For the gears of “LOST” to turn, you need some nuts and bolts — not sexy, but necessary. Tonight’s episode polished off the inevitable reunification with Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid in 1977, and laid out how things went with the Ajira Airlines survivors in the distant future. Basically, everyone was plotted neatly on a map to make clear the movements and machinations to come. “Namaste” offered few surprises, then, but was still meaty and enjoyable.
Jen’s favorite moment? In her words, “It was good to see Sawyer take that sanctimonious jackass down a peg or two.” Definitely a great back and forth between Sawyer and Jack. It would be very much like Sawyer to have rehearsed that little speech, mind you, but it paid off. It’s a pity that there’s no way in hell Jack will be able to resist forcing himself into the thick of things. I wager he’ll go off script as soon as next week, simply to spite Sawyer, and send things spiraling out of control.
I loved Frank and Sun’s eerie visit to the main island, from the smoke monster-ish rustling on the dock to Christian Shephard’s tour of the dilapidated processing center. The door blowing open with a cloud of smoke was a nice touch. I like how Sun learned that over 30 years separate her from her husband, as well as Christian’s suggestion that reunification may still lie ahead. The elder Shephard does seem to have a fondness for abandoned and decaying spaces, and I’m enjoying pondering what he’s been up to on the island since Locke turned the frozen donkey wheel.
We finally meet Radzinski, a guy who Jen says reminded her of “Comic Book Guy” on The Simpsons. We see now that he was instrumental in constructing The Swan, the station in which he’ll ultimately end up going mad and killing himself. I’d love to learn the story of how he ends up inside, quarantined. I also love that he must have been ultimately successful in hiding The Swan from the “Others,” affirming that its existence was indeed a mystery to Ben and friends when we first found it in Season One.
Having Juliet meet baby Ethan was great, knowing as she does where his path ultimately leads. And Sayid meeting little Ben was fantastic. First, it demonstrates that little Ben has indeed been within the Dharma Initiative concurrent with our integrated Losties (suggesting that Sawyer and friends must’ve really kept their distance). Secondly, it’ll be interesting to see how Sayid interacts with a boy who grows up into a man that Sayid deeply despises.
Notes and Notions:
- The runway raises all sorts of questions. Did Ben and the Others anticipate the arrival of Ajira 316? So soon or even before the arrival of Oceanic 815? Radzinski suggests that the arrival of an airplane is unlikely, but not impossible, in 1977.
- Why is Sun in the future, and not with Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid in 1977? I previously thought it may have something to do with “the list” that Michael used in Season 2, but Sayid wasn’t on it.
- A leading fertility doctor ends up working as an automotive mechanic, and it’s cool and almost sexy. A spinal surgeon ends up a janitor, and it’s simply hilarious.
- Hurley’s reunion with Sawyer was great. “Kong. I actually missed that.” He also raises the spectre of “The Purge,” although I’m convinced that’s over a decade away. It’s “The Incident” that I’d be worried about.
- I was dismayed that Sun was apparently throwing her lot in with Ben… and stoked when she clobbered him. She delivered the line, “I lied,” with Ben-like perfection.
What did you think? Please comment below, e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com, or call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127.
Rich, In the lost magazine, Matthew Fox said that the turning point for his character was saying yes to Ben to going back to the island. He is now becoming a man of faith, and has stopped his denial of what was happening on the island. He is now more open to seeing what the Island needs from him. I do remember an important line from him in a previous season “you all want me to be the leader, but then when I try to lead, you don’t want to listen to me and do what I say”. I think he did a pretty good job except for last season where he just wouldn’t believe that those people weren’t there to rescue them.
So Rich, I think it is a bit of redemption and a bit of “man of faith vs man of science”.
I like Leah’s idea that Juliette will break Sawyer’s heart.
When we see Juliette looking distraught over Jack and Kate’s return, I assumed she was worried that Kate was coming back to ruin what she had with Sawyer. But watching again last night, I was struck by the wamrness of her embrace of Jack when he showed up at her doorstep. What if her angst was over her unresolved feelings for Jack, not Sawyer’s for Kate? Jack and Sawyer will obviously be pitted against one another…certainly an opportunity for Juliette to choose sides.
It’s a small thing nagging me, but it seems to strain the fabric of the story. Why were Jack, Kate, and Hurley surprised when told that they were back in time (1977). They all arrived in the Dharma VW bus, freshly painted and running well. Hurley, especially, would have recognized it as the old beat-up van he’d found and used to come to the rescue back in 2004(?). What have I missed?
In the preview for He’s Our You next week, Sayid looks at Horace and some other Dharma man, and says “You’re all going to die you know” That is very wrong and obviously Sayid knows about the purge. I think, as much as I love Sayid and he’s my favourite, I think he’s going to try to change the past/future. And going at horribly drastic lengths to do so.
