Blog Rewatch: “Because You Left” and “The Lie”

As proposed in last week’s thread and mentioned in our latest podcast, several blog regulars are organizing a re-watch of the two-part Season Five premiere of “LOST,” which includes “Because You Left” and “The Lie.” As we endure a one-week break during the show’s final season, it should be fun and interesting to revisit the past knowing what we know now.

Some helpful links:

Comment below and join the conversation!

174 Responses to “Blog Rewatch: “Because You Left” and “The Lie””

  1. gene e says:

    Dude.

  2. Beth from Houston says:

    Just watched “Because You Left”.

    Questions:

    1. What did Ben pull out of that air conditioning vent?
    2. What was Ben organizing with Jill the butcher? Did he know what was going on with MIB and Jacob? Did he have some other objective in coming back to the island? He tells Jill that if they don’t get Locke’s body back then “God help us all.” What did he think he was going to accomplish by bringing back John?
    3. What did Daniel look at in his journal that made him certain that Desmond could change things by going to see his mother?

    In general it seems like they wanted us to think that Ben was still in control of things and knew what was going on…only in the end of Season 5 we find out he didn’t know anything…confusing!!

  3. LReene says:

    @Beth from Houston – In these episodes, it was Eloise who told Ben “Then God help us all”, in response to Ben’s question about what would happen if he couldn’t get them all to go back to the Island. But……… 1). Jill did already know what Ben had in the van for her to watch (John’s Body). and ….. 2). Ben told Jill the butcher that if anything happened to Locke’s body, everything they were about to do wouldn’t matter at all.

    Ben also told Jack to pack anything that he wanted because he was NEVER coming back. All indications in my book that Ben knew a whole lot more than what we are being led to believe now.

    As for what Ben was retrieving from behind the register, my guess would be that it was the gun he was going to use to kill Penny. He told Jack that he was checking out (so it must have been his room). I’m going to take a look at it one frame at a time a little later tonight and if I can see anything, I will post it. But I’m not so sure they even showed what it was that he had.

  4. LReene says:

    @Beth from Houston – Well, they didn’t show exactly what it was that Ben took out from behind the register in the Motel room. Other than it was a box or package of some kind, wrapped in what appears to be a plaid material. From the looks of it’s size, it appears to be something maybe 1 ft square by 6″ or so high. He put it in the pack he was carrying. I guess we’ll have to keep an eye out for it in future re-watch episodes.

  5. greenberry says:

    Okay, LReene and You All ~ I’ve rewatched S5-1 & S5-2 with your theory in mind (Locke = Jacob; Jack = MIB), and I could see subtle clues potentially pointing this way (or other ways too):

    Richard to Locke: “The only way to save the island, John, is to get your people back here” and “You’re gonna have to die, John.” Richard has been shown to be connected to Jacob, by being given instructions by him. Therefore, it makes sense that Jacob is in need of Locke to sacrifice himself for the island (and replace Jacob?). Of course, so far MIB has taken Locke over (I believe this is due to that Jack did not comply in time to get everyone back to the island). Could Locke be resurrected now that he is near death in the FSW, and return to his destiny of replacing Jacob?

    Ben to Jack: “You’re NEVER coming back!” This could indicate that Jack will be in service of the island forevermore (if Ben the liar is to be trusted), and I suppose that could be in the service of MIB ~~ Also, it is Jack that convinces everyone to lie (supposedly to protect the other Losties from Widmore), and this causes many problems and does not sound too Jacob-ish ~ However, I believe he becomes remorseful about this, and now WANTS to return to the island (to represent who??)

    But I still find it terribly confusing to figure out where Ben and Widmore and Richard fit in…

    Widmore is REALLY POMPOUS!! “I WILL be respected, Sun!” He is terribly obnoxious as a young man, even. I can’t recall if Widmore has EVER mentioned either Jacob or Smokie (wish I had a better memory!). Also, Initially Widmore wants Desmond to stay way from the island (to protect his daughter), and now in season 6 he brings him to the island himself.

    Ben has mentioned Jacob often (although there is obviously resentent there!). He is very involved: being sneaky and self-serving, killing Locke, and getting Jack and the other “candidates” organized to return to the island with Locke’s body. “Keep him safe, Jill, because if you don’t everything we’re about to do won’t matter at all”

    Best line (among many best lines) ~ Hurley: “I need a cool code name.”

