Next: “Whatever Happened, Happened” (Episode 5×11)

“Evangeline Lilly was very good in this episode.” Those are eight words that I never thought I’d hear come out of Jen’s mouth. But I have to agree. This was a character-driven episode, another conventional flashback setup, but I dare say I liked its execution and the performances at least as much as last week’s Sayid story. And considering the grief we’ve given Kate’s character over the years, that’s saying something. Her loaded conversations with Cassidy, her compassion for young Ben and disdain for Jack, and her confession to Carole Littleton were adeptly handled. For the first time, I believed how deeply Kate felt for Aaron… and thus how devastating it was to give him up. Giving Aaron to Carol and resolving to return for Claire, says Jen, are perhaps the two most selfless things she’s ever done in this series.

The brief scene in the supermarket, where Kate goes from fear to nearly seething rage to overwhelming relief? Evangeline sold it. (Of course, probably every parent can identify with that kind of panic.) And I’ll confess it got a little dusty in the living room when Kate said her final goodbye to sleeping Aaron.

Tonight’s episode also prompted Jen to retract her declaration on last week’s podcast that Roger Linus is the worst dad ever. His brief (and somewhat creepy) interactions with Kate tonight humanized him. Basically I was happy to see characters behaving in ways I’d expect them to behave: Cassidy was skeptical and spiteful, which she should be, given how Sawyer’s actions looked from her perspective. Roger was worried and remorseful for his parenting, as any dad would be with a son near death.

And Jen and I agree that the conversations about time travel between Hurley and Miles were fantastic. They alone would’ve redeemed the episode, which fortunately didn’t need much help. The dialogue was clearly and wonderfully directed at us fans. I felt like I’ve been having the exact same conversation with friends each week. I loved the way Hurley triumphantly says, “So your theory is wrong!”

Only Jack, in Jen’s book, continues to frustrate and disappoint. Frankly, I can’t bring myself to type the things Jen said about him. Fortunately, both Kate and Juliet challenged him on his motives and his lack of initiative, and the hits landed so soundly that I’m confident that this shiftless “new Jack” is headed toward a reckoning. Hopefully one that will kickstart his character into the reluctant but effective leader and hero of Season 1.

Like in most character flashback episodes, though, there was limited forward motion in the “present.” But what we see is pivotal, and again, well played. We now see that it was the intervention of our dear 815 survivors that literally brought Ben to join the Others. And, in fact, Sawyer and Kate come to this chilling realization the moment Richard Alpert explains what lies ahead for the boy. And where does Alpert take young Ben? Why, to The Temple, of course.

And the 30 second scene in the “future” that closes out tonight’s episode was brilliant. Ben wakes up to see Locke watching him. Both Ben’s shock and Locke’s confidence were palpable. Things can only get better from here.

Notes & Notions

  • So, Hurley asks why Ben doesn’t remember Sayid. And Alpert later explains Ben will forget everything. I guess that’s the official answer to one of the biggest questions out there, but it’s not really satisfying. It was a lot more fun thinking Ben always knew Sayid shot him.
  • A listener recently praised how much the actors on “LOST” convey, merely through their faces. I felt that this week. In Evangeline Lilly’s performance, of course, but also in Elizabeth Mitchell’s scenes as well. Her confrontation with Jack, for one, but especially when she realizes just who could help young Ben.
  • Locations: Cassidy’s house is on Kuhana Place in Waipahu. Interestingly, I know the nephew of the couple that live there. Having 75 people swarming your home over several days is not as fun as it sounds. The supermarket was Times Supermarket on S. King Street. Interestingly, they had put up a “Tim’s Supermarket” sign up and filmed some exterior shots, so I guess they cut those out.
  • Music: Kate continues to affirm that Patsy Cline is her leitmotif. (So Jen says. I had to look it up.) And once again, “Catch a Falling Star” reappears. That song has inexplicably followed Aaron from before the day he was born.

Please comment below, e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com, or leave a voicemail on the LostLine at (808) 356-0127.

197 Responses to “Next: “Whatever Happened, Happened” (Episode 5×11)”

  1. Russell from California says:

    A few more thoughts:

    @ Angela from MA: great point about Kate leaving California without any bells going off. And the whole Auntie Kate thing, I don’t get either. I was wondering, though, we never see Clementine right? Do you think that means something?

    @ minnie: excellent point. that was the other thing I was confused about. If Ben won’t remember “this” how would he recognize Sayid or know the Losties well enough to make the List? But you’re right, the “this” probably is the resurrection in the Temple.

    @ James: We’re too deep in to go back. The thing is as humans, we have a need to want to figure things out, we want answers, but we really are just enjoying the mystery so when we get the answers, we want to go back to not knowing. Like in season three when we learned about the Others, some people were let down. I wasn’t. But some were. But then the crafty writers introduced Jacob as this big mystery to keep us hungry.