A few thoughts on questions people have raised.
1. The New Dock – I didn’t think that the dock blew up…the sub did. Or it could have been repaired if damaged. Maybe by the people in “The Temple” that were left. They also would be there to put out the boats for Ben’s return. I am also assuming they have been waiting for Ben’s return.
2. Juliet -I am convinced that Juliet is still Ben’s mole. She and Ben had a long conversation before she handcuffed herself to Kate. They were going over the tail end of a very large plan. Ben & the Others had already worked on the runway for the airplane. Ben must have let her in on a very long story and very big secret. She was told to act like she ‘re-deemed’ herself to the group after Claire’s implant went off causing her to be sick. We are under the impression that she may have switched sides and hates Ben, but that could still be a trick ~ even if partially true. She has stated that she is a “believer” in Jacob.
3. Sun – The technical reason that Sun did not go back with J/K/Hurley is that the circumstances are different and according to Hawking & Faraday “unpredictable”. If you look at it another way then perhaps J/K/Hurley should have landed w/ the plane, but flashed back due to the “unpredictableness”. To me it seems much more unpredictable that someone would flash off of an airplane to 1977 than to assume that just because 3 people did that 4 should. Or even 1 person should ever flash out of existence. If it were predictable then all would have crash landed. Perhaps Sun is the lucky one?
4. Where was Locke? – I like to think that Locke’s body was in the cargo area of the plane. He may have been trapped there until found…and his casket may not have even opened from the inside. The scene people are worrying about seems right after the crash when Ben / Sun / Frank bolt towards the other side of the small island. One of 2 things. He will be found soon by 316ers when rummaging through whats left of the plane, OR He will raise after 3 days of being dead on the island.
5. Why is Ben on the cot? – – Obviously many of the injured are taken to the buildings of the small island. While scouting they will soon find an unconcious Ben laying there since Sun whacked that SOB. ( Although I’m not letting go that he may be one of the good guys……..I love this show ).
Brian “NuckinFuts” ~ Atlanta, GA
RE : # 3 Above: Sorry…Sayid flashed too. It’s unpredictable, what can I tell ya.
It’s probably already been posted, but when Sun is talking to Christian in the house, behind her right shoulder, just after he says about their ‘long journey ahead of them’, you can see a woman sitting. I think this is either Claire or Charlotte, Claire because, well duh she’s hanging out with her dad, and Charlotte because the woman’s hair looks very red… Love the podcast 🙂
I am surprised at how few people are talking about the girl behind Sun in the Sun/Frank/Christian scene. I missed it at first…my wife saw it (kudos to her). Its weird…its almost like a mistake (i know its not). Like a PA standing there holding Damon and Carlton’s coffee and accidentally got in the shot. She has blonde hair but in my opinion doesnt look like Claire…although that would be the obvious guess at who it was. I’ve heard entire podcasts where the hosts nor any callers even mentioned it. I think just a lot of people missed it….like i said before, i did also at first.
On another note, here is an observation on Richard Alpert that I have not heard anyone mention or talk about either. When the the losties were flashies and jumping thru time, it seems that everyone they came in contact with thought they were contemporaries…until they flashed. And as we learned from Russo, whenever they flashed, apparently they disappeared. Thats also alluded to when sawyer is talking to Richard and mentions that a guy named Locke wandered into his camp and disappeared before his eyes when he met him years ago (and Richard seemed to agree).
But what is strange to me, is that in the one scene before that, after Locke got shot and Richard shows up….he is the only one who seems to realize that not only are they flashing, b/c he new they only had limited time…but he knew where they were going to flash to next b/c he told Locke that “i wont recognize you” next time i see you…therefore giving him the compass. That is astronomical more amount of knowledge and insight than anyone else they come into contact with. Can u imagine Russo or any others saying something like that?
Its almost like in that instance…Richard was in a godspot of some kind…it seems he was aware of the whole picture (which plays into the theories of him being a pharoh, eternal, etc). He steps out of the character in the play and sits in the audience who knows it IS a play.
But then…when he sees locke next he’s back on the same level as everyone else who saw this guy disappear before his eyes. Then in the future scenes with Sawyer he also appears to be someone with limited knowledge as he is caught off-guard and somewhat impressed by what sawyer is telling him.
I dont know….seeing Im the only one asking such stupid questions…that could be telling in itself. I’m prepared to have missed the obvious.
Z
I completely agree with the unpredictability, I’ve mentioned that before as well.
However we know how the LOST universe is, more or less, and we know that things happen for a reason, so its possible that Sun has work to do in 2007.
