“Evangeline Lilly was very good in this episode.” Those are eight words that I never thought I’d hear come out of Jen’s mouth. But I have to agree. This was a character-driven episode, another conventional flashback setup, but I dare say I liked its execution and the performances at least as much as last week’s Sayid story. And considering the grief we’ve given Kate’s character over the years, that’s saying something. Her loaded conversations with Cassidy, her compassion for young Ben and disdain for Jack, and her confession to Carole Littleton were adeptly handled. For the first time, I believed how deeply Kate felt for Aaron… and thus how devastating it was to give him up. Giving Aaron to Carol and resolving to return for Claire, says Jen, are perhaps the two most selfless things she’s ever done in this series.
The brief scene in the supermarket, where Kate goes from fear to nearly seething rage to overwhelming relief? Evangeline sold it. (Of course, probably every parent can identify with that kind of panic.) And I’ll confess it got a little dusty in the living room when Kate said her final goodbye to sleeping Aaron.
Tonight’s episode also prompted Jen to retract her declaration on last week’s podcast that Roger Linus is the worst dad ever. His brief (and somewhat creepy) interactions with Kate tonight humanized him. Basically I was happy to see characters behaving in ways I’d expect them to behave: Cassidy was skeptical and spiteful, which she should be, given how Sawyer’s actions looked from her perspective. Roger was worried and remorseful for his parenting, as any dad would be with a son near death.
And Jen and I agree that the conversations about time travel between Hurley and Miles were fantastic. They alone would’ve redeemed the episode, which fortunately didn’t need much help. The dialogue was clearly and wonderfully directed at us fans. I felt like I’ve been having the exact same conversation with friends each week. I loved the way Hurley triumphantly says, “So your theory is wrong!”
Only Jack, in Jen’s book, continues to frustrate and disappoint. Frankly, I can’t bring myself to type the things Jen said about him. Fortunately, both Kate and Juliet challenged him on his motives and his lack of initiative, and the hits landed so soundly that I’m confident that this shiftless “new Jack” is headed toward a reckoning. Hopefully one that will kickstart his character into the reluctant but effective leader and hero of Season 1.
Like in most character flashback episodes, though, there was limited forward motion in the “present.” But what we see is pivotal, and again, well played. We now see that it was the intervention of our dear 815 survivors that literally brought Ben to join the Others. And, in fact, Sawyer and Kate come to this chilling realization the moment Richard Alpert explains what lies ahead for the boy. And where does Alpert take young Ben? Why, to The Temple, of course.
And the 30 second scene in the “future” that closes out tonight’s episode was brilliant. Ben wakes up to see Locke watching him. Both Ben’s shock and Locke’s confidence were palpable. Things can only get better from here.
Notes & Notions
- So, Hurley asks why Ben doesn’t remember Sayid. And Alpert later explains Ben will forget everything. I guess that’s the official answer to one of the biggest questions out there, but it’s not really satisfying. It was a lot more fun thinking Ben always knew Sayid shot him.
- A listener recently praised how much the actors on “LOST” convey, merely through their faces. I felt that this week. In Evangeline Lilly’s performance, of course, but also in Elizabeth Mitchell’s scenes as well. Her confrontation with Jack, for one, but especially when she realizes just who could help young Ben.
- Locations: Cassidy’s house is on Kuhana Place in Waipahu. Interestingly, I know the nephew of the couple that live there. Having 75 people swarming your home over several days is not as fun as it sounds. The supermarket was Times Supermarket on S. King Street. Interestingly, they had put up a “Tim’s Supermarket” sign up and filmed some exterior shots, so I guess they cut those out.
- Music: Kate continues to affirm that Patsy Cline is her leitmotif. (So Jen says. I had to look it up.) And once again, “Catch a Falling Star” reappears. That song has inexplicably followed Aaron from before the day he was born.
Please comment below, e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com, or leave a voicemail on the LostLine at (808) 356-0127.
The only mother or family of any kind a child has ever known abruptly leaving on what she only hours before considered a fool’s errand? I’m not sure I would describe that as “noble.”
I’m not saying Kate didn’t experience some guilt and doubt about what she had done, but just consider how adamant she was about not going. With good reason I might add if you take a practical point of view. We didn’t see anything approaching the necessary magnitude to make her completely reverse herself in so short a time.
I’ll tell you what’s really underlying my frustration with this episode. This was almost the last chance to portray any significance Aaron might have had. Claire’s entire storyline the first couple of seasons was built into this larger than life thing about how “we would all pay the price” if Aaron were raised by another with the dire warnings from the psychic and such. Was that all just a dead end?
Note the almost: I still have count-to-five, Hurley hope.
The temple is more Southeast Asian in appearance, like Angkor Wat in Cambodia. I mentioned this a few episodes back about how this might reflect a confluence of all ancient cultures that were then dispersed around the world in pieces after a natural catastrophe. Comparable to the story of Atlantis, another mythical island.
