I vaguely remember an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation where they encounter an entity that can manifest the crew’s thoughts, but the entity turns out to be the equivalent of a 4 year old kid. It’s just f*ing with them. I think that is the nature of the island.

it wants the people to come back because it wants to keep playing, like Elmira, squeezing and loving and cuddling her puppy to death.

but it can’t ultimately be that, right? No dark finales on network TV. Unless they go for it and pull a Twin Peaks and leave us in the proverbial Black Lodge forever with our dopplegangers hopelessly waiting for a happy ending.

I’ll be hoping for that….

He sent Ryan and his “10 best” to raid the beach camp with orders to “kill anyone stupid enough to get in the way.” He gave the order to execute Jin following the capture of the 3 shooters. (It’s interesting to ponder why he selected Jin. Did he know he couldn’t select Sayid because he still had to return to 1977 so that whatever happened would happen?)
_Wrong. The order was to shoot in the sand! Tom said it! And the “kill anybody…” is just an emphase toward his daughter better not acting against his orders.

He also killed Keamy knowing full well it would trip the dead man’s trigger killing anyone on the freighter. Jin made it off somehow, but not Michael and other non-essential personnel.
_Waw he killed the guy who killed his daughter… yeah he sure is an evil monster! And he considered the people on the boat being a nuisance to the Island.

So? Any comment?

This could also be why it “appears” that Richard Alpert is able to leave the island before the purge and acquisition of the submarine. While it is after the purge on the island, they are taking the sub back in time to see baby Lock, young Lock, etc.

OK, now I’m on a roll because if this is the case, then Ben could have also gone back in time and driven the car that hit Lock’s mother and almost killed Lock. Oh my head hurts.

He sent Ryan and his “10 best” to raid the beach camp with orders to “kill anyone stupid enough to get in the way.” He gave the order to execute Jin following the capture of the 3 shooters. (It’s interesting to ponder why he selected Jin. Did he know he couldn’t select Sayid because he still had to return to 1977 so that whatever happened would happen?)

He also killed Keamy knowing full well it would trip the dead man’s trigger killing anyone on the freighter. Jin made it off somehow, but not Michael and other non-essential personnel.

Ok another point:
_Is John the smoke monster/dead. The writers are using the same technique as Josh Weadon’s Buffy. In the show, Giles was last shown nearly beheaded then on the next episodes we see him not touching anything or anyone… which is what the big bad does: use dead people to appear but can’t touch anything.
So the smoke monster appears only when John is not there… leading use to belive he might be it. But the trueth is not the case. Otherwise why would the smoke monster/Alex tells him not to kill John? If is already dead?

what he was meant to be judge for:
_The death of Alex due to him not wanting to leave the Island.
_Trying to kill Lock due to him not wanting to leave his leader role on the Island.
_The capture of Jack, Kate and Sawyer due to him not wanting to die and not being a leader on the Island.

So the real reason he wants to be judged is: If the Island has saved me is for me to be a leader. Was I right to let my daughter (which I should maybe have killed) die or was I right to keep my role as a leader.
And the answer is: you were right, you do well for the Island BUT John is the leader now and you must help him.

Love your podcast, hope you find mind my 2cents interesting. Loved to be replied to. (and sorry for the mistakes, I am french as Ceasar (who is not dead! Since when a bullet is enough! ask Mikhail, Charlie hanged, Rose heart stop…and so many others))
Yann

Perhaps Ben is not integral to Ilana’s assignment. Maybe what’s in the box will lock the island in place/make it visible. Then Widmore can bring his forces to bear when he’s ready.

We haven’t seen the true Ilana yet so who knows the extent of her awareness of island-related matters.

As said above, Mr. Eko refused to repent which distinguished his fate from Ben’s.

I see Ben’s repeated beatings as Fate trying to send him a message. Ben continues to try to change the outcome of events (Widmore warns him to accept the inevitable) and this is Fate’s way of trying to beat him into submission. But Ben will not yield, hopefully to forge a better future than the unnamed one at the termination of this current loop. Thus making him “good” in his own mind.

@Christy. Let’s connect the dots. Widmore Industries have taken over Hanso and by extension the DI. Ms. Hawking is close to Brother Campbell at Desmond’s monastery, linked to Widmore by the exclusive vinatages they provide him, but perhaps serving as a religious arm to his organization, much in the same way that the princes of Europe tried to control and exploit the Vatican in their global game of risk. Ms. Hawking is currently positioned at similar church which is also a DI station.

Widmore and Hawking appear to be working together, and perhaps always have been since they once seemed to jointly rule the island. In this case, it wouldn’t be much of a stretch for Widmore to know about 316, that it would be in the right place at the right time with the proper cargo, and for him to get his team on board as well.

A quick question. If Smokey is indeed the Great Judge then I wonder what the original pilot of 815 did? Wasn’t he sucked up by the monster on the pilot?

Also loved the reminder that this is a serial.

counting down until Wednesday!

Ben’s character gets some development, it weakens his ominous nature a bit and makes him more human. He is struggling to get back in control and, even though he’s a villain, it’s sad to see him out of sorts.

I’ve been hearing a lot of dismay with Ben’s development. Ben is such a good villain, that he works as being totally evil (which usually comes off as caricature). Making him more human is disorienting to him and us, in the long run I think it will be worth it for the story.

I think Ben was forgiven because he was only judged for what he feels that he did was wrong. All his other crimes were not really crimes in his mind, and therefore he was not judged for them. It was only his guilt for what happened to Alex that made it a ‘crime’, and it was his total acceptance of responsibility (his submission) that absolved him. I don’t recall Eko being as humble in the face of judgment.

Random Prediction: Hurley is secretly in Dharma 2.0

Ideas/Possibilities
1- Ben choosing not to kill Rousseau and/or her baby… could that have caused no more babies to be born onto the island. Perhaps some foreign virus (considering dharma people woulda been given injections upon initiation)

2- Now that time-loop is a given on this show, how possible could it be that Desmond’s child charlie of 2007 is Charlie Pace, the adult charlie that crashed onto the island. It would require baby charlie to have travel back in time and be seperated from his parents.

3- The fact the flame didnt go out when Alex was conjured seems quite significant… pushing the point that Alex and Smokie were two different entities

4- The show is starting to imply a stronger connection between smokey and Locke… they’re never in the same shot. I dont know what to make of this, but certainly Locke never was, or never will be, smokey.

Good show, only started listening this season though. Keep it up.

On another note – never having transported a coffin myself, could the big metal box hold a coffin? I didn’t see any writing on the side (like ‘Ann Arbor’ or ‘Science Dept’ or ‘Explosive’), though I wonder if there’s something like that inside… but we haven’t seen Locke’s coffin yet either. And, Cesar was told that Ben killed Locke, but no one questioned or proved it as of yet. Ideas?

And like so many other people have commented, Dharma built that house (where Ben ends up living) right over that chamber?

I have kind of a far out theory about Charles Widmore. It would also help explain the time issues with his statement of looking for the Island for almost 20 years.
We know he had another life off the Island. How long had he been traveling off Island? He was banished after The Purge, which according to Lostpedia was in 1992. The actress who plays Penny was born in 1974. We assume Charles is Penny’s biological father. That is almost 20 years of having a family off the Island! We don’t know for sure how he, Ben, Richard, Tom, etc., traveled off the Island. Some say by sub or by whatever vessel the ’54 soldiers used to get Jughead to the Island. And I guess it is feasible there was an “Others sub” in addition to the DHARMA sub (The Others wouldn’t have taken over the DHARMA sub until after The Purge). I can buy that. But I think there is another way. A faster way. A secret way. One we haven’t seen yet. It could even be the Magic Box!? Maybe however the traveling off Island works has nothing to do with the traveler knowing where the Island is physically.
What if Widmore started trying to find the Island years before he was banished? Like in the 70’s. DHARMA time. Widmore is a very successful business man. Did spending so much time in the “real world” cause him to become greedy and he decided to use the Island for financial gain? It wouldn’t surprise me. According to Lostpedia, Widmore Industries is connected to Hanso Foundation, which is connected to DHARMA.

What did DHARMA know about the Island before they arrived there? It seems like they knew quite a bit. Dharmaville built over the Smokey Chamber. The “exotic matter”. They knew about Smokey if they built the sonic fence. Where did they get all this knowledge about the Island?

Anyone see any major issues/inconsistencies with this?

I like what ZoneCity said about Widmore marrying into the Hanso family!

cat- I really enjoy your great comments.

I like what someone else posted about Ilana and her big metal box coming to start the “War” Widmore was referring to. Great thought!

A couple people have mentioned Locke and the shoes. Does he know they are Christian’s shoes? He seemed to be taking great care with them.

Toga – I have also been wondering about the comi-con video and ‘reconstituting” DHARMA. There has to be something to that and the recruiting stuff that was going on on-line.

Love your podcasts Ryan and Jen!

Thanks Ryan&Jen for making the Lost Experience® even more exciting!

She pondered a riddle to Frank, Just like Desmond did to Locke, and Kelvin to Desmond. Kelvin was the last Dharman left on the island.

We also saw at comic-con that Daniel Faraday was making a video with Peirre Chang for our present. Possibly for Dharma HQ in Ana Arbor.