I like your, Locke rising after 3 days. Thats bloody brilliant and scary! :0
xxxWEST-SAYIDxxx
The scene with Sun in GhostDharmaville creeped me out – but I agree with the camp who says they saw CLAIRE behind her when the door opened!
But what I don’t get it is why it is GhostDharmaville in the first place. Why would there be the dangling recruiting signs if it was the same timeline as before… I’m thinking that the TimeTravel stuff is more like the Back to the Future alternate timelines. It reminds me of BTTF#2 when Marty was in the Las Vegas Hill Valley. – although I don’t remember Sun going to Dharmaville during the 815-ers, she was always at the beach – or in the boat – never in the village.
Hello Ryan and Jen and all,
I tried to read all the comments, but man! 150+ is a bit tiring to do! So I’m going to point some stuff that maybe has already been discussed.
First, I think that Ethan was abducted from the others as a youngster (maybe not as a baby) by the Others before Ben joined them. That’s how he survived the purge and always acts like a very loyal Other. I came to this conclusion because I remember that since S1, the others have always been interested in young children (remember those two little kids that survived the 815 crash? I forgot their names) Probably Ethan was one of these “special children” and more as he was born on the island.
Second, I think it was a great joke from Sawyer to Jack how he assigned a janitor job. It was sort of a way of showing him who’s the boss now.
Third, Sun beating Ben after getting the info she needed was simply awesome. But on the other side, it shows how she’s gone evil and mad. Maybe when she meets with Jin again, she’ll become the nice and tender Sun that we remember.
Finally, what’s up with Hurley’s guitar case? They have been taking care of it everywhere and we don’t even know what it contains! I even remember a scene where we see Sawyer loading it up on the Dharma van, and I’m sure they showed that scene for a reason. I don’t think there’s a guitar inside, but can’t wait to see what will come out when they open it.
Anyway, love the podcast and everybody’s comments, too bad I don’t have the time to read all of them. I guess I’ll have to wait till the podcast comes out to have a summary for all of them.
Greetings from sunny Mexico!
Dupin-
You propose three theories why Sun didn’t flash back to 1977, but how about looking at it from another perspective: Why did Jack, Hugo, Kate, and Sayid flash back? Maybe it’s something special about Sun that kept her from flashing back or maybe it’s something special about the other four that caused them to flash back.
One other thought about Sun- she’s not the only one of our 815ers who’s not in 1977. The other one, whom some people think they saw the other night? Claire. And what do Claire and Sun have in common- they were both pregnant on the island and have both seen Christian.
One interesting thing about this episode that just occurred to me is that we are actually shown proof that the 815 survivors ARE capable of changing the future, at least in some small way. If there’s a framed photo of the 1977 crop of DHARMA recruits in abandoned New Otherton in 2007 with Hurley, Kate, and Jack in it, that means that they are at least leaving evidence that they were in the DHARMA initiative, so that’s changing history right there… Unless that picture was just conjured by the smoke monster/The Island/Jakob, or it existed before and no one ever stumbled upon it…
That’s pretty funny about the guitar case, Hector. Maybe Hurley stocked it with all the goodies he missed the first time he was stranded.
I am wondering about Sayid’s encounter with young ben. Based on what we’ve seen happen, in all the flashing through time, now b/w Daniel and Desmond, Locke and Alpert, and Locke and Widmore is it safe to say that 2007 Ben (who Sun has just knocked out and who is in the makeshift infirmary) now “remembers” having met Sayid (and probably Sawyer/LeFleur, Juliet, and the other returned 06’ers). Has this now newly happened event (so much for “whatever happened, happens”; since the whole rub there is what the ‘whatever’ is) implanted itself into 2007 Ben’s mind as a memory that he can no better distinguish as having just gotten there from whatever memories of his childhood he had when we (the audience) first met him in 2004?
And relatedly, I don’t think it was Ben who wanted the runway constructed back in season 3 but jacob. That is to say, I don’t think Ben, at that point, “knew” the future, though I do think Jacob did. Ben was probably just following orders and so then, in turn, ordered the Others to build the runway. If so, does this mean one characteristic Jacob has is that he does know the future, as in, he has been around the ‘spinning record’ of time at least a few times already?
Tom, I dunno. What happened happened. That photo was probably there in series 1, we just never saw it.
My Ben theory: I think he will turn out not to be the vicious little bastard we all think he is. That would be typical of the writers to give us a twist like that. I think things will happen that will force him to act as he does to get the O6 to where they need to be – back on the island. I think the losties will at least in part come to realize that and coach young Ben, giving him knowledge of the future. At least, one of them will. I also think some of the losties will join the others, maybe even be pitted against one another in the final battle. Ohhh, so exciting.