    I digress. Anyway, I think the writers have been very good at shaping seasons around groups so, in essence, we learn about the show backwards:

    Season 1: the Losties
    Season 2: the Tailies
    Season 3: the Others (Ben’s Others)
    Season 4: the Freighter folk
    Season 5: Dharma Initiative
    Season 6: the real Others (my guess is that we will learn the true nature of Alpert’s Others in the final season)

    So we have been going backwards in time the whole time.

  2. Russell from California says:

    Also, contrary to a lot of people, I like Jack’s new stance. We are seeing his early transformation from a Man of Science to a Man of Faith (maybe his eventual rise to be Jacob?)

    He wasn’t being cruel, I don’t think, but he had enough faith to know that Ben would live since he is alive as an adult.

    Let’s have faith in him. He knows he’s supposed to be on the Island, but he’s not yet sure why. He’s like a Season 1 Locke. And look how far he’s come.

  3. Jen says:

    “Growing pains”? “The show i lost”? Pfffftt. Whatever.

    Of course Sawyer and Kate aren’t consistent. Sawyer has spent three years on the island; Kate became a mom. Of course they’re not like the people in season one. If they were, the show would be really boring. It would be even more boring if they were still stuck on the island with the pissed-off giraffe.

    Nobody knows what the deal is with Ben yet. That’s what makes him so interesting. Maybe he’s a crutch, but he’s a damn sight better-written than any villain on any tv show I can think of. I defy you to come up with another funny, creepy, scary, smart character like him.

    And the season isn’t over yet. No, Desmond has been mostly M.I.A. So what? He was missing the whole second season.

  4. SOKO says:

    APRIL FOOLS
    I guess we got 2 fake outs for April Fools
    Aaron was “taken” in the grocery store… by an ugly Claire
    then maybe he was going to stay with Sawyers gal…
    but in the end he gets left with the Grandma !!

    ONE OF US
    Do you think that Alpert Lied about the effect of “saving” Ben?
    It was more interesting to believe that Ben always knew the Losties from his past. he will remember- but he will lie… He won’t ” always be” a hostile – but choose to be with them.

    YOU DON’T KNOW JACK
    I can’t believe how people have turned on Jack. He had the right idea. Wouldn’t they all feel like dopes if their actions caused Ben to become the man they all know and hate? well guess what? Stop helping Ben already. Thanks Juliet Sawyer and Kate… for nothing. nice try Sayid

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
    ..are you still sure you want to give him to us?
    uh no. Now that you said all of that creepy stuff we’d rather that he just died out here in the woods. THUD

  5. mcliam says:

    Jen, the only character I can think of that is creepier than Ben is Leland Palmer. What made him so creepy was he had no clue of the evil he was committing. I guess that would mean that Bob is the creepiest character on TV, channeled through Leland. Yuck.

    I hope Ben is judged with the same level of scrutiny as Eko. But we still don’t know for sure whether or not Ben is actually good or bad. HE does evil things, but that doesn’t make him evil, does it?

    I really love LOST, and I think this season is one of the best and your podcast is definitely the best out there.

  6. James says:

    Russell,

    You make a very good point that we can’t return to the eden of not knowing, that any revelation is intrinsically corrupt because it removes mystery, and the very essence of why lost is superb. No one will be happy at the resolution — not completely. But we fans afford these writers the liberty to take us on a ride. And I still do. The four-toed statue, Smokey, Richard Alpert — these are all still areas I think could be creative gold.

    Having said that, I must still be critical (in the intellectual sense of the word) and recognize when the emperor is wearing no clothes. As an avid fan of television writing, and Damon Lindelof, I am very eager to give acclaim when an episode is great. And not just those amazing season one episodes like “Walkabout,” but later episodes as well.

    For those who are not aware, a storytelling paradigm was passed from JJ Abrams to Damon Lindelof, and that is the notion of the reversed expectation. A great example is the reveal that Bernard was white, when audiences expected him to be black.

    The writers of LOST have come to rely on this technique as their principle weapon against cliche. Lost is an amalgum of many different ideas, and so by constantly thwarting what we readily expect, they keep it fresh and new. That’s why we all write and talk about it the next day.

    They literally have gone on record — check the original official podcasts — and said that love to take an idea, ask themselves ‘what is the opposite of this?’ and then write that.

    My grievance is when they do this and there is a fundamental shift in expectations that is beyond the scope of “cool” and it the realm of disappointing — because it undermines TOO MUCH exposition from previous episodes.

    We all remember how “the others” were originally characterized as being almost supernatural. They can go through the jungle without leaving tracks! In season two, they were truly scary. And best of all, they seemed to know what was going on the island! They have taken the children! Why, for what nefarious purpose?

    Now in season three, in the first conceit of the show, they were revealed to be a suburban community with a book club. Despite a Viking-like funeral service, which was never really consistent with other exposition, there was this odd domesticity to Ben’s house, complete with a chicken sandwich in the fridge.

    All of the sudden the island was not longer as rogue or hostile. We put up with the convenient food supplies in the hatch as a contrivance. Perhaps they could stumble upon canned goods in some old WWII hatch, but now they had a civilization complete with plumbing and infrastructure. While this was unexpected and even cool, we can’t help but feel the stakes lower.

