The Season 5 finale gave us the widest view yet of what’s been unfolding on the The Island, and for that, I’m thrilled. But the Season 5 finale also honed in on some of our character’s most petty failings, and for that, we’re both somewhat annoyed. Frankly, Jen was livid. I like the suggestion that we’ve been watching only the latest round in a perpetual battle between light and dark — one in which our survivors finally opened a “loophole” for the dark forces to gain the upper hand. I don’t like the idea that the huge, dramatic, cataclysmic detonation of the Jughead core we’ve been building up to all season came only as the result of more twists in the “para-love-ogram.”
Let’s start with what I liked. Though “like” is dependent entirely on the foolhardy presumption that my interpretation of what we’ve seen with Jacob is right. Based solely on the opening scene, no less. To wit:
Jacob is light, goodness, benevolence. His nemesis, yet unnamed, is dark, petty, judgemental. Perhaps for an eternity, they have battled on The Island. But they cannot vanquish each other directly. The Island is largely the chess board, and the pieces are men. Imperfect, flawed humans. By the time the Black Rock arrives, they’ve been through the cycle many times. Jacob summoned another group, believing they might avoid self destruction. Darkness says, “It always ends the same.”
So the Black Rock, the Dharma Initiative, perhaps even The Others, and most certainly the survivors of Flight 815… each group came to the island, struggled over leadership, and self destructed.
Richard Alpert, perpetual advisor, serves Jacob by trying to guide and protect whomever is the leader: Eloise (who Richard called his leader in 1977), Ben (whom Richard and perhaps Jacob felt was ultimately an inadequate leader), and Locke (who Richard presumed to be special, even if it was Locke that gave him that idea in the first place). Darkness, meanwhile, acts through visions, or actually possessing the form of the dead. Christian Shephard. Alex. Perhaps Claire. And, yes, the late Locke, whom we now know isn’t Locke. We’ll call him Dark Locke.
Jacob is compassionate and feels for these flawed people. He visits them, literally touches them, perhaps merely knowing their path, or perhaps steering them. However the cycle ends, he knows it must end.
But something happened with Oceanic Flight 815. Something about this last cycle was different. And the why and how are, most likely, part of what awaits in Season Six. Nonetheless, the combination of The Incident, of Desmond turning the failsafe, of Eloise sending them back on Ajira 316 but scattering them through time — this whole convoluted series events, the entirety of the last five seasons of “LOST” — has led us to the loophole. The loophole that allowed Darkness to vanquish Jacob, with Ben as his instrument.
What is the loophole?
I can only guess by guessing at the rules. Only the leader can enter the temple. There can be only one leader. And the leader, essentially, decides who wins. Darkness, through manipulating the leader with visions and the reanimated dead, has probably brought the leader to Jacob dozens or hundreds of times. Each time, the leader has probably arrived, ready to reject and kill Jacob. But once inside, alone, Jacob appeals to the leader’s better self, gives them a choice, and they always choose light.
Darkness found his loophole through Locke. I’m not sure exactly when, but Locke had been the key for a while. Locke eventually died. And, yes, Locke is still dead. But with his body returned to the island, Darkness was able to take the form of Locke, becoming Dark Locke, and bewilder everyone — including Ben and, curiously, Richard — with his knowledge of The Island. He asserts many times that he is the leader. And he repeatedly taunts Ben for never having made the cut with Jacob.
Dark Locke brings everyone to Jacob. He, the supposed leader, goes into Jacob’s lair, and insists on bringing Ben. Why? Because Ben is the leader. Ben’s been the leader ever since he returned on Ajira 316 and woke up in the infirmary, because Locke is still dead. That’s the loophole. And Dark Locke, having goaded Ben during the entire journey, looses his jealousy and insecurity and rage, and Ben, the leader, stabs Jacob and throws him into the fire.
The end?
Of course not. With his last breath, Jacob says, “They’re coming.” Who? My guess, perhaps obviously, is that “they” are everyone misplaced in time, back in 1977, who are near the Swan and subjected to the universe-twisting combination of electromagnetism and a hydrogen bomb blast. My guess for Season 6 is that everyone is reunited in 2007, but Darkness rules The Island, and the epic battle will be these imperfect, flawed humans trying to vanquish him.
But I could be completely wrong.
For example, where does the smoke monster fit? Is it an agent of Darkness? I’m inclined to think so, since it does stand in judgment of men, finding them unworthy and destroying them much as I imagine Darkness would. It could also be the agent through which Darkness assumes the form of the dead, such as both Alex and Dark Locke in the temple. Jen’s question, though, is how Ben became familiar enough with it to use it for his own means. It may be more likely that the smoke monster is a free agent.
Where do Bram and Ilana fit? Given the riddle, I guess they’re aligned with Alpert, and therefore presumably Jacob. What role will they play? I certainly hope it’s something more significant than teasing viewers with a mystery box for half a season. And if we now know that Ilana always knew Locke was in that box, she was obviously not surprised by seeing Dark Locke eating a mango in “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.” How can she not be surprised by Dark Locke, but Alpert be apparently merely suspicious? And could they actually be agents of Darkness? After all, in the opening scene in the ancient past, it’s Darkness who calls Jacob “my friend.”
