We need a explanation of how (besides death) candidates get weeded out and how much of it is subjective vs. objective.

This episode got me thinking about an unanswered question from a previous season. When Widmore’s people first come to the island, Ben says that they are going to kill everyone on the island. When Faraday and Charlotte are in the station which can supposedly gas the entire island, they say they are trying to stop it and apprently do. But then Keme’s final orders are to ‘torch’ the island, or kill everyone one it. I felt like we never got a good resolution to who the good and bad guys are with resepect to which side truly wanted to kill everyone on the island. If Ben was taking orders from MIB, then really he and Widmore were on the same side and didn’t notice. Unless Widmore is really on Jacobs side – but then why would he want to torch the island as a backup plan? It seems to me that both side have expressed some willingness to destroy the island at some point. Unless this is explained by the fact that Widmore or Ben were mistaken about who they were following, could this prove that Jacob and MIB really just want the same thing?

I saw a movie sunday that I liked a lot (I know it got bad reviews because it touch “sensible” stuff in the US) but with Clooney, McGreggor (a jedi! again!), Jeff Bridges (the Dude!) and Kevin Spacy! Just the cast is amazing. But I tell you that because the story had “flashback” people with powers… I just thought it was a lot like Lost.

MIB as Locke is seen on the beach with a black cover over him. Boy did they hit us over the head with that easter egg.

In Charles Widmore’s chat with the real Locke off island it is now clear to me that CW is coming and has been enlisted by Jacob not MIB. CW says to Locke “there is a war coming and if you are not there the wrong side will win”. Confusing but he later says the he does not know why Richard Alpert would tell John that he had to die to do so and that he would do everything in his power to protect him. Please, please, please correct me if I am wrong but Alpert is told that by Locke, correct? Was he MIB then or Locke?

Another thing that is confusing me, off island Locke can walk? He is seen in a wheel chair but that is only due to his leg injury from falling down the well. This is why I wanted to re-watch this ep to see if he is Locke or MIB off island too…… ugh. grr.

So now Walt is talking to Locke. He tells Locke off island that he was not surprised to see him because he had been having dreams about him dressed in a suit and that there were people all around him that wanted to hurt him. Thoughts?

Here is the link to the article : http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20351909,00.html

Below is the section, taken from Doc Jensen’s Lost blog on Entertainment Weekly’s site. Please go read the full article which I found very interesting. Also, he has a video series called Totally Lost where he discusses past episodes with Dan Snierson and SPOILER warning they also have teasers for tonight’s episode but they are somewhat cryptic in nature (these are written on screen and not discussed per se).
“…..After all, don’t the producers love Stephen King? Haven’t they been on record as saying how much they love The Dark Tower? The answer to those questions is yes. But did you know that the Master of Horror has something in common with the Master of Christian Fantasy? Did you know that Lewis also wrote a story called The Dark Tower? It’s true! It was published in 1977 — the same year that George Lucas released Star Wars (another Lost influence), and the same year the castaways blew up Jughead. It’s true! And you want to know what it’s about? If you guessed ”parallel worlds,” you’d be absolutely right!
Lewis’ The Dark Tower begins with a conversation about time travel. The characters conclude that the past can’t be changed. They then find a device called a ”chronoscope” that allows them to peer into the past or future — or so they think. Looking into the chronoscope, they witness a past or future world (they can’t tell which, so they just call it ”Othertime”) in which a devilish character leads people astray, clouding their minds and turning them into virtual zombies. Then a character makes a discovery: The chronoscope isn’t a device that allows peeks into other times — it allows them to peek into parallel worlds. He then makes another discovery: His double in Othertime is a bad guy. To prevent him from doing bad things, he crosses over…and accidentally switches minds with his bad doppelganger. And so, while the Good Guy tries to save the day in Othertime, his evil doppelganger wreaks havoc in ”the real world” and the Good Guy’s ”real world” friends try to stop him.
How does it end? Wish I knew. I haven’t read the book, just what Wikipedia summarized. Yeah, I’m a lame scholar, but you know what? It doesn’t matter anyway: C.S. Lewis technically never finished the story. The Dark Tower only exists as a fragment of a novel, an unfinished work — a Lost story. Also interesting: Lewis’ story was designed to connect to his own series of Space Trilogy novels via shared characters and themes. Part of me is in love with the idea that those Stephen King-loving, Star Wars-grooving writers of Lost are basically taking the raw material of Lewis’ Dark Tower and building something new out of it. At the very least, I find myself wondering if Jack made the same mistake in ”Lighthouse” that the characters in The Dark Tower made about the chronoscope: those mirrors inside the Lighthouse didn’t peek into the past — they peeked into the Sideways World. ”
+++

@ The Jacob’s gift crowd : you‘ll be interested in hearing what they are saying In Totally Lost about that topic. They also throw me a bone by mentioning what I had brought up as a food for thought item earlier in the week above: “Food for thought: Is Jacob pulling the strings? and has questionable morality or is MIB pulling off the longest con in humanity?”

@yann and Rich – Jin and Sun’s gift/curse – fertility? Or was that the island healing them? Jin was able to have a child even though he was sterile?

I rewatched the scene from The Substitute where MIB releases Richard. MIB asks Richard to leave the island with him.

Richard: I’m not going anywhere with you.
MIB: Are you sure, Richard? People seldom get a second chance.

That’s exactly what we’re seeing in the flash-sideways. People are given a second chance. They’ve all faced a life-altering decision, and have the choice to do things differently.

@Ryan and Jen: I think some of the conversation we had on this blog should make it on the next podcast (for those who don’t come on the blog… the fools!) the “Jacob’s touch is a gift except it’s a curse” and some of our interpretations are (I think) dead on (or at least entertaining). And I am suprised that no one seemed to react to that part of the show.

I wonder if Widmore is just working for himself. He wants control he wants to be running the island.

Maybe Ben and Widmore are the final two running the island like MIB and Jacob.

Whose side is Widmore on? My conclusion is that he is with Jacob. I do think that MIB is running a long con, but with Ben as his agent and dupe. It is Ben who kills Locke, opening the door for MIB. It is Ben who kills Jacob. Ben seems to be taking the key steps necessary to put MIB in control of the island. I accept he may be doing this unwittingly. Recall, also, that Ben seemed to be able to call up Smokey when the freighter folks were attacking. Ben seems to have some connection to Smokey. For that matter, Smokey seems to be working against the freighter folks, who were sent by Widmore

Ben exiles Widmore. Ben kills Abadon, Widmore’s agent. Ben and Widmore are (or were until last week) on opposite sides. Ergo, Widmore is working for Jacob.

Another point in this regard: Ilana seems to have some backing. It seems that she is working with help from somebody powerful. Widmore? She is clearly on Ben’s side.

More thoughts. Widmore wants the candidates back on the island in
Live together, Die Alone.” It is Jacob who seems to want the candidates on the island. He brought them there, seemingly.

Final piece of this. Jacob is expecting someone to come back and wants them back. Now Widmore is arriving.

The show has surprised me before, but I see a lot of things point to Widmore as one of Jacob’s crew.

The father’s response, your brother was dead to us, now he is alive again. He was lost……………….but now is found.

Another mythical example of the overall arc of the series I think. Light vs dark, being your best self, just beacuse.

An how cool was it in Sundown when Sayid puts a bullet in Martin’s chest – that guy did such a great job – pure dark.

And how beaultiful did Alex get in the past few years! She was awesome.

@Steven in Bathurst: Well put! I totally agree! I too especially want the Walt story explained… it was one of the first major storylines and they just dropped it!

@Yann From France: You are welcome! It’s nice to hear from like minds!

Finally, as far as dead people being seen by some, and MIB inhabiting dead bodies, I think there are some who actually see dead people (like Hurley) and there are those who might think they are seeing dead people when they see MIB who just happens to go inside of certain dead people…. they seem to only be corpses that somehow arrive on the island. Perhaps these corpses also need some kind of a link to each other before the MIB can utilize them… otherwise why did dead Locke’s corpse require Christian’s shoes?

One more “finally”… in consideration of this being our last season… judging by the contributors to these comments, Lost viewers are a brilliant bunch… far superiour in intellect to the average tv viewer! Be proud!

The number also has enormous significance within Eastern religions (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_(number for more). To name just two:

1) Heart Chakra: The chakras are the intersections of energy lines, and there are said to be a total of 108 energy lines converging to form the heart chakra. One of them, sushumna leads to the crown chakra, and is said to be the path to Self-realization.

2) Hindu deities have 108 names. Recital of these names, often accompanied by counting of 108-beaded Mala, is considered sacred and often done during religious ceremonies. The recital is called namajapa.

Anyhow– brilliant crazy stuff, as ever!