    The actor playing Aaron is the curtest ever! Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6 ~ will he have a future purpose?

    Hurley crying when he tells his mother the whole island story touched me more this time around; it is nice to see that, in their way, his parents are caring and really love him.

  6. LReene says:

    @greenberry – I guess some of the things you have mentioned here is partly where I drew my theory from.

    ie: It seemed to be very important to “everyone in the know” to get Locke’s dead body back to the island. Why???? So that MIB could take over his likeness? That for some reason just doesn’t jibe with me. Especially when they are all supposedly such loyal followers of Jacob. Now admittedly, MIB was the one who took over Locke’s likeness, but personally I don’t think that was their intent for bringing him back. I think their intent was that his dead body would be a vessel for Jacob. Could it maybe end up that the sideways Locke ends up going back to the island and reinhabits the corpse of dead Locke? Maybeeeeeeeee lol

    So where does that leave Jack then? If he is leaving for the island and can NEVER come back……….. the only replacement I can think of would be the next MIB.

    One additonal note……. taking this scenario into Season 6. I think the writers/producers are trying very hard to muddy the waters between a “Candidate”, and a “Recruit”. The way I read it, a “Candidate” is someone to replace Jacob. Where a “Recruit” is someone to be on team MIB. In the last episode “The Last Recruit”, if Jack was indeed this “Last Recruit”, then that would rule him out from being “The Candidate” to replace Jacob. Right??

    Of someone from “You All Everybody” would like to shoot down any (or all) of what I’ve said, that would be fine with me πŸ™‚

  7. Bonita in Atlanta says:

    Anybody else find it hard to stop at just one or two episodes when rewatching?

    Anyway, my thoughts from seeing “Becasue You Left” again:

    I still wonder why Pierre has so many different names, are they just Aliases? If so to what purpose?

    When Jack says, “I don’t see that happening” to Ben regarding getting the other 4 of the Oceanic 6 (They assume Hurley is there for the taking) it directly echoes Kate saying this to MiL in this season.
    It still bothers me that Jack never asks Ben why they have to go back in Season 5 and now in Season 6 he has the opportunity to ask MiL but drops is inquiry just before this would logically come up.

    I have always wondered if Ben actually knew what turning the Wheel would do? So it’s hard to read him when he is asking Jack, if he knew what happened to the others when he left?

    My theory of the Island being at least as significant a character as our Black and White players was reinforced here when Richard says to Locke, “The Island will do the rest” I think it is more than a matter of Faith.

    How does Daniel know the rules don’t apply to Desmond?

  8. greenberry says:

    Good discussion already! ~ I’m loving it

    @ Bonita ~ Yes, hard to stop! Are we addicted to this show or what?! Good questions re: Ben and Daniel — Ben states somewhere in S5 to Sun I think “Yes, I lied, that’s what I do.”

    @ Beth ~ Yes, Ben is every which way

    @LReene ~ I’m with you on the Locke reclaiming himself from MIB idea, just not sure about Jack yet… but I like your question about candidates vs. recruits

    Be careful about ever starting a sentence with “We can’t even…” ala Frogurt (wow that Neil was a wound-up dude)

  9. mle in Colorado says:

    This is so much fun. I haven’t had a chance to rewatch yet….but plan to and love reading your comments. I have to admit.. @laReene I thought you sounded a bit loopy before…but now I see what you mean. The thing is…its not hard to see our old buddy Locke as Jacob…he always felt he was there for a purpose and loved the Island etc. But its harder to see Jack as MIB…I suppose because he doesn’t seem evil enough…and of course it begs the discussion about who is really evil vs non-evil…and I don’t want to end up getting in trouble here…but I liked the comments made earlier about the perception of evil. (Was that @greenberry? I can’t remember…but it was called out as political..but I saw the main point that was being made: That evil can be subjective and a point of view..and in my pov Jack doesn’t seem “smokey” enough.) Anyway…thanks for putting it out there.