And if we’ve actually been watching pawns on a chess board, manipulated by Jacob and Darkness, it’d be somewhat disheartening to imagine that the longstanding battle between crafty and clever Ben and rich industrialist Charles Widmore is essentially insignificant. There has to be more to it.
Yet, Ben was goaded into killing Jacob after decades of servitude simply by becoming a petulant, whiny, sore loser. Juliet reverses herself halfway through the “Stop Jack” mission, simply because Sawyer looked at Kate funny. And Jack admits that his talk about destiny was all a crock: he wants to detonate a deadly hydrogen bomb simply because he blew it with Kate. Sayid is shot, valiantly rigs the bomb to go off on impact, but it doesn’t. Juliet dies, but doesn’t, but does, because Jack didn’t detonate the bomb, she did. And Miles gets the throwaway line about how their actions are creating the events they’re trying to stop… all bringing us to the big dramatic blast that wasn’t, because it was effectively “defused” by all the character machinations that led up to it.
The preceding paragraph is essentially why Jen went to bed angry. Here’s hoping she’s feeling a little more charitable by the time we record our podcast.
Notes and Notions:
- Damon Lindeloff and Carlton Cuse hinted that the end of this Season 5 finale would be like the end of the Season 1 finale, and it was. Just as we saw nothing at the bottom of the hatch after Locke finally blew it open, we saw nothing after the bright white flash of Jughead. It’s a cliffhanger in only the faintest sense of the word. No tangible piece of what may come in Season 6 beyond “they’re coming.”
- If the “what’s in the box” teases weren’t enough, what’s the deal with Hurley’s guitar case? We know Jacob gave it to him, which is great, but… really? Will we just not know? Or will it be blasted into 2007 alongside Hurley to taunt us in Season 6?
- When Juliet said, “Live together, die alone,” didn’t you want to punch her in the face?
- Juliet’s death was wrenching, but probably would’ve been moreso if she hadn’t essentially dumped Sawyer two scenes earlier. It doesn’t look good for Sayid, either. And while it was good to see Phil get skewered, I really felt Sawyer deserved to have his death under his belt, rather than a random pipe.
- I’m not sure whether Jacob’s visits with all our characters were meant to direct them to their fates or change them. They made a point of showing him physically touch each of them, tapping Kate on the nose, holding young Sawyer’s hand a moment when handing him a pen. But it seems odd that Jacob helps revive Locke after falling from a high rise, but doesn’t do much more than give Jack an Apollo Bar.
- I really liked how Rose and Bernard were handled, even if I’m pretty sure this is the last we’ll see of them (beyond perhaps more explicit confirmation that they’re the “Adam and Eve” skeletons from Season 1). Their dismay at being found was hilarious. They got the lives they always wanted, they retired from the cycle of violence, and they’re happy to die as long as they’re together. Aww…
- We saw Vincent, too, but he’s now a mystery to me. If he survives the hydrogen bomb blast in 1977, he’s not likely to still be around in 2007. Unless he’s thrown through time along with Jack and friends. I can’t think of any other way Vincent makes it to the end of Season 6, as the creators seem to suggest he will.
- I liked how Bram called Frank a “yahoo.” Since it turned out that Frank was only pretending to be unconscious, I would’ve enjoyed having him pop up to respond to the word like he did in Season 4. He also got the great line, “In my experience the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.”
- Talk about writing themselves out of a corner. Jughead already shrunk by several feet between “Jughead” and “Follow the Leader.” But after talking so much about its size and weight, turns out all we need is the core, which conveniently fits in a backpack. Now we can walk it over to the Swan!
- Some of the flashbacks were so short, and linked so plainly to the scenes that followed, I would’ve rather not seen them. Juliet’s parents got divorced, so that’s why she dumps Sawyer! Sayid watched Nadia die in the street, so that’s why he’s ready to die after being shot! Jacob recruited Ilana, and Jacob put Hurley on Ajira 316! It felt off.
- When Locke was thrown through the window, didn’t he bring a cascade of broken glass with him? The way he drops, singularly, with a thud before Jacob walks up seemed a bit strange. And were they suggesting Jacob saved Sayid’s life by pulling him back off the street?
- I can forgive Miles’ anvilicious “what if this causes the incident” epiphany because he also had the great line after Jack said the plan is not to go back in time. “Right, because that would be ridiculous.”
- Snarky Ben is fun. “I’m a Pisces.” Or, “I lied. It’s what I do.” Or when Sun asks Ben if he expects her to believe he doesn’t know about the statue. “Not really.”
- I liked that Sun found Charlie’s Drive Shaft ring in Aaron’s old crib, and that Charlie was mentioned in Jacob’s conversation with Hurley (along with Libby). Interesting how some long lost characters still get shoutouts, while many others don’t.
- Book: “Everything that Rises must Converge” by Flannery O’Connor. Interestingly, Jen’s working her way through an anthology of O’Connor short stories right now.