A few weeks ago my boyfriend and I were at a baseball fan fest for our team. There were a variety of activities and at some of them literature was available. So I had a bag full of pamphlets and fliers that I finally got around to reading. Did you know that a baseball has EXACTLY 108 stitches. I repeat… EVERY BASEBALL HAS EXACTLY 108 STITCHES! So does that have any meaning when it comes to Dogen’s back story?

If we make that leap, is it possible that way back in season one, when they creators came up with the numbers and they all added up to 108, that was planned to somehow tie into a baseball theme somewhere down the road? Could it possibly be just another coincidence that the writers did not intend? What do you think?

@ Russell
I don’t agree about Kate. I vividly recall her plea to James for a “clean slate” on their way back to the beach camp. Very moving. I also thought she was a good person from the first moment she stitched up Jack. They’ve flattened her character out since then, but I would put early Kate up against any of our flawed candidates.

@the usual suspects still posting
I’m not sure about all the manifestations of Christian, but I have a strong feeling that Christian off island (as well as Hurley’s apparitions) are not the devil in disguise. I think Flocke is bound to the island in a way that Jacob is not.

I understand what you mean about MIB being off the Island as Christian – but is it not possible that both entities (Jacob and MIB) can manifest outside the Island (in the ‘real world’) temporarily? That they can manifest off Island but must return to the Island.

Did Charlie not tell Hurley that his friends on the Island needed his help. In other words, Charlie wanted Hurley to convince Jack and company to return to the Island. Sounds like MIB’s plan.

@ Russell : I agree with your assessment of Kate, the Wild Card

I think it is SO COOL how the show of Lost covers so many intellectual pursuits: English (literature); Math (the numbers); Science (mind/time travel); Psychology (destiny, purpose); History (mythology) and Philosophy (good/evil)

@yann i like the idea of MIB stashing bodies to keep anyone from realizing he wasn’t real.

i just finished listening to the official podcast, which is real good if you haven’t heard it yet. darlton brings up an interesting point that jacob could have been in the cave and messing with MIB who later took over.

with that said, i think kate is the wild card. i know people don’t care for her and yesterday i figured out why. the problem is that kate doesn’t have an internal struggle like the other main characters. her struggles have been external (escaping custody, raising aaron, finding claire), but she’s not really battling anything inside like jack (man of science), locke (man of faith), sawyer (con man with a heart) or hurley (guilt for being “cursed”). it’s hard to feel for kate because we don’t know how to root for her. but the writers keep forcing us to believe she’s important.

and i believe she will be. i think in this “game,” kate is a wild card. jacob crossed her name out in the cave to throw MIB off her trail. that’s why UnLocke looked confused when he saw kate emerge from the temple in Sundown. so i think she’ll play a pivotal role, but since her character arc isn’t as well-defined as the aforementioned or even ben, it will be hard for her story to resonate.

@Rich – Good point, Sayid had to be saved because he was a candidate and Nadia wasn’t, so she could die because she was meant to die at some point. Whatever happens, happens right? IF she didn’t die then, she would die at another time. re: finding the truth – when he tortured on the island he didn’t get the truth, both Sawyer and Ben lied while being tortured.

My take is that Widmore discovered it through a signature electromagnetic disturbance when Ben transported through it.

An unrecognized allusion from this last episode started me awake last night as well. There was something so familiar about the way Flocke flicked his fingers to unlock Ben’s bonds. Then it dawned on me that it was virtually identical to the way Randall Flagg opened Lloyd Henreid’s penitentiary cell in “The Stand.” Do not accept his offering, (“then it was the stone, then it was the key”) even if you are between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Are the Aija surivors on Hydra Island? Is the plane there? Can all our losties go through the luggage there and get some clean clothes? lol Lapidus and Sun Ben and Ilana have been in the same clothes for a long time now. At least Hurley and Jack and Kate got clean clothes at Dharma. J/K.

@Knives – where are you? Haven’t heard from you this week have we?

As for MIB being stuck in Locke’s form : during the appearances of Christian on the freighter and at the hospital, MIB was not in Locke’s form during those sightings. Those happened before Locke died. The only time we saw Christian after Locke died and MIB took his form was in the barracks when he spoke to Sun and Lapidus. At that time, I do not think that MIB was ‘stuck’ in Locke form. I understood that MIB became stuck in Locke only after Locke’s body was buried by Ilana and company.

But Richard said it all “Jacob touched me, and when Jacob touches you… well it’s considered a gift except it’s not a gift at all. It’s a curse.”
Maybe he was surrounded by dead people and said to Jacob that death was the worst thing that could happen to someone or he was hurt from the wreak and he asked Jacob to stay alive (when you make wishes to Genies(or the devil?) don’t forget to be specific!) and thus ended up immortal.
I like our theory better! :p
Candidates have a gift (and we have seen many of them now!)
Something else: I thought I said it or that I read someone who said it but here it is: The last remaining “rules” we don’t know yet is, why Widmore was banned from the Island because he had a child outside. If Widmore was a Candidate (but he would be address by his surname) then in fact it might be his child! And that’s why you are not suppose to have “unrecognized” children or outside Island children because it would be problematic to bring them…

How did Widmore know where Locke was going to ‘land’ in the Sahara? He had cameras up and waiting for Locke. How did he know that a war was coming? Who told him?

Back at the FDW Christian told Locke he had to fix the wheel and that he had meant for Locke to turn the wheel originally, and furthermore Locke would have to die.

If Christian = MIB then and Widmore was waiting for Locke to land then Widmore is with MIB. Do you agree?

Looking back at the last significant interaction between Widmore and Ben on the Island – as Charles is being lead away (banished) from the Island by Sub (interesting that he is coming back the way he left) :

Here is the transcript of their dialogue (Dead is Dead) :

BEN: Charles! I came to say good-bye.

WIDMORE: [Chuckles] No, you didn’t. You came to gloat.

BEN: No, don’t act as if I wanted this. You brought this on yourself.

WIDMORE: Are you quite certain you want to do this, Benjamin?

BEN: You left the Island regularly. You had a daughter with an outsider. You broke the rules, Charles.

WIDMORE: And what makes you think you deserve to take what’s mine?

BEN: Because I won’t be selfish. Because I’ll sacrifice anything to protect this Island.

WIDMORE: You wouldn’t sacrifice Alex.

BEN: You’re the one who wanted her dead, Charles, not the Island.

WIDMORE: I hope you’re right, Benjamin, because if you aren’t, and it is the Island that wants her dead, she’ll be dead. And one day, you’ll be standing where I’m standing now. You’ll be the one being banished, and then you’ll finally realize that you cannot fight the inevitable. I’ll be seeing you, boy.

—-

Prophecy from Widmore? Or is that the moment of genesis of the loophole for MIB. MIB saw an opening with Widmore to take down Jacob?

By recruiting Widmore (somehow) and exploiting Ben’s weakness : his love for the children … by making it impossible for the Island women to bear children and therefore side track Ben from his pledge not to be selfish and to protect the Island? Because we know Richard did not like what Ben was doing in that regard (recuriting Juliet etc.)

I think this makes alot of sense to me? Any thoughts?

maybe the lost writers were playing with pronouns again when miles told ben that jacob “was hoping he was wrong about you.” maybe the “he” in this case is MIB, considering MIB’s hypothesis about man’s innate corruption.

also, when widmore is pulling up in his sub, and sees the beach, i got the impression he wanted to land there where jack and co. were, but somebody made me realize that he said “no keep going” so does that mean keep going past the main island to the hydra island where UnLocke is?

@byrd good thoughts. i like the idea that the next candidate must choose to be fill the role through selflessness, not some ulterior objection like the ones UnLocke dangles in front of his recruits.

for the record, i don’t think widmore is the one jacob is referring to. i believe him and ben will be on different sides, so now that ben is with jacob’s crew, widmore will be Team Dark.

crackpot theory: this is a random thought about the boy with bloody hands in the jungle who scared UnLocke. i think his name is Cain. (the island Elba is an anagram for Abel.) mark my words.

re: Sayid and the Kwans – he seems to take away from them, Nadia and Jin and Sun’s togetherness.

Mental note – I can’t read this board before going to sleep since I end up thinking up theories instead of sleeping. Last night Yann you had me going re: gifts.

Kate- he helped Kate “escape” from prosecution for the lunchbox and now she can “escape” from almost any situation. But on the curse side – she runs from everything instead of facing her feelings.

Jack- he gives an Apollo bar – Medicine and healing were associated with Apollo the god. – Curse – feels like he has to fix everything or his life has no meaning.

Locke – he gave him the gift of life, a second chance, which he receives on the island when he can walk again. Curse- until he gets to the island, Locke is half a man frustrated by not being able to do what he wants.

Sawyer – Is his gift stubborness or the ability to con? because instead of learning to let go, Jacob encourages him to hold on to his grudge. This stubborness has gotten him through many bad situations and so has his ability to work a con. – curse- His stubborness gets him into the bad situations in the first place.

