, so he’ll do anything (even kill Locke) in order to have his way.

    Locke was supposed to die anyway, right? So, Ben didn’t technically do anything “wrong”…. :-)

  21. Steven says:

    Hey Ryan and Jen,
    Is there anyway you could edit your future RSS links
    so when I click on them It downloads (In my case It streams It) straight away.

    All the best.

  22. Sandra, also from The Island says:

    Hi Ryan and Jen: On a personal note, it was cool to see the scene between Locke and Walt in this episode since it was shot across the street from where I work in downtown Honolulu. The crew spent a whole day filming and came back another day for some follow-up shots. To realize that all that work resulted in only a couple of minutes of on screen time just makes me appreciate even more the cost and effort it takes to film a TV series. To add to the discussion: I have been reading so many posts since the introduction of Michael Emerson’s character, about who is “good” and who is “evil” … especially between Ben and Whitmore. What if they are both evil and bad guys but in different ways? Between the two of them, they certainly display all seven deadly sins in the Judeo-Christian moral code. Whitmore tells Locke in this episode that he has to return to the island because there is a war coming and if Locke’s not on the Island, the wrong side will win. But what if Ben and Whitmore, The Others and Richard Alpert are the “wrong side.” If so, who is the war against? The Island itself? Jacob? The Hostiles? (I’ve never been certain that The Hostiles and Alpert’s Others are the same group of people). I’m wondering if it turns out that The Oceanic Six (and the rest of the crash victims including the stewardess and children we haven’t seen since Season 1) are trying to sabatoge Dharma as we saw in Season 2. But back to the question of good and evil: I will be very disappointed in the writers if by the end of the show Ben’s statement that “He’s one of the good guys,” turns out to be true. If they can overlook his lies, murders, manipulation and somehow claim that “the ends justify the means,” I will be very upset. I want to see Ben get the punishment and justice he deserves. Perhaps I’m wrong and it will turn out that Whitmore is the real “good guy.” We only know what other people have told us about Whitmore. I think it is yet unresolved if he is also evil or is shown to be good, with the best intensions for the good of the island, at heart. I love how the writers have pushed us one way and then the other about who is good and who is evil. Don’t think we’ll know for sure until the final episode or perhaps not even then. Thanks for the interesting podcasts. Know I didn’t meet your Friday deadline, but hope you discuss some of these issues in the future. Aloha

  23. Evan from the Mainland says:

    Hey Ryan and Jen.
    I left a voicemail but i forgot to add onto part of my theory

    I’m starting to think that since flight 316 was suppose to be a re-creation of 815, maybe 815 was suppose to be a re-creation of another flight. If you think about it, maybe Widmore had Abadon and Christian along with other people who “get people where they are suppose to go”, to go out and find people to load on this plane to re-create some other flight. A good point to this is that most of the people on the 815 crash had kind of sucky lives. Nothing to loose. who would miss them besides family? these were the easiest people to sway and get on board to best simulate a crash before.

  24. Arryy says:

    I wanted to talk about the whole scene where we see Ben kill Locke and there are a couple of interesting things to address…
    If Ben wanted Locke dead anyway, why would he stop Locke from commiting suicide when he enters as Locke tries to hang himself? That leads me to believe that perhaps his original intention was something else and i have narrowed it down to two things.
    Either
    a) Ben really wants to be the leader of the island and so was just using Locke to pretend to be on his side so that Locke could tell him a way of going back to the island. I think that Ben believes that Locke knows a way to get back and so he wanted to exploit this. This is why when he finds out about Mrs. Hawking, he has gotten the information he needs and there is no need to keep Locke alive anymore

    OR

    b) When Locke mentioned Mrs. Hawking to Ben, it seemed to catch Ben by surprise a little. Either Ben knew Mrs. Hawking from before and is surprised that Locke knows him now, or he heard what he wanted to hear and that was a way to get off the island. After getting this information, i believe Ben wanted to eliminate the compeition i.e. Locke, so that he could then go back to the island as its leader.

  25. christy in TX says:

    This episode, while simultaneously filling in holes to the existing story lines and adding questions to new story lines, still seemed a little slower-paced than 316. Maybe I was just not mentally prepares for any O6-ers to be back on THE ISLAND yet, I don’t know. I still loved the episode, but I am glad the order of the episodes was switched, so that the way we learned of their return to the island was with Jack opening his eyes, not by seeing Locke, Ben and the newbies, and then later learning about the O6.