    Critical plot elements: the missing children, Walt’s abilities to manifest reality, and many other must-knows were just thrown out as we switched gears. Kind of like Mr. Eko.

    If you are skeptical, consider this; do you remember when traveling through the jungle was dangerous? Traveling through the jungle is practically safe now, whereas at one time you were assured of destruction through the smoke monster.

    To add insult to injury, and to recoup losses, the others are no longer the real others, and natives have taken that role. But lying in between these decisions as a gaping hole, evidence of the switch, is the character of Juliet, who at one time acted very wise, and now seems to know nothing. She seems to embody the contradictions more than any other character.

    Now as a fan you can explain away the inconsistencies, but your mind knows they are there and they detract from the “wow factor” Lost used to create.

    It can all be explained of course, through mechanical episodes that dot every “i” and cross every “t.” You can tell me why Kate became so maternal, and Sawyer is such a sweetheart, but that is like telling me the emperor is wearing a tuxedo.

    This was never so egregious as in the last episode when Hurley gives a voice to the BS, and mutters aloud how preposterous the time travel has become, just so wink-wink, the audience knows that the producers know, this is officially COMPLICATED.

    And that is the problem. It is just a big mess. And they are desperately trying to avoid what happened to Heroes and other shows by playing catch-up.

    Remember when Claire put a message in a bottle in her brilliant attempt at rescue? Does anyone think we are in that same show anymore, where we want to know where they are, and how they can get home? You know, the reason everyone watched Lost.

    But now they have already been home in the ill-conceived Oceanic 6 story line. The Portugese people who were looking for them with Penny. Who cares? How Walt was manifesting things and why that mattered? Who cares? Now it’s all about a global chess game between Ben and an old British guy. And we have to get back to the island because it’s destiny. Or was it because Ben told us to? Or was it because Jin is still there? Or because Kate loves Sawyer. Or the baby needs its real mother? Maybe a bit of… everything Snooze. Let’s go back to destiny.

    Destiny being code for “we’ll figure it out later.”

    Once down becomes up, and up down, what does it matter who Jacob is? There are no ground rules anymore!

    How about the wise old lady with the pendulum? Brilliant science fiction or stop-gap scene to get us back to the island. Oh, and how do they do it? An Arabic flight and then — poof — they wake up in the jungle. Cool, right?

    No, lazy writing. What should be the most important scene in Lost history is glossed over while my tv dinner cooked. Oh, it doesn’t quite matter what the island is, but let’s back, because Ben says WE MUST!

    Guys, this show won the emmy in season one because it was AMAZING.

    The second season dropped off in quality, but still had this cool sci-fi slant, with Hanso and the Dharma Initiative. It creepy, weird and cool.

    Season three dropped significantly in quality yet again, but had some season saving episodes. Love Charlie’s final episode, when they recruited Juliet, etc…

    Season four. Yes, folks, the show jumped the shark. No loner even the same narrative structure. But you just couldn’t tell. That archeology stuff in the desert was cool, so I hung in there until…

    Season five. Nope, confirmation that it jumped. Now WAY too complicated. No emotional stakes. No narrative thrust. Characters are completely different. Dharma revealed to be officially not that cool. No one even dies anymore(previously the way the writers clean up story lines and got rid of poorly behaved actors). Now, I don’t even think characters can die.

    Season six. James proved wrong after new rattlesnake in the mailbox moment somehow redeems previous two seasons through incredibly brilliant twists. Reduction of Ben’s dominance in plot. Return of Hanso and meta-plot of saving the world. Jack and Kate revealed to be the skeletons in season one. Similar to Adam and Eve, they are the ones who regenerate civilization after an apocalypse. Okay, so maybe that last part doesn’t happen, but enough of Ben, Kate’s stupid relationship with Aaron, the tryst of Sawyer and Juliet, a constantly flummoxed Jack, and a complete inability to get to the Natives and their story, which is clearly where the story-telling wants to go, but can’t get there, most likely, because as someone here pointed out, that is probably season six stuff.

    Thanks for reading my vent. No more posts. Thanks for putting up with the length.

    James

  7. I feel bad for James. He already got a pffft and would probably get the dreaded “I hear what you’re saying…” if he makes deadline.

    Whatever happened was pretty weak, but don’t despair, the next episode looks like it will be pretty amazing.

  8. Kaysea says:

    Ive been thinking about Rose and Bernard and what became of them. I was remembering hearing (I think on the official podcast) something about how the O6 would learn what the ones left on the island had gone through while they were gone….as if to infer that those left had a hard time. But Sawyer and company dont seam to have it so bad. So would that leave Rose and Bernard who’ve had the hard time? Then I keep hearing about the Black Rock and how some have described it as a slave ship. hum What if Rose and Bernard ended up with the slavers from that ship on a flash back? I would say that would be a hard time for them both. So thats my crazy theory of the day.

    About that last comment of Richards and not listening to Charles and Ellie …What was Ellies roll? Charles wife? Sounded like more. I still think Widmore is Daniels dad…and maybe Charlotte’s too. But I think she had a different mother.