Hurley- after his dad left he was fearful of people leaving him. Gift – can see dead people, so he doesn’t have to really let them go and he can have closure. – Curse – he thought he was insane.

Sayid- this one puzzles me, he is not really given a gift, his love is taken away from him and takes away the positive force in his life.

@Chelsea
Namaste. Great observation that perhaps Widmore is the power-hungry analogue to Napoleon, especially since he shows up in the final twist.

@MLE @YAE
“And you were there and you and you…” I’ve enjoyed every minute of our shared dream.

This “leaving the main island” really baffels me
for Flocke.

Why on earth, does he think he can “just leave” the main island?

We’ve assumed that he is “trapped” on the island”
and that Jacob was the one that trapped him there.
Now that Jacob is gone he thinks he can “just leave”?

And what did he do to deserve “being trapped”?

What is sooooo special on Hydra?

The Pemstar Initiative thinks once he leaves the island
Flocke will be “vulnerable”. For what? who knows….

He wants to leave, did DHARMA leave something there
for his departure?

Or possibly his destruction? Hmmmm interesting…….

I’m open for suggestions…..

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

A final crazy idea and then I am off to sleep… I spend too much time thinking about LOST – I will have a serious case of withdrawal come May.

@ Carol : maybe we should think about starting a Lostaholics annonymous club.

OK, so here is the crazy idea:

Remember when the Doctor from the freighter washed up ashore dead with his throat slashed but he was alive on the boat only to be killed by Keamy hours later? Also there was the Faraday experiment with time lapsed the same depending on the degree of enrty (I am not sure how to explain this but I am sure you all know what I mean )

What if the bomb pushed the rift of time further apart ? So that the Widmore in the sub is coming from the Sideways world – namely from the 2004 timeline?

Hurley says to Richard, ” you look the same as you did 30 years ago”.
What’s bugging me is that I don’t remember hurley ever meeting Richard during his short time in the ’70s. He spent almost the entire time With dharma and then escaped and was hanging around the swan site before the incident.

does anyone remember off the top of their head if hurley met Richard during his time in the 70s?

Here are a few quick thoughts on Dr. Linus :

Sideways Locke tempting/pushing Ben into thinking he could so better and should make a play for the principal’s job. If I didn’t know better, I would swear that Locke was channelling MIB.

Sun asks Ilana about the candidates : “…replace Jacob to do what?” Illana replies ” if you are the one selected you will find out.” Is it more than protecting the Island?

Miles tells Ben about Jacob’s last thought “… he was hoping he was wrong about you.” Which to me implies that he did not hold Ben in the highest regard. Jacob was hoping not to be stabbed but expected to be.

The Jack and Richard interaction : Jack understood Richard’s wish to end it all – because he was in the same dark place after learning of Jeremy Bentham’s death (Locke).

Basically, Locke told Jack exactly the same thing that Jacob told Richard : “Everything happens for a reason.” but Jacob died before telling Richard and Locke died before Jack found his faith.

Jacob is to Richard what Locke was to Jack at the end of season 3.

A final thought about Ben and the principal. Some of you mentioned above whay did Ben not write the recommendation to Alex himself after ousting the principal. Alex specifically mentions to Ben that the recommendation cannot be written by him because it has to come from a Yale alumni.

However, I thought it was obvious that Ben had written the recommendation (although he denied it to Alex – why make her think that she was not worthy of the principal’s high praise) and had the principal sign it in exchange of not getting him fired. “Alright Mr. Principal, I won’t go to the Board, but here is what I want you to do.”

The principal wanted the power of the position but I have no doubt that Ben still struck a deal (or call it blackmailed) with him in order to keep his secret. Hence the History Club meeting again. Ben still has him by the balls for more minor things.

Have to say, I unashamedly loved the reunion scene. Sure we’ve had a few of them in the past but that was like, what, 3 seasons ago? The ep was a whole throwback to the roots of the show (group of misfits finding redemption at beach) and I am so glad they went there. Maybe next episode we’ll see someone wistfully looking out to sea and Gacchino’ll bring back some old season 1 themes. That would make my life.

the main reason i think it resonates with so many people is because it’s really the first flash sideways to have a beginning, middle and an end, rather than just a glimpse into some strange land. it was a more a vignette, than a commercial break.

i have to catch up on the posts, but i do think it’s fair to confirm that my “no-suicide clause” i posted here a few episodes back is pretty dead on.

also @rich in cleveland i dig the “detention” concept you brought up. it definitely relates to some ideas of the losties as “lost children” in need of direction.

i think one key question is in richard’s case, is aging considered suicide, so is that why he never ages? does that mean the losties from this point on will never age either?

or is jacob’s touch a tailor-made gift to each person?

I wonder if he is important to the flash sideways to make people remember their “other lives”. He is going to a key to all of this, I am just not sure how yet.

@Yann: I like this theory even better now after reading what you posted. You nailed it with Kate’s gift of escaping locks and cages and Sayeed as a no fail killer. If Sayeed wants you dead you will die. Even with little boy Ben Linus. He had to be brought back to life by Richard and the others, right?

@Soko: Hate to keep bringing up this insignificant substitute teacher thing but, yes, it is based in reality. If you google “substitute teaching california” you will see that all that is required is a 4 year degree in any subject matter (and passing a basic skills test) Sometimes long-term subs are hired because it is cheaper than hiring a new teacher temporarily. I am buying Locke as a teacher.

Because of this board I have noticed many things in the episodes I wouldn’t have found by myself.

Finally thank you to Jen and Ryan for the wonderful podcasts and for providing a place for us to debate and help each other.

I am starting to feel sentimental knowing that we only have a couple more months till the end.

Also if Jacob touches someone and it is a gift in which they can not die, can someone still kill them? I might need to rewatch, but it would explain why Jin did NOT die on the freighter. Yet Locke died at the hands of someone else…. hmmmm

2. Way back when Ben first got off the island and went to visit Widmore in his bedroom (in “The Shape of Things to Come” Season 4), both Ben and Widmore were half in shadow and half in the light. However, Ben was wearing black clothes and Widmore was wearing white pajamas. So is Widmore actually on the side of Jacob and Ben on the side of the Man in Black?

Re: Believability of Locke as a substitute teacher
Locke is teaching in California, not S Carolina or Florida.
The only way these nonsensical school happenings can take place is if … maybe… it is a private school funded by Hurley that had a board that can appoint whoever they want. It’s really hard to get bad teachers out and You have to have certain specific credentials in order to be and administrator. You don’t get the job by some guy suggesting that you’d be swell at it. Ben didn’t seem interested in the job so he may not have taken the administrative classes, Masters or no Masters. But at a private or magnet school his education may hold up without worrying about School district rules.

Ben lived on the island most of his life. There wasn’t anyone there that he could have gotten to join his little group ? “Hey come with us Fred. We know a way out of the temple” But instead it’s like ” I’m only looking for the stars of the show. you inconsistent group of extras are of no concern to me. here comes the smoke monster… goodbye!”

Again I love the drama of the show… but a little reality would help a whole lot.

Great podcast, by the way.

Thanks Jen & Ryan great podcast & agreed great episode. I too picked up on many of the things both of you did. There were plenty of things in the dialogue in this episode to get answers even if the answers aren’t what some are looking for. Oh and for Sun … yes please give this woman more lines other than “have you seen Jin” “is Jin alive” “can you help me find Jin” etc. Ashame to see her reduced to this. I’d rather hear Wallllllt.

I am not on the “Jacob is good” bandwagon. As someone who believed since The Incident that Smokey=MIB=Flocke=Christian etc, I doubted Jacob’s “good” since watching Nadia get killed before Sayids eyes last season. I don’t find “good” in a man who tells a man you have a choice, leave your child & never see him again and I’ll let him let live, or stay and he’ll die. Any parent will say either choice is cruel. If he was “good” and had the power to save the child, he would have done so saying they both would have to go the Island IMO. We still have a lot to learn about Jacob & the real MIB, perhaps we’ll have an episode that will explain their beginnings.

Someone above mentioned that we don’t know when the FS happened; yes we do, it’s been confirmed that the plane indeed landed at LAX on 9/22/04. The date on Claire’s ultrasound was dated 10/22/04 but was confirmed by Gregg Nations (and Damon & Carlton as a faulty ultrasound machine lol, they confirmed the flight as landing on the same date the original 815 crashed on the island).