    Anyway, excellent comments, observations, and theories above, so I won’t beat any dead Locke’s – er, horses. But, I do have a theory that came to me about the overall story line and the “energy point” explanation to the island’s significance and mysterious ways:
    I think the writers will use this explanation to account for various mysteries and miracles to ancient and current religions and mythologies.
    It would be a great way to explain things such as the burning bush, the parting of the Red Sea, Jesus walking on water, etc. If these “energy points” can cause these supposed miracles, then those that believe in these faiths will have their belief validated. The beauty is that this also validates those whose belief-system is science-based, these individuals can then state that these miracles are actually explainable (if not fully understandable) scientific phenomena. And while the faith-based folks can state that a miracle is a miracle, and the scientific explanation makes it no less miraculous, the science-based folks can be content in their belief that everything has a scientific basis.
    It still leaves the answer to the question of faith vs. science up to the individual, but will ultimately make most people satisfied that “their” belief has been validated. – That’s my crackpot theory on the overall theme of the show. I think it’s why we see the hieroglyphics, etc, because a pocket of energy was harnessed to aid in the construction of the pyramids somehow, etc.
    I love that a TV show makes me think this much.

    Also, a few points:
    – In last weeks podcast, someone suggested that Charlotte learned Korean from Candle/Chang/Whoever, I think Jin teaches Charlotte Korean, as we see he has been hanging around Dharma folks long enough to be a part of the security team, I am guessing he probably learned English with some help from young Charlotte, too, and she learned some Korean from him (perhaps not fluently, but enough to continue to study Korean later in life.)
    – Why was there no surveillance camera set up when Ben “exited” and ended up in Tunisia? Or was there one, and I am forgetting it?
    – I think Sun and Sayid are in the same time/space with the remaining Losties, just not right there, perhaps being apprehended by other Dharma Security folks. Jin looked like he knew exactly where he was going with his gun, so the others may have been found by other Dharmalites already, but Jin just had not physically seen them yet.
    – Why has the island already healed Locke to the point of returning to the living from the dead, but Ben is still wounded and unable to get up yet? You would think he would be healed too, and that actually most of the people with injuries would be.
    – I think the other woman who went with Lapidus on the canoe is someone who’s presence on the plane is still unknown to us, like Claire’s mother maybe – (just reaching here, so please cut me some slack)

    Love the podcast and the posters here! I finally feel like I have found a little Lost circle of friends here – wow – now we are all special like Locke. Let’s go mow @Ben’s lawn!

  26. Tyler from maryland says:

    Running a tad bit late,but here we go.
    My comment has nothing whatsoever to do with TL&DOJB, but actully two things i noticed regarding the episode that they air beforehand with the annotations on the bottom. This first one struck me last week, but i kinda dismissed it until wednesday’s episode. The annotations are consistently referring to Locke, sawyer, daniel, juliet, charlotte (the late), and juliets group as “sawyer’s group”. Do you think that these may be subtle hints that sawyer will become a very pivitol character in at least that group’s involvement with the dharma initiative for example? The second one was just the fact that i noticed that Christian shepard said “That is why they call it sacrifice”, and then the episode afterwards, Mrs. Hawking said, “That is why they call it a leap of faith jack”. What is next? “That is why they call it baptism”?
    Anyhow, love the podcast. Keep on rocking in the free world
    -Tyler

  27. I hope the 316 survivors aren’t incorporated into the story too much, hopefully they are just used as red-shirts!

    I say this because I don’t think the show really needs any new characters heading into the home stretch and introducing a whole new bunch of people would make the show a bit unfocused.

    It’s great to see the setup paying off from when they were making the runway on the hydra island!

  28. I’m probably past deadline, but here goes.

    With the reiteration of the Hydrogen Bomb concept through the cover of “Life” magazine, I’ve been thinking about what a threat the bomb’s presence poses for the island. It’s appearance in Jughead should create a great deal of dramatic tension, but this is disarmed by our supposed foreknowledge that nothing happens to it. I feel this could be misdirection or could simply reflect limitations on current perspective.