  9. greenberry says:

    Thank-you James for your well thought out, articulate analysis — I love LOST and am always loyal in that care about the core characters kind of way, but you bring up many good points — one that particularly resonated was re: Juliet embodying the contradictions of the show — previously she had that smug, creepy air and now not so much… at least she is still feisty and confronting Jack, in the nude no less —

    i actually thought the second half of season three and all of season four were top-notch and gripping — i agree this season, while I still adore this show, has felt stifled — it would have been nice to see more meaningful interaction off-island, such as between Kate and Cassidy — am still looking forward to more poignant explanations of the O6 return and their purpose and the island’s destiny, etc. — in the meantime I am being faithful and patient

  10. California Ellen says:

    so the road to hell really is paved with good intentions apparently– juliet, kate, and sawyer try to do the right thing by taking care of Young Ben only to make him “Big Bad Ben” later in life… jack thought he was doing the right thing by not helping but if he’d only dropped his attitude and helped the poor child, shown him love and compassion, Ben wouldn’t have turned into such a monster as an adult

    i’m somewhat disappointed Ben’s memory is to be wiped clean– if he were to remember how awful the Losties were to him as a child it might give him some justification, however slight, in his behavior towards them later in life… no wonder Ben would hate them so much if he remembered how they had treated him when he was most vulnerable and needy (bringing up another thought, what came first, the chicken or the egg– did the Losties turn their back on Ben because he’s so horrible to them when they arrived on the island or was Ben so horribly manipulative because of what the Losties did to him as a child?)…

    no matter which way you slice it tho, you’d have to be pretty cold hearted to not feel at least some sympathy for Young Ben… but i think i’m with jen– there’s seems to be no room for Ben’s redemption, albeit a twist like that would be in true Lost style…

    and if i have to see that scene by the dock one more time i might scream! every moment of screen time is so precious and almost every episode this season they’ve wasted several minutes repeating snatches of scenes that we’ve already seen… we’re smarter than this! there’s gotta be a better, more artistic (and shorter!) way to do that…

    adore the podcast!!

  11. Connie in Alaska says:

    @Angela re: Kate visiting Cassidy. Jack didn’t come back into Kate’s life until Aaron was at least two years old. Before her trial she could go wherever she wanted. That gave her plenty of time to travel to see Cassidy and Clem and bond with them. Jack immediately became suspicious of her “secret” trips and phone calls and it drove them apart. It is also possible that Cass & Clem moved to California to be nearer to Kate after her trial.

    I must agree with Jen that we don’t yet know Ben’s full story by a long shot. We have carefully been conditioned to see the DI as good and the Hostiles and bad, and certainly Ben’s actions have been perceived as evil up to this point, deeds worthy of a death sentence many times over. HOWEVER, it ain’t over yet! We may come to find out in Season 6 that the DI were up to no good, intentionally or not, perhaps involving the Jughead bomb, and that their extinction was warranted. The possiblities are pretty much endless here: plague, nuclear meltdown, time traveling mishaps, etc. My point is that we are too quick to condemn Ben and by extention Jack for not killing Ben when he had the chance. The jury is out until the final “thud”.

  12. Connie in Alaska says:

    Just for fun: Ben kills the Dharma Initiative after finding out their secret plans to sell the Island to Disney where they planned to set up a super-mega resort/amusement/time-traveling theme park. Instead, Disney decides to produce a show about the Island instead.

  13. Russell from California says:

    I wish we could have some sort of poll on here. I know Jen thinks Ben is pure evil, but I will not believe that. Like James mentioned in his long comment, the writers have had a long tradition of applying “reversed expectation” to mostly all of the characters.

    We know Ben goes into the Temple and “his innocence will be lost” so maybe his redemption will come in the last season as we see him battle himself to try to regain what he lost in his resurrection. In any case, mark these words: Ben is not evil; he’s just ambitious.

  14. Glenn - Just curious says:

    James….Nice!!

    I liked the rant. Agreed, we all put up with a lot from the writers too. The “Ben will be different and won’t remember anything” explanation sucks. And yes, they jumped the shark when the Island moved last season. Anything goes after that!

    Buy we’re all still hanging in there though. We are way beyond trying to get off of the Island from Season 1.

  15. HeyKir in NYC says:

    Random thought…
    How is Michael Emerson EVER going to move on to another character, in the eyes of Lost fans, after the show is over? I will ALWAYS know him as Ben. Even on an alternate timeline. 🙂

  16. paintergirl1 says:

    Is it possible to place a moratorium on the phrase “jumped the shark?” We’re all intelligent and well-educated fans. Can we come up with something more creative? Perhaps with a reference to polar bears?

    Seriously. That Happy Days episode was in 1977, and we’re still referencing it.

  17. christy in TX says:

    @paintergirl1: I know it’s not too creative, but what about: this show just “Turned the Frozen Polar Bear Wheel?”
    Also, not sure I agree about Ben faking surprise at the revived Locke. True, he does have a poker face and rarely looks caught off guard, but he has tried to kill the man too many times to not just be ticked off that he keeps ticking like the Eveready (or was it Energizer?) bunny. He’s gotta be thinking, will the island ever let the old man just die so I can return to being the leader and in power????