Last night as the show aired I suspected when Ilana said “6 candidates, there’s only 6 left” this would be a topic of conversation today and yes it has been. We have: Ford, Reyes, Shephard, Austen, Kwon….given what Ben told Ilana about Sayid killing Dogen she knows Jarrah is no longer in play, 108 Wallace is scratched out as is Straume, Littlleton etc. Locke is not an option, they buried Locke, she’s not counting him so the 6th candidate is indeed open for discussion, there are 6 names not crossed off the Lighthouse Wheel & one of them is Jarrah. Given the dialogue from last night since Ilana does not know which Kwon to protect she intends to protect both Jin & Sun, it’s likely that’s why shes saying “only 6 left” but it’s possible that we have a mystery candidate. However for all we know like Ryan & Jen said the Kwon could be JiYeon but Ilana doesn’t know that. There has been some discussion about Lapidus being the 6th candidate but I’ll refer to the conversation between Bram & Ilana in the The Incident where Frank is not identified as a candidate, but as Ilana says “it doesn’t mean he’s not important”.

I wanted to address something regarding Jack when he said “let’s go back to where we started”. IMO he did just that…and not just by going to the beach camp where it started; the writers took us all back to where it all started…to season 1 with the old slo-mo and background closing music of everyone meeting each other, back to the beginning. Yes, the players may have changed, the teams have been drawn, but the theme was the same, so IMHO Jack took us all back to where it all started the beach where 815 crashed so I believe he meant it literally when he made that statement, for him & for us the viewer (and how nice it was to go back to the season 1 feeling if not for a minute). I thought it was very well done. Now we can safely say Richard came to the Island on the Blackrock, likely chained as a prisoner & he wasn’t chained metaphorically as so many had originally thought. This was a great way to introduce what should be a Richard centric episode in the near future.

Lastly excellent writing by Eddie & Adam followed by the amazing acting of Michael Emerson et als. I know you Jen were waiting for this episode with Atherton, knew you were going to love it (as I watched 5 hours before you on the east coast

At first I didn’t think this was a great episode but after listening to you guys and thinking about it I really am coming to appreciate the ‘what they choose on the island directly effects their lives in the otherverse’.

I’m thinking that Flocke told Sayid he would have Nadia again but it turns out to be true BUT she will hate him for what he did and probably end up estranged or dead. Doesn’t look good for Sayid.

And so Walt could bring birds to him… which meant he was just “special” like the other Candidate but what we fought was something big was just a premise from what all the other Candidate can do! (I love how Jack reanimation always work… I don’t know how many we have seen but he does that a lot through the seasons)

Re: Podcast comment about HIgh Schools with outdoor hallways.
I would say pretty common in LA because of the warm climate. I don’t know first hand but I remember watching 90210 and they had the outdoor school too so it works.

Re: Believability of Locke as a substitute teacher
This was brought up here a couple episodes ago, someone said it was unlikely he could get this temp job… Untrue. I know first hand that at least where I have lived, all that is required to be a substitute teacher is any 4 year degree. I did it in South Carolina and FL, no teaching degree or experience required.

and lastly,
I just want to say that when Hurley woke up in that field of flowers , it reminded me of the Wizard of Oz poppy fields scene. Did anyone else think this?

With that said, I totally need Locke to get his true happy ever after and be able to walk or dance at his wedding and for Jack fix him.

@Yann From France – I agree that Ben was also chosen by Jacob when he was healed as a boy. As Richard said “He will always be one of us.”

@Rich in Cleveland – Nice catch on the detention theme! I didn’t notice that, and it’s very fitting.

I actually think Charles Widmore is the “Napoleon” being referred to in this episode – he was stripped of his power by Ben and exiled from the Island, and now all he wants is to get back.

Or another reading is that the smoke monster was exiled TO the Island like Napoleon, and all he wants is to get off and go home to wherever he came from.

I didn’t realize I had posted such a long one – cheez and I have even touched on this week’s episode. Also, kindly forgive me, I notices a few typos. Also, my first paragraph was written with tongue planted firmly in cheek

So, let me just jump in and address some of the posts, which are fantastic.

@ Steven in Bathurst: I completely understand your point and feel that the replies of both docjkm and Zhami mirror my feelings. If we are given the side to root for then there will be no longer any need for debate … and I feel that this great vitural conversation within the fandom is at the heart of the show.

I can also add here that the uncomfortableness (is that even a word?) that we are feeling of not being given a side to root for, is due in large part to our (the audience) expectations of ALWAYS being handed the good guy, hero, villan by the storytellers. Lost writers are breaking the mole here by giving us heros but then taking them back, giving us villans and then redeeming them. The writers are keeping us of balance – to keep us debating.

@ Kyle from Pittsburgh : nice thought on the Swan being a microcosm of the Island. Proof they new where they were heading or what the Island was from the begining??

@ Zhami : Loved your thoughts, certainly the idea of perception and point of view are central to Lost.

About Jacob being the good guy … and having Ben do bad things in his name. I rewatched season 5 “Dead is Dead” I think everyone should go back to this episode.

That epi starts off with Charles Widmore riding a horse into the hostile’s camp and confronting Richard about putting Ben in the Temple waters. He tells Richard : Is it true? What have you done? When Richard tells him that Ben would have died, Charles replies ..’Then you should have let him die.’ Richard follows with : ‘The Island chooses who the Island chooses” and finally : ‘Jacob wanted it done.”

Really?? Was there an intervention from Jacob between the time Kate and Sawyer brought the boy to Richard and after Richard entered the temple with Ben? Or was it Richard’s way to make Charles back off?

Also in that episode we see an older Ben with young Ethan in tow on a mission which Charles sent them on to “exterminate Danielle”. Ben goes in with his gun and just when he would do the act Alex starts crying (game changer for Ben). He takes Alex, tell Rousseau if she wants her child to live then she must never intervene and interestely he tells her “Every time you hear whispers you run the other way.”

Food for thought: this scene is mirrored in the epi with Ben wanting to kill Penny but is interrupted by Charlie coming out from the bottom cabin. Which gives time to Desmond toknock the living daylights out of him.

Food for thought: the mechanical sounds (ticka ticka tick) announces Smokey’s arrival … do the whispers announce the hostiles (Other’s) arrival??

Back to the episode, Ben defies Charles’ orders directly and when he returns to camp with Alex. Charles is pissed off… He tells Ben that every decision he has taken is in the “…best interest of the Island.” Then Ben asks : “Is killing this baby what Jacob wants? then, You do it.”

Food for thought: Is Jacob pulling the strings? and has qestionable morality or is MIB pulling off the longest con in humanity? Is Widmore in MIB’s camp here and always was? After all we know that he was waiting for Locke to “land” in the Sahara desert where he tells Locke the famous line … if you don’t get back to the Island the wrong side wins.

ps: I’ll have to go back and check but : Widmore gives Locke a passport in the name of Jeremy Bentham and when asked why that name – Widmore says “its an inside joke” – sounds like MIB to me.

Finally, Dead is Dead ends with the banishment of Charles off the Island – Ben sees him off and they have an interesting exchange. Charles broke the rules, has had a daughter with an outsider. Charles tells Ben in regards to Alex … ‘if the Island wants her dead, she’ll be dead.”

Food for thought : I was surprised by that line about Alex, because of course we now know that she in fact is dead. And so is Rousseau. So, was she and Danielle suppose to die like Charles wanted it done? Did Jacob truly wanted them dead?

Do you only die if the Island wishes it and has less to do with Jacob’s touch. We also had hints about the Island not being done with people… as in Michael, Desmond etc.

Is the Island Jacob? Of course, Michael was ‘visited’ by Christian just prior to his demise and the explosion on the freighter. If Christian = MIB then it would be consistant with MIB’s words to Jacob’s followers … ie: “you are free now – you don’t have to stay any more” or words to that effect.

MIB’s wish is to get everyone off the Island by any means … so that he can sink it to the bottom of the sea and end it once and for all?

So, who is good and who is bad — Heck if I know !!

This episode underscores the “redemption” theme of the show – Ben allows Alex to die on the island and finds redemption in the flash sideways. I just remembered something yesterday. In season 1, when Jin, Sawyer, Michael, & Walt are sailing their boat, Sawyer is singing Bob Marley’s “Redemption Song”. More evidence that the show runners had a plan from the beginning as they claim…

“an anagram of the principal’s name “Donald Lawrence Reynolds” is “A cloned world nearly ends”

The MiB’s impersonation ability seems to be contingent on people being dead _when they arrive_ on the island. Christian Shepherd, Yemi, and Locke were dead when they arrived. We haven’t seen him take the form of anyone who died after coming to the island, that is, no zombie Nikki and Paulo.

So in order to get to Jacob, MiB would have to impersonate a candidate, and to be able to do that, he would have to get the candidate to leave the island, die, and then have the corpse return to the island. So the MiB’s plan really would take a lot of time and effort. He couldn’t have just killed Locke at any time and taken his form.

There’s also been a running theme of substitutes and replacements throughout the show. The only way to escape your fate or destiny is to imprison someone else.

If children who are conceived on-island cause their mothers to die in childbirth, then the only viable way of replacing someone or maintaining the on-island population is recruiting people from off-island.