  10. KK says:

    Just watched Because You Left. I didn’t see Jill the butcher or an air conditioning vent or what Ben had behind a register — am I watching the wrong episode? Just let me know…

    I thought it was interesting that Miles’ dad says (when he gets taken down to where the crew is drilling), “There are rules, rules that cannot be broken.” Somehow I think the Dharma Initiative (or at least Marvin) knows the big picture, too.

    Favorite line: Hurley saying to Sayid, “Maybe if you ate more comfort food, you wouldn’t have to go around shooting people.” lol

    Ok, come clean you guys! Did you want to rewatch this because Sawyer is shirtless the whole time??? πŸ˜‰

  11. KK says:

    Just started The Lie… answered my own question, woopsie. Jill the butcher, the vent, etc… it’s all in The Lie.

    More later…

  12. MPEW05 says:

    Why did Jack have to put his father’s shoes on Locke?

  13. LReene says:

    @KK – Yeah, it seems the “meat” of the Season Opener was in the 2nd hour, “The Lie”.

    @mle in Colorado – Exactly! The POV on who is good and who is evil is the kicker in trying to envision Jack as MIB. But as I pointed out in a previous post, if there has to be a good/evil-God/Devil aspect to it, then MIB position of “All are corruptable” fits in more with God like of thinking than the Devil. If we can get past the good/evil-God/Devil, then either could be either. Make sense?

    Sorry, kind of rushed in trying to explain my thoughts. Have to go to work this morning. Bummer. lol Hopefully this thread will have lots to read by the time I get home tonight πŸ™‚

  14. Carol from Boston says:

    I am watching the shows tomorrow, but I love reading your comments first because now I will have extra details to look for when watching the episode.

  15. Carol from Boston says:

    I also read the comments from when the show first aired, we know so much more now. I saw some familiar posters but also some people that must not post anymore. Only about 35 comments for that episode, my how times have changed.

    At that time I know I used to listen and I didn’t go to the board, I think I emailed Jen instead. Like others I felt too imidated to post. But once I started I realized how friendly everyone was, and I was hooked. So for all you people on the fence, come post with us and join the fun.

    Off for a crazy busy day. Have a great day everyone. If I do have a flash sideways double, I could sure use your help with my schedule today. πŸ™‚

  16. greenberry says:

    Good morning y’all! Love the sunny voices here and of course the banter.

    Still mulling over the Ben line to Jill (she seems mysterious too!) about needing Locke safe (and dead) to bring back for his, or rather Eloise’s, mission… It begs the questions: Who is Ben working for? and who is Eloise working for? And are either of them good or evil or both or neither and/or self-serving??

    Thanx for the support, mle, re: my “evil” discussion ~ I absolutely meant for it to be Lost-focused (but throwing in politics, while being illustrative, was a mistake since it can push unnecessary buttons with fellow posters) ~ Interestingly the writers threw in a line about going back in time to remove Hitler (evil) ~

    we have seen A LOT of pettiness, selfishness, lying, manipulation and killing and attempted killing… from Ben and Widmore for sure ~ things seem to get a lot more grey with Jacob and MB ~ Jacob allows (causes?) Nadia’s death and he taunts Ben into killing him (in the name of allowing choices) ~ MIB/MIL manipulates with promises, throws Desmond down a well, organizes the death of Jacob ~ no wonder we don’t know (for sure) what is what!!

    In Season 6, we ponder Jack’s purpose in going back in time for a “do-over” — he wanted a second shot with Kate? He wanted to bring back those that had gotten killed? He wanted to remove evil? He simply wanted to block out the last three years? He certainly seems to regret his choice afterwards.

    In retrospect in Season 5, we analyze the purpose of Jack leading the Oceanic 6 off the island ~ previously, he and Locke were in constant conflict… Locke the believer in fate and destiny and Jack the pragmatist that just wanted to get home ~ then his life falls apart and he eventually becomes convinced that he must return to the island with the coaxing of Ben and more importantly the post-death coaxing of Locke