    @James – I feel so sad that you feel disappointed by the show’s evolution. I feel sad for myself that the best television I have ever seen will be gone in just over a year. Over 100 hours of continually improving quality programming (by most folk’s standards) would not be possible with anything that started out even half as good as Lost did. I’m just glad I was around for the ride and have something to look forward to that continually interests me and gives me a lot to think about. But if avoiding a shark jump is what you want out of life, there are plenty of quality programs based on REALITY, like History channel, Discovery, PBS, ESPN, etc. And I’m not trying to be snarky, I really enjoy quality non-fiction. But when I am wanting an adventure ride I could never dream of, I tune in to ABC on Wednesday nights @ 8pm CST.

  18. Gayle says:

    Three thoughts:
    1. did you feel the star wars montra, the whole darth vader being the somewhat innocent child (even though he was annoying) and then going to the dark side. I wanted to say Ben you are darth vader.

    2. I can’t forget about that book from the last episode the book a “separate reality” on wikpedia they said that it is a book about a teacher mentoring a student. So was this suppose to mean that Sayid is Ben’s student? Was that the killing he was doing in the real world?’ Was Ben testing Sayid’s fate the way the island was testing Jon? Is sayid ben’s predecessor?

    3. I can’t stop thinking about the parallel of Ben’s character with Walt. I truly wonder if the writers where going to center the show around Walt, his special powers and tell the story in chronical order, but realizing the concept of age, decided to introduce the concept of Ben and talior what would happen to Walt to happen to Ben’s character.

  19. James says:

    Christy (in Texas)

    I wouldn’t have written so voluminously if I didn’t absolutely LOVE Lost.

    My long rant betrays how much passion I have for the show. In fact, I opened by saying how much I love Damon and the writing.

    And I also tune in every Wednesday in HIGH DEF (the jungle looks great in high def). And of all the podcasts, Ryan and Jen have the most professional and enjoyable. My favorite thing is to hear everyone call in with their theories and insights.

    I have even conjectured that Lost might be the first show to incorporate television writing 2.0 — that is, informed by fan interpretation, the hive mind that we all share online.

    Think about it. If the producers are ever lost, they need only consult the volumes people write here that manage to make sense of all the clues. I think they might even have written Jack and Claire as being siblings this way. Because many people made that leap online long before the revelation.

    Can you imagine the future of storytelling this way? Amazing to think about. There are such incredible theories online. They change from time to time, as new episodes validate or invalidate them, but they are nonetheless fascinating.

    It is almost as if many possible alternate trajectories of the show have existed over the years through our own fantasies of what is happening on the island. This is the true power or Lost.

    The way it empowers us to dream, to envision, to speculate, to make meaning, to wonder…

  20. Weemzy says:

    i wasnt a big fan of this episode due to the reveal that ben will forget everything that happened, i think this reveal felt like an easy way out for the writers when they could of got away with saying he remembered sayid in the future, just a little thing tho but it got to me.

    i cant wait to find out what jacks purpose is going to be, i think that set up was nice and will pay off when the island gives him his true calling

    happy anniversary guys.

    Weemzy

  21. Christian in SF says:

    Hey guys,
    Long time caller, first time listener. Or, something like that.

    To all the jack haters out there: ease up on the poor guy. For the better part of 4 seasons, he always did what he thought was right, which almost always blew up in his face, and resulted in significant personal cost. Let me count the ways:
    1. He ratted-out his father to the medical board, which accelerated Christian’s eventual demise.
    2. He helped torture Sawyer to get Shannon’s inhalers; only to shift Kate’s affections away from himself and toward Sawyer for the first time.
    3. He remained intensely committed to his profession after getting married, eventually leading Sarah to leave him.
    4. He vouched for Juliet when she first joined the losties, causing his friends to mistrust him and his motivations.
    5. Finally, he gets himself and as many people as possible off the island and back home! Sweet right? Except lots of people die in the process, the ghost of his father visits him back home, and he becomes alienated from his friends and loses his soon-to-be wife. Oh yeah, he also lost his job, became addicted to alcohol and painkillers, and tried to commit suicide.

    The point is: the dude has been through a lot. Given all that has resulted from trying to do “the right thing,” it is not surprising that he would have second thoughts when presented with whether to save a dying Ben. And in spite of what the other characters argued: Ben isn’t just some kid. If it was just “some kid,” it would be easy for anybody to jump in and help out. But when the kid in question is Ben, a tormentor/killer of you and your friends (lest we forget all the misery he has heaped on Juliet, Sayid, Locke, etc.), the ethics become somewhat muddied. Good for Jack to at least acknowledge that.

    But this character turn for Jack is good. He’s learning from his past mistakes that almost led to his demise. Jack’s new and radically different philosophies and/or faith, could possibly imply that, at the end of this, he may have a shot at salvation.