    I suggest detonation has occurred at some point along the timeline. It is only the island’s unique relationship with time that temporarily permits the whole dream of existence to go on. What if the Swan functioned to discharge the energy of this blast gradually, while the explosion, captured in a different plane, moved only at an infintesimal speed. However, once the failsafe key was turned, that act started the clock on when this “incident” will arrive with its full destructive force on the timeline that we experience.

    Defend the island.

  29. Crissy in California says:

    Love the podcast! Look forward to it every week.

    Ben is cold blooded! I was so relieved to see Locke alive again on the Island. The man needs some clarity before the series is over, even if it’s the tragic reveal that he was just a pawn.

    It scares me just a little that people are beginning to think of Widmore as a good guy. The moral compass of his character seems to point a few degrees away from north if you ask me. You know the acting is good when the snakes on the show get the audience to start nibbling the forbidden fruit…

    I’ll never forget Widmore’s cruelty when Desmond came to ask for Penny’s hand in marriage. None of the good guys I know speak to another man as if he were worthless – ulterior motive or not. When we see Widmore as a teenager he doesn’t bat an eyelash before snapping his friend’s neck or attempting to shoot Locke back at the Other’s camp. He hired Keamy and stocked his pantry with C4. Even his own daughter distrusts him.

    As for Widmore’s laughable claim that he led the Island peacefully, I would ask what part of death by flaming arrow is peaceful? Anyone who can handle a weapon the way those 1950s Others could is probably not a free wheelin’ hippie. They wiped out the US Army Jughead team with their love beads, I’m sure.

    If Widmore knows Ms. Hawkings whereabouts, then he must know about the Lamppost Station. Why does Widmore not use it to find his own way back to the Island? If we can theorize that Ilana or Cesar are working for Widmore, then surely we can theorize that Widmore knew that flight 316 would fly through the Island’s window. Why would Widmore not try to be on that flight himself? Could it be that he’s seen a future time line in which it works out better for him to return another way?

  30. Crissy in California says:

    And I just remembered how Widmore seemed to think he was putting Sun in her place when he gave her that dressing down after he had her locked up at the airport. “I will be respected.”

  31. ntbtlost65 says:

    Hi guys love your pod cast, just found this site a little while ago.
    I just have to agree not to jump on the Widmore band wagon ,we as an audience do not know that much about him. I also have to agree with the poster that Widmore could be playing the role of the devil .
    I was re-watching the episode and when Locke was rescued by the truck I think though i could be very wrong(I had my glasses of and I did not pause)
    However I believe we had a very quick glimpse of Cesear on the rescue truck which would make him definitely on Widmore team and a spy for him kind of ala Ben as Henry Gale . I also still firmly believe that Ben has his own agenda ,I still dont know what triggered him to kill Locke except that we all know that Ben is very capable of that -see the purge and killing his own father. I also would love if John was actually playing both Widmore and Befn against each other as suggested by another poster. I always feel that John tries to do the right thing by his beliefs and always falls flat on his face I would love that he learned some lessons from Ben who has always been able to get Johns Goat(or boar)

  32. Raquel says:

    This sounds like Terminator vicious circle of past and future BUT..

    what if in the first place Widmore manipulated Oceanic flight 815 and paid the pilot to change the route so that Locke gets to the island in season 1 and be the leader? it all makes sense now, Abadon convincing Locke to go for a trip to Australia. In Australia the guide tour rejects Locke and he is forced to go back to LA, how convenient!

  33. Raquel says:

    also to validate my theory, Widmore and Mrs Hawking know each other from the Island and she always knows the coordinates where the island is form the Pendulum room and what airline flight goes near a certain “window” of access. just my 2 cents.

  34. Ced says:

    I don’t understand why so many fans liked this episode. I’m squarely in the camp of those who thought it was less than satisfying. In fact, it is among my least favorite episodes of the show (316 being just about my favorite).

    Locke was a major disappointment to me. For someone who communed with the island, was told that his destiny lay in being a leader, for all he’s experienced on the island, I would have expected him to have gone through a more spiritual, mystical transformation or evolution by the time he left the island. I certainly Jeremy Bentham, an almost mythical person judging by the O6′s reactions in earlier episodes, to be charismatic and imposing. He was hardly that.

    Others have already touched on his brief, feeble attempts to convince the O6 to return to the island (all very anti-climactic since we already knew the outcome) and his penchant for following orders, even mere suggestions. He’s hardly the leader we’ve sometimes seen and often wished him to be. His decision to commit suicide is not a means to help his cause or the O6 or the island as we originally thought, but only a result of the failure in his weak attempts at leadership. How sad.