- Locations: Too many to list completely. Sun and Jin got married at the Byodo-In Temple in Kaneohe. Locke fell out of the Waikiki Landmark highrise on Kalakaua Avenue in Waikiki. Young Kate shoplifted from a small store near Haleiwa (the name escapes me at the moment, but we mentioned it on our podcast). Young Sawyer’s funeral was at a church in Ewa Villages. Hurley was released from the Oahu Community Correctional Center on Dillingham Blvd. Nadia was killed at the corner of Auahi and Kamani streets off Ward.
What did you think? Comment below, call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127, or e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com.
Wow!!!!
I need to sleep. And re-watch this epi again before posting all the thoughts running through my head but –
WOOHOOOO – bye bye Phil
(yes!)
WoooHooooHoooooo – Rose, Bernard AND Vincent. 🙂 The only one that was missed was a final verdict or status on Claire.
One question – if Jack’s bomb re-sets the island wouldn’t it re-set it WAY back, to the beginning of the island’s existence and not just our 815ers flight?
I had a horrible/crazy thought at the very beginning of the opening sequence. *Holy F-Bomb, it’s all been an RPG* I hope not, but I did have that thought.
Wow. Best show ever. Best episode ever. Next season will completely rock.
Does the bomb take out the statue? Does everyone go back in time? If so, everything still has to come together.
The episodes with Des and Charlie showing that what has to happen will happen just show that everyone will end up on the island and go through everything that happens in season 1-5 whether it happens the way it happened in this timeline or another – just like Charlie had to die, but it didn’t always happen exactly the same way.
No words. Need to see again and digest it all. Can’t believe we have 8 months to wait to find out what happens.
I havent read all the other comments yet but I guess I got a real different take on Jacob. To me he seamd like the “dark” one! something about him.
Where is Locks coffin? Why did Illana and gang have a big metal box? Is this another “what ever you want is in the box” box?
How do we know Illanas Lock is the real one?
Lock didnt seam special to Richard after seeing him 3X….why did he need to see him way back then?
Juilet going down the hole reminded me of the French dude and smokey. Glad she kept her arm. I was actualy screaming at the TV “NO! When Juliet let go. I actualy cried. LOL I REALLY love the Sawyer Juliet paring!
The statue looked like it had a Croc. head.
Biggest question for me….what was up with that look between Bernard and Juilet? Like they both knew something the others didnt. If we go back in time Rose will still have Cancer. : ( . .
I see Lock (or who ever he is) is really controling Ben now…it was like they reversed places.
I had throught Richard was from the Egyption era. OOPS! But why the name change?
Ive been thinking a lot about the Adam and Eve thing. Wondering if the island is a sort of eden where healing takes place. The bible story has a tree of life (this would keep people alive a long time) and a tree os Knowaldge of Good and evil (Bens lost innocence.)
I have to say I ddint like the end. Not too excited about the whole show tonight. Left me not wanting more if they just go on with their lives.
Question from the past….what happened to Jin and who ever that was who had a baby who he took a giant stuffed animal to.
Well at first I thought it was the story of Job based on the challenge issued by who the posters are calling Anti-Jacob, but it seems a variation on it. Yin and Yang are more suitable. They even wore shirt colors to help us out.
So, now the question to be answered is “Was everything Jacob offered a choice and passive?” at least relative to the individual he contacted or interacted with. This implies that Smoky might be an Anti-Jacob manifestation and the temple is where he lives. My crackpot theory for the summer. Did Hurley bring Jacobs Ace in the Hole in that guitar case? Hmmmmm…
I think there will be much to rehash but there is one important thing I HAVE to point out…why does everyone assume Juliet is dead? Her fate will be the same as all the other Losties…if they flash, so will she…they are all close enough to the bomb to die from it being detonated. If you think she is going to die from her injuries then I remind you the island heals. 🙂 That said, I also think it was important that Jacob touched everyone in some way/some how. The only one in the past he didn’t touch? Juliet. 🙁
Jacob was definitely referring to the Losties as the ones who were coming. This leads me to believe he knew all along what was happening. He had to have known b/c of all the work he did going to visit, etc. Why then did he save/revive Locke? Interesting…Also, for being so smart he was REALLY stupid to say to Ben, “What about you?”
Once they showed Frank look in the box I knew it was Locke. Locke just became more and more evil as the episode went on.
Here is my theory, the man sitting with Jacob at the beginning of the episode is now in the form of Lock. Who is this man? I believe it’s the smoke monster in a human form.
It got me to thinking, when they pressed the button every 108 minutes in the Swan station what phyiscally happens? Does a rod or stick go into a hole or some cover gets moved or something else yet to be seen?
I wonder why the other guy in the beginning of the episode wanted to kill Jacob?
First off, amazing episode. Probably one of my favorites, definitely top 3, up there with “The Constant”
Here are some thoughts I had before I scour the rest of the comments…
1. Where was Desmond and Penny? (besides Penny being in that stupid teaser for “what did you see?”
2. Did anyone else get the feeling that Juliet KNEW she had to do this. Maybe someone from Dharmaville told her that SHE caused the “Incident.”