The Swan station seems to be a microcosm of what’s happening on the island. Kelvin and Radzinsky both wanted to be free, but they also wanted to save the world. Radzinsky ultimately killed himself to escape, but Kelvin knew that the job was too important to stop doing it. The Dharma Initiative promised him a replacement, but that relief never arrived, so in order to escape, Kelvin would have to recruit a replacement. Desmond fit the description nicely.

So wouldn’t it be interesting if, in order to be free, the Losties would have to recruit replacements for themselves. Maybe they could find a replacement in the sideways world?

@Rich in Cleveland: Great point about “detention” being the thematic element to focus on. Yes, it does seem that MIB is in some sort of demi-god detention.

@DharmaBoy: Great question (why would Jacob need a replacement?). My hunch is that he needs a replacement for both himself and MIB.

@Steven in Bathurst: Excellent excellent point (we don’t really know how to think of all the events we witness without some clearer context). I have decided this season to go low on theorizing and just take the ride. But you are right: I have become emotionless (sure, lots of folks died at the temple — but should I feel that they got their comeuppance, or were martyrs. Do I rot for Jacob (I have grave suspicions that he isn’t at all good) or MIB (might it be necessary to use terrible force and tactics to reign in a heinous enemy). I want to cheer for one side or another, but given the ongoing reversals, I can’t select sides because I’m afraid I’ll be wrong, and I am invested in siding with the “right” side. Although in this I think I expose a fundamental premise of Lost: we just can’t know. All along everyones character arc (characters on the show, and each of us in real life) must make choices from limited information and pre-biased contexts.All sides in every battle are righteous, and each side always has its God on its side.

☛ Hey, all you Jacob-is-good folks out there, help me understand this: that for all the apparent lying, scheming, killing, and other horrendous things that Ben Linus has done, he has done them in the service of, and even at the direction of, Jacob. Wow. Jacob’s objective must be crucially important to the redress of the universe, and ethically impeccable.

Human beings can be enlisted in the service of nearly any objective, if one situates the objective properly. Hitler did not coerce a nation, but enthused them. The Crusaders set out to reclaim something that wasn’t originally theirs. Today, I hear Americans talk about “taking our oil.” The European explorers and imperialists took on a “white man’s burden” that no indigenous peoples asked them to. We watch Avatar and root for the Na’vi, yet we consume resources with rapacious appetite without thought. The point is: service to a cause can seem proper and right and necessary from within the context of that cause, but wrong or even evil from a different perspective.

So here’s my biggest concern: it would make me happy (from my philosophical context) if the Lost writing team *never* explains which side was “right” or “good.” I think it would be awesome if they revealed more of the context of this game or war, but refrained from contextualizing as good/bad right/wrong light/evil. However, if they do this, won’t they disappoint the majority of viewers, who want clear cut divisions so they can feel “right” for being on the “right” side?

This reminded me of the principle of invertendo in spirituality and math. That when one chases after something too much, it automatically becomes it’s opposite. So if one chases after pleasure, it becomes pain and vice versa- neverending. I guess this would also be the Yin Yang concept. The wise person pays attention to neither and tries to just be happy under all circumstances. There are a lot of math references in the past few seasons so here is another one for the pile:

INVERTENDO: Ratio is the numerical relationship between two quantities of the same kind. The first quantity is called the antecedent and the second quantity is called the consequent. By performing simple operations on ratios, we get compounded ratio, duplicate ratio, triplicate ratio, sub-duplicate ratio … I’m really bad at math so if someone else wants to elucidate that would be fun!

It seems to me that Hurley is the only character that has been happy under all circumstances. I just rewatched Left Behind from season 3, and noticed that Hurley was acting weirdly like Jacob in that episode. He “tricks” Sawyer into a different behavioral pattern much like Jacob “tricked” Jack into coming to the lighthouse to realize that he has purpose. It wasn’t so much manipulative as it was just creating circumstances that would enable growth. Left Behind also had a Ben/Juliet parallel- both being displaced from a group. The connections in Dr. Linus to past episodes were pretty neat!

Many have thought he could have handled it so that he got the job and the girl (so to speak). But I believe the way it unfolded was perfect. It was typical Ben – focusing on the power and forgetting the little things that matter (like those he cares about). His redemption came from finally realizing the little things matter.

ps.
@ Dharmaboy -the outgoing principal could have done Alex’s career damage before he left that Ben would not be able to undo

Tonight he said that once Jacob touches you, you cannot die by your own hand.

Therefore, Locke’s suicide attempt would have ended in failure, the same way that Micheal Dawson’s did….and the Oceanic 6 would not have returned.

Is it possible that Ben had to be the one to kill Locke to get them to return? And it was all part of a bigger plan? Perhaps the same is true with Jacob’s death, too.

There are apparently now 6 ‘Candidates’ to replace Jacob. Apparently all the other Candidates are at tbhis juncture bumped-off. Okay, fine. That’s cool…there is now a minor running mystery as to who the 6 are.

I’m writing to say I think Walt is going to be re-introduced at one point as one of these 6. There has been tons of hints & allusions that Walt is somehow super-gifted…prior to his dropping off the radar for good…

If the hallowed writers are all they’re cracked up to be, we are going to see Walt reappear all-grown-up in the next few weeks. If not, the writers are overpaid, and are missing an obvious opportunity to blow our minds.

First, I’m surprised the word “detention” itself hasn’t generated more buzz. It’s a clear synonym for the idea of purgatory or the prison that Sawyer & Flocke so desperately want to escape. In fact, nearly every detail of Ben’s flash sideways was meant as a comment on the hierarchy and hard choices found on the island, especially his thankless service to “the principal” or prime mover. “There’s been a schedule shift” hints at the designed dislocation of time, a decision made above his pay grade.

“Taking care of the kids–that’s what’s important.” There’s no denying Ben has been the ruthless, scheming leader who lost his way, but it can’t be overlooked that the core of his mission has always been his service to the greater good. In particular, Ben has been the patron saint of children. He saved Alex from Widmore, insisted on restoring fertility, kept a collage of children for whom he had some unexplained affection, etc. Alex is the light of his life, but this care extends beyond even her.

It’s fitting that the show brings up Napoleon as an analogy for Ben, an emperor in name only. We tend to think of Napoleon as a dictator and conqueror, but initially he was seen as the great hope for enlightenment. He offered to create a meritocracy in place of primogeniture. He championed arts and sciences, sponsoring the first serious study of the pyramids and egyptology for example. Only later, after he had been corrupted by power, did he become associated with tyranny.

But here is the miniscule detail I really want to focus on: Arzt’s comment about his students lack of understanding of the difference between a genus and a species. This subtly hints again at the process of dehumanizationhappening to those who are claimed, changed, or infected. They look like us, they sound like us, but they are not us. They are of our genus perhaps, but no longer our species!

Doc & Carol, Jacob loves you.

Defend the island.

Someone above mentioned the we don’t know when the FS happened; yes we do, it’s been confirmed that the plane landed at LAX on 9/22/04. The date on Claires ultrasound was dated 10/22/04 but was confirmed by Gregg Nations (and Damon & Carlton as a faulty ultrasound mahine lol, they confirmed the flight as landing on the same date the original 815 crashed on the island).

Last night as the show aired I suspected when Ilana said “6 candidates, there’s only 6 left” this would be a topic on conversation today and yes it has been. We have: Ford,Reyes,Shephard,Austen,Kwon….given what Ben told her about Ilana killing Dogen she knows Jarrah is no longer in play, 108 Wallace is scratched out as is Straume,Littlleton etc etc. Locke is not an option, they buried Locke, she’s counting him so the 6th candidate is indeed open for discussion, there are 6 names not crossed off the Lighthouse Wheel & 1 of them is Jarrah. Given the dialogue from last night since Ilana does not know which Kwon to protect she intends to protect she’s planning to protect both Jin & Sun, it’s likely that’s why shes saying “only 6 left”. However for all we know like Ryan & Jen said the Kwon could be JiYeon.

I wanted to address something regarding Jack when he said “lets go back to where we started”. He did just that…and not just by going to the beach camp where it started; the writers took us all back to where it all started…to season 1 with a slomo and background music of everyone meeting each other, back to the beginning. Yes, the players may have changed but the theme was the same, so IMHO Jack did go back to where it all started. He meant the beach, that’s where it all started.

Lastly excellent writing by Eddie & Adam followed by the amazing acting of Michael Emerson et als. I know you Jen were waiting for this episode with Atherton, knew you were going to love it (as I watched 5 hours before you on the east coast

I think Smokey knows who the candidates are. They are written on the ceiling in his cave. I still think that given the whole Lapidus plot line that he is important and that there was a reason Smokey killed the pilot but guess this will be revealed at a later date…..