    P.S. One more Christian metaphor in this episode: the flashes that “grabbed” the O6 members from Flight 316 are equivalent to The Rapture.

  35. Mirepoix from Mtl says:

    Crissy
    The Chalrlotte-Jin Korean connexion makes sense and is interesting
    However, she would have remembered Jin when coming to the Island in 2004 (maybe she was, but was not saying anything about it, as she was for Faraday)

    Rich & Crissy
    Anyone working for Widmore would know of Ben Linus
    Then Ceasar and/or Ilana would have taken care of injured Ben in a terminal way.
    It is not like Widmore to send some people on a mission aboard a plane without a proper briefing
    They also dont seem to be working for Ben or at least they are not hinting that they know him or anything much about the Island and its powers
    In any event (working for Ben or Widmore), they would know who John Locke is … which doesnt seem to be the case

    Who the hell are they working for, if not for Ben nor Widmore ? So we have to think of some other connexions of these two to …
    Could it be some other unknown (or not in the plot so far) terrorist group interested into some of the powers surrounding the Island ?
    However, it does seem that they are learning of the Island as they go along
    So in my mind,they were on that plane but did not know where they would wind up
    Other question: What were they doing on that plane?
    If she was escorting Sayid, his disapearance would have struck her and maybe she would not have reacted as puzzled about Locke’s revelations.

  36. Tori says:

    I’m thinking that Ben and Widmore are dueling bad guys. And what about Alvar Hanso– will he ever show up? Remember the whole bit on the Web a couple of summers ago suggesting that Alvar Hanso’s good guy operation was being sabotaged by a gang headed by Thomas Mittelverk? Any takes on that? Connie, you’re good at this stuff– any thoughts?

  37. Tori says:

    In case people haven’t seen this from a few seasons ago– it is a RIOT– and a great reminder of just who Benry is. Enjoy!

    http://barenakedhurley.blogspot.com/2008/02/oh-benry.html

  38. Aaron from perth says:

    Awesome episode. I am leaning towards Bens an A-hole bad guy and Widmore is the good guy. The black and white theme way back in season one finally may have a meaning. 3 more sleep and im on my way to honolulu! wooo hoo!

  39. I had mentioned to a friend that I thought Claire’s cryptic warning: “Don’t you dare bring him back” might refer to Ben rather than Aaron as well. Good call above.

    Ben’s killing of Locke is supposed to have great shock value, but we are well aware by now that he will go to any length to achieve the ends that he believes makes him one of the good guys. This act changes nothing until we see the merit of Ben’s motives. It would be an audacious trick to try and redeem him from the absolute depths of darkness. As other posters have pointed out, however, in Locke’s passion play, Ben is clearly set up as the agent that thwarts divine duty, tempting Locke down from his “cross.”

    One final idea about the death of Locke occurs to me. Ben clearly needs information about Mrs. Hawking from Locke as I feel he is no longer on speaking terms with Jacob. So he has to buy time to extract this knowledge. On the other hand, Ben always understands the absolute necessity that Locke must die. He just wants it to happen on his terms (as would Widmore I suspect.) So what might be of ultimate importance is the nature of the death Locke suffers. In order for it to truly qualify as sacrifice, a gift to God, it might have to be of a voluntary nature. Ben thwarts this. It hasn’t been touched on for awhile, but we should recall the great emphasis placed on free will by Ben’s band of others. It comes straight out of the book of laws I think.

    Defend the island.

  40. Connie in Alaska says:

    Tori-I love the Barenaked Hurley stuff! Where has he been lately? Several of the Lost podcasts used to feature his songs quite regularly, but not recently. Ryan and Jen, do you know if he is still writing Lost parodies?

    The stuff from the internet, while fun and interesting, was never meant to be promenently featured in the series. I tried to follow, but just didn’t have the time. Once in awhile you will hear a passing reference to somthing from those internet features, but I don’t really think they will reveal anything groundbreaking in the remaining episodes.

  41. [...]   « Next: “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham” (Episode 5×07) [...]

  42. Dave says:

    Rob from IL — I like your theories but… how did Widmore enable the DHARMA initiative to get to the island if he has no idea where it is?