    Looking forward to your latest thoughts,
    Christian

  22. Lydia from Massachusetts says:

    I am a little confused why everyone thinks Ben won’t remember anything at all that happened before his trip to the Temple with Richard. I think Richard said “he won’t remember anything about this” and by that I figured by “this” he meant anything about the visit to the temple. How does that imply that he doesn’t remember anything at all from his past? Did I miss something? Isn’t it possible Ben only will forget about the visit to the Temple and remember everything else, including being shot by Sayid? Ben clearly remembers Annie who gave him the dolls because he sometimes takes those dolls out to look at them (thinking wistfully of his innocence, perhaps?)

  23. HeyKir in NYC says:

    I agree, Lydia. I think Ben will remember his past life experiences (coming to the island, his crap father, Annie) just not the visit to the temple and how he got there.

  24. Eric in Massachusetts says:

    Not sure if anyone posted this, but do you remember the Room 23 brainwashing video at the Hydra? In that there was the line “We are the causes of our own suffering.” Now, in context it seems like they’re talking about Karma or something. But what the Losties are doing in the 70s really is the cause of their suffering.

    Sayid shoots Ben, Jack refuses to help, Juliet suggests giving him to Alpert, Sawyer and Kate bring him to the Temple. Ben then loses his innocence, grows up, kills Dharma, and manipulates and murders the Losties in 2004. They literally causes of their own suffering. Just thought that was interesting.

    @Lydia: It’s because earlier in the episode Hurley asks “Oh yeah, then how come Ben didn’t recognize Sayid, the guy who shot him?”, and Miles replies with “…Huh. Hadn’t thought of that.”. His theory has a hole in it. Then Alpert says “Oh, he won’t remember this.”, filling in the hole. Seems like a direct answer to Hurley’s question to me.

  25. Lydia from Massachusetts says:

    @Eric — regarding Hurley’s “gotcha” moment in the conversation w/Miles, one could also view it as the dawning of realization that Ben DOES remember but just hasn’t been letting on. In fact, that is what I assumed initially, because that scene came before the temple one. However, probably the simpler, more obvious explanation is correct. (Still, aren’t we to assume Ben remembers some stuff from his pre-temple life, like how mean his dad was to him? Annie? Why would that have been a several-times-revisited part of the story if he wasn’t going to remember any of it?)

  26. @Christian: Everyone assumes Jack’s escape from the island gambit was botched, but I don’t necessarily see it that way. The whole call to the freighter part was an unqualified success in that the only person who was lost was Charlie and, as we know, he had to die. In fact he even closed that door on himself to save Desmond, Claire, and the rest.

    The call to the freighter did bring Keamy’s team to the island, but can you blame Jack for not believing Ben or Locke at that point? He thought Ben had executed Sayid, Jin, & Bernard and Locke had just knifed Naomi. He was on an island on which he and his people had been kidnapped and terrorized. It was pretty clear even then that Ben was at best indifferent to whether they lived or died as long as they didn’t jeopardize an almost preposterously personified island. (In Jack’s mind) Not to mention the threats of polar bears, the smoke monster, limited food supplies. All this and the best interests of the survivors were balanced against the single fact that he once had a vision of his father there. Perhaps if Jack had opened his mind, he would have seen the special nature of the island earlier. However, from a rational perspective, he made all the right moves there. The casualties inflicted by Keamy: Alex, Carl, Rousseau, Claire? and some red shirts at the barracks all of whom went with Locke.

  27. Carol says:

    Show devices that are starting to bug me with this season, Sawyer taking his glasses off all the time for dramatic effect. Showing part of a person when we know perfectly well who it is, going back to the same dock scene in every episode, we get it, we know what happened there, do we need to relive it from every character’s perspective. I am sure next week we’ll see it from Ben’s perspective and then see how he got beat up.

    Plus everyone was in house arrest, why didn’t Myles take that time to get them up to speed on everything that happened in the last three years so they don’t make any mistakes.

    I also want to see more Myles! He is so snarky, he cracks me up. What is his purpose there? I would love to see him near the temple and see what he discovers there with his special “skills”

  28. Ron in Denver says:

    I sent Ryan and Jen an e-mail concerning Penny earlier. I’m glad other people mentioned this, that Penny must have been born on The Island and may be an Other. But also, since Farday is Elle’s son, he must have been born on The Island as well, and are we to assume that Charles and Elle are a couple, if so, Penny and Farday are sibilings.

    Also, just something to think about:
    When stuff happens at Darmaville, conveinently the real doctor is never there, why??? Is this important or not. Is the doctor out so that we can see Juliet’s doctoring abilities? Or is the doctor going to be someone we know when we finally find out who he or she is?? I was thinking that the doctor might be Jack’s dad, but we do see a flash back in earlier episodes of Jack’s childhood with his dad, so it is unlikely it is him. And also Juliet and the other Losties might have told Jack that his dad was on the Island before they put his real name on the sub’s manafest.
    Any thoughts?? Or is it nothing??