But did Widmore know that he would be going back dead? MIB needs him back as a corpse. There is no reason to try to convince him to go back if you only need his body. Just kill him.

Which raises the question: why did Ben feel compelled to kill him?

I did not understand why Ben gave up blackmailing the Principal just for a recommendation for Alex. He could have become the Principal and written the recommendation himself. Also, the Principal did not have much of a choice at that point. He really did not have any bargaining chip. I think they wanted to turnover his character very fast. Ben is a complicated character, and it is unlike him to give up so easily.. My 2 cents..

The character stuff has been superb. In the last three weeks particularly we have had compelling character stories on and off the island, culminating in the best one thus far, the Dr Linus story. Their ability to parallel on-island events with off-island events has always been top notch but this season has been fantastic.

But in presenting these great stories, they are not managing the underlying questions terribly well. Does it matter, I hear you ask? Perhaps not, if you are the sort of person for whom all the issues raised by this show are not considered important. I, on the other hand, and I suspect most of you too, have been drawn to this show not just because of the characters but because of the deliberate insertion of mythology and mystery about the island. Deliberate is the key here. The creators have given us clues throughout the show about all sorts of mysteries and much of our time over the course of this show is theorising about what it all means, from the little stuff to the big stuff. With this comes an expectation that something by way of explanation will be provided. It doesn’t need to be spelled out but we need something. They can’t just be left totally unexplained. For example(s), the whispers. Why was Walt taken? How did Dharma arrive? How does Eloise Hawking fit in? So far, none of us can make sense of this and as the season progresses it seems less likely that we will get any of these types of questions answered, particularly when valuable screen time is taken up with (for example) a man digging a hole, which is great for the character stuff (Ben’s grave) but not good for explaining things.

Perhaps this would be okay if the grand mystery of the show, as embodied by the Jacob/MiB struggle, made sense to us but even that doesn’t. Each week we are all still debating who is good, who is bad, whether they are both good and bad, neither good or bad, and so on. We’ve had seven episodes and it’s getting a little tiresome. Without this context, I’m finding it hard to engage with the story because we don’t understand the larger significance of the story. When Smokey destroys the temple, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I don’t mean I need to know who is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ but I need a better sense of the implications of these events so I can decide whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. For example, people at the temple died. How do I feel about that? I haven’t a clue. They might be victims here, doing good in the world on behalf of Jacob. They might have deserved death because the island is evil. It’s the unexplained mysteries that makes it difficult to engage in the story because we still don’t understand what it all means: what the island is, who Jacob/MiB is and why any of it matters.

Someone above referenced Battlestar Galactica and the final season problems it had. I loved BSG but the final season blows. It felt to me like they wanted to explain their mysteries as a big final reveal in the last episode but what happened was that the whole season felt like treading water until the finale, with no character development or information until the last three episodes or so. Lost is nothing like that because they’ve handled the character stuff so incredibly well. But I think it is a mistake to hold off the big mystery of the island until near the end, which I guess is what they are planning, because we don’t understand the significance of current events. I think this late in the game we shouldn’t be theorising still about so much of the island stuff. We should have more than enough evidence by now to have a strong sense of this overall story, through which we can make sense of the plot. It is this factor that is stopping me from fully enjoying the story.

Well, ladies and gents – Wonderfully touching episode. Who would have thought in season 2 and 3 that Ben Linus would bring me to tears. But they were flowing last night. Emerson was great but I must also give props to Ilana for her “I’ll take you” line – it was perfect.

I think our Lost writers are really serving up some fantastic fare this season. I love that they are taking their time to give us STORY and not JUST answers. There will surely be some great action sequences, as they showed us last week.

Ben’s redemption was just perfect – both on and off Island.

That being said – I want to go see the episode a second time and come back with something more organized for my random thoughts.

I’ll be Back !!

Only disappointment: they should’ve left the inside the submarine shot at the end out and let us wonder. Seemed a little over-the-top, like someone above said.

<<<Steve Says:

March 10th, 2010 at 7:42 am
I’ve never heard of cheese curds until Hurley mentioned it. Chalk up a you learn something new everyday to Lost. Who the heck eats this stuff?

D/C in one of their recent interviews said that it is not necessary for first-season viewers, but that “it is good” for those of us who have followed this yarn from the beginning to observe, analyze and question the (subtle and significant) differences between the pre-crash 815 Losties’ and the L.A.-landed Losties’ lives.

My question for D/C would be: Is your originally-envisioned ‘ending’ to the series pertain only to the very last scene of the final episode?

Good : Evil :: Jacob : MiB
Faith : Reason :: Locke : Jack
Leader : Loner :: Jack : Sawyer
Ugly on the outside, beautiful on the inside : Ugly on the inside, beautiful on the outside :: Hurley : Shannon
Love : Lust :: Sawyer + : Sawyer + Kate
Technology : Nature :: Dharma Initiative : tropical island
Explosion : Implosion :: Nuclear bomb : Magnetic singularity
High-tech travel : Low-tech travel :: modern jetliner : clipper ship

Eternal life vs. longing for death
Ben murdering his father vs. caring for him in old age
Future vs. Past
Love vs. Hate
Winners vs. Losers
Slavery vs. Freedom
Leadership vs. Followers
Choice vs. Predestination
Salvation vs. Doom
Fantasy vs. Reality
Life vs. Death

The island heals people, the island infects people.
Childbirth (creation of life)… that kills the mother
A polar bear… on a tropical island
An island… at the bottom of the ocean
A ship… landlocked
An aircraft… broken on the ground
A temple… where everybody is killed

It goes on, and on, and on, and on. It’s all about opposites, contradictions, and how both can exist simultaneously. People can be both good AND evil, situations can be both good AND bad, depending on the viewpoint.

I think Jacob sees the good in people, whereas MiB sees the bad in them. They’re both right, and they’re both wrong.

In this episode, Ben practically ping-ponged from winner to loser, leader to follower, lovable hero to despised villain, pedophile to mentor, condemnation to forgiveness… and back again… from moment to moment. I nearly got emotional whiplash!

In fact, the whole series seems like the writers just brainstormed opposites (good vs. bad, happy vs. sad, love vs. hate, air vs. earth, etc.) and wove all the examples into one amazing story.

Incredible.

I have no idea where the smoke monster fits, however.

It predates the flight of 815 and we have yet to know clearly and exactly when that was.

Dr. Linus episode gave us a clue that Dharma did exist and he and his father lived there for a time but left.

Ultimate question is how far back in time do the Losties go in order to pick different paths in the flash sideways? How far back were they sent? Each to the same year or to a different point in their separate lives?

@Rusty I love the idea that everyone gets a second choice to make better choices and some will and some won’t.

Maybe when Juliet dies and she says “it worked” she means the war, not the bomb.

Kate could have continued to run, but she chose to go back and pick up Claire. Locke could have continued his “don’t tell me what I can’t do” rant, but chose to accept a job he was suited for. Jack faced his daddy issues, and chose to be a better dad. Sayid tried to leave his violent past behind, but chose to kill to protect the people he loves. And most recently Ben chose between power and helping Alex.

It would be silly to give everyone a happy ending. Instead, we’re seeing everyone facing a choice that will affect their lives. Maybe that’s the ending: that everyone gets a second chance to make better choices. Some will, others won’t.

Loved the beach reunion. Very season 1. But where’s Jin already. Yunjin Kim is in Maxim this month.

Was Widmore typing on a netbook? Like an Asus EEE? Or was it a MacBook AIR?

I feel like I need to dust off my copy of “The Stand” the way things are headed.

I went to HS in Oregon, a state known for its wet, cold, miserable climate AND YET…my school was one of those “all doors lead to the outside” models and you had to walk outside to get from one building to the next. This never made any sense to me. Rumor was that the architect firm that designed the school was from California.

Sayid is a killer, Hurley is lucky, Locke was destined to be in the wheelchair but overcome it, and Jack is a good Dad/person (but not well suited for marriage).

We get to see the core of who they are, and then how this applies to there actions on the island.

Brilliant stuff.

Even if the two timelines don’t merger or resolve in anyway, I’m glad to see the sideways world just to savor the character contrasts.

Oh, and I’m glad that deep down Ben isn’t such a bad guy (still a conniving manipulator though).

I also think it’s connected to Juliet and her final thought of “it worked”. In her final moments of Island life, was she becoming more aware of the Flash sideways? That without the island (and Jacob) she’d have gotten what she always wanted? To be off the island, with her sister, and no memory of Sawyer? Is this what “Locke” is going to do to everyone who accepts the offer? Kill them and they get what they bargained for (and lack thereof)?