3. Continuation… if the episode is called “The Incident” then, THIS happened all along, right? So they won’t land in L.A. Just my predictions… but then, when does Dharma get reinstated after the incident.
4. Another flash… remember season 3 ending? Last time that happened, a plane got sucked in, so it is 1977, what could THIS flash be drawing to the island? Any ideas?
5. The bomb reminded me of something else… So, certain REALLY large fires, I have heard that if you detonate a bomb near the flame, the burst will extinguish it. I got the sense that blowing up the bomb actually SAVED the losties so stuff wouldn’t just KEEP getting sucked into the hole.
6. Ideas about Anti-Locke… I agree with some of the other posters, I think he IS the manifestations from the Smoke monster, and perhaps IS the smoke monster. I believe he just manifests himself as Locke, Alex, and perhaps others.
7. I get the sense that there is a balance at play, with Jacob and Anti-Jacob, that they both need each other but don’t LIKE each other. I REALLY like the white/black good/bad metaphors that were scattered throughout the past 5 seasons, and especially in this episode.
Well, I think I will stop there. I hope next season brings back a few things…(another list)
1. Desmond and Penny
2. Ben and Widmore
3. Claire, Christian, etc.
4. Jacob and Anti-Jacob
5. Juliet and Daniel
6. Pierre Chang
7. The Numbers!
Cheers!
Evan
stay LOST
@LostNTonic
RPG? Lol,
“I can’t kill you”
“damn right, just picked up my invulnerability shield”
“hmmm, looks like I need to find a loophole in that whole invulnerability thing”
Holy freakin’ crap! That is all for now. 🙂
The Greek is verse 6.180 of the Odyssey
English: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0136
may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires
Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0135
[σοὶ δὲ] θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φÏεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς,
Also, when Ben and fake Locke go to see Jacob, a fragment of Odyssey 24.402 is shown
English: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0136
hail to thee, and all welcome, and may the gods grant thee happiness
Greek: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/…3A1999.01.0135
[οὖλέ τε καὶ μάλα χαῖÏε, θεοὶ δέ τοι] ὄλβια δοῖεν.
@Jason from Virginia
ille quos nos omnes servabit
He who will protect us all
They said they’d kill off ONE more main character, but it looks like both Sayid and Juliet are dead… well, as dead as you can be if you just flashed to the new timeline/past/future.
I can’t really comment on this episode. I just… can’t comprehend it.
One thing my sister suggested though is that if you want to look at it from a Biblical perspective, maybe anti-Jacob is Moses or something? This is mostly gotten from where Ben says Locke was marched up to the cabin like he was Moses. I don’t know the Bible at all though, so it’s just a guess.
I liked the episode alot and i will not go to bed angry. here’s why:
there are two stories going – one is the earthly conflict between the losties and the others and the dharma initiative, etc. the other is the spiritual battle between jacob and anti-jacob (esau?). the addition of this second part of the story may be a little “deus ex machina” for some people, but i am relieved to know that the story is much deeper than just a struggle by billionaires and radicals for a magical island.
“they’re coming” – i think this is in reference to Alana, who i think is the leader of a group of neo-holy warriors who come to fight in the name of Jacob.
Locke – finding out that Locke was ultimately the victim of the longest of long cons (by anti-jacob) was extremely satisfying for me. i was never a fan of “the man of faith > the man of science” that’s been going on for most of the show. Locke’s faith led him astray, and he got conned worse than anything his father ever did to him. I loved this.
Ben – why was ben involved in the killing of jacob? because anti-jacob could not do it himself. why does ben get to control the smoke monster? because ben is the key to anti-jacob’s plan. the smoke monster judges the people who were touched by jacob, but not in the way we think. the smoke monster judges them in terms of whether or not they will make a good “mark” for the con. Locke is the “mark” and Ben is the “patsy”. a patsy like lee harvey oswald in a way.
Jack, Sawyer, Juliet, Kate, etc – don’t get mad at these guys for acting the way they acted. Jacob brought them here fully knowing the weaknesses of man. Sawyer hit it directly on the head when he said that a man doesn’t do something unless he wants something. the forbidden fruit was dangling, and they all could not resist but take a bite. they are human, and therefore imperfect.
just my two cents…
All I have to say is sanctus concubitus fimus! (Latin for Holy Freakin’ Crap!)
Some weak points, but overall a superb finale to a superb season. Josh Holloway deserves an Emmy (at least!) for that gut wrenching moment watching watching Juliet slip away into the dark well. I have never cried during a single moment of Lost. I did then.
So there really IS a Jacob, he has a rival, and he lives in the shadow of the statue. They are Good and Evil personified. This must all be explained in season six. First qualification of a perspective LOST writer: masochism.
Finally, isn’t it obvious that Sayid’s “modification” to the bomb was to disarm it? I mean, we didn’t really hear an explosion – just a flash to white. The last minute introduction by Miles of the concept that exploding the bomb may actually cause the incident rather than repel it seems to support the conclusion.
Wow after reading Ryan and Jens blog, I feel real bad that they didn’t enjoy it.