Greg in Honolulu Says:
It’s a small thing nagging me, but it seems to strain the fabric of the story. Why were Jack, Kate, and Hurley surprised when told that they were back in time (1977).They all arrived in the Dharma VW bus, freshly painted and running well. Hurley, especially, would have recognized it as the old beat-up van he’d found and used to come to the rescue back in 2004(?). What have I missed?
Because time travel is
1. not possible… as far as they or anyone but a few island folk know
2. not an expected part of their return to the island
3. not a normal occurrence (except for Greg apparently)
A van does not mean time travel… it could mean that they had 3 years to fix restore and paint a van. That is more likely than time travel. Also, there are several DI vans and jeeps.
so surprise is in order
Cudos to soko (re: Greg in Honolulu says:). But I think you go not far enough. Surprise? No. Shock would be in order, and I think J/K/H were far too nonplussed. For all the reasons soko lists. Perhaps it is simply a nod to the viewers, who have had to stomach this time travel nonsense a bit too much, and have had to accept it to keep the suspension of disbelief going. Any story involving time travel Becomes a story of time travel. Look, I love where this story has gone and what it is doing, but the story mechanism of time travel is cheap, unless it is time travel itself that is the subject. So, with that in mind, I will offer respect to the writers, and assume that the time travel is CENTRAL to the basic theme of the story.
Greg in Honolulu- If someone offers you a slinky tomorrow, it’s ok, we won’t expect you to think you’re back in the 60’s.
N-Futs: I too feel Juliet is a mole. However, I’ve been leaning toward the idea that she’s been a Widmore plant all along. The pivotal moment that indicates she knows far more than she’s letting on is when she has a conversation with Sayid by the creek bed just before she joins the beach camp.
Juliet says, “If I told you everything I know, you’d kill me.”
Maybe it’s her secret Other knowledge that prompts this, but maybe it’s her secret alignment as well.
To Hector: Is this the same “nice and tender” Sun that lied, blackmailed, and threatened murder in her own sordid back story? Who dragged her beloved into her Father’s dark world, fully aware of what that would mean, because she couldn’t abide the shame of his lowliness? Just wondering
Quick belated cudos also to MLE in Colorado, and Knives Monroe in Texas, for their posts on “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham”.
Ben is not the Bad Guy.
T. O’Quinn and M. Emerson should share the Emmy.
John Locke is God.
Kudos to you dear DocJKM
Has this, or hasnt this been the best season of LOST thus far?
Season 1 could have ended and it would have been triumphant in its own right! but.
I see it this way:
In every story, video game, movie, tv show, play, we have…THREE ACTS
3 acts in every story.
Your Beginning, your middle, and your end.
I see the series as such, Season 1 and 2 are ACT 1.
Season 3 and 4 is ACT 2
And obviously Season 5 and 6 is ACT 3.
Sincerely ‘Act 1’ is INCREDIBLE! And ‘Act 2’ is extraordinary in establishing where we are going. ‘Act 3’ is the end, and boy what a journey we are on!
So in my perspective, every ACT is amazing, but ACT 3 will be the best and most remembered.
But what do I know? I’m from Texas
xxxstraightedgexxx
xxxWEST-SAYIDxxx
Isn’t “He’s Our You” a concise definition of what it means to be a proxy? perhaps this next episode we’ll find out a little more (with Christian narrating) about what it meant for each of the characters to have a proxy when returning to the island. Perhaps Sun, Frank, Ben didn’t go to 1977 because something was askew.
-2008
Do we even know if Sun, Frank, and Ben are in 2008? Night changed to day after the flash that took the other 4 off the plane. Perhaps they’re not even where we think they are. If there are Dharma signs littered everywhere, what if they’re in the 90s just after the Purge (but if it’s the 90s, how could Christian be there?)?
-Aaron and Sun
Sun’s failure to return to 1977 must relate to some purpose she needs to serve to help bring Aaron and Ji Yeon back to the Island. Perhaps since Aaron was in Sun’s custody when they left the Island, they would need each other to get back. There are some problems with this thinking (all the Oceanic 6 + Frank left with Desmond, and they were able to get back just fine without Desmond.) It just seems fitting that if Aaron doesn’t come back to the Island at the right time, Sun won’t either.
Then, does Sun know where Aaron is? Sun intimated that Aaron would be Ji Yeon’s playmate in The Little Prince. She has been his caretaker before and took Aaron off the Island physically to the freighter. Perhaps Ben was trying to steal Aaron because Widmore (through Sun) also wanted him for some nefarious purpose.
-Juliet.
It’s not that Juliet can’t be trusted, it’s just that she has always been manipulated by Ben to do his bidding. She wants to get off the Island more than anything else. Ben knows this and dangles the carrot: if you follow orders, I may let you go.