I don’t think Widmore is alligned with MIB or Jacob. I think he is a 3rd party, the “Dharma” influence. Hence why Jacob warned “Locke”. I think Widmore may turn out being either just a 3rd person who wants the island because of it’s magical/scientific properties OR he may turn out being the real evil one and MIB/Jacob at least care about it not falling into the wrong hands. Remember how fondly “Locke” spoke about Locke? He said Locke was pathetic, but at least he wanted to stay which he found “admirable.” I think MIB legitimately “loves” the island as well, but he just wants to go home. Maybe something happened to MIB that made him bitter, just like what happened to Ben. Or like Richard. They’re sick of the game.

Smokey doesn’t know for sure who the actual Jacob candidates are. Maybe he is eliminating people as a test to see just *who is* a candidate. He attacks whoever he can. If they die that is just one more name to cross of his list. If he can’t kill them, he knows they are “chosen”. And a person’s status can change. Eko, Kate and Juliet all had encounters with Smokey where he didn’t kill them. I am thinking that later on, Eko’s staus changes because he was unrepentent, making him fare game for a beatin’.

So Elizabeth, I agree with you that candidates/those touched by Jacob cannot be killed/kill each other/kill themselves. However, in response to this: “I think now that the flash sideways have nothing to do with the plane crash; the flashsideways are the lives they would have had had they not been touched by Jacob.” I think that those in the sideways were touched by Jacob and that is why their lives are intwining because whether the plane crashed or not, Jacob still considers them Candidates and they will ultimately get to the island another way… because that is their destiny as someone touched by Jacob.

Finally is response to Carol, I don’t agree that just because Jacob touched you, making you a candidate, that that dictates you are necessarily going to choose Jacob’s side. Even as a candidate, you still have free will to choose sides, and even if you are a rejected candidate, you may still be miraculously allowed to live after an exdperience that normally would be terminal.

As it stands now, I’d say the candidates that are following MIB are Sawyer & Sayid & Claire. Those following Jacob are Hurley and Jack. The others have not really made a choice yet… it just depends on who they happen to be with right now. Kate is which Flocke but did not “choose” to be there. Jin is with no one now but happens to be in Claire’s shelter… that does not mean he has sided with MIB/Flocke. Sun is with Jack and Hurley again, but has not chosen Jacob at this point.

I don’t know who is going to turn as the ultimate “good guys” but I’m pretty sure it will be whatever side Hurley ends up on… that big guy has the biggest heart!…. now there is no guarantee he is going to stay on Jacob’s side….

I was thinking that we have been frustrated by the slow pace after the frantic pace of the past two years. But by telling us the stories this way, we are being made to care about the characters in a different way and feel even more deeply about them. The action will come full speed in the last half of the season but now we’ll have even more of an emotional investment in the outcome. (I didn’t think it was possible to care even more but I do, now I even care about what happens to Ben.)

Not sure who said this above but I agree, let’s enjoy the ride and not set our theories into stone. Keep an open mind because if we get locked into one theory we may miss the real story they are trying to tell us.

———

Micheal is dead, so it doesn’t really matter anymore. But we can assume that is why he was unable to kill himself and could be killed someone or something else.

@Linus-your post about the Looney Tunes made me laugh…that would have been very funny.

@Elizabeth-I too have often wondered about why so many people on the Island are not “allowed” to kill another person…it is very curious. Perhaps the followers of Jacob take a vow not to take another life, but to preserve it? Or Jacob’s “gifts” come with the added bonus of not being able to take another life? I’d like to get my hands on that rule book!

I have always though of Ben as The Great Pretender”, pretending like he was the big man in charge of everything, pretending to know Jacob, pretending that he never killed anyone when we know he killed many. I hope he doesnt’ have a relapse as we barrel toward the finale.

The taking of sides is starting to worry me because I have fav’s on both. We have watched Jack & Sawyer fight it out several times, are we going to see them in some sort of gladiator fight? lol

Locke was defiantly a candidate, right? He could not kill himself, he was touched by Jacob or brought back to life by Jacob and he ends up as UnLocke aka MIB?

It seems like the ep’s are getting more and more intense and I think the Kate ep was just to piss us off and “shake our faith” in the writers because since then they have been revealing the living crap out of things. I think each new ep will offer a faster pace, more jaw dropping moments and multiple answers and we will just have our socks blown off week after week!!

Finally, the Lost writers remind me of Rappers. They take classic well known and loved stories, tweak them and make them fresh yet intrigue you and make you go back and re-visit the original masterpiece’s.

I cried, I’m so invested in Ben that my relief when he followed Ilana was palpable. I just didn’t want him to go to (what I will presume is) the dark side again.

I thought it was interesting how Ben and Locke mirror one another in terms of wanting to feel special in some way. Locke’s mum managed to hook him by saying how special he was, and we know he’d been watched and tested by Richard. Ben, as a child on the Island, received such poor attention from his dad that he was easily charmed by Richard when they met.

Also thought Ilana’s comment about Jacob being as near to a father to her as it gets was a telling one, especially in the light of the Easter Egg comments above the lighthouse mirror about daddy issues. We’ve joked about daddy issues all through the series. In the flashes sideways we seem to be seeing a world without daddy issues. Jack may not be as close to his father, but is a good father himself (and in the same episode, Jacob tells Hurley to say something to Jack that we know he’d always wanted to hear from his father). Locke is happy to invite his dad to the wedding, Ben is caring for his father instead of gassing him. Back on the Island, Jacob is taking a paternal interest and role. Not sure what it means, but will be watching to see if it continues. It also adds extra weight to the ‘killing of the father’ habit. Again, not sure what that means, but it struck me…

I loved them dropping in ‘The Chosen’ (another of my fave books growing up and about religion and faith). Jack is not only a man of faith now, but is also spreading his message – but even a scientist starts to recognise patterns (ie. the overwhelming return to the Island theme).

In the podcast you guys were talking about what Miles said last season about them always going from the hatch to the beach and back again. How great would it have been if someone had said something about their being only one conclusion and in-between it’s all progress ;p

I really have no idea where it’s all headed, but I love that they can weave in so many themes so deeply while keeping a narrative structure and characters we all love.

Now.. off to listen to the rest of the podcast and then read all these comments.

Some interesting reveals.

Jacob had hope for Ben right up until he stabbed him? The whole time I thought he wanted Ben to kill him.

Also, Lapidus was supposed to be on the original 815 flight!? That explains why Smokey killed the 1st pilot…mistaken identity.

In my opinion, we might as well stop calling them “flash sideways” and start calling them what they are…they are clearly flash forwards. I believe that whichever side (good or evil) that people are choosing on the island…is determining the course of their fate AFTER jughead blows and kills Jacob’s nemesis once and for all in the last episode. As others have said, we are going to understand that the flash sideways have actually been the flash forwards all along because we’ll see Jack get the injury that caused the scar on his neck from the season premiere.

the writers keep blowing me away. this show is incredible.

MIBLocke revealed some of his motive. He wants to have his man protect the island. So, he admits now that the island is a thing he wishes to protect, though he does not want to do it. Seems to me he wants to acquire the island for his own.

I like this show much more when I watch its narrative develop and I don’t worry the details. Good versus evil, deity fighting deity, deity fighting angel, I don’t care to know more than the show narrates. When it’s over, there will be ample opportunity to evaluate and judge what the writers said and meant. Now, however, is the time to listen carefully and attentively to its story.

Thanks Ryan & Jen for the great podcast! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!

Mahalo,
Linda Y. in Los Angeles

I still wonder who it was Ben was having Sayid kill when they left the island. I think it’s people who used the island to change their destinies and Ben was following Jacob’s orders to set time right by removing them from the timeline.

At first I was thinking the incident changed them by sending them back 1977, (which is why Jack’s appendix burst) but that wouldn’t account for Ben because he had already been dipped in the sacared waters at the temple at that point. So wouldn’t he have already been bad since it was already 1977 for him he couldn’t be sent back there. Confusing.

Also huge waste of Lapidus and Sun this season, I feel sorry for the actors just having a few lines each show yet having to dedicate a year of their of lives to the show.

I feel like we got a lot of great answers too-things are starting to fall together, and this definitely felt like we’re leading up to the end. I was definitely feeling the nostalgia that Ben referred to in the episode. Can’t believe it’s almost over! If the rest of the season is like this, I’m going to love every second of it.

I also loved Jack in this episode. I think we’ve seen the full transition to “Man of Faith” by our former doubting Thomas. I can’t wait to see what’s in store for his character!

Quite honestly, this may have been my favorite episode of LOST ever. I don’t think I’ve ever enjoyed 45 minutes of television more. At least in my top five. Of course, I’ve got a serious Ben bias, so whenever he’s at the center of an episode, I’m all for it. The only thing that was “off” to me was the last three minutes. Didn’t really care for the montage-seemed overly cheesy and forced. I get that they were going for the Season 1 feel, but it just didn’t work for me. I also agree with an above poster that the “thud” moment wasn’t as “holy freaking crap” as it could have been. We knew someone was coming to the Island and that it was probably Widmore. Guess we’ll have to wait to see what that’s about.