    So back to Ben and Eloise (and Widmore) and their motivations for getting the Oceanic Six (or some semblance of it) to return to the island… Ben ‘seems’ well-meaning and Eloise seems all-knowing and they both seem panicky (Widmore, in the next episode Jughead, wants Desmond to stay away from the island and simply keep his daughter safe ~ why and when does he change his mind?) When watching the first time around, it seemed like Ben and Eloise are both working for good, for Jacob (if he is good)? Now that we are seeing Season 6 and we know that Eloise is depserate for her son Daniel to be alive, and Ben killed Jacob, but was supposedly transformed through his encounter with Ilana. Anyhoo… must run, but more thoughts to come after You all add you 2 + 2+ 2 + 2…. cents

  17. Melissa in Minnesota says:

    Will be rewatching tonight, but the discussion so far reminds me of one of my biggest unresolved mysteries: who are the Others anyway? Ben seems to have such vast resources at his disposal, even down to an off-island operative who conveniently runs a butcher shop (so handy for storing corpses). Where does this power come from and to what end is it used?

  18. KK says:

    In The Lie, when Ben is talking to Jack about packing, says, “If there’s anything in this life you want, pack it in there, because you’re never coming back.” THIS life. That has a whole new meaning now that we’re in Season 6! Ben still seems like he knows more than the rest of them in Season 5 — does he know about alternate universes?

    Two times “then god help us all”: 1. In Because You Left, Miles’ dad says it when talking about what could be released if they drill too far. 2. Eloise says it when talking about Ben getting everyone back to the island. Interesting how we’ve heard that phrase so many more times since.

    Speaking of Eloise… several discussions ago, there was talk of her double startburst broach. In The Lie, that pedulum she’s working with makes several starbursts with chalk lines. I don’t have a theory here, I’m just making connections in imagery — seeing those starbursts being drawn by that machine holds a lot more weight in this rewatch.

    It’s also interesting to me that she’s scribbling frantically on a chalkboard, much like Daniel is at Oxford when Desmond comes to visit. Makes me wonder if she did get a hold of his notebook after she accidently shot him on the island… She’s definitely working on some pretty involved equations.

    One last thing: Another testament to Darlton’s intimate grasp of pop culture. Cheech Marin, as he’s sneaking Sayid past the police that are staked in front of the house, waves nervously and says, “Officers.” Anyone who’s seen Cheech and Chong movies has to get a chuckle out of that.

  19. greenberry says:

    Another quickie…

    @ KK ~ great observations! (starburst pattern, Eloise’s equations) and GOOD CALL re: “THIS life” & alternate universes ~ So you think perhaps Ben was aware that Jughead would eventually be released? Ben has been one of the most confounding and fascinating characters on all of TV!

    Still thinking about ‘good’ and ‘evil’ in relation to LOST and specifically to Ben and Widmore ~ is killing ever good or justified? Various reasons: accident, mercy, sacrifice, self-defense, revenge, anger, positioning, power ~ Both Ben and Widmore have done an awful of of it (or ordered it) ~ Ben has shown some remorse in causing his daughter to be shot ~ I can’t recall Widmore being remorseful about anything, but simply sad that his daughter hates him

    That’s it for now… just thoughts ~ I would like to see Locke rescue himself from MIB ~ I don’t like or trust him (or her) at this point.

  20. Bonita in Atlanta says:

    The Lie did seem just an extension of Because you Left.

    In the beginning of this episode Hurley swears to Sayid that if he agrees to Lie and not support the truth (him) he will not be there for Sayid when someday he needs something. I wonder how or if that will play a pivotal role in our story’s end?

    I think the fact that Ana Lucia stops Hurley and states she isn’t real, lends support for the Island Ghosts theories. I still think these “Ghosts” are manifestations of the Island and not really the Ghosts of the dead. I still don’t believe Michael appearing was a “trapped’ soul. His image and story were just the right one selected to influence Hurley at the time.

    I am left wondering what else Daniel was doing in those missing two hours? Anybody have any ideas?

    Also, I really thought the convenience store Chick said, “It looks like you ‘Eat’ Shi Zus” Which I thought was a bit funnier than ‘You heart’ them.

  21. LReene says:

    @Melissa in Minnesota – What is it about these 2 episodes that bring up that age old question? “Who are actually THE OTHERS”? After rewatching them for about the 3rd time this weekend, I found myself asking the same thing.