Hi Hector,
I really like your idea that Ethan is abducted as a child, which would lead to his being an Other and escaping the Purge. It seems though that the balance between the Others and the DI is governed by such a strict set of rules that I don’t think they would just swoop in and grab the infant without proper justificiation.
I’m wondering if his kidnapping would be the result of some violation of the Truce that we have yet to see. Perhaps our Losties are responsible for something happening that demands a more serious kind of “justice” from Richard’s people – namely, the exchange of one life for another instead of just one body for another body (like with Paul’s corpse). What do you think?
And now I’m glad I didn’t know
The way it all would end, the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance
I could have missed the pain
But I’d have had to miss the dance – Garth Brooks (The Dance)
These lyrics remind me of John Locke saying that he wouldnt go back and change the past because it brought him to where he is now.
Sorry if it’s off topic. But thats how I feel in regards of said Time Travel.
Rebecca makes a great point noting how Daniel says from the beginning that we cannot change what has already happened in the future, and that means our folks were ALWAYS with the DI in 1974/77. Still, that blows my mind — what does that in fact mean re the TT issue? And Tom, I’m not sure that our gang leaving a photo proves that they changed history, unless I’m missing something. All it says to me is the they were in both sets of time, as well as other periods of time, and all of that is part of reality. (Help, anyone?)
Also, one of the O6 has NOT made it back to the island, right? I.e., Aaron? Does that mean that destiny can’t play out the way Benry needs it to?
Re the romantic side of things, it was palpable that Jack and Juliet have a serious thing for each other and so do Sawyer and Kate- I’m always amazed at how filmmakers can get that feeling across. Perhaps Juliet and Sawyer hooked up so J could help Sawyer evolve into a kinder, gentler person– and perhaps all of Jack’s travails have made him a slightly less hot-headed guy, readier to be with Juliet… We’ll see, I guess! ?
Well if I had things my way, Sawyer and Jack would end up together. Hugo and Juliet would get married and have babies. Sayid and Kate would be together.
but what do I know, I’m from Texas.
I rewatched the episode today, and something funny struck me about the scene with Jack and Sawyer. I now think Jack’s motivation for going there was to find out what’s going on and what the plan is. Sawyer thought Jack was there to do the white man dance again and challenge his alpha male status. So, when Sawyer basically asserts himself and says he’s in charge, Jack just says ‘OK.’ I interpreted Jack’s unresponsiveness to Sawyer’s charges of poor leadership as a tacit concession to Sawyer. Jack doesn’t really defend his decisions except to say, “I got us off the island.” His ‘OK’ remark to me indicates his attitude is “You want the job of leader? Cooll, you can have it. I’ll be over here sweeping the floor.”
Also, I wonder if Christian really is there physically and could be a manifestation of Ol’ Smokey. Smokey was rustling the brush before Christian appeared and appears to be in the house when he is talking to Frank and Sun. Could this explain why he can’t help Locke with standing up and getting the wheel? Maybe Ol’ Smokey wasn’t holding the lantern in the wheel cave but simply projecting the appearance and light from one. Or, maybe there are other limits to what Ol’ Smokey can and can’t do. Maybe Mr. Cloud Monster couldn’t help Locke to the wheel because it’s like kryptonite to ‘him.’
Anyway, just some thoughts. I look forward to this weekend’s podcast.
I think that Sun and Ben didn’t go back to 1977 since they were both on the island before. Sun is Chang’s daughter! You can’t run into yourself in your own past that’s why Ben and Sun didn’t flash. If Miles was Chang’s baby he wouldn’t have flashed back. That’s my theory.
I also think that the incident is going to have to do with the electromagneticsm going off like it did when Desmond pulled turned the key. That’s what will kill Horace and make Chang loose his arm. That’s what will make someone have to type in the numbers every 108 minutes to release the energy.
I had some audio problems during the scene that shows Hugo, Kate and Jack hanging out waiting on Sawyer to get back. Kate turned to Jack and said…something… and he responded with something like, “…she left that part out.”
Can anyone clue me in on that discussion between the two of them?
It was a great episode!!
Thanks!
Daryl
I just don’t buy that the past cannot be changed. I get that Desmond could try and try and try to keep Charlie alive but he had to die somehow…but lets remember that he did keep him alive long enough to be a self sacrifice for Claire and aaron et al. In other words- if you are supposed to die you will- but there is some control we still have over our destiny. I really think it means something that it is clearly 30 years ahead because they told us that- but othersville looks like boarded up dharmaville…something is changed by their time travel.
and guess what—that is what makes the show interesting…that they can play with what happened in the past…if they can affect nothing in the past then why the heck are we watching? In other words- in 2006 that photograph of the new recruits would not have Hurley etc in it…but now it does. They are there to “make things right”. I suppose one could argue that they are there to help things happen the way they are supposed to…like Desmond was there to help Charlie live long enough to enable the connection to the outside world- thereby revealing the Islands presence to Widmore and Penny.