Perhaps Dharma sent some people and big metal case filled with fancy Dharma tech to help those trapped in 1977?

Also I think the guitar case Hurley brought on Ajira 316 is filled with snack cakes, thats what i would bring. =]

I guess what we perceive ourelves to be doing is not always exactly what we’re doing (or where or when we perceive ourselves to be?). Just kidding, dude.

@Pemstar. You can see the silhouette of such a game, but they really need more explicit dramatization to drive this home. Maybe that will come through Ilana.

ps.
I Can’t wait to hear your show. It’s the best, most organized, and compelling of all the lost podcasts. You two are great! Thank you so much for your hard work!

Let’s look at some of the moves in this chess game.

Ben’s critical moves:

Ben leaves the island and has Sayid help him to kill some of Widmore’s
(pieces). [weakens Widmore's defense]

Ben kills Locke [CHECK!]

Ben kills Keamy’s mercenaries [CHECK!]

Ben tried to “strengthen” Walt to use, but didn’t work. [weakens Ben's defense]

Ben causes “the purge” [weakens widmore's defense]

Widmore’s critical moves:

Widmore used Desmond’s love for Penny to get him to “the swan” to turn the key to bring down 815. [weakens Ben's defense]

Helps Locke to get back to the island [CHECK!]

Widmore’s people capturing Sayid and sending him back in time to kill Ben
as a kid [CHECK!]

Keamy killing Alex [CHECK!]

Widmore funds DHARMA building weapons to battle Ben [weakens Ben's defense] (what do you think he was doing “off the island”?)

Imploding of the Swan gave both players a move to “expose the island” so

Widmore could send Keamy but also brought penny to save the O6′rs

Jughead (move to be played soon)

Any other moves I have forgotten?

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

It has been a couple weeks< i just did not have the time to write as I was on the road for two weeks. Kept up with your podcasts though. Fun stuff as always.

A belated Happy Anniversary!

Although I personally do not agree with James, I have friends who feel the same way about the show. It somehow feels unsatisfying to them, not enough answers and confusing. I will make sure that they watch the show though .

There has been much said above about this episode, so I do not have much to add. I love Locke and Ben, together with Sawyer they are my fav characters. This episode though felt very different, somehow unsatisfying. I am not sure if that was intended. John seems especially weird but then again coming back from the dead probably gives you the right to be this weird. I on the other hand for some reason do not believe that John is actually alive, at least not in the way we are. It seems that the island for some reason, somehow lets people appear alive. The list includes Yemi, Christian, Horace and possible others. In the past we (the fans) have thought that these people are connected somehow with Smokey, especially the former two. Well, John knew where Smokey was because he is Smokey, because he is dead. He insinuated that he know more about the island than Ben. The title says it as well “Dead is dead”. Ben was also in disbelief when he talked to Sun about John. Although he is not to always be believed, it seemed genuine to me.

Different interesting points:
- Did I hear it right, Ethan was volunteering to kill Rousseau? He was so young and vicious!
- Where did Locke go when Ben went into his dungeon?
- We actually saw Keammy shoot Alex in this episode.
- Alex looks really good. There was a moment there when I thought that she was going to turn into a monster or something, such a sinister look
- What’s up with Ilana and is that her crew? Did they know each other before they got on the plane? Is this another Widmore posse?
- I loved that look that John had when just before Ben shot Ceasar.
- Mean and tricky Ben playing Ceasar, a classic.
- The time line seems a little confusing to me, it somehow does not add up. It is all a little off and I believe that it is not an accident.
- Locke was the first to actually stare into Smokey back in S1 (or was it S2?). He was awed and quite taken by the experience. Was that because Smokey is actually him? (It does make my head hurt).
- Ben seemed to know Christian.

You guys rock as always….

Ilias

You are SO RIGHT! And, so much more eloquent about it than I. I 100% agree with your every word. Thank you for saying EXACTLY what I’ve been thinking!

=============================
MRPEMSTAR Says:
April 9th, 2009 at 10:13 am

“The hieroglyph shows Smokey emerging from water, and it was water that was used to summon the monster.”
=============================

No, I think Smokie is emerging from the holy stone (get it, holy stone = stone full of holes) in the hieroglyph.

Other things I think I see in the hieroglyph are:
A wheel just above the holy stone thingy.
An eye (Eye of Horace, perhaps) just above the wheel.
In the lower center I see a snake, or perhaps that represents water.
Above the snake/water I see another eye.
On the lower right, I see a path leading to a building.
On the upper right I see a key.

Any other thoughts on the hieroglyph? Thanks.

Also, I don’t think Penny told Ben that Widmore was not her father… she was trying to tell him that she and her father have no relationship… that they are estranged.

but with 316, i felt cheated immediately. they intentionally skipped crucial parts to get the 06 back to the island, which now they have to go back and fill in the blanks. the only thing is we’ve had so much time to theorize what happened in those skipped moments, that they become anti-climactic.

what really happened in this past episode? the only interesting thing was Illana and Co. becoming “active” as Ryan put it. i know the writers have an end date and everything now but it shouldn’t feel obvious that they’re just filling out a answer sheet checklist:

show ben take alex: check
show widmore get banished: check
show under temple: check

i do have high expectations for the finale, but these episodes post-break have been pretty dry.

J=Jack, Juliet, Jin, John, James, Sayid Jaraah
A=Aaron, Alex, Kate Austin, Richard Alpert
C=Charles Widmore, Christian, Claire, Charlie (little and big) Clementine,
O= Others
B=Ben, Bernard

@Carol

Hoth is also a norse god. I got this quote from dictionary.com.

“(Norse mythology) a blind god; misled by Loki, he kills his brother Balder by throwing a shaft of mistletoe.”

Is James the Ben to R & J’s Widmore and Ellie?

@HAM in MO’s question: Whad D.I. member lived in Ben’s house before the purge? Had not thought of that, but seems like a very good question. My guess would be Dr. Chang/Halliwax/Candle, as we’ve seen he’s got some knowledge about the island and the stations.

Anyway, I’ll be expecting to listen to the next podcast, thanks Ryan and Jen for your great effort and most of all, interesting ideas.

Lock took off Christian Shepard’s dress shoes off before taking the outrigger with Ben to the main island. It’s kind of odd that he is still wearing the shoes while hiking through the jungle.

I liked Smokey’s little grate/doggie door. Convient.

Whad D.I. member lived in Ben’s house before the purge?

Ben takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin’. Ben is one of my fav characters and even though he has done very evil things in the past, I believe that his redemption time has come at last. He will redeem himself by helping John help the island/Jacob and fight off Ilana and crew.

Lapidus needs to get with the program. Why would he go back to the plane to try and radio someone, when he KNOWS that no one would find the island anyway.

We GET IT. You don’t like this season. Neither of us have said this is our favorite episode of the season yet. We haven’t said anything at all. It was far from my favorite, quite frankly.

If you’re not into the show, that’s awesome. “Chuck” is really good. I hear “Fringe” is getting interesting. But we like “Lost”. We like talking about it. We like discussing the things about it that made us think. Maybe let us enjoy it a little, if you don’t.

To judge singular episodes of the serial “LOST” is like judging a single chapter of a novel. This judgment is flawed and incomplete… So I want to ask all of these quick to judge fans to step back and finish the entire novel before judging a single chapter! We all enjoy this show because of the deep mythology and the character development. We all enjoy the teases from the writers and each of us enjoys theorizing and guessing about the possible outcomes. But those viewers who wish to throw their love it hate it, incomplete opinions around might want to wait until the show is done and the DVDs are released…

Ryan and Jen – I enjoy your podcast and I appreciate your hard work and open mind towards the ups and downs that the writers and producers take us through. After all this show would not be so enjoyable if all of its’ faithful viewers didn’t experience the full range of human emotions.

P.S. Did anyone notice that Desmond doesn’t appear to be shot when he falls to the ground. It appears that the bullet knocked him off his feet but didn’t break his skin!

@Jennifer: I had forgotten that Mr. Friendly had a “love interest” off the island! But I don’t think Ben ever left the Island and I wonder if the “Leader” is not supposed to leave..so we saw Richard and Ethan and Mr. Friendly…but did Ben ever leave until now? It is very possible I am forgetting that since there is so much to remember!

@Mike From Washington DC Says: “@Connie in Alaska
My guess is that Ben would apologize to Desmond for shooting him…right?” Mike- I think his apology is for something far worse than a non fatal gunshot wound. I mean this is the guy who kills people in cold blood like Ceasar- he ain’t sayin’ sorry for “almost killing” someone…its something worse.

@Ryan no. 3: I had forgotten he told Alex to meet him at the temple…you are right- she was waiting right where she was supposed to be.

@Rich in Cleveland: You said
“Here’s my rough approximation of the dates:
Incident 79-80
Purge 84
Rousseau 88
Exile 90″

But Widmore’s exile has to be more than 2 years after Rousseau because Baby Alex is big girl Alex when he is sent away (on the swing she looks like 5 ish?) and so that is even less time- 1993 to 815 crash in 2003 is only 10 years. (OK I later see John cleared this up..)

@ everyone who keeps wondering why Widmore can’t get back after going back and forth so many times- it seems obvious that they “moved” the Island so he can’t find it. Just like they moved it at the end of season 4 to loose Widmore.