    We know from the time jumps in Season 5 that they were around in the 1950s, correct? At that time I think many assumed that they originally came on the Black Rock. Nope, Ab Aeterno squashed that idea. Only Richard arrived on the Black Rock, and according to the rest of what was revealed in Ab Aeterno, everyone else on the ship was killed by either the crew, or Smokey. So where DID they come from? If we knew that, it might go a long way in determining how much they all really knew, and what some of the hidden motives and knowledge of future events are. Personally I think Eloise’s “foreknowledge” goes a lot deeper than just reading Daniel’s manual. And Widmore as well as Ben seem to have lots of foreknowledge also.

  22. Annietoo says:

    @Bonita I think the number of names that Pierre Chang has had in the video tapes – indicates the number of time-lines we have to date.

  23. Annietoo says:

    I have always wondered why Sun was the only O6 member not to return to the losties’ time zone, and watching The Lie again, it made me notice that she was the only one that returned with the intention of seeking revenge for her husband’s presumed demise. Everyone else (except Sayid who went unwillingly) returned because they wanted to help the ones left behind.

  24. greenberry says:

    Just watched both epis again and it was striking to notice how ‘bright’ (shrewd, always one step ahead) Sun is, compared to Kate who is a lot more reactive, emotional, and lives life more instinctually ~ I like both of these characters, but found the difference interesting

    Speaking of shrewd, Ben in these two episodes really does come across as trustworthy, and full of well-meaning purpose ~ of course this is after he kills Locke and acts like he didn’t!

    Wow, the Others… I’m glad I’m on this board to read your ideas and conclusions, since I don’t have a clue so far about their identity

  25. Mattfromnd says:

    Just curious why those 2 episodes were chosen to rewatch and discuss again?

  26. greenberry says:

    It was due to LReene’s theory about Locke and Jack in the end game in relation to Jacob and MIB, and which of them (L/J) might inhabit who (J/MIL) when the final thud hits ~ Yann’s suggested we have a rewatch and discuss these two characters, and other stuff further… LReene picked the two episodes that related most to her theory, and several of us agreed to the plan

    What several of us are noticing is that rewatching Season 5 in particular is having way more significance to what is happening in Season 6 (in retrospect) and is helping with our final analysis of what we are seeing with these characters, as well as our last shot at theories

  27. LReene says:

    @greenberry – Only have one correction regarding your last post. LReene (me) is a “he”, not a her. πŸ™‚ Will forgive you though. lol

  28. greenberry says:

    Oops! Assuming anything is always dangerous!! My apologies!!! Aaahhh, the mysteries of this board!!!! A gathering of would be super interesting, seeing if any of the faces match our ideas of the faces.

  29. LReene says:

    @greenberry – No apologies necessary. Honest mistake. And you’re right, it would be fun to all meet.

  30. KK says:

    What’s interesting to me about watching these 2 episodes in particular is the contrast between “missions.” What I mean is, where we stand now in Season 6, the mission has been to get all the candidates off the island together, as opposed to these 2 particular episodes, where the mission is to get the Oceanic 6 back onto the island together.

    @greenberry — I agree, Ben has been one of the most “confounding and fascinating” characters on this show. Dear Henry Gale (remember way back when, when that’s who we think he is??)… so layered, so bug-eyed, so creepy, and at the same time you just want to hug him and tell him everything will be ok. Into that “confounding” group, I would like to throw Eloise and Widmore… I can’t wait to find out what they’re all about!! Here’s to hoping they’ll tell us.

    @many posters above — Who are The Others? Now that is one Lost question that I would love to have answered before the show is over… but if I don’t get the answer, I’ll be ok w/ always wondering. I think it’s (fairly?)clear that they aren’t necessarily a group that arrived all at once (like the Black Rock crew or our Losties). The fact that Ben joined them as a defunct Dharminian could signify that they are made up of “rebels” through the ages…? I don’t know. They’re definitely mysterious.

    @Bonita — much earlier, you ask if Ben actually knew what turning the wheel would do. I seem to remember that Ben turned the wheel knowing it would move the island, but I also seem to remember it wasn’t supposed to be Ben who turned the wheel?… but he again so desperately wanted to be important that he did it anyway. He was so convicted about moving/hiding/protecting the island… he was crying as he turned the wheel. But this stepping out of line (not following the rules maybe?) is what caused the skipping through time?