  29. The absent doctor is interesting. My first reaction would be that it couldn’t be Christian because a surgeon in residence is usually tied to a given hospital. However, Christian did have enough time to get away to father a child and, to some extent, set up a second family in Australia. Hmmm…

  30. Connie in Alaska says:

    Re Doctor Talk: Perhaps that is why Ethan became a doctor, so they would always have one around (although I still think he was awfully young to have already completed medical school).

  31. Ced from MN says:

    From Lostpedia:

    Lost wins a Peabody (not April Fools)
    By Robert K S, Lostpedia staff
    Citing the show for having “rewritten the rules of television fiction”, the 16-member Peabody Board has awarded ABC Studios’ Lost a George Foster Peabody Award for distinguished achievement in broadcasting for 2008, making the announcement on April 1, 2009. Honored along with Lost are NBC’s Olympics coverage, CNN’s election campaign coverage, SNL’s political satire, TCM, The Onion, YouTube, and others. The award ceremony will take place on May 18, 2009 at New York City’s Waldorf-Astoria Hotel and will be hosted by NBC’s Brian Williams. Informed about the award by telephone from ABC Entertainment President Stephen McPherson, Carlton Cuse initially took the news for an April Fool’s joke. Read the press release: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/ABC_Medianet/ABC%27s_Lost_Wins_Peabody_Award

  32. jenn says:

    A little late in chiming in… I had mixed feelings about this episode. I have always loved Kate, but more because of Evangeline Lilly than the writing of the character. Kate could have been a much stronger character and I feel like they’ve flubbed her storyline from day one. So her stepdad hits her mother – and she blows up the house and kills him? Kinda extreme and a bit unbelievable. Maybe if we had been shown a little bit more – other things the stepdad did – it might be easier to go along with. But to skip that information and go to the action of her doing it – well that just makes her character look stupid.

    In any case, the same goes for giving Aaron up. I do believe she would make that sacrifice but only because I like the character. I don’t feel like the writers have given us enough to really believe her character has changed so much – it is largely left up to us and our imaginations. I love that she is doing what is right by Aaron, and I love the friendship with Cassidy, but I hate that it’s all crammed into about 20 minutes of viewing time.

    Since the “end date” of the show has been established, I feel like everything has been way too rushed. I’m all for reveals and moving along the storyline… but there is way too much skipping around – and I don’t mean the time skipping – I mean the gaping holes they leave in character storyline that are obviously never going to be filled. So I’m a little disappointed with how the show has been going, but I will, of course, watch until the end and be grateful for every episode!

  33. Eva says:

    Jenn,

    I absolutely agree with you. I love Evangeline on the screen, she is a great actress. She’s done her best with the character she’s given, I only wish Kate would be more developed and versatile.

    I love the show but I’m very aware of its weaknesses.

    Nevertheless, I think Lost is one of the most intelligent fiction shows today.

  34. bevans says:

    after watching promo at end of this episode here’s a theory about Ben & ‘the rules’

    i’m thinking of pre-cognitive ability & the determinism theory of ‘what happened happened’

    my theory is that the leaders of the others have developed pre-cog ability
    (possibly through the temple, an electomagnetic anomaly
    or byproduct of radiation leaking from jughead)
    we know for a fact that Ellie has ability to see the timeline ( 3×08-flashes before your eyes)
    and as a result of the failsafe key incident Desmond has limited ability too.
    I think Ben does too and thats why he doesn’t seem concerned that Keamy will kill Alex
    because he’s seen the future and she doesn’t die.
    I think one of the rules that Ben cryptically refers to is that they must NOTuse their precog ability to attempt to change the future.

    Desmond has the ability too -but isn’t bound by the rules since he’s not an other -thats why hes the only one allowed to make changes eg he saves charlies life & somehow causes clare not to be on
    the chopper- even though in his visions she was.

    I think Widmore broke the rules first by having Keamy kill Alex & Ben has broken them too to get revenge on Widmore (i’m just not sure exactly how).
    But I’ll think we’ll get some answers in 5×12 as to what the rules are & how Ben broke them & what the consequences are going to be for the Losties.
    I think they might be
    (i) they must NOTuse their precog ability to attempt to change the future.
    (ii) once they leave the island they can’t go back
    (iii) they can’t directly use their powers to kill one another
    ( eg in 4×09 -“Have you come here to kill me, Benjamin?”
    “We both know I can’t do that.”)

  35. April says:

    Jenn, I think there was more to Kate blowing up her Stepdad than just because he hit her Mom. I think there was a suggestion there of sexual abuse. The comments he made towards her when he was putting her to bed led me to believe that was not the first time he did that and that maybe when she was younger and less able to stand up to him or do anything about it. It also would explain her inability to commit to a guy and her sexual acting out, which a lot of times can happen to those who were sexual abuse victims when they were younger. Just a theory, but it’s what I’ve always thought about Kate. I wish they would explain her actions more so that we got a better grasp of why she does this bouncing back and forth with men.

  36. April says:

    Correction, when SHE was putting HIM to bed….guess I should have read that better!!!