@Alex in MD – I agree with you that I think Ilana may be with DI. Her password puzzle was similar to “what did one snowman say to the other?” and that was a DI thing created for the Swan Station to make sure they knew that the new guy who showed up with with the Dharma Initiative. I agree with you- they could be back for their vengeance…or to reclaim the Island.

Ok- I read all the comments…my favorite? “The Odd Couple” by MRPEMSTAR Thanks for the laugh! (great show BTW…)

“I keep bringing up real people reactions not being written into the script. No one is happy or freaked out to see anyone after all they go through. No one has a burst of confused questioning that would happen when you crashland on a magic island twice, time travel, or return from the dead… just a slightly surprised look a handshake and a hello. sick of it.
“Hi mr. Locke… how’s my dad?” I miss normal people talking. Hurley comes the closest but he’s written way too goofy at times. We should still be getting normal people reacting to extraordinary events.” -Amen. Disconcerting and disconnecting to those of us needing some help with suspension of belief. Don’t get me wrong, I love this damn show, and yes, John Locke is God.

A question I will throw out there – If LOST is not about time travel, as Darleton claim, then what IS the role of time travel in the fabric of the narrative?? I agree with a previous post that time travel, and the way it has been handled (see above) has fuzzied the focus of the show, while not adding to it in any way I can see. If TT is a ‘mechanism’ only, then what are we to surmise about the purpose of employing it??

A good many posts here concern the time line, and possible errors on the part of the writers. While this is food for thought… why bother? So much excellent writing has occurred that I am truly confounded by this TT issue. And if we do follow the analogy of a GPS zoomed in or out, then lets zoom out and see what time travel does. Or doesn’t.

Then zoom in, and puzzle the egyptian toilet for calling ol’ smokey??

Zoom in and puzzle Jacko’s grandad giving him Daddy’s (CS) shoes, which Ben insists be placed on Locke’s (God’s) corpse, which we then get to see prominently featured this week being taken on and off. Some shoes. Important? Certainly more than Rose and Bernard, given the comparative airtime.

March on Lostites. I cannot help but believe it’s worth it, and more fun than anything on TV now or then.

The show still always keeps my interest — love the scenes between spiritually-minded Locke and snarky, know-it-all, bluffing Ben — and also love the scenes with Kate and Sawyer — their onscreen chemistry is undeniable — seems that all the Desmond-centric episodes are the ones that further the story the most — looking forward to the next one — or maybe now it will all be about Locke and Jacob and ??

It is fun watching things unfold and seeing the story and characters through to their conclusions — we will all miss this show like crazy when it’s done!!!

same Richard.

Theory #1: The only thing I can think of is that the island has always been out of sync with time (right now it appears to be about 18 hours or so) out of sync with the rest of the world, so maybe “the incident” causes this time gap to be much greater, meaning on-island it is 1992, but off-island maybe it is only 1984 (giving Widmore the 20 years he claims to have been looking for the island.

Theory #2: Maybe Widmore’s mind jumped back in time when he was taken off-island much like Desmond’s in “The Constant” and he jumped to a time when he was off-island his constant “Elouise” held him back in the 1980′s because that was his purpose. I am leaning toward Ellie being Charles’ on-island wife with hes son Daniel. She leaves the island and takes Daniel with her upon finding out Charles was having an off-island relationship (and another child). This is why Charles cannot just ask for her help in getting back to the island, she wants nothing to do with him.

As an avid fan of the podcast, I am aware of two salient facts (among others):

You are crazy about the Ben character.
You are not so crazy about the Kate character.

More or less. And other nuances as well. As a long time listener, I recall you loved the Sun/Jin episodes of years past much more than I did. You also had issues with Locke’s characterizaton when he became the passive number pusher of Season 2.

Therefore, it is not surprising that you would hail this episode as the greatest episode of Season Five. We return to Wise Locke, and have a wealth of Ben story to gnash our teeth on. And a bunch of mythology to boot.

So my comment is this: if this is the best episode, what does that say about Season 5 thus far? Because I have to agree with the precious few comments on this blog that are calling out Lost on it’s curious season.

Ryan, you mentioned that it is a “puzzle” to track where the canoes are. That says it all. Because I was thinking the same thing. But when you say your head is hurting as you reconcile where Dead Locke is with Time Skipping Lock, I wonder if you aren’t agreeing with me.

You just can’t say it.

Yes, you can all argue that the purge happened at this time, and the timeline is okay, and onward on to morning as we clean up the mess through speculation…

But I guess I am not thinking these writers are Gods or anything, and that their past mistakes make me more willing to see their show as “man made.”

I recall how Michael (remember him) devolved into the most frustrating cardboard character with one line: “Where’s Walt?” You know, he would waltz onto our television and just… be… looking… for Walt.

But as I watch last night, I was baffled by Ben’s whole “I killed you Locke because it was the only way…” monologue. You know, as Ben goes on to a completely expositional rant on why it had to happen, complete with all the caveats that the audience or message boards might bring up later.

I feel that a lot this season. Like they are telling things to us instead of it unfolding dramatically.

And find myself just not getting it. I really want to get it. You know, why dead people can exist. I do. And I am willing to watch to the bitter end to find out.

But now the writers are actually writing into the dialogue the paradoxes and frustrations that the audience is thinking. So Locke says lines like “If you knew it would work, then why are you surprised?

Because we are thinking the same thing. Just like that time travel conversation from last week.

Anyway, why is Ben so smart and cool, confessing he came to get judged, and then the very next moment, he is this ignorant, feeble guy, scared at Locke’s existence, reluctanct to face the monster and get judged. He’s just all over the place. And, as another poster mentioned, why now?

Some comments:

I have to agree the video playback in the monster smoke was distracting.
The whole character arc of Sun in this season is lame.
The Widmore/Rousseau/Alex baby thing is very rushed.

The jury is out on Season 5 so far, but I will tell you one thing. This season is making last season very, very lame. Faraday, Charlotte, the PILOT… I would expect a wee bit more sense from that whole Freighter direction by now.

Okay, but this season is about Dharma. I get it. But then how come we don’t get any meat from that world either?

There is something so rushed, unemotional, and contrived about everything from the moment time travel was introduced.

Someone back me up on this.

Let me consolidate what went wrong with Lost with an analogy.

You know how in a car navigation system, or in google maps, you can choose how much ZOOM you can have on your location. You can get the detail right there at your house, or you can pull back and see the neighborhood, or the city.

I think Lost used to be very much zoomed in in their narrative. We would get an emotional Desmond story. then maybe a Ben story. And each story would tell the greater story of Lost. The island, the mythology.

But now, Lost has zoomed out a bit. It has so many characters, timelines, civilizations, etc. that it is lightly touching each one in order to make its deadline of finishing the series.

It’s like we are going to a buffet and we can only have one bit of every meal. So instead of a steak dinner. You get one bite of steak, then one bite of chicken, then one carrot.

I’m hungry. I need a meal. I need an emotional story. I need something more.

The question has been raised a few times on here regarding who Penny’s mother might be. I have a thought……….

Has anyone else noticed the uncanny resemblance between Penny, and Claire’s mother, Mrs. Littleton? Possibly it’s just my imagination, but to me the two of them look an AWFUL lot alike. Could Mrs. Littleton also be Penny’s mom? It would definitely create another “LOST connection”.

Just my 2 penny’s worth

Secondly, Widmore wanted Alex killed. What’s not to believe that baby Alex’s death by Ben was a mistake? What if time was correcting itself from when she was a baby to when she was a teenager? Her death, like Charlie’s, was a sacrifice for the island.

Finally, this was one of the top five episodes of the season. Keep up the good work, Ryan and Jen.

-Z

PS: Does anybody else think that Locke somehow is in commune with the smoke monster? He’s coincidentally never there when the smoke monster appears in this episode.

Ha! Since the only characters with real world reactions are Hurley and Miles… I’ve been dying for one of them to mention the fact they’re in 77 the year that Star Wars came out. Hurley already referenced Back to the Future so I was guessing that he would be the one to go there. polar bears should be kept cool.

Ha! Since the only characters with real world reactions are Hurley and Miles… I’ve been dying for one of them to mention the fact they’re in 77 the year that Star Wars came out. Hurley already referenced Back to the Future so I was guessing that he would be the one to go there. polar bears should be kept cool.

Ben should have been judged just as harshly.

http://www.docarzt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/5x12_anubis_smokey-copy.jpg

There seems to be strong evidence that Smokey is Ammit, the devourer,
who may also be associated with Tawaret. The hieroglyph shows Smokey
emerging from water, and it was water that was used to summon the
monster.