    So when Ben asks Jack, “Did he [Locke] tell you what happened to the others after you left?” it definitely feels like he’s fishing for how much Jack knows. And in typical Ben style, his fishing can be interpreted 2 ways: 1. He doesn’t know what happened and wants to see if Jack knows and might share it with him inadvertently, or 2. He knows exactly what happened and wants to see if Jack knows too. Similar to how he was always questioning Locke about Jacob. Do you know more than I do? Do you? Do you?

    Maybe I’m totally off… but I also remember that when Locke finally turns the wheel, he effectively stops the record from skipping… like he was supposed to be the one to turn the wheel all along?

  31. hammer says:

    maybe i’m way off here…i normally am, but i’ll throw this in the ring about who the others are. In the episode that was shown tonight, when jacob asks richard to be his “spokes man” to the other people he brings to the island. So..can we just assume then that..these are people then who he brought to the island..and mib didn’t kill after all these years? That is what I’m leaning towards since we are this late in the game..

  32. greenberry says:

    @ hammer ~ I had this same thought also, after watching the rerun of Ab Aeterno ~ interesting that Ricardo/Richard never saw himself as a ‘leader’

    @ KK ~ Yes, that sounds right that Locke was supposed to turn the wheel rather than in-it-for-himself Ben ~~ Another time Ben searches for info is in his chat with Locke (when he was about to hang himself) – Ben gets what he needs from Locke and carries on to strangle him – was this an evil or purposeful act on Ben’s part — Locke supposedly needed to die, but Ben interrupted Locke’s own process — Yet soon after he is on a mission coordinated with Eloise —- Yes, contrasting missions

  33. Bonita in Atlanta says:

    @Hammer – that is the way I am leaning, too. That Jacob brought the Others initially and possibly they somehow drew Dharma to the Island.

    @LReene – I like your thinking on the importance of the origin story for the Others being significant. It could also tie into explaining the vast Network Ben taps into off Island.

    @KK & Greenberry – Yes, I remember it was Locke that was supposed to turn the wheel.

    @Annie, too – multiple time lines is still a possibility but within this very Episode Pierre is introducing himself to the video taping as “Marvin Candle” and when interrupted is addressed as Dr Chang. So in this episode at least he has more than one moniker in a single time-line.

  34. Guys, of course Ben knows more than what we are lead to think this season (and notice he doesn’t said otherwise, it is just OUR belife). Why? Well… he knows about the Rules! So it makes sense to me that he wants to bring the Candidates back on the Island… he first deal with Widmore’s men as a revange for his daughter but he knows that the Candidates must go back to the Island so when he met Locke (who was working for Widmore) and since he was the one that was to “steal” his role as a leader after he got Locke to tell him how he was supposed to go back (Eloise) he killed him (because he thought that the only thing important for him now was his leadership). I don’t think they knew that mib would take John’s role but I think he knew what was going on since he was so scared by Locke when he saw him again. Yet, he wanted to kill Locke but he asked the Monster to judge him anyway (I think Widmore due to the Ghosts was the only one to knew how bad he was) and when Locke told him to kill Jacob then Ben realised that Jacob was responsable for the death of his daughter… Until after he saw that John/his daughter/the Monster were the same, then he realised he was wrong and the Monster logic was flawed. It was not due to Jacob but due to him if his daughter got killed. That is why he said to Ilana “mib is the only one that will have me… I am a bad person” and then Ilana put him on the right path because he, now, can redeem himself and that is why he followed Richard who wants to deal with mib and not just “go talk to him”.
    Let’s resume on today subject: I don’t think he knew that the Wheel would get stuck and keep moving the Island so that is why he asked what happened to Jack. I think he killed Locke for the reasons I stated earlier and not because “it needed to be done”. He starts doing the “god helps us all” AFTER meeting Eloise…
    Season 5 Jack is clearly just confused because “something is missing” and he wants to go back to found out about it… And the missing thing? Christian’s body! And him having a vision of his father while fixing the smoke detector meant he new in the back of his mind that he missed something on the Island. Something is clearly missing there! We need to find out more about that on both sideways… But I think Jack now knows that Smokey and the Island needs to be protected and that is why he went back… For his father, for his lost love, for the sake of everyone on the plane. He thought that preventing the crash would be enough to fix all that but he now understand that something bigger is playing now.
    Locke is simpliest part in my mind (even if you don’t like what is said): Richard tells him “you are our great savior but you will have to die to do that”… Well, that is mib words he is saying. Too bad but he had to die to give a corpse to mib and bring back the Candidates so that mib could get off the Island.
    Ok just a pose there because it could seem to be a problem: Jacob (through Widmore, Eloise and Ben) wanted the Candidates back… and mib wants the Candidates back also??? Well, of course! The “game” is about what they will do! To determine if mib is “wrong” or not about humanity and they are the Candidates to prove that…
    So mib is really angry about John (and we can clearly tell by how he is talking about him) because John was RIGHT. And he wants to have Jack think the opposite (and since Jack tried to kill Locke he can guess he will probably succeed there) but he doesn’t know that “I wished you belived me, Jack” has worked… And the Lighthouse effect also added to that. Now Jack knows what he is supposed to do.
    So… I clearly think that Jack won’t be mib, John was right but he had to die to succeed on his goal, Unlocke think he played the right cards but the Ghost of Jack’s father, Locke and Jacob’s “hint” put Jack on the right path…