BTW it would be cool if posts were numbered…I can never remember where I left off when I sign back in to see what everyone is saying… I mean I could say “I left off at Knives Monroe’s post” but that wouldn’t help because Knives is like our glue holding other posts together!! : )
I just don’t buy that the past cannot be changed. I get that Desmond could try and try and try to keep Charlie alive but he had to die somehow…but lets remember that he did keep him alive long enough to be a self sacrifice for Claire and aaron et al. In other words- if you are supposed to die you will- but there is some control we still have over our destiny. I really think it means something that it is clearly 30 years ahead because they told us that- but othersville looks like boarded up dharmaville…something is changed by their time travel.
and guess what—that is what makes the show interesting…that they can play with what happened in the past…if they can affect nothing in the past then why the heck are we watching? In other words- in 2006 that photograph of the new recruits would not have Hurley etc in it…but now it does. They are there to “make things right”. I suppose one could argue that they are there to help things happen the way they are supposed to…like Desmond was there to help Charlie live long enough to enable the connection to the outside world- thereby revealing the Islands presence to Widmore and Penny.
BTW it would be cool if posts were numbered…I can never remember where I left off when I sign back in to see what everyone is saying… I mean I could say “I left off at Knives Monroe’s post” but that wouldn’t help because Knives is like our glue holding other posts together!! : )
RE: MLE in Colorado : “BTW it would be cool if posts were numbered…I can never remember where I left off when I sign back in to see what everyone is saying… I mean I could say “I left off at Knives Monroe’s post” but that wouldn’t help because Knives is like our glue holding other posts together!! : )
Perhaps along the way down the board people could voluntarily post “Iteration 175132”, “Iteration 175133” about every 10 posts or so. Haha –
Rich in Cleveland : RE: Agreeing that Juliett is a mole. Good point…she may have allegieances that even go further back than Ben. Hmmm…I always thought that the Ben / Richard / Ethan recruitment process was a little odd and that a smart scientist of her caliber would be unlikely to buy into their pitch. Maybe she had other reasons, not just “Other” reasons….lame joke, huh?
NuckinFuts-Check the time of the last post you were reading or the last post you posted before signing off and jot it down. Works for me.
here are my thoughts: i think Radzinski is going become a pivotal part of the show. i can see him somehow getting knowledge of future events (probably telling young Ben) and doing everything in his power to make these events come to pass.
i believe he was the one who set up the self-destruct code in the Flame (Enter 77) and used 77 as a reference to the year the O6 “entered” when they returned to the island, possibly as a clue for Locke to use later.
also, the drawing on the Swan hatch door i believe was more for Locke’s benefit and his suicide/death i think will end up being something that he knew he had to do to keep Kelvin from killing Desmond when he arrives.
thoughts?
Darryl,
Kate asked Jack if the lady who told him the plan to get back to the island mentioned that they would go back 30 years earlier. That is when Jack said “no, she left that part out”.
MLE – I agree, why use time travel as a plot device if time can’t be altered or changed? Damon and Carlton do have the “back to the future” rule where they don’t want to be able to go back in time to purposely change the future, they don’t Sayid going back and saving Shannon, etc. Because they feel it would be cheating the audience. But of course there will always be some changes to the future because the Oceanic 6 were not there the first time around to see how things unfolded, they don’t know they are actually changing the future. Ethan would have been born whether Juliet delivered him or not.
But on the other hand, My real question is did she always deliver him? Was she always meant to be there? If they were already there and did all these things why didn’t it change the future the first time? Why are things changing now like Dharmaville? Were these people always in the past or just visiting it for the first time now. One minute I have one theory and then the next I change my mind. Does Charlotte know Korean because Jin taught her? If that is how she learned it why didn’t she remember Jin?
These are the questions that give me headaches and bring me to visit this board. You all have such good theories, but on the other hand, some of you are so convincing that I have to rethink my theories.
I hope that last post made sense, I just got out of work, so I am a bit tired.
I’m going with MLE in Colorado- Othersville at the time of the Ajira crash looks just like boarded up Dharmaville, so the ’77 Losties DID change the future somehow. Although, I am also of the belief that they ALWAYS were supposed to be in ’77, otherwise, how would Ethan even have existed? When Amy went into labor, Juliet knew that both Amy and the baby would die without a C-section, and the intern guy said flat-out he couldn’t do one. Juliet always was supposed to deliver Ethan. So I think that they are responsible for certain things we already know to be true (Ethan), but also are informed enough to have the capacity to change elements of the future, i.e. the “Incident” or the Purge.