“The most famous scene from the Duat is the Weighing of the Heart, in
which the dead were judged by Anubis, using a feather, representing
Ma’at, the goddess of Truth. Souls which were weighted down by sin
were eaten by Ammit. It is not known, however, whether a sinner’s
heart is heavier or lighter than the feather, only that to be accepted
into Aaru the heart must weigh the same.”
http://www.crystalinks.com/sirius.html

“In Egyptian mythology, Ammit…was the personification of divine
retribution for all the wrongs one had committed in life. She dwelt in
the Hall of Ma’at, who was the personification of the concept of
truth, balance, and order. In the Ancient Egyptian underworld (known
as Duat) hearts of the dead were weighed by Anubis against a feather
from Ma’at’s headdress. The hearts of those who were heavy with
wrongdoing failed the test were given to Ammit for her to devour.
Those whose souls were devoured were not permitted to enter Aaru,
having to be restless forever—effectively dying a second time. If the
heart was lighter than a feather then the soul was judged by the god
of the underworld, Osiris…

Her role is reflected in her name, which means Devourer or, more
accurately, and less euphemistically, Bone Eater, and her titles such
as Devourer of the dead, Devourer of millions (Am-heh in Egyptian),
Eater of hearts, and Greatness of Death. In some traditions, Ammit was
said to stand by a lake of fire, into which the unworthy hearts were
cast, rather than eating them…

Although Ammit is seen as a swallowing entity, its order is neutral
and strictly serves at the whim of the other deities to take souls
that have sinned against the gods and consign them into oblivion…

Some experts have linked Ammit with the goddess Taweret, who has a
similar physical appearance and, as a companion of Bes, also protected
others from evil. Other authors have noted that Ammit’s lioness
characteristics, and the lake of fire, may be pointers to a connection
with the goddess Sekhmet.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

“On November 13, Benjamin Linus removed himself from his place of
residence, via donkey wheel. That request came from Jacob.

Deep down, he knew Jacob was right, but he also knew that someday, he
would return to the Island.

With nowhere else to go, he appeared at the home of his personal bitch
and whipping boy, John Locke. Sometime earlier (or later… or
simultaneously, or in a flashback — who the hell can keep up),
Locke’s girlfriend Peggy Bundy had thrown him out, requesting that he
never return.

Can two slightly insane, Smokey-zombified leaders of a tribe of
Egyptian ancient weirdos share an apartment without killing each other
and making it look like suicide, and/or driving each other crazy?”

(In the background, we hear the theme song from “the odd couple”)

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

Why is it that all of the people who the island chooses as special are male? Ben, Locke, Charles, Christian, Walt. The only woman who gets any attention from the island is Rose, whose cancer is cured. That’s nice for her but it’s not like being chosen to be a leader. And how is Rose different from most of the other women? She’s too old to have children. Coincidence? I think not.

“What lies in the shadow of the statue?” It sounds as though Ilana knew that there were other people on the plane who also work for whoever she is working for. But she didn’t know who they were or even how many of them there were. That’s a strange way to run things. I agree with the poster above who said that Ilana might be the return of the D.I. to the island. But how did they know what flight to get on? A traitor in Ben’s camp? Jill the butcher perhaps?

I loved this episode.

Great episode!

First of all, we cannot believe everything Charles Widmore says any more than we can believe Ben and all he has to say. I find it hard to believe that if he knew where to send the freighter to, he had a good idea where the island was. Charles could have come back on the freighter if he wanted to. I would say the freighter folk were there just to extract Ben. Thus opening the way for Charles to return after the dust settled. Why come back, though? Apparently everyone ages except for Richard, so it can’t be for eternal life. Also, does Charles think that the others and Richard are just going to welcome him back with open arms?

Plus, great casting with David S. Lee as Charles’ younger self. It was spot on! Loved HIS wig though!

@Eva & Meg
The ancient toilet flush was amusing, but it did get me thinking a bit about the use of water pressure. The pressure covering the vent(s) could keep Smokey contained. I want to tie this to the rain. A geyser of expelled water that accompany’s smokey’s presence? I watched an episode of Robinson Crusoe on NBC in which hydraulic water presssure was designed into some ancient ruins found on his island that allowed stones to be moved and chambers opened that no normal amount of manpower could achieve.

@ Lostntonic
Are the shoes important or the fact that Locke’s going barefoot? He’s going back to the roots, old-school others’ style, and communing with the island.

@Agus
Are you thinking about the statue quote as a possible reference to the vessel of the body? It merits some more thought.

I want to talk about “the elephant in the room” too, but I’m out of time.

what’s in the metal box -locke’s coffen, guns

what was with the big toilet,that ben flushed to find smokey.

lots of locke taking his shoe on and off ,what’s up with that.

how much memory did smokey take from ben,because he did remember the 06 + gang in dharma times.

In particular Locke’s shoes. Which of course are actually Christian’s shoes.

It’s what my attention kept zooming in on last night.

If you watch the Locke scenes in the first half of the episode from last night you see the shoes predominantly in a couple scenes and I’m wondering what the message is.

In one scene Locke has the shoes propped up on the desk while he confronts Ben about killing him (the elephant in the room). We also see Locke putting the shoes back on, if I remember correctly I think it’s when he gets out of the boat on the dock? We also see him stopping to tie them. I think the airtime the shoes get last night is somehow there to remind us of something.

But what?

Maybe I’m just being silly!

The Egyptians believed that in order to have everlasting life after death, you need a sound Ka and Ba. The Ka is the name for the soul, the immaterial spirit or personality of a person or god. The Ba is the shell or physical body left behind. Ancient Egyptians believed that an individual needs both of these to remain intact (hence their elaborate embalming rituals) and pure in order to have a chance at living in paradise after this realm. The Ka is also known as a person’s “Double,” that travels into the spirit realm during dreams or out-of-body experiences, either into the Underworld/Duat or into Heaven. Not only do a person’s Ka and Ba have to be preserved in order to enter the divine realm, but they must be in perfect balance with Maat, as weighed by Anubis and Thoth in Tuat to reach heaven. Where is Tuat, one might ask? The Book of the Dead places this realm on the dark side of the moon (Blavatsky & Judge 2).

Instead of seeing death as an end to life, the ancient Egyptians saw it as the beginning of a dangerous journey (Wikipedia 3). That is why they had texts such as The Book of the Dead (known to ancient Egyptians as The Book of Coming Forth by Day) to guide the dying with magical formulae intended to justify a person’s deeds (negative confessions) and teach them how to avoid complications during this important voyage.

In order to reach the realm of the gods, the Egyptians believed a person must first travel through the Underworld, where their heart is weighed on a scale by Anubis (son of Osiris and Nepthys) and Thoth (Kinnaer 2). All of a person’s good and bad deeds would be considered. If a person had committed an excess amount of bad deeds, a monster known as “Eater of the Dead,” or Ammit, with the head of a crocodile, would eat the hearts weighed down with sin.

Craaaaaaaaaazy theory coming up: What if the island is the egyptian underworld or judgement place, where Anubis wheights and judges every person for his acts and decides to either redeem or condemn them. I know that the writers said that the island wasn’t a purgatory but who knows, there’s a lot of evidence pointing at this. Smokey will play the part of Ammit (come on, he does a weird crocodile sound)

There’s also an egyptian myth which says that in order to be revived, Osiris’s body parts (he was torn into pieces by Set) must be reunited…what if the crate that Ilana was carrying has like a part of
it..dunno lol.

love the podcast!!

here’s the link to the site where i took all the info http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall04/Hilton/underworld.htm

I think that the voices in smokey without the ” last time on Lost” smoke flashbacks were enough…
the smoke monster records events from the same POV as the Lost TV camera crew… it just looked silly

I keep bringing up real people reactions not being written into the script. No one is happy or freaked out to see anyone after all they go through. No one has a burst of confused questioning that would happen when you crashland on a magic island twice, time travel, or return from the dead… just a slightly surprised look a handshake and a hello. sick of it.
“Hi mr. Locke… how’s my dad?” I miss normal people talking. Hurley comes the closest but he’s written way too goofy at times. We should still be getting normal people reacting to extraordinary events.

It is not a certainty that she works for Widmore OR the Others. There is still a player that has not been represented in “the coming war”. There is still the remains of the Dharma Initiative…and the Hanso Corporation that funded the DI. (I’m not sure if that is canon or just part of the outside sources…help me out, Losties).

The men that Sayid killed that Ben identified have only been identified as working for Widmore by Ben. And we know how well things work out when you trust Benjamin Linus. And if they didn’t work for Widmore, then they worked for someone else. And we know that Ilana is tied to whomever the very wealthy men on Sayid’s list worked for. And based on the password question about the shadow of the statue, it would appear that whatever group she is affiliated with knows much more about the island than even she is letting on.

That is assuming that she wasn’t using the 816′ers return trip as a way to find the island for a whole OTHER group that hasn’t even been introduced yet. (I hope not, though…it seems too late in the series to add a new player…too much Deus Ex Machina for my tastes)

I think I just got a nose bleed.

Your post made me laugh out loud. When I was watching Ben summon Smokey I was like, “So Smokey is summoned by the flushing of an ancient Egyptian toilet?”. A little bit disappointing, but funny.

Ben wanted to be judged by smokie to find out if Alex was originally suppose to die or not when he stole the baby. Smokey didn’t care that Ben had let Alex die becuase she was originally suppose to die back when Ben first stole her. As Widmore told Ben, the Island will later decide Alexs fate, and we know thati f the Island doesn’t want you dead it will keep you alie, but since the Island let alex die she was alwats suppose to die. But wanted confirmation that there was nothing he could have done to prevent Alex from dieing at some point.