Anyhoo, love the podcast, and can’t wait until it’s back in full swing next week!

Anyhoo, Miles and Hurley had funny lines, but I think Jack had the best funny line, more funny because Jack doesn’t do funny.

“Wanna try another stick?”

Hilarious.

Reminds me of the industry mogul in the movie “Contact”.

“Wanna go for a ride?”

Spoiler: The writers mentioned one hint about the season ending – I’ll write this backwards: owt strap negordyh, eno trap negyxo. They are heading to the Hydra station. The beginning of the end, obviously.

The Black Rock – a bottomless pit of dynamite. When does it ever run out or is there a magic dynamite box? The Black Rock is just an older version of the freighter, with dynamite instead of C4. It’s amazing it hasn’t blown up yet.

If Miles wanted to make money in the mainland, he should just go to a cemetery and see what he uncovers. Gives a new meaning to whistling past the graveyard.

I liked the parallel where Ben said he could never forgive himself for Alex’s death. Back in the temple, Jack said he didn’t even trust himself. So much self flagellation.

The suicide club: Locke, Jack, Charlie, Richard, Michael, who else am I missing?

And how many times has XXX’s gonna die been said on this show?

I believe Jin is recovering in Claire’s shelter. We last saw him when Claire was introducing Locke as her “friend.” I think he will reappear when Kate, Sawyer, and the rest of Flocke’s flock come together. Perhaps at the hydra?

Has anyone noted that this ep is kind of a “Groundhog’s Day” phenomenon, where people are given as many chances as possible to “make good”? Theories of reincarnation poses a similar idea… that we keep coming back until we get it right.

This episode was so incredibly touching in that way. Ben finally saw a choice in front of him– the exact same choice he faced on the island with his daughter– and given all of the alterverse phenomena that have happened with him (including digging his own grave– hilarious double entendre there– and then being accepted back by Alana), he finally “gets it.” The look on his face as Alex walked away with her group of friends was priceless.

If Benry can make good, I’m hoping and praying some of our other great peeps will make it too– Sawyer, Kate, Sayid….

Connie from Oregon, are you the former Connie from Alaska? I’ve always loved your posts. Hope Oregon is treating you well!

Lost is incredibly, utterly mindblowing and wonderful. Thanks Damon and Carlton!!

But back onto the episode. Michael Emerson is an actor who doesn’t get enough credit for what he does. In the last ten minutes of the show, his scene with Illana was incredible. The emotion he put into the line, “only Locke will take me.” should win him some award, yet with them pretty much over, well yeah.

Anyway, I’m glad Charles Widmore is coming back, yet I remember (like the ticker at the bottom of last weeks episode said) Charlies told Locke that if he didn’t go back to the island, the wrong side would win. Now as we all know Locke did go back to the island, but it seems as if the wrong side is winning. So was Locke supposed to go back to the island alive in order for Jacob to win and is Charles coming to the island due to Jacob being killed? Will wee see Eleanore Hawking, Penny, Desmond, and their son Charlie also? And another question I have is if Eleanore Hawking is Daniel Faraday’s mother, why is Daniel’s last name not Hawking or Widmore? Oh and if Eleanore knew she was going to kill him on the island, why didn’t she try to stop it from happening, unless she knew that the only way to cure him of his illness, that he would have to go to the island. Hmmmm.

@Eric from Ohio- I understand your points but I do not believe this is a Jesus vs. The Devil issue with Jacob being Jesus and MIB being the devil. Jacob’s followers have done some questionable things as has Jacob himself. IF going with the Jesus theory how does one reconcile the fact that those are things that Jesus would never do or condone.

Anybody watch the enhanced version of Sundown? It states the flash sideways is a result of the plane not crashing. But how could that be? Ben and Dogen were not on that plane. How could it not crashing change their lives so drastically.

I still believe that the flash sideways is the result of the war that will take place on the island. After the war, the island sends them back in time before Jacob put them on his candidate list. Whatever they resolve on the island will give them the power to make better choices in the flash sideways which is their present life.

Thanks for the podcasts away from home Ryan! They really do make a difference!

Ben has been my favorite character during this whole series. His nature, deviousness, evil and pragmatism are always well balanced. This redemption has been both a new direction and an homage to how people can change and grow and even use their talents for good. I am glad Ben is here to stay and I am glad Ben made both wise choice in both worlds

Jack and Richard I like where this is going. Its amazing how Jack has grown into his “faith” now. How much he is sounding like Locke and how much he now sees that even though he doesn’t have all the answers he has direction. I like that. I never cared much for Jack and Kate, but this piece of Jack redemption was nice. Now when Kate dies, this will be complete.

Sun…CAN SUN PLEASE SEE JIN NOW BECAUSE THIS IS JUST GETTING REDICULOUS!!!!! Sorry for shouting lol

It’s been three years since they were buried alive. Remember, he can hear their last thoughts. They’ve been dead for a long time, so he can’t really save them.

I’ve been pondering Widmore’s timeline. He starts on the island as follower in the ’50s. He becomes leader and partner to Eloise. He meets the losties in the ’70s. He is banished by Ben. He finds the island with the freighter, but that mission fails. He meets with Sun about killing Ben. He helps Locke as he appears in Tunisa. He gets a call from Ben saying he was about to kill his daughter. Now, somehow, he’s on a submarine headed to the island. Whose side is he on? Have the others always been loyal to Jacob, or was there a time they were loyal to MiB? Did he place some sort of tracking device on Sun?

Mostly, I felt the pace of the story was rushed and a lot of the dialogue seemed forced. It is starting to take a pace of “oh crap we have to wrap this up so talk faster”.

Also, the slo-mo reunion scene on the beach. The writers said this season was going to have a season 1 feel to it and I think they are trying too hard to add some of that season 1 magic. I always loved it when the characters who were strangers once were happy to see each other after being apart, but the reunion here seemed contrived and tired.

There was a time when the Widmore ending would have had a more clever reveal than it did. I felt like it was sorta undramatic and flat

I didn’t really buy Richard’s behavior. Seemed way out of character for him to be so full of despair, and we seemingly have no foreshadowing of this. Again this adds to the feeling of them trying to rush the story to completion.

The resolution of Ben’s story seemed extremely predictable to me. OK I get it people in sideways world are all deciding to be better people. That he made the right unselfish choice wasn’t much of a surprise in spite of the little head fake they gave us at the end.

I did like Jack and the dynamite. Although I thought it was a little incongruous with the ‘rules’ that have been set up. Richard tells Jack he can’t kill himself but someone else can light the dynamite to kill him when we know the real rules are you cannot die until the island is through with you. Even if Jack hadn’t sat there with him I woulda bet my paycheck the dynamite wasn’t going to go off. Again another predictable no-drama moment.

Sorry but I just can’t get on board with this being a good episode.

Kaneohe_Jack — I agree, writing Gods. That they can do so very very much in so little time and dialog is astounding. They weave thread with the care and precision that Jacob did in the making of his tapestry. In this regard, the metaphor continues: Lost itself is a tapestry.

@Daniel in BC — I just read on Lostpedia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Candidates) –> “It has been confirmed by Carlton Cuse that Kate’s name was on the cave wall, but regrettably did not make the final edit. He also confirmed her name was crossed out on the cave wall”. But, the cave wall writing is messy and sloppy, not at all Jacob’s style. I say that the “list” there is not at all the same list as Jacob’s, but perhaps MIB’s list of who he is trying to recruit. This potentially leaves Austen as a Candidate.

—

“Bokonists believe that humanity is organized into teams, that do God’s will without ever discovering what they are doing. Such a team is called a karass.”

—

Borrowing further from Vonnegut, a dupras is a karass of two, whose focus is each other, an inseperable dyad. Yin/Yang. Jacob/MIB. Bernard/Rose. Sun/Jin. In regard to the candidates, “Kwon” refers to *both* Sun and Jin, for they were touched at once by Jacob, making them one.

—

Candidates:

08 Reyes
23 Shephard
42 Kwon
51 Austen

My vote goes to…. drum roll… open the envelope… Hurley. He is, after all, who the fans would want most to achieve the distinction, yes? And he does continue to see Jacob. And he has been most touched by the Numbers.

I can’t believe we have to wait another week to see what the hell Widmore is doing on that sub! Augh!

As for the “candidates” – didn’t we learn tonight that Sun is the candidate – not Jin? Lots of comments above suggesting that which Kwon was still unclear. Based on tonight, I’m still wondering about Lapidus. Remember that Smokey killed the pilot first on the island and of course the pilot was supposed to be Lapidus. Did he kill the pilot because he thought he was a candidate?

I could have lived without all of the Artz stuff but did love the connection with the dynamite.

oh lol nvm

Austin’s name was crossed out