  37. jenn says:

    April, I’ve had that thought about Kate and her stepdad also…but again, I think it’s more because I like Kate and want to draw those lines. I think the character would have been much better off if the writers had made it clear there was sexual abuse if there, indeed, was. They wouldn’t have had to beat us over the heads with it or linger on it, but a lot of people might have had more sympathy for the character if it had been clear way back when…

  38. Crystal says:

    I think you guys read too much into Kate singing the song to Aaron. Remember, Kate and Claire shared a cabin in New Otherton. She easily could have heard Claire singing the song to Aaron at bedtime. Or perhaps she heard her singing it when they lived on the beach in the tents.

  39. Three things.

    One minor, but I thought suggestive detail emerged from the visit to the supermarket. Kate asks Aaron if would prefer regular or chocolate milk (one light, one dark) and he opts for the third way. Juice BOX! This foreshadows what Locke will do in the future as Ben and Charles both try to use him.

    A random connection from surfing around episode recaps. We’ve made quite a big deal about Ben’s convenient memory loss. As I looked back over the episode “One of Them,” Sayid interrogates Henry Gale aka Ben in the swan hatch. Anyway, Sayid punctuates his dismissal of Henry Gale’s story with the emotionally delivered phrase “You would remember!” Could TPTB have been hinting at this issue even then or is this just the patchwork fix it seems?

    The third is the craziest leap from minor suggestion to grandiose theory of all. But that’s where the fun is… (Blinded by the Light.) What if the use of “Catch a Falling Star” is trying to inform us about something larger as well? What is a falling star? What phenomenon is usually thought of as the best way to warp space/time and create a wormhole that would permit nonlinear movement through it? A black hole. There, I said it. What this would have to do with Aaron I have no idea.

    Defend the island.

  40. MadHatter says:

    I like the whole POV we’ve been getting from Othersville recently but there are a few characters that have been neglected recently. The last time we saw Faraday, he was working on the orchid and we haven’t seen or heard mention of him since! Also, did everyone else that started “jumping” through time with Sawyer et al. die when the hostiles attacked? Did they just snuff out Rose and Bernard and the rest without so much as a word?

  41. Dannoatlarge in Denver says:

    Not certain if this has been covered before. In the penultimate scene, a hostile states something to the effect, “We should tell Ellie. If Charles finds out…” My immediate though is that Widmore is not on the Island, and Ellie may be calling the shots in his absence. It’s as if Ellie is in the chain of command, and someone/somehow word can get to Charles around Ellie.

    Perhaps Widmore is off Island building Widmore Industries? Perhaps he is tending to a young Penny?

    I also like the theory of Alpert as Consiglieri, in the tradition of the Godfather stories. However, in the Sopranos mythology, Silvio acts both as a Captain and an adviser.

  42. Joe says:

    Did anyone notice who the camera lands on when Horace announces to everyone that “someone” inside Dharma lit the bus on fire and assisted Sayid’s escape? First it scans over Jack and then it lands on an older man’s face… Who is this?

  43. Joe says:

    Is this Jacob?

  44. Gayle says:

    Who is Penny’s mother? Have they talked about it? Maybe Ellie is Penny’s mother and Charlies her father, then Penny and Farday would be siblings:)

  45. Tori says:

    To me the most amazing part of this episode was that it began to explicitly uncover people’s deeper, true motivations, in a way that has not happened before in the show. I think this is the real meaning of the show: that people come to true reckonings with themselves. Those who were lost are finding themselves? Cassidy challenged Kate to admit her that her motive was attachment to Aaron, and Juliet challenged Jack to admit his true reasons for coming back to the island, if it wasn’t to save people. This is deep stuff. Unlike other folks, I’m fascinated by Jack’s efforts to try something different, not to be the hero… and also by the honest and pointed conversation between him and Kate… I.e., that she didn’t like the old him either! Go, Jack! In my view, he was calling Kate on her stuff as well.

    The way the writers weave this kind of psychological material together with the time travel/sci fi stuff continues to blow me away. Bravo, dudes!

  46. Rosie says:

    [“Hopefully one that will kickstart his character into the reluctant but effective leader and hero of Season 1.”]

    Jack wasn’t that effective a leader in Season 1. And neither were any of the other characters who assumed the mantle of “leader”. And why is it important that Jack or any other character be “a hero”?

  47. Rosie says:

    [“Jenn, I think there was more to Kate blowing up her Stepdad than just because he hit her Mom. I think there was a suggestion there of sexual abuse. The comments he made towards her when he was putting her to bed led me to believe that was not the first time he did that and that maybe when she was younger and less able to stand up to him or do anything about it. It also would explain her inability to commit to a guy and her sexual acting out, which a lot of times can happen to those who were sexual abuse victims when they were younger. Just a theory, but it’s what I’ve always thought about Kate. I wish they would explain her actions more so that we got a better grasp of why she does this bouncing back and forth with men.”]

    Wayne Jensen never touched Kate. She made that perfectly clear. The worst he ever did to her was leer at her a couple of times. I hope by now that fans have stopped trying to make excuses for Kate’s murder of Wayne. I hate to say this, but she proved to be the real monster in the family.

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