  35. LReene says:

    @KK, @Bonita, @Others (not “the” Others :-)) – It appears not only did Ben know what was going to happen when he turned the wheel, he knew a whole lot of other things about the procedure.

    First, he knew exactly how to get to the wheel (He had to make the time travel chamber implode to get the wall to colapse to reach the chamber).

    Second, he knew it was going to be COLD in that FDW chamber. He bundled all up with heavy coat, etc. before going in.

    He also knew where the exit point was going to be on the planet. He had shuffled through his passports amd alternate personal effects before going into the chamber so he would have the correct documents.

    There are probably a lot of other things that Ben “knew” also, but I just can’t think of them at the present moment. But “HOW”? Knowing the answer to these questions would go a long way in figuring things out too.

    Oh, and to everyone else who also watched the enhanced version of Ab Aeterno last night, I am now more convinced than ever that it is MIB who is “representing” the God figure, and “Jacob” who is representing the persona of the Devil. I should have taken notes during the show. Maybe I can sum up my thoughts this evening.

  36. James says:

    Not sure if this ties in with the discussion !

    But who actually starts the Locke must die off the island chain of events.

    I remember Richard tells Locke in the time shifts and I think “Locke ” tells Richard to tell Locke when treating him.

    But who tells “Locke” to tell Richard is it Unlocke Jacob or someone else.

    My head hurts !

    I just feel the instigator of lock dying and coming back is key

  37. Annietoo says:

    @ Bonita….. Ooh – that’s right about Dr Candle – I had forgotten that! That he would record a message for his own operatives to watch, with an assumed name is very odd.

    @James I suspect is was fake Locke that suggested to Richard that Locke would make a great candidate, and that he would have to die, because he (MIB) planned to use his dead body to urge Ben to kill Jacob many years later. I don’t think Locke was always MIB. I do wonder which Christian told Locke to make ‘the sacrifice’ just before he turned the wheel – I guess it could have been the ‘real’ ghost.

  38. tvscifi says:

    # Annietoo Says:
    April 27th, 2010 at 12:12 pm

    @Bonita I think the number of names that Pierre Chang has had in the video tapes – indicates the number of time-lines we have to date.

    Yes! That’s an awesome theory. The Island is some sort of nexus point where all the time lines coverage. The various stations are staffed with people from other time lines and Chang uses other names to keep them separated (and straight in his own head). Also, there may be other Dr. Changs in those universes and he doesn’t want Dharma recruits going home and looking him up in the phone book.

  39. tvscifi says:

    After watching these two I’m thinking more and more that the Others are not on either side. They are trying to stop Jacob and MIB from playing their dangerous game. I think Ben is still very much in charge and is still pulling the strings.

    Sort of a Verbal Kint/Keyser SΓΆze thing like from the film “The Usual Suspects.”