I still have alot on my mind… I’m thinking of how to spin this weave…
I didn’t think this was the strongest episode and was somewhat disappointed in all the things that Ryan and Jen mentioned. We seem to have set the stage next years battle between the dark and light. The island is the chess board, the humans are the chess pieces and who besides Vincent will be left standing at the end?
I was impressed in the first hour as to how many questions were answered but I just didn’t think the writers explained why the characters were making the decisions they made over the next hour.
Well, we have 8 months to ponder the “incident”.
Could Jacob and Anti-Jacob be like the brothers on Star trek played by Frank Gorshin? the Half White/ Black brothers.
Wow. First, I just want to get off my chest how wrong I was about pretty much everything–I fell into the “kill Jacob” meant he was going to debunk the MYTH of Jacob, so clearly I have no clue what the hell is going on with this show!
I was a little dismayed by the whole episode and really felt like I needed to immediately watch it again, except that it was WAY past my bedtime so that’ll have to wait for tonight. I had a lot of the same thoughts wrt so many of the events being controlled by the love quadrangle. I found that kind of irritating. I mean, I was happier thinking Jack was doing all this in an attempt to save lives. That made sense to me. He’s a doctor! Whee! But he’s doing it because he lost Kate? WTF? Hello, if the plane lands, she’s going to prison for-freakin-ever. And then Juliet does the 180 because Sawyer looks at Kate at a dramatic moment. Puh-lease. To me, both those actions were very far outside what we know of those characters to this point.
But, the good part is I’m totally confused, yet starting to see where this is going. I actually see the connection to The Stand a lot more clearly now. There’s a definite good vs. evil battle going on that was bigger than we had known. Who these 2 entities are and what the heck they’re doing on the island I guess is for season 6. In The Stand, it’s really black & white: Mother Abigail is working for God and Randall Flagg is the devil. 99.4% of the population has died and they’re fighting for control of the remainder.
The interesting question that I was left with, even as tired as I was last night, was whether Jughead’s explosion changed anything. Sorry if I’m repeating prior posts, but there are already too many to read, so I’ll risk being repetitive. Didn’t “The Incident” already happen? The electromagnetic energy was released. Does the bomb change that? And if you could have just exploded after the release of energy, why the rush to get there before it happens? I guess for me to understand that I’d have to understand the point of detonating an h bomb in a pocket of electromagnetic energy, and I totally don’t. But I’m thinking things still are how they are, absent Juliet’s radiated self.
Oh boy, 8 months!!
So when Richard tell Sun that he saw them all die, that didn’t happen in this episode. So obviously they are still alive, in the past. Unless he lied to Sun.
@ aaronavilla
i think you nailed it my man.
@stubble
The second section of the greek you have is from the scene where Odyseus kills all the men who have been living in his house, sleeping with his servants, drinking his wine, eatting his food and trying to get with his wife.
Not sure about the first one…
ANYWAY….
i was laying in bed last night thinking…
there’s only so many things that could happen right?!
1. It all resets..everything…
but then this would mean the revelation about Jacob and AJ and Locke is pointless, just as pointless as the other losties experiences.
2. It resets for everyone but Jacob and AJ…
but then this means we have an evil Locke and good Locke running around the island?
3. It resets but they all keep their memories?
4. Nothing resets and the losties in the 70s shoot back into the future..
but then this means Sayid is a goner for sure. (on that note, who thought miles..the same guy being tourtured by Locke with a grenade in the mouth would outlive Sayid!)
5. It resets…but the losties are still in the 70s?!
6. It resets….but the losties are reset back in the black rock times?
7. Radioactive mutants vs body snatching zombies
I’m sure thier are more, but I personally don’t care…
ALL I WANT…
is the classic villian moment…
where evil Locke, or AJ, or SOMEONE (hello richard? speak up any time now buddy) stops whatever they are doing and just explains why the bad guy does/did what he did.
That’s all…
I hate just having a good and evil fight…
what’s the motivation for evil to be evil?
@ jesse again
The motive for evil and the motive for good are one in the same. You essentially can’t have one without the other.
What makes evil, evil? Well the opposing energy or force of what makes good, good. Vice versa.
Naturally ‘evil’ and ‘good’ are just points of view, respectfully, and essentially borderlines on relativity.
Great question though. This show has a lot of philosophical ideologies behind it. No wonder its a college course.
Its a noodle scratcher.
That scene at the start between Jacob and ‘Anti-Jacob’ – so crucial. It must surely set the tone for the final season but I’m not sure how we should read into it. People have argued that Jacob is for free will, but I think he sounds more like advocating ‘whatever happens happens’. And it is AJ who sounds more concerned with preserving the island….
Here’s the transcript:
J : Are you here because of the ship?
AJ: I am. How did they find the island?
J : You’ll have to ask them when they get here.
AJ: I don’t have to ask. You brought them here. You’re trying to prove me wrong, aren’t you?
J : You are wrong.
AJ: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corupt. And it always ends the same.
J : If it only ends once, anything that happens before that is just progress.
AJ: Have you any idea how badly I want to kill you?
J : Yes.
AJ: One of these days, sooner or later, I’m going to find a loophole my friend.
J : Well when you do I’ll be right here.