On this debate about whether the past can be changed, I think the point that Damon and Carleton are making when they say that they are “paradox averse” is that the events of the past cannot be altered by going back in time. It always happened the way it happened. The timeline is very rigid, and we as observers just do not see the entirety of all events.
(This is in some sense like The Prisoner of Azkaban: Harry and Hermione didn’t change the past, they merely acted to ensure that the time line synchronized correctly with the present — when they use the time-turner — to the way it always was. For example, Buckbeak was never executed like the events seemed to indicate. We simply didn’t observe everything we needed to realize that Harry and Hermione were always in two places at once and Buckbeak was never killed a first time. There was never a *first* or *second* time, there was only one event. We the reader and they the agents are just biased by perception.
Also, had Harry and Hermione not followed Dumbledore’s instructions and returned promptly to the infirmary at nearly the same moment they left using time-travel, the whole world wouldn’t have unraveled, it just could have been obvious to others that someone had used time travel and that the perception of a linear time line of events is false.)
So in this sense, it’s more important that the time-line be rigid. But this is not to say that the time-line must be linear. That’s just an false assumption due to perception bias.
Similarly, some of the Oceanic Six, Sawyer, Juliet, et al. are always in the Dharma Initiative. The picture of the recruits of 1977 has always existed since 1977. We as the observer (and the Oceanic Six) have just not had all the information we needed to realize this.
The only paradox is in our perception, not in the time line.
One more thing. Given that the Oceanic Six are in 1977 through time travel, there must be some point in the timeline of events where they go back in time. In this way, what happened rigidly in the past (the presence of Jack, Juliet, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, etc. in 1977) must synchronize in some way with the past so that there is a point where the timeline doubles back over itself.
Brandon is exactly right, when the timeline isn’t linear, the future must be in accord with events of the past. Course correcting is making sure the timeline matches up if people are dipping their feet in time travel.
This is where course-correction is important. Ms. Hawking says that some things are preordained and the universe course corrects to ensure certain things happen. No matter how hard Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, and anyone else who time travels try, they will in some way be forced to go to the place where the timeline says they are. If they hadn’t gotten on 316, they just would have gotten back to 1977 another way. It cannot be changed because it has already happened that 1977 occurred with them in it. The universe must find a way to bring them back to that time. The past isn’t changed. The past occurs and the future must accommodate (course correct) what happens in the past in some way. The future isn’t changed, nor is it preordained, but there are time posts and events that must occur.
ugggh, I contradicted myself a bit. What I should have said: The future is not preordained in it’s entirety, but when you dip your feet in the time travel wading pool, some events become time posts that are required to happen in order to make the timeline line up and ensure you get where you need to be. Course correction makes this happen
What is it with the number 3? Desmond pushed the button for three years before the 815ers hit the beach, Juliette had been there for three years also, the time elapsed for the Oceanic 6 and the rest of the group to re-unite was……three years. Coincidence?
Let me begin where I should have. Jen and Ryan, excellent work, enthusiasm, and dedication. Without your vision and effort we would all be posting somewhere else, or not at all. I have enjoyed your podcasts for quite some time, and only this week have taken the time to discover this blog. Thank you.
Doug: Your posts re: time travel have the eloquence of logic, and are thus approachable, and attractive. Nice.
I have been feeling that I might be missing something significant, and I rewatched ‘Jeremy Bentham’, or started to. I found something I think is very significant. When Whidmore confronts Locke in the Tunisian infirmary (and I do think the woman there is more that slightly familiar), he gives a very brief history of his (C. Whidmore’s) time on the island. I urge anyone interested to review that scene.
Locke met him in ’54, on the island, and CW is quite young. CW states in the infirmary that he was leader of ‘the others’ for over 3 decades, until “forced” off by Benjamin Linus. 54+30=1984 (can fudge a bit here). I do not think Ben is in a position in 1977 to “force” anyone off the island.
Ergo- Charles Whidmore is on the island, with ‘the others’ (“hostiles”), in 1977. (‘Right now’ on the show)
It may just be me, but I think THAT is as significant to the development of developments as anything so far discussed, and I am just getting my mind around what that might possibly portend.
Anyone?
Hey Josh,
I like your theory of Sun being Chang’s baby and therefore she and Ben could not go back to the 70’s since the new selves cannot meet with the old ones. We can be sure that they landed in 2007, as when we see the marquee of “30 years ago” the flash goes straight to the 1977 DI times.