Remember that the first thing Ben did when he got to the hotel after turning the donkey wheel was to ask what year it was. We know that the island doesn’t have a set timeline, so a trip to or from the island can result in a surprising arrival/departure time. Who is to say that Widmore left the island in 1992 and didn’t end up in Ann Arbor in 1977? It could be anything.

Ben shot Desmond and had been planning to murder Penny before little Charlie caused him to lose his nerve. He has plenty to apologize for. I don’t think that Penny is dead or that much more happens with that scene. Desmond beat the complete crap out of Ben, I don’t see how Ben could do much more damage at that point. Plus the gun was lost in the water and I don’t think Ben could do anything to Desmond in a fist fight ). I think Ben just floated away with his tail between his legs and made that phone call to Jack.

Did it seem like Ben recognized the name Christian when Sun was telling them about him? I’m dying to know how much Ben knows about the Shephard family.

From the way Ben was looking at Locke at the end of the episode, it seems like he may finally be willing to follow him, at least for now. It was the look of a true believer. It reminded me of the Doubting Thomas story he told Jack in “316″. “We’re all convinced sooner or later”. Let’s hope his homicidal tendencies (especially towards John) have been curbed for the time being.

We know Danielle arrived in 1988. When we saw Alex on the swing right before Richard was exiled, she was at least 4, more likely 5 or 6 years old. That definitely puts the exile somewhere around 1993 or 1994.

When Ben kidnapped Alex he returned her to the rustic Others village. That was early 1989. By 1993 the Others have moved into the Dharma Village. The purge must have occurred sometime in between. The 2002 date makes sense in that regard.

I can’t imagine Ben be willing or able to still attempt to kill Penny after he fell in the water so badly injured, but you know how this show is, I guess it is still possible. Hopefully Desmond set out to sea and left.
I don’t know how Widmore could know which flight to place Ilana and Sayid on if Ben only told him the day of the flight he was going back to the island. If he did know in advance from, say, Mrs. Hawking, you would think any potential employees of his would know the name Benjamin Linus and know what he looked like.
I am in the camp that loved this episode. I guess it can be anti-climatic to just have your hunches confirmed, but still, that is what telling a story involves, so I am just excited there is a show with such exciting things to speculate upon.
Ryan and Jen, you guys are awesome!

In island time 2004 the now dead Horace told Locke in “Cabin Fever” that he had been decaying and dead 12 years. That corresponds to the 1992 date for the purge.

Bill…you got me thinking….maybe that weird portal in Ben’s house is a way out?

Why was it so important to have dead Locke (love the way this sounds, like some dsort of jam) in a coffin on that plane going back ?
If he thought it was an important component of the going-back recipe, he certainly didnt show he expected a resurrection

Locke has this sort of invulnerability sentiment, like been-there-done-that type of demeanor.
Where has this enlightment come from ?
But how can he know about the way under the temple, but doesnt know about the secret vault in Ben’s house ?
Why does Ben need to go to the Temple, when he could simply be waiting for Smokey to show up ?

Lets not forget that Penny said she was not Widmore’s daughter
Was she adopted or abducted like Alex ?

Are Ilanna’s gang still after Ben ?
She had him injured at the Hydra
So she is obviously not after Ben
If she had been hired by Widmore, she would have been after Ben…
So who is she ? On her own ? Or part of a third party ?
It seems this is not the first time we allude to the involvement of third party…

Lets not forget Sayid
What happened to him after he left in the jungle ?
Was he captured or killed by the Hostiles ?

I think there is no mystery about why Ben would apologize to Desmond. He did shoot the man and attempt to kill his wife in front of his son. He seemed quite shaken and emotional during his conversation with Jack just after this scene.

I don’t believe the purge happened while Ben was in charge. At one point, he claimed that someone else was responsible for that decision.

How did you arrive at the precise date for the purge?

Ben was an operating member of the others at the point at which he kidnaps Alex. But Ben had to overcome his father as part of the purge before he really left the DI and joined the others. So, wouldn’t that mean the purge happened prior to 1988?

Here’s my rough approximation of the dates:
Incident 79-80
Purge 84
Rousseau 88
Exile 90

Widmore couldn’t have been banished until after the Rousseau events based on last night’s episode, so the “searching for the island for almost 20 years” doesn’t quite add up. Searching from 1989 to 2007 is the most generous we can be. 1990 to 2004 seems more likely.

I think we can see that the scene in which Ben returns with Alex is the opening maneuver in his play for leadership of the others. Ben places Charles in a no-win situation and publicly humiliates him. I would say that exile could have quickly ensued except that I think Widmore undergoes further physical changes before the exile indicating the passage of some time.

Widmore must have been leaving the island throughout his tenure to build his empire and father Penny. The means of transport is a very good question though.

Here’s another connundrum: Wasn’t Widmore exiled via the FDW? That was the impression I got when he staked out the exit point in Tunisia waiting for Locke.

And I’ll also be disappointed if they ultimately end it like Battlestar Galactica, where religious themes finally overtook science themes as the ultimate resolution.

And I think we actually gained a huge amount of insight into Ben’s real character in the temple scene with the vision of Alex. We continually wonder whether Ben is good or evil, and this episode showed us that he is innately good (as we see in his honest care of innocent children) but with one fatal flaw: selfishness. He will do the right thing right up until he is called upon to sacrifice himself; then he will make the wrong decision. He did so when Keamy had Alex at gunpoint (choosing his own life over hers) and I think we’ll see it happen again.

In fact, I’m placing my bet on this playing a part in the series finale next year! Alex told Ben to follow Locke’s every command, or else she would destroy him. I predict that he WILL follow Locke for the rest of this season and all of next, even though he will do some things that seem evil but in time we see that it was in Locke’s (or the Island’s) best interest. However, in the climax of the series finale, our heroes will be in a situation where the well-being of them, the island, and possibly the world is hanging in the balance, and Ben will threaten to do something in his own self-interest that mucks everything up. Locke will order him aside, but Ben will disobey (probably somehow shooting someone in the chest in the process). As Ben attempts to complete his nefarious plan, he’ll turn and see Alex, and Ben will meet his demise in a scene paralleling Mr. Eko’s death at the hands of Smokey, allowing our heroes to save the day.

In this way, Ben reminds me of another J.J. Abrams villian, Arvin Sloane, who had the same air about him: we were never sure if he was truly good or evil until the last scene, where his selfishness became his undoing.

Is it next Wednesday yet?

That was crap about having to drug Juliette while traveling on the sub to the island. They have a secret passage somewhere. And if they don’t, they should.

– Actually, according to Lostipedia, Charles says “I’ve been searching for the island for almost 20 years.” –

Exactly. The math doesn’t add up. Nor does it make sense that if Widmore had been going back and forth from the island to the mainland for years prior to his exile, he had to know where the island was, wouldn’t he? How was he going back and forth prior to his banishment?

This episode furthers the notion that people born on the island are doomed or not allowed to live. Could this be part of “the rules” of the island? This could explain Claire’s ethereal warning to Kate not to bring back Aaron, the fate of Ethan, numerous pregnancy test failures by Juliet, and Sun’s insistence for Ji-Yeon to be born off-island.

I think Ben interpreted “the rules” incorrectly, or at least tried to bend them; could it be that Alex’s death was inevitable? Ben eventually blames himself for it, which could mean that he regrets not taking her off-island which may have saved her from her fate.

I liked the reference to Season Four’s “Meet Kevin Johnson,” when Ben tells Alex and Karl to go to the last safe place on the island, the Temple- not surprised to see her spirit waiting for him there like he asked.

All in all, a good “answers” episode, one that surely could have used a 2-hour treatment to give the details for which we yearn but satisfies just enough to keep us speculating anyway. Looking forward to the next podcast.

This might explain why the Others had such an interest in children after Ben took over (kidnapping the 815 children, “We give them a better life”). Neither Alpert nor Island Widmore appeared interested in Alex, apart from surprise that Ben brought her back.

Then I thought to the conversation between Alpert and Locke in Season 3, when Alpert gives him the file on Sawyer so Locke can convince him to kill Cooper. In that conversation, Richard expresses dismay at the direction the Others are taking, mentions that Ben is keeping them occupied “with novelties like fertility issues,” and that Locke could remind everyone of the more important reasons they are there.

Perhaps Alpert became disillusioned with Ben’s leadership, just as Ben became disillusioned with Widmore’s, and that’s the end of it. But perhaps it speaks to a larger truth – that Ben corrupted the Others’ purpose, and that is why he fell out of favour with the island.

And then Alex! Alex demanding that Ben follow Locke; that he is more or less the chosen one and deserves to be obeyed. Did anyone else think Jesus at this point? The most famous resurrection, he appeared to multiple people in the following days and was followed by thousands, and ultimately changed the world. Not sure what the writers are implying now, but the Biblical theme at this stage is too obvious not to pick up on.

@Connie in Alaska
My guess is that Ben would apologize to Desmond for shooting him…right?

OK, but what does lie in the shadow of the statue? Although the answer is probably some code word, we know what actually lies in its shadow…it’s the Orchid, or rather the Well. Remember during the time traveling and Miles looks up to spot it while Lafleur (Sawyer/James) is left holding the rope. My theory is that the location of the wheel is known either by myth or fact to its proximity to the statue. If the statue is a location marker, or a guardian of sorts, then that’s probably why someone(s) removes or destroys the statue to hide its location and the secret it hides.