AJ: Always nice talking to you Jacob.
J : Nice talking to you too.
I promise to go back and read all the amazing posts..
For now I’d like to comment on the Charlie’s Angelesque shoot out. I laughed out loud seeing Juliet and Kate guns blazing.
Are those Dharma Vans bullet proof? Or the DI guys are such bad shots they can’t hit a big blue vehicle?
We’ve entered Matrix 2 territory.
Matrix 1 was great, but the second was so bad it nearly killed everything that came before it, unless you willfully forget anything ever happened after Neo beat Agent Smith in Matrix 1. I can do that, and still enjoy Matrix 1.
So what happened in Lost 5.16?
On the plus side, it was nice seeing Rose and Bernard. It was nice visiting Black Rock era.
But moving on to the other side, we meet Jacob at last. He’s not a mysterious ghost or undead person, he’s not Jack, or Locke, or Ben or Walt or Aaron, or even Vincent–he’s the guy that was second choice when they cast Paulo. Another pretty male model with no depth. And it’s o-so clever that he’s met the losties in the past isn’t it? Not really, that was clever the first time, but it really got tedious watching these visits from the
omniscient Jacob. All right, we get it–he’s been behind the scenes all along and has a plan for child Kate & almost dead Locke. Ok. Next.
Jacob was a dissapointment. They picked the worst answer to “who’s Jacob”.
And speaking of almost dead Locke. Now we know he’s truly dead, and we have an imposter posing as Locke. Worst Answer possible.
Locke’s mission to kill Jacob? Was it to release him? to actually help him? To expose Ben’s fraud? Was it something interesting like that? No, it was to murder jacob for reasons unknown to us. Worst Answer Possible.
What about this bomb plot? Will it be averted? Will they really set off a NUKE on the island? But wont that permanently kill all the Dharma non-time-travelers? And Jack, is it really fair to wipe out other people’s time lines so that you can land in LA in 2004? What on earth is possibly appealing to this idea that the writers really want to go there? Well, they manage to blow the bomb and get the cliche’d white screen of death. Worst Possible Result.
So, here we are, left with these Urgent Questions: Will the losties die in the blast or be transported to 2004? to 2007? Will SunJin ever be reunited? Is the future changed or is WHH true? I’ll tell you what’s true: WCC — Whoever Cares, Cares.
Another Plus side: The wait to 2010 wont be filled with unbearable antici…pation!
I understand Ryan’s analysis and frustrations…..but I do not share them in the least. As a follow up, I had thought more about the finally and they did it to us once again. I am not talking about the non-ending ending, I am talking about giving us so much information, so many great reveals that I cannot help but think that some of the most vital information to the series going forward was slipped in virtually unnoticed.
I am on board thinking that Juliet sacrificed herself and will be dead
The Incident moves the losties back to 2007.
The peices are set for the War, and perhaps Widmore was the good guy all along and Ben was unknowingly taking orders from “Esau”
My theory is that during a struggle during the time of the Black Rock “Esau” was imprisoned at the Swan site, the Incident released him in the form of the Smoke Monster. Thus Jacob must force another confrontation and set in motion the arrival of the losties
BIG line that no one is talking about is the idea of the Candidate. Candidate for what??
Ironic that two years running the answer to “What’s in the Box” was Locke
Thats all I can think of.
Okay, I think I am getting it. Here is my theory:
When we see Dark Locke tell Richard to tell Regular Locke to patch up his leg and tell him to bring everyone back, and he has to die, this IS his plan for the loophole. He wanted all the Losties on the Island, and needed him to die. So this planted in Locke’s head that he had to complete the mission, but also had to die. Once dead, Dark Locke could use him to get to Ben (the REAL current LEADER) and kill Jacob. Chances are, Locke was never worthy, as Richard thought, it was just the Darkness making him think he was.
Now, I guarantee Jacob isn’t dead, it is all a Biblical reference to Jesus, here is how:
Many will blame Locke for killing Jacob (Jesus), but it wasn’t so much him. Here is Luke 22:1-6
1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.
Just like Satan entered Judas when he caused Jesus’ death, so was it that the Darkness entered Locke and caused Jacob’s.
And just as Satan thought that the loophole to stopping God was killing Jesus, the Darkness thinks this killed Jacob, but i guarantee he will rise, just as Jesus did.
Season 6 will be ALL the Losties in 2007 trying to help Richard/Jacob stop the Darkness, who will still be played by Terry O-Quinn. What a season it will be!
Well said, Matt! The scenario you laid out seems most logical, or perhaps it’s just the way I’d like to see it pan out. Either way, though, I’m not willing yet to guarantee anything with Lost, including that Jacob will rise again. I do think it’s likely and that the next thing to consider is *when* will he rise. Will it be 3 days? 3 Years? 3 Decades? We’ve already gotten a lot of mention of “three” and the tie to Jesus’ resurrection now seems apparent.
I’m on the fence about this episode. I was mainly spoiler free, other than what i heard on “the forward cabin” so the flashbacks with Jacob were not a surprise to me, but i’m glad to see they really weren’t anything to spoil. I did think the writing was very well done in this episode. I’m aggravated that they “Thudded” in a place that leaves us hanging but that’s Lost season 1 at it’s best!