  40. Carol from Boston says:

    Well did you notice that frogurt that was the first to die, was wearing a red shirt! lol

    @Bonita – I thought someone mentioned on a previous board why Marvin Candle used all the names. I think it had something to do with his ego and wanting to create a different persona for each hatch. But I could be totally wrong. I agree about wanting to watch all the episodes again, consider me sucked back in. I wonder if I’ll get anything done this week because I am watching more.

    I thought it was interesting when Ben said to Jack “pack all you need from THIS life”, almost indicates a knowledge of the sideways life and how he can never get this life back.

    For now I am not seeing Jack as MIB. I am also not sure about Jacob needing a vessel as he does have human form already and can travel where he wants and interact and even eat and drink. Whereas MIB seems to more limited. I am still convinced that the off island Christian was not MIB and that the Boat wasn’t him either. There were whispers on the boat indicating spirits right before Christian came.

    That’s all I have time for now, I haven’t had time to read all the posts yet. BBL.

  41. Indy says:

    @Felix:

    Thanks for this photo! But…where’d it come from? When was it/at Wired?

  42. KK says:

    @Carol — totally missed the red shirt on Frogurt… but how funny! And about Ben knowing about the sideways: That’s exactly what I got from these episodes.

    @Bonita and Carol — about watching more episodes… I’m going to wait until the end of this season, but then I’m going to watch the whole series from the very beginning. I can’t wait! My husband thinks I’ve lost it… He thinks I have this whole 2nd life with this blog and the show. He stopped watching during Season 3…

    As far as off-island “appearances” go… I feel like there’s a 3rd option in addition to MIB appearances and spirit appearances. I think above someone mentioned it might be the island itself who can appear. I think I agree, or at least am of the mind that there’s something else at work too.

    @James — you bring up an interesting point about Locke/Unlocke. It could definitely be a possibility that during the time jumping in Season 5, our Losties came in contact w/ Unlocke! I never thought of that…

  43. greenberry says:

    @ Yann ~~ Wow! Thank-you! I found your post above REALLY helpful! A really great analysis of both Ben and Jack, and their processes of getting to where they are now

    Questions: Why is Richard uttering MIB words to Locke re: having to die to be a savior? also What was Locke ‘right’ about?… the island being important and needing protection? or simply that it was a mistake for Jack to leave (with the Oceanic 6) and that now they must all return?

    Okay read your post again, and I think I understand about Locke being right, but still not about Richard being used by MIB. So interesting your thoery about both Jacob and MIB wanting the candidates to come back.

    Well, now I can’t WAIT to se ewaht Jack does on that operating table!! And if that changes Locke/MIL

  44. Melissa in Minnesota says:

    @hammer, I’m fine with the idea that the Others are just folks who Jacob drew to the Island (and their descendants). I’m just curious about their structure and their ties to the outside world. They seem to have such broad reach, enough to cure someone of cancer and maybe get someone hit by a bus.

    @Annietoo, I don’t think Sun returned to the Island for revenge. She tracked down Ben for revenge, but when he told her that Jin was still alive she went to the Island to look for him.

    @Annietoo and tvscifi, love the many Changs theory!

  45. greenberry says:

    sorry for typos ~ I really must take time to reread my comments before submitting

  46. Melissa in Minnesota says:

    @greenberry says: Why is Richard uttering MIB words to Locke re: having to die to be a savior?

    Because he didn’t know it was MIB at that point, He thought it was Locke. And who would know better what Locke should do than Locke? Especially a Locke who says he came back from the dead and really seems to know what he’s talking about.

  47. greenberry says:

    @ KK ~ So funny about your ‘second life’ ~ my husband feels this way too!!

  48. greenberry says:

    Thanks, Melissa ~ I guess I am confused about WHEN MIB/MIL said this to Richard — was this in Season 6 or earlier? And when Richard said it back to Locke?

  49. Melissa in Minnesota says:

    greenberry, it’s in Season 5. I don’t remember the episode, but it’s after the Ajira flight crashes on the Island but before the finale when it’s revealed that MIL isn’t actually Locke. The scene we saw where Richard tells Locke he has to die was while the Losties were jumping around in time, so they coincidentally(?) jumped to that precise sliver of time!

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