Have the outstanding writers abandoned the show? I’m left this morning feeling like a new group of writers received a one-line description for each character in the episode (Ben = lies. a lot.) or one line for each scene that needs to take place (Dock = Ben threatens Penny’s life. Desmond punches Ben.)

Ben, this episode, was slapped together by writers who seemingly don’t know our character. They made him out to be more like a compulsive liar – lying for the sake of lying, rather than the Ben we know, which is a Ben that delivers truths, lies, and manipulations in such a manner, and with such restraint, that we’re unsure whether or not to believe him and uncertain about his true character or intentions.

And, Widmore banished from the island because he had sex with an outsider, or was it that he fathered a child with an outsider? Either way, there has to be a reason a little more compelling than that, doesn’t there? Seems awfully trivial. The Others regularly left the island: Ben, Mr. Friendly, Richard. Hell, Mr. Friendly had an off-island relationship of his own! So if the variable is a child spawned with an outsider, shouldn’t that information have been delivered with a bit more seriousness and drama. Instead, it was offhandedly mentioned.

The Smokey slash Wizard of Oz tornado scene was repulsively cheesy.

This episode, in my opinion exemplifies my feelings on Season 5 in its entirety. Lackluster writing and white-paper, bullet-point delivery of important information makes the season ho-hum and obvious rather than mysterious, mythical, and intelligent. I’m beginning to think this season is worse than Season Two; I can name only four episodes this time around that remind me of traditional, mysterious LOST. The rest of the season = nighty-night, yawn.

Note to Frank: grow your beard back.

The “shadow of the statue”… could that refer to the area around the Orchid Station/and water well portal?

Aren’t we wondering why Sun, who was a bona fide Oceanic 6, wasn’t included in the “rapture” to 1977 with Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid. My guess is she’s been tainted with Widmore influence.

My wife says Desmond was saved by having a canned ham for Easter in the grocery bag. That was a great scene when Ben glided underwater with spurting blood from his mouth. Great temple set. Great lighting & camera work on this episode.

Don’t you think Richard Alpert lied to middle-age Widmore about it being Jacob’s decision to save young Ben?

Great having a break from Jack and Kate and all that emotional violin music.

There seem to be other ways to get off the island besides the donkey wheel and the sub. How did Mr. Friendly get off for the interaction with Michael? I suspect that we just don’t know what they are yet.

They made references to Widmore leaving the island repeatedly, which is WHY he was exiled. He could have easily been building his empire all that time.

@ Nate in Ohio
It could be Ben had snuck his way back into Dharmaville and was living among them. There are a couple references to that in this episode, one of which by Richard.

I loved this episode. It might be my favorite this season.

We know the following dates:

Alex was kidnapped in early 1989.

The Purge happens on December 19, 1992.

Sometime post purge when Alex looks to be 3-5 years old, Ben exiles Charles Widmore by means of the sub, claiming that he broke the rules by having a child with an off islander during one of his trips off the island.

Widmore begins to fund Daniel’s research in 1994 according to Desmond in “Jughead”.

During the 1994-1996 time period Desmond joins the convent, meets Penny and in 1996 asks Charles for permission to marry her. Penny has to be in her early to mid 20′s, so she had to have been born in the mid to late 1970′s.

So, here are the questions:

How was Widmore leaving and returning to the island pre-purge, back in the 1970′s? The Others didn’t have the sub until December 1992. We know that Richard has left the island several times, as early as the 1950′s. How are they doing it?

If Charles is not exiled until sometime after 1992, how was he able to build his huge empire “Widmore Industries” in just the few years before Desmond first meets him in 1996? That’s only 3-4 years to go from a scruffy island other to a rich multi-millionaire.

If Charles didn’t leave the island until at least 1993, how could he have been looking for the island for 20 years as said by Miles in 2004 and by Charles himself in 2007?

Ben exiles Charles after 2002 because he had a child with on off islander. Assuming that they mean Penny, she has to be at least a late teenager by that point. How did the Others not know this before?

It just seems that until “Dead is Dead” we were being lead to believe that Charles was exiled sometime around 1984 (20 years before 2004). That would at least have given him time to build his empire. Did the writers screw up their own timeline by having the exile not take place until sometime after December 1992 considered what we know about Desmond’s first meeting with him in 1996?

So I think we called Anubis right on the statue. So now we have Anubis feeding smokey something. As long as it isn’t Vincent, I’m good but what does that mean. This island is the island of the dead. Anubis guards it and smokey has the ability to make the dead appear. Hum. more to come on that.

Alana has to work for Widmore. We had previously deduced that it had to be Ben or Widmore because they would have been the only ones who knew Sayid killed on the golfcourse. But what is in the box? Is that the magic box? Has smokey made her “sick” when we weren’t watching? Seemed to be a major transformation of personality – much like the frenchies.

Can’t wait for more!

I agree with many that „What lies in the shadow of the statue?“ is similar to „What did one snowman say to the other snowman?“, a code to reveal allies.

The drain looked like an ancient high-tech toilet.

Love tnat Locke is back exuding confidence and strength again. He not only rocks, he IS a rock!

I think the comment Ben made about the Smoke Monster not being like a train was very funny since that’s EXACTLY what it looked like when he summoned it to deal with Keamy and the Freighter Bullies.

Loved the look on Ben’s face when dead-Alex outed him for planning to kill Locke AGAIN…is their no end to his scheming and will all those threats be enough to put him on the straight and narrow at last, or will he be plotting how to beat Smokie at his own game before he even gets out of the Temple tunnel?

The Hostiles seem to live very earthy and low tech…tents, horses, no electricity, out in the woods. For Ben to move them all to Dharmaville, with all its fancy high-falutin gadgets, after the Purge seems to go against the Hostile code for simplified living. Did that work against him somehow later on?

I think Elana works for Widmore. She is his mole on the Island. Poor Lapidus didn’t have a clue…so sad.

Why does Ben feel the need to apologize to Desmond….hmmm…

Finally, Alex was supposed to die at the hand of Ben Linus. As baby-Alex, he had compassion and let her live, as his own daughter no less. But whe was always supposed to die through Ben’s actions. It took awhile, but it finally happened 16 years later. Perhaps that is why Smokie couldn’t find him guilty…Ben had finally done what he was supposed to have done 16 years earlier and was therefore in good standing with the Island at last…at least in this one circumstance.

The other thing that really stood out for me in this episode was the fantastic facial acting throughout. It was a thing of beauty.

Good luck in trying to get through this episode in your normal podcast time
Can’t wait to hear it.

As for the question, “What stands in the shadow of the statue?” I have this thought: the statue stands in its own shadow, no? Last time I remember a password needed by someone on LOST was the answer to this question, “What did one snowman say to the other snowman?”

I am thinking “souls.” Young souls, old souls, clean souls, dirty souls. This island definitely has an ability to sort, judge and maybe even recycle them. Maybe the incident has something to do with these kids (new souls), but I can’t put it together quite yet Perhaps the island is jealous of its own and a rule that was broken, damaged its ability to generate new souls pawned on island? Who was the first rule breaker? Charles Whidmore of course. Why would whidmore think the killing of a child would protect the island… twice. Guilt? Did Whidmore conceive Penny on island and then submarine her off despite the rules, causing the island to “clamp down” on offspring? Now, no one can have kids.

Ben and Rouseau’s kids where spared by Richard and Ben, respectively. Perhaps the island spirits\god grew weary of its human’s frailties but Ben made it a personal mission to raise offspring on island again despite the islands wishes?

We can see Widmore making the same leadership errors and employing the same tactics as Ben all in the name of defending the island at any cost. Is there an expiration date on leadership as the abilities conferred by being an other–mastery of languages, super stealth, telepathic whispering, etc–inevitably lead to mission drift and corruption?

I hate to break it to you, my mutual friends, but I don’t believe we’re finished with the encounter at the docks. I didn’t see Ben’s arm get busted or feel a sin worthy of a deathbed apology.

I thought it was interesting to note that Ben seemed to be dreaming when Locke roused him at first. Once again, it is the mirror image of when Ben watched over a sleeping Locke in the jungle. (Cabin Fever) At the time, Ben told him “I used to have dreams.”

@Eric from Ohio. Sorry. Best line ever: “”I just didn’t have time to talk you into hanging yourself again.” Because you know he could have done it!!!You have to watch with awe a powerful villain like that and, for a moment, I really thought they were going to pull the plug on Machiavellian Ben. But if you really think about and believe his conversion, that Ben is now gone for good. A new person and a true servant has taken his place.

Ben summons Smokey, but he doesn’t show up. Maybe he didn’t visit Ben, but the other guys, eh?

Just food for thought.

Could retitle episode: Saving Innocence. Ben “loses” is innocence and is perpetually drawn to saving the Innocent. Brilliant.

Loved the smokey scene: so Wizard of Oz like when Dorothy was up in the cyclone.

Locke/Ben scenes were pitch-perfect with much that was funny.

Still curious why Sun was separated from the other O6′ers. Can’t wait to learn more about Iliana’s group.

And very eager for Desmond’s return but we may have to wait until next season.