I’m sure i’ll post again but i was reading the Lostpedia description of Jacob’s history and i noticed something very interesting. It says that Jacob had gone outside the statue and caught and ate a “red Herring”. Does anything have any thoughts on why a red herring, given it’s literary inflection?
Also, i do like the biblical allegory being shown here with Jacob, his brother or co-inhabitatnt (Man #2) and Benjamin.
Can’t wait for the podcast!
When watching the closed captioning, Richard is called Ricardus, which is a Latin form. I think he predates the Black Rock, although him making a Black Rock in the bottle probably suggests he is from that time period, I dunno…
DId anti-Locke not really know where Jacob lived, or was it a ruse to get Ben and Co. there?
I think Juliet had a change of heart and mind about Sawyer in the end. The way they looked at each other before she fell, kind of makes me think that she realized that he really did love her, I dunno. Does she set the bomb off to really try to reset things, perhaps giving them a second chance, else why explode it?
I like the idea that next season we will see the Losties and the good side fighting the dark islanders…
Can’t wait to hear the podcast!!!
That was a horrible episode. Easily the most disappointing LOST episode I have ever seen. They seemed to drag the double episode without giving us what we really want. I was particularly upset because this season had been so consistent till this point. It was just riddled with problems
1/ Kate and Juliet change their minds in the most erratic and unconvincing manner. Their roles in this episode were unnecessary and ate into 1/3 of this finale
2/ We wait the whole episode for Jack to detonate the bomb. It falls an immeasurable height but.. instead of detonating then, we lose another 5 mins for Juliet to fall down and throw a rock at it.. sigh
3/ Jacob is happy to let Ben kill him… in fact he provokes him with “what about you?”
4/ More favorite losties die. The only way this series can end in a satisfying way now, is if they end up changing the past.
Mindstage:
I totally agree that Sayid just stopped the bomb, he thought Jack’s idea was wrong and only tricked him into thinking he would succeed.
that’s it… ? That was a whole season of build up … for THAT?
Also, Sayid does die. Remember, the dead guy, we thought was Horace in the Dharma jumpsuit with the Horace name tag? Yeah, that’s Sayid.
Haven’t read many of the comments, so this is likely already posted.
Did Juliette just invent the button?
@Matt from Ohio:
I’m having a brain freeze. I can only remember finding Ben’s father. The Horace thing sounds familiar but I can’t place when it happened. Which episode was that?
@target242:
Yes, I think you’re right that Anti-Jacob knew where Jacob was. Pretending he didn’t know was the only way to get all the people there. Speaking of, remember when Anti-Jacob said something along the lines of “you’ll need rest for what I have planned for you when we see Jacob” or something like that when they’re at the Losties’ original camp? That’s very ominous knowing what we know now …
Anybody know what Richard’s real name means?
Poor Locke conned once again, his life story.
Ryan, I really liked your theory re: the loophole and the leader being Ben and only the leader can kill Jacob.
Anybody else think the ending reminded them of “field of dreams” when Ray gets angry that Terrance Mann gets to to the cornfield and he says “all this time I did everything you asked and I never said “What’s in it for me? Now I want to know “What’s in it for me?’. For once Ben got manipulated instead of the other way around.
Very disappointed in this clunky season finale. Game changer? Really? We knew all along it’s two people fighting over control of the Island. So it’s two alien shape-shifters and not Ben and Widmore, but that’s hardly a game changer.
I think the real “game changer” will be in the opening of next season. I think the bomb has reset things, but not all the way back. The O6 might find themselves back on crash day with the knowledge of future events. But more likely they will have erased the last 3 years, because that wasn’t supposed to have happened anyway.
As for Jacob and Anti-Jacob, they have to be aliens or time travellers, because the producers have said since the beginning that the answer to everything will be science fiction and not supernatural. Therefore, they can’t be angels, or Egyptian gods, or God & the Devil.
They talked very modern English in the opening scene, so that made me think they must be future time travellers, but something about their conversation sounded like they weren’t human, and little more than disappointed by what they were observing in the human race.
Locke is really dead? Then he died a pathetic patsy and never achieved his redemption. He was used by Anti-Jacob just like his dad used him. How sad.
I am still confused about the body possession by AJ. Apparently, the person needs to be dead, but he obviously doesn’t need the actual body, since Locke’s body is in the metal case. I guess we knew this, because we know Alex’s body is buried and yet he managed to appear as her. But the body needs to be on the Island, or else why go through all that trouble of getting it there?
I also find it confusing as to why the Ajira people didn’t freak out more when they saw Locke walking around alive. They must have put his body in the case, because he was in a coffin in the cargo hold. When Ben asked them what was in the case, at that point they must have known it was Locke.
Jacob wanted the body shown to the others, to stop AJ, but apparently he was too late. But why didn’t Jacob just have Elena kill fake Locke? On the other hand, why not stop the coffin from getting on the plane? Or why not stop John Locke from killing himself to begin with? I’m sure if he appeared to Locke he could have talked him out of it.