    I wonder… is Eloise Hawking the DHARMA Initiative? She mentions “they” used the Lamppost to monitor the island. It would explain how she would know Ben and the Others and Widmore…

  43. Mark in NY says:

    Did anyone from NY notice the car that Locke and Abaddon were in had NY state license plates with the red Statue of Liberty in between the numbers and letters. Those plates haven’t been used for a long time, at least 10 – 15 years. Oversight? I doubt it with how meticulous this show is about detail.

  44. Orjan says:

    Just heard the podcast and I have not read all comments here so please excuse me if this has been mentioned already.

    In the last episode right before Locke tries to hang himself we see him supposedly with four toes at his right foot. Now the statue is a left foot.

    I believe his 5′th toe is there but we cannot see it. When he is at the hospital talking with Jack we see all 5 toes although his pinky toe is barely seen.

  45. Tori says:

    Connie– Thanks for your insight on the Web-based “Alvar Hanso” stuff– why did I spent those many obsessive hours revisiting that damned site?! :-) Glad to get your take that I shouldn’t put my eggs too squarely in that basket!

    And I am not sure what is happening with the Barenaked Hurley folks…. Very fun stuff…. I also have been unable to find another YouTube favorite of mine re Sawyer, set to the tune of “I’m Too Sexy for My Shirt.” If anyone finds it, let me know! :-)

    A quick thought on the nuclear bomb: Could it have exploded, been mixed up with the time travel thing somehow, and caused some of the problems on the island, such as the barren women and the (potentially mutated) 4-toed foot? In any case, this continues to be an amazing show, in my book– Damon and Carlton are my all-time writer heroes!

  46. Mary Ann says:

    Hi. Can anyone tell me how much time there is between the scene from the end of season 3 where jack tells Kate at LAX that they “have to go back” and them getting on the ajira flight?

    I love Frank – I hope we see him again.

  47. Mtool says:

    Hey guys! Great podcast – question though (forgive me if this has already been brought up): If Widmore has Eloise Hawking’s contact info, wouldn’t he be connected to her and thus have access back to the island? He sent the freighter there – doesn’t that mean he knows the coordinates of the island at any given time? Doesn’t this mean he has access to the lamppost? Am I missing something here?

    I like the theory that Ben is actually trying to help Locke get back to the island by not letting him commit suicide – suicide has been mentioned before via Michael, and it doesn’t seem to be something that is a good method. I predict a future episode (lafleur, maybe?) will show Ben explaining to Locke why he had to kill him.

    So, if they all landed on the island in present-day (2007?) while Hurley, Jack, Kate, landed in the past (why them and not Sayiid, Sun or Locke who were all originally on the flight? what is the criteria for getting ‘let in’ to the time travel flash, and to the island, while others were not?), how the hell do they (Sun, especially) time travel back to Dharma times? Or, perhaps, Hurley, Jack and Kate time travel forward to 2007 after their Dharma adventure?

    Finally, I ADORE Daniel Faraday as a hero (those long loving looks he gives Charlotte make me totally crush on that geeky little hipster), but I’m seeing them lay down the tracks towards him being the final bad guy in this scenario – he had one previous girlfriend’s mind destroyed because of his actions, and then Charlotte, and apparently he does try to change the past (but must know it doesn’t work, because Charlotte still died, right?), and it seems like the way Hawking described a ‘clever young man’ who built the Lamppost was Faraday….he’s either the guy that saves them all, or the guy hell-bent on correcting his mistakes that he’s going to take everyone with him(via Jughead, possibly?).

    I’d rather he be a hero, but I’d also rather Ben be a hero too. Someone suggested that Faraday was someone who gave Ben a lot of instructions in the past which lead to the purge and other horrific Ben actions, but all for the greater good? That is so machiavellian, and ultimately I see the real struggle being the innocent folks caught up in this (Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Sayiid, etc.) will push past this whole ‘fate’ thing to become triumphant. Or will the lesson be to succomb to fate??? Lots of questions, good show!

    [Edited for spoiler.]

  48. Thanks for spoiling, MTool.

  49. christy in TX says:

    @MTool,
    Even though The Transmission does the Forward Cabin section, this is a Spoiler Free zone.
    Thanks for understanding in future postings.

  50. SM says:

    Mark in NY –
    I noticed the old NY license plate too. I said to my boyfriend, “That plate hasn’t been around in a while!” Wonder if it will mean anything??

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