Going back to the Sun/Ben theory not being in 1977, there’s still something that goes around in my mind. If they couldn’t co-exist with their younger selves, then everyone on the plane should have been transported to 1977. You might say “yes, but the other people on the plane had never been on the island before”. There’s where Frank comes in. He had been on the island, and he wasn’t around during the DI times…….or was he?
Cheers everyone and it’s great to read your posts!
The Purge is the anomoly in the time line (was never supposed to have happened) and the crash of flight 815 and what has followed (all of what we now as the series “LOST”) is what the universe is using to course correct that event.
hmmm, how about this. The losties get outed in 1977 or a bit after as time travellers. The incident happens. I think the ‘incident’ is when they finally get through the wall and into the frozen donkey wheel chamber. Something happens then. I think Candle gets his arm chopped off when it gets turned and wedged in there. Either that or a bear chomps it off (oh yes, I like that one). With the incident, someone gets turned into Jacob? Daniel or maybe Jack even? Ben however must kill all the Dharma, because they know and have seen the Losties, and it is imperative that they not not interfere with the losties comming to the island in the future, and the only way to do it is to kill all the witnesses. Young children not included. Young Ben must then make it his mission to see that the future transpires as he has been told it will. So he is not all bad, just really bitter, and will use whatever means he needs to to achieve the objective, whatever it ends up being, because it is really, really important. Maybe it is as important as a change in the Valenzetti parameters?
The whole “can’t exist with yourself in the same time line” is nonsense. They are in 1977, and on the mainland, they exist. I still think Miles is Chang’s kid. I think they made that abundantly apparent. Not sure why (evil) Sun and Lapidas are not. Lock did not flash cause he was dead, and we saw with Charlotte that you don’t flash when dead. Hmmmm. All so strange.
The fact that Amy’s child turns out to be Ethan (who we know will eventually be an Other) makes me wonder whether Amy (and Paul) have some kind of connection to the Others. Things to consider in this regard: 1) Paul’s necklace (the ankh), which connects him to the presumably indigenous statue and was prominently shown several times (and caused a major fight between Horace and Amy); 2) the fact that Paul and Amy were outside the sonar fence–something Horace never questions; 3) the fact that Paul was executed (and Amy was about to be executed) by the Others, which was a clear violation of the truce on the part of the Others but something that has never been explained in the plot or questioned by any of the characters;4) the fact Alpert wanted Paul’s body (he gives one reason for why he wants the body, but perhaps there is another); 5) the fact that Amy is shown to be a little devious, what with the earplug incident; and finally 6), getting back to my first point, the fact that Amy’s son, Ethan, turns out to be an Other. It is possible that during the purge, the Others decide to assimilate rather than kill all the children (which I guess would be in keeping with their early chlid collecting behaviors). But overall, there seemed to be more to the Paul and Amy incident than has yet been addressed. It could be something significant, or it could just be bad writing….
In terms of the awful state of New Otherton when Frank and Sun arrive: I am not sure that the destruction we see is just from Keamy’s misadventures three years back. Many people have assumed that Sun and Lapidas are in the present day, and the one clear reason to think this is the presence of the airplane runway. But I think it’s possible that we don’t know yet what timeframe they are really in. It seems clear that something is about to go awry back in the 70s (Jack *really* does not want to clean toilets while Sawyer reads books!). I believe there may yet be some new outcomes–and that there might be a conflict coming that dismantles New Otherton that hasn’t happened in the previously set timeline. This idea just repeats what others have already said here; just because the universe corrects itself eventually, doesn’t mean that everything has to be the same along the way.
Finally, why were Jack, Hurley, and Kate on Ben’s “list” at the end of season two (and am I remembering correctly that they were the only three)? Is it possible he had already seen their picture in the Dharma clubhouse–the three new recruits from the class of 77? Like most coincidences in the cross-temporal plot, the time travel both creates an explanatory possibility and yet embeds within that possibility its own impossibility (or more simply put, present us with a time traveling contradiction): i.e., how could Ben know they were there in 1977 yet they didn’t remember they were there yet? Still, it seems a significant coincidence.
Thanks for your podcast Ryan and Jen. You do a really great job.
Jacob theory….
When Sawyer and the new others arrived, they took on new names. Daniel will take the name Jacob.
Daniel has “vanished”, probably because of the incident, and as such, he’s trapped in his current “state”, and Ben knew about the whole thing since he was there when it happened as a child.
Here’s something that I only just picked up while showing my daughter the ‘shadowy girl behind Sun’ scene. The 1977 photo that Christian shows Sun and Frank is clearly wrong. In the photo Hurley is shown looking directly at the camera but when they immediately cut to the photo-taking scene, Hurley is very obviously turned towards Kate, asking her what Namaste means. You can hear the camera go click while his head is turned. What does that mean? Is there an element of fakery about what Christian is showing them?