So Jacob must have wanted Locke back on the Island for some reason. Maybe the Ajira people were bringing him to the temple to be resurrected. Maybe that’s still a possibility.
I think Locke is still the key to breaking the cycle. Wouldn’t it be funny if the last scene of the series is Jack and Locke taking the places of Jacob and Anti-Jacob?
I’m starting to think that Jacob and the man in black are not God and Satan as some have suggested, but rather both are subservient to God. They are archangels – perhaps Michael and the fallen archangel Satan. The archangels are part of numerous religious traditions.
At one point there was a war in heaven between the archangels loyal to God and those loyal to Satan. You can look up that history on many religious sites. Perhaps what is happening on the island is just a continuation of that war to see who will have dominance over man. Both have the ability to assume human form, most likely in the bodies of dead humans. The two bodies we saw at the beginning were just the forms they were using at that time.
The war has been going on for eternity. At some point, after the Black Rock’s arrival, Jacob, with the help of people from the Black Rock (Richard and company) was able to entrap the Man in Black in the cabin. For a period of time, the good side had won. Somehow, however, the Man in Black escaped and the war was back on. This is why Jacob brought all of the 815ers to the island, to use them in the next battle. The Man in Black moves from bodies to bodies working his scheme – sometimes he’s the smoke monster (probably closer to his ethereal form), he’s Christian, Claire, maybe Charlie, Libby and others. This time the Man in Black wins the battle as we saw last night.
I suspect that Jacob will re-appear next year in the body of someone who has recently died. Jacob is not dead. The war for humanity’s soul will continue in Season 6 which may be the ultimate battle.
I like using “Dark Locke” to differentiate one Locke from the other.
I’d like to offer “Locke-in-the-Box” for the dead, non-Dark Locke.
Makes me smile every time I say it.
on further examination, That prolly was Horace and not Sayid. He had the map to the cabin in his pocket.
My bad.
Hmmm, thoughts :
Time hasn’t been reset. Whatever Happened Happened. It’s a rule set in stone. I think the writers were telling us this by underlining Dead Is Dead in this episode.
I agree with others that think Jacob foresaw his own death. And while Anti-Jacob formed his convoluted plan, so did Jacob. Jacob brought Ilana and the others here to do something. Maybe Hurley’s guitar case is important for this. But most telling is that Jacob has already met a number of the Losties and touched them. Did anyone else here see Wrath of Khan? Could Jacob have hidden parts of himself in all of these people only to have himself reconstituted later?
I’m pretty bent out of shape by not seeing Desmond again. So now his appearances this season were utterly pointless. Sure, maybe next season will make his activities valuable, but I think that’s very lame writing.
@Carol:
Nice comparison to “Field of Dreams!” It did kinda feel like that, didn’t it? Maybe if Ben hadn’t killed Jacob, he would have been able to go play catch with his father 😉
@JohnFisher
I like the archangels idea. I don’t know that it will ever completely be “this person equals this and that person equals that” but I think that all the stuff being discussed, from God/Devil to archangels to time-traveling aliens are possible in what has been laid out for us. I tend to lean away from the idea that Charlie and Libby and those visiting Hurley are actually Anti-Jacob. I do think it’s likely that Christian and maybe even Claire (last we saw her) are Anti-Jacob but for some reason, what Jacob said to Hurley about being blessed to be visited by his friends makes me think that it is unlikely that Anti-Jacob would be responsible. Although, it’s still possible that Anti-Jacob was taking the form of Jacob in those flashbacks, as HAM in MO originally said.
*John Fischer … sorry about the name misspelling! I make typos all the time but I hate to do it with someone’s name.
Realistically, they will never go back to reliving the original crash, no way they can get the whole cast back for next season. Next season – 2007 everybody vs. the island.
I heard Damon and Carlton saying they have lots of great surprises for comic-con. Wish I could go. Anybody here planning to go?
So, if Jacob’s nemesis is Dark Locke, is he also Christian Sheppard? I think he is.
Who helped the nemesis excape from the cabin by cutting a path in the ash? Fire is obviously the only permanent means of destruction on the Island.
Juliette is not necessarily dead — she too can be catapulted to 2007. But being at the bottom of the Swan’s shaft — sealed in concrete — would that be a good place to be? But then again eletro-magnetism is a wacky thing, capable of just about anything.
We will find that Ben is not nearly as ignorant and going along for the ride as he’s playing.
Pierre Chang severely injured his arm or lost it in the incident. What will be the fate of the remaining Dharma folks in 1977? Is that book closed?
What brought the statue down?
Let’s hear it once again for Rose, Bernard and Vincent. Come on folks, show a little love.
@ Sam…I had the same thought about Jacob’s statment to Ben; “What about you?” He wasn’t even remotely trying to keep Ben from killing him. In fact, it seemed as if he was doing exactly the opposite. It appeared as if he were deliberately taunting Ben. So why would he do that?
Jesus attitude towards Pilate, Herod would have been considered the same way. It is just that Jacob, like Jesus wants you to CHOOSE your own destiny and make the right choice. Plus, once again, Jacob will rise and he knew that.