Thanks R&J for all you do. Maybe this next Hiatus we can look back at some old episodes grouped by theme, character or mythology?

I still think the statue is not Anubis, despite the picture of Anubis on Smokey’s dog house.

Now, if my memory serves me, Anubis was the god that weighed the hearts of the dead to determine their place in the afterlife. He essentially judged the souls of the dead. Also, Anubis is always depicted with very long ears.

I still think the statue is Horus. We’ve seen more of Horus throughout the series. The symbol of Horus was in Swan Station timer. And the name Horace Goodspeed is another allusion.

And the pharohs of ancient Egypt were supposed to be incarnations of Horus.

But, that’s my take.

Locke sees Boone in the sweat lodge before being judged worthy of speech again, Eko sees Yemi while being judged, Ben sees Alex when being judged, (and Locke the moment he re-crashes on the Island)

Oh, and count the zigzags in that hieroglyph. Cool.

@Mike
Yes, sometimes I feel plots are shortened too much, but the overall balance of a huge ensemble show is important. It took several episodes to get back to Locke, but it was so worth it.
Maybe Ben was doing some Sayid-doctrine pruning of the herd (and some more self preservation)
As far as horses, I assume that they would have island fertility problems as well, unless the Smoke Horse got a paint job.

Blown away, not hating it AT ALL that we got so many connecting pieces,

and Yerts!

What lies in the shadow of the statue????????? I hope you know because I don’t have a clue. (The Temple , The Magic Box , maybe some answers )

Thank you so much Ryan and Jen.

We know many orphans on this show don’t we!

Anyway- I like the picture of Annubis and the smoke monster that Ben was looking at just above where old smokey came slithering out of the grate.

This did remind me of when Ecko was seeing the images from his own life in old smokey- and yes very early on in season 1 Locke was “judged” by smokey himself.

I do wonder, like others, if smokey manifests himself in the images from their memories…so Alex saying “Listen to Locke” could really be smokey saying “listen to me” meaning Alex and Locke are both somehow manifestations of smokey.

…and all of you who are saying you are so glad that Des and Penny and baby Charlie are ok…I would hold your proverbial horses…seems that scene may not have completely played out…why was Ben telling Sun to tell Des he was “sorry”. Something more could have happened.

Also- seems like on the Island Charles may have had Daniel with Ellie and off the Island he had Penny…perhaps as we have said before- there are two mothers.

I was a little annoyed with the group of folks on the little Island – because I thought- oh crap more people- another group to worry about and wonder about…but I guess we now know who was chasing Sawyer and Juliette et al on the boat that rainy night…

I can’t wait to see Miles and Marvin Candle next week!

Michael281- Kind of funny to me. I said the exact same thing you wrote, but about the two previous episodes. They seemed way out of line, written by someone(s) not fully in touch with the show. However, this episode was back in the spirit of things and I found it to be what I had been waiting for. A relief, as I was dreading the possibility of a third dud in a row (for me).

I like the “shadow of the statue” being an ID question to allow confirmation of a conspirator’s identity. Feels right.

Terry and Micheal once again showed the magic they weave together, their chemistry is strong. And Michael owned the episode, not the way ‘Kate’ and ‘Sayid’ failed (relatively) in their two previous centric episodes.

As for the answers not being up to the mysteries, well, I have felt similarly. LOST still has over a season to go, and I think that patience will be rewarded. The answers need to be teased for the most part, and fat juicy reveals will be doled out sparingly until the end. The myriad mysteries will need to be packaged a bit, and some of the packaging may leave some mysteries inadequately resolved, as it should be. But the mythos of this show is strong, and I feel it will plumb the foundations of existance in many ways, as it is doing now. The answers will not please everyone, and not all answers will be provided. To do otherwise would be beneath the concept of not pandering to the lowest common denominator in their viewership.

I continue to be pleased and amazed at the brilliance of both the show, and its audience (as demonstrated by this podcast, and the castees). What a fantastic ride. What fantastic characters, actors, acting, and writing. Cinematography and Score are also brilliant. We are fortunate that out of the wastelands of television…

Love the podcast, the bloggers, and you Ryan and Jen.

What an awesome episode. Definitely in my top 5 of all LOST episodes!

I mentioned last week on this blog that I have felt Ben is a Darth Vader like character and this episode made me think I am still on track with that theory. Ben like Darth or Anakin to be accurate is driven by some pretty raw emotions for good and for evil purposes. Power has corrupted Ben overtime obviously and the island is making him pay for this. I can’t tell you how much I loved the Smokey scene and how it reminded me of the ghost smoke a.k.a. wrath of God from the Ark of the Covenant. Someone needs to cast Michael Emerson as a Nazi. He would win an Oscar! I almost thought his face was going to melt! Maybe Lucas is secretly funding this show…nah! Back to Ben, he is I believe good, but selfish and it will be interesting to see whether he does follow John as ordered.

Poor Caesar met his Brutus! Is he dead? Something tells me the Island won’t let him get blasted so easily. I mean if Baby Ben can take a direct hit to the heart and have it magically turn and hit his right side and then live, then Caesar needs a chance to resurect as well.

Locke Rocks! That needs to be a T-shirt! Love that the good old John we love is back. I just can’t wait for him to break out his old knife. I wonder if Abadon shipped it back to the island before he got blasted? I can’t wait to see how John masters the frozen donkey wheel… actually I think he will end up using the Magic Box to get back to 1977.

Elana and her buddies are not Widmore’s! The secret code they are asking for “What stands in the shadow of the statue” has got to be refering to the Donkey Wheel? Maybe it is refering to something inside the Temple? This one is a stumper no doubt! I bet money they are either working for Hanso and the folks in Michigan or for the US Government. I find it hard to believe that Dharma’s founders would just forget about there special projects after the Purge. Maybe Ben has been keeping them thinking that the Dharama’s are still going strong on the island. As far a my US Gov theory goes. Something tells me that a rogue atomic weapon in the South Pacific has not gone forgotten over time. If Elana’s group are Widmore’s. I hope they enable Charles to come back to the Island so he can be judged in Season 6. So what’s in the silver box? My guess is it is some major tech to make the island stop moving or show up on radar.

I hope we have a Frank Lapedis episode soon! Can’t wait to hear your Podcast and to see more Miles and Hurley next week. Oh yeah… I am glad Penny and Desmond are ok for the time being. Something tells me Desmond is going to end up killing Ben and we will hate him for it… Desmond that is.

Cheers!

A couple of things to point out:

*1988-Ben steals Alex from Rousseau. 11-year old Ethan is with him. We know that at this time, Ben is still a member of the Dharma Initiative, as the purge didn’t happen until 1992. I think this lends itself to the theory that Amy (Ethan’s mom) is an Other. How else is young Ethan one of the Others? Also, how did it work for Ben to be both an Other and a member of Dharma? Did he come and go as he pleased?

*Widmore is still on the island at the time of the Purge. Ben is pushing young Alex on the swingset in Dharmaville/New Otherton, before bidding farewell to Widmore. Quite possibly, he is the one that ordered it, as referenced by Ben in Cabin Fever.

*Ben has a weak spot for mothers & babies-sparing Rousseau and Penny. Is this because Ben himself lost his mother as a baby, and doesn’t want to put anyone else through that kind of pain?

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/b60685893c2017ced0722e6439debed4

I have a whole bunch of questions, maybe some of you can help clarify:

1) In 1988, Rousseau gives birth to Alex, which Ben then kidnaps, correct? How can Ben be with the Others at that time when the purge has yet to take place? Not to mention his young sidekick Ethan. Could he have been living within Dharma but moonlight as an Other?

2) How does Widmore leave the island before the purge? Ben mentioned that Charles left the island frequently and had a family outside the island. Did the Others have their own submarine?

3) “What lies in the shadow of the statue?” Ilana asked Lapidus. Could this be some sort of riddle that identifies “spies” to each other? Could Ilana be working for Widmore and was told to ask this question to people to identify her allies?

So many other questions, and I can’t wait for explanations! Love LOST, love the podcast!

I’ll start with what i liked, since once you read the rest you’re going to ask, well what did this guy like?

Man, the acting in this episode was so good! I don’t usually comment on acting but the look on Emerson’s face in every shot was brilliant! Kim did amazing as well as Terry and Fahey. Just a solid job all around, i believed everything they said and did.

I also liked that we’re getting back to the meat of the story. Setting up how they’re going to re-unite with the other Losties. I loved the dynamic between Ben and Locke. Roles have been reversed indeed!

Now for my rant…The uneasy feeling i’ve been getting all season long was just solidified in this episode. The writers have been spending 4 long seasons developing these intensely interesting and i’m finding it’s like the writers could not be bothered by giving us the full story or a thorough answer to anything. Perhaps this is because there are other underlying things at play that they cannot get into; but i’m thinking that they’re running out of time and the answers i’m getting are a bit flat.

First Caesar. why set up a character the way they have just to kill him off. Did someone get a DWI again? This was a Nicki and Paulo moment which did not move the plot forward and was just pointless. We kind of already knew Ilana was the mole from the Sayid episode “He’s Our You”; and we knew that Ilana and Caesar were not in cahoots with each other in “The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham”. So my assumption was that he was going to be important in other ways, obviously not.

Then there’s the Rouseau back story in under 3 minutes again. We have waited 4 seasons and many Rouseau episodes for her back story and now it’s pieced together over the course of a season in chopped up bits? It’s almost as if the writers couldn’t be bothered to give us a throrough answer to any given question. She wasn’t acting as crazy as Bad-Wig-Ben portrayed in the very next scene. On the contrary, she’s acting pretty natural for someone who just her baby stolen and her life threatened! I have yet to see Rouseau act anything but sane in these flash backs.

Next we have Widmore. The others have horses now? I guess the answer to this is that they’ve always had horses and they just like to stalk in the jungle on foot for creepy effect?
So…Just because the guy was doing a little double dipping off island; and he’s gone…like that! I really would have rather the reason be something other than infidelity. Something about this just doesn’t sit right with me. How the heck does Bad-Wig-Ben know so much about what the island wants? …please fill in blanks writers!

Now off island with Penny and Desmond. So they set up Ben in “316″ as all beat-up and creapy looking just to find out that he doesn’t kill anyone because of the kid. I know they’re trying draw a parallel with Rouseau but this set-up seemed like one big ruse. Don’t waste my time with this non-plot-moving stuff and get on with the story. Just seamed like filler.

I probably need to stop now, seems like i’m the only one who finds that the answers are just not as thorough as the questions have been and i’d like a little more attention paid to it. What i liked about sesaons 1-3 were the pacing. I like long developed, rich plot lines. Lord of the Rings, for example, does a wonderful job with this; And then Tolkien pays just as much care and attention to answering the questions and resolving every dilemma. I just don’t see that much care being taken in these last few seasons. It’s like the end date has made them rush all the info out.

For what it’s worth, I truly think this is my favorite show of all time, which is saying a lot coming from a pretty huge Trekkie. I just hope they re-visit some of the answers they have already provided.

Oh, and Ben did not tell Locke “dead is dead”; he told Sun.

Yaaay! I love this show!!

However, I have to say, the whole ‘video playback’ in Smokey… well, seemed a little “hokey.” I so love the show, that when I see silly storytelling techniques I get a little disappointed.

Still, with so much of my time invested, I’m willing to forgive… like Smokey can. As long as they don’t pull anything like that again

Namaste.

Lock is too calm and too serene, like Christian, there is just no emotion there, just a attitude of superiority and knowledge. Very creepy. Note that No one has actually touched John yet, just like Christian.

re: Penny and Desmond, that isn’t over, I think it went further after he was out of the water.

I think that the people from the plane getting the guns are Widmore’s people, he set them up on the plane to get them back on the Island, he know about Hawking, so maybe he knew about the flight as well.

John will turn the donkey wheel to get back to 1977.

A great episode! Every episode is bittersweet for me now, only one more month to go, it’s going to be a long 9 months.

Ilana and her “shadow of the statue” comment. Eh? Say what? I’m dying to know more now – she seemed so inconsequential, even though she had seduced Sayid and brought him back. Now, we have to assume she was either working for Ben and knew it (and therefore lied on the plane) or has her own agenda. I reckon she’s working for Widmore.

But I love how they made it seem like both Ilana and Cesar were integral to the plot – but it looks like only Ilana will be. (Then again, who knows – maybe we come not to bury Cesar.)

Alex showing up: Totally did not see that coming.

Also, I buy that Ben is lost right now. I believe what he told Sun – that he didn’t expect Locke to be alive, and that it “scares the living hell out of me.” I believe what he told Locke, which is that he thought it would work, but seeing is so much different than just belieiveing (great parallel to his conversation with Jack in the church/Lamppost).

I think he honestly doesn’t know what’s what. He broke the rules (by letting Alex be killed, or by trying to kill Penny), and so he is out of favour with The Island. But I also wonder now if Locke is not technically alive but more like Alex/Claire/Christian/Charlie. Dead, but “here.”

Remember, Charlie was “dead” but still “here” – he could slap Hurley upside the head. So he has some sort of corporeal form. I think that’s what’s up with Christian, Claire and now Locke. And Alex, which is why she could ram Ben against the wall.

Interesting that John Locke had an encounter with the smoke monster very early in season 1 or 2. If I remember right he said, “I looked into the eye of the Island and what I saw was beautiful.” So he has already been judged by the Island or smoke monster and passed.

I just can’t help but to think back during the season 1 episode Pilot Part 2, where Locke and Walt are on the beach and Locke sets up a backgammon set. Locke says to him, “Backgammon is the oldest game in the world. Archeologists found sets when they excavated the ruins of ancient Mesopotamia, 5,000 years old. That’s older than Jesus Christ.” Walt then asks, “Did they have dice and stuff?” Locke responds, “But theirs weren’t made of plastic, their dice were made of bones.” Walt, of course, thinks this is neat: “Cool.” The camera shows Locke holding two of the playing pieces and he says, “Two players, two sides. One is light, one is dark. Walt, do you want to know a secret?”

That one scene I’ve always felt was more than just a talk between John and Walt, it represents what the most absolute and basic essence of what the story is all about. That is, conflict between two opposing forces and seeking resolution, an end but knowing that the outcome is always the same no matter what (what happens, happens and dead is dead): life/death, young/old, light/dark, winner/loser, faith/science. We don’t know what Locke says to Walt, we assume he tells him about his legs, but what if he knows something else? Though not likely, with what we know now, I have to wonder.

Did anyone think Sun was strange..nothing felt real this week…which is the genius of the writers. I am already counting the minutes to next Wednesday.!
Elizabeth

First of all – thank God that both Desmond and Penny are safe and Desmond rocks for beating the hell out of Ben.

Secondly – Hail Caesar, we hardly knew ye. We all thought he was set up to be a major character and all he was was a setup for Ben. Ben let Caesar think that Locke was a danger so that he would follow him, only for Ben to use Caesar to regain Locke’s trust and help him get back to the island. Caesar never saw it coming, nor did I.

Thirdly – Illana and the shadow of the statue. Who is she really and how does she know about the statue and what is in that container that she has taken hold of?

Fourthly – Alex, are you real or are you a shadow. Are you one like Christian and perhaps Claire? Do the dead become the undead on the island? I’m glad that you held your dad responsible for your death and even happier that you told him he now had to obey John Locke.

Fifthly – Charles Widmore – how neat to see you on the island in two parts of your life especially as the Widmore we know so well. Why exactly were you banished? Was it really just because you had a baby with an non-islander? That being said, then who is Ellie? If Ellie is not Penny’s mother and your spouse who is she? Is she your sister? Is she still on the island when you get exiled?

Sixthly – Sun – Great to see you, but your mind has to be spinning. Your husband is in the past, your current company is a murdering liar and a dead man. You have to think you’re in the Twilight Zone.

Seventhly – Frank – Why did you abandon Sun? and what will your future be back with Illana and her crazy followers? I suspect that Illiana will be involved in the outrigger that shoots at our Losties when they jump in time.

Finally – Ben tells Locke that “Dead is Dead” but in fact it seems that dead is anything but dead. So, it seems that “Dead is Dead” is just another of Ben’s lies.

Wow what a eppy!!!!!!!! So glad to see that Ben didnt kill Pen. That would have been so unfair. Ok onto Ben…… I am begining to think that the island started out liking Ben, but he got too power hungry and now is still trying to regain what he had before, hence the warning from Alex/monster that he better do as Locke says because Locke is now the chosen one. But Ben being Ben well that just wont happen so I really think Ben’s days are numbered now. But Ben will take us all for a ride and try to outfox Locke and the island, but he will not win. God I will miss him lol.

Widmore….. I really think he is the bad one granted we dont know enough but its coming I can feel it, cant you? I also think that those ppl on the plane are more of Widmore’s people and they have a mission ….. Something is in the works there.

Desmond …… woot what a guy, so now we can look forward on how he sails back to the island. Or he goes back to Elle and she tells him, thats probably what will happen.

Sure wish I studied Egyptian writings, cause those walls were full of stuff just waiting for us to discover, and when the monster looked at Ben’s life there are pictures in that smoke just couldnt see on reg tv, so will wait for the screen shots woottttttt.

San

Locke is a Pimp

Ceaser’s not dead

Ilana = others

Ben has a heart

Locke is somehow “born again” now, as highlighted by Locke telling Ben that was how he felt.

I noticed that Anubis, the jackal-headed Egyptian god of “ma’at” or “justice” was on the tomb right above the grate where the smoke monster emerged. I think that means that the four-toed statue was of Anubis. Therefore, I think the Island might be some place where people come to be judged. That’s probably not the whole story, but justice is definitely emerging as a major theme here. The smoke monster scene really makes you wonder what it is that Eko saw…

I also loved how we got to see a semi-humane side of Ben tonight. Sure, he was lying through his teeth to John the whole episode, but it seems like children have a really profound effect on him. I really think he is much more complex than the purely evil, manipulative guy that most people accuse him of being.

I’m starting to believe Ben is really just trying to protect the island, but that he is also selfish which is what ruins his character…he might be one of the good guys after all.

“It’s not a train, John. It doesn’t run on a schedule.”
-Ben

They definitely represent rules. The question is to what extent can they be broken? I’m banished to that camp that says they can.