Not a great K-fan. Only because she gets an unfair amount of face time, BUT E. Lilly did some of her best acting in the series last night. Hey, sound editor — I’m tired of the over-emotional violins every time I see Kate.
Dude, I loved Hurley checking his hand to see if he was slowly fading away.
The personalities of most of the characters are morphing. Intended or not.
I don’t know why Sawyer is so scared of Dharma folks. They’re not what I envisioned at all; they’re just loudmouth nerds who would respect a good ass-kickin’ from Sayid, Sawyer and Jin.
The lighting on Locke’s face (next week’s teaser) was classic. How many episodes are left this season?
I was hoping for more from this episode, I honestly wished they
killed off little ben and created a paradox it would have been great
for the story line. Rather he gets a second chance with richard and
the hostiles…All i know is I’m a Sayid fan and I want to know where
he went and I hope he has more air time in the future. How did he
get out of the compound if he didn’t have the codes to the gates?
where is he living? these are some questions I hope the writers will
share with us in the future. Keep up the good work and I love the
podcast…
In Lostipedia, this is listed under bloopers:
“In “He’s Our You,” Ben’s wound was on the left side of his chest, seemingly where his heart would be located. In this episode, however, his wound is on the right side of his chest.”
I think it was sort of cheat. In “He’s Our You,” Ben is clearly shot right through the heart, something you would expect from a crack shot like Sayid. But switching it this week to the right side, made it a wound that was survivable. I’m not sure it was a continuity error, I think the producers are messing with us.
I thought the epidsode sounded forced and like they were rushing to answer questions. The convo between Miles and Hurley sounded like a Q and A between the writers and fans.
Also, did they get lazy on what Kate did with Aaron? She sounded so dramatic with Jack when she said don’t ever ask what happened to Aaron. What she did was indeed selfless, but expected. What better place to take him to than his grandmother.
We were wondering if the A team writers were already taking a break!
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY RYAN AND JEN! HERE’S TO MANY MORE ANNIVERSARIES AND PODCASTS. WE APPRECIATE AND LOVE ALL OF THE WORK YOU PUT INTO YOUR REVIEWS AND PODCASTS. MAHALO!
I loved that it was likely that Miles was trying to explain to Hurley what Daniel had evidently explained to him – but unlike physicist Daniel, didn’t have the ability to convey such a complex idea…. reminding us of the statement made by Daniel right before Sawyer slapped him: “To try to explain this to a quantum physicist would be hard….”
Jorge continued to represent us fans with Hurley’s dialogue, and that is part of why we love the actor and the character.
It’s becoming more and more clear that Richard has probably been on the island the longest, and understands the ‘natural workings’ of the island better than anyone. And his line – “I don’t report to them” – shows just what a powerful person he is. I think, however, where he is befuddled is regarding the man-made creations (e.g. donkey wheel and it’s time traveling properties, hydrogen bomb and what to do with it, immigrants to the island and how to deal with them and their plans). I am strongly hoping that eventually they show Richard’s backstory – actually, I think that will perhaps be near or at the series finale, when we can see the island’s time line in its entirety through Ageless Richard’s eyes. That would be amazing.
I hate Kate
I hate being a Canadian even more
Why are they cutting our programs before they finish
We missed the last 2-3 minutes i.e. RA going to the Temple and Ben waking up to John No previews too arrgghhh !”/$%?&*#
At least we have a better banking system….
There were far too many snakes to swallow in this episode
How the hell can Kate have such a strong reaction on the dock and change (shift) her mind so diametrally a few hours later ?
Because she feels she would be a bad mother? Because of Cassidy ?
I am just not buying this
Then why would she (and Juliet) suddenly find it soooo important to save Ben ?
I also have a hard time believing Jack would not be tempted by the challenge to fix Ben
There is no manipulation this time…
By the way RA said that Ben «will forget this» not everything in his past
Hurley and Miles were really into it
Now I ask you
The others are taking only a few minutes to detect Kate & Sawier
One would think that they would have already detected Said escaping and acted to capture him
Why leave this part out ?
to Nels: maybe in 1977 the Smoke monster was contained then released during the incident?
to Chris: I’m sure by now her helping with Ethan’s birth has come out.
But what mystifies me is why such an operation doesn’t have better medical staff to begin with.
too many great comments above. I will mention a few of those I agree with: bevans, Bob, Kristen and TVSciFi – on both posts
I saw a consistency in Jack not wanting to save young Ben in the same way that he didn’t want to enter the numbers.
I loved the part where Hurley said, “I’m just waiting for my hand to disappear.”
Kate’s singing to Aaron was beautiful and it gave me chills. I have always liked Kate so I was looking forward to an episode like this one. I look back and think about how much she was seen spending time with Claire, and quite a lot even after she helped deliver Aaron. Knowing that Claire disappeared and that she couldn’t go back for her without missing the chance to leave on the helicopter has probably been one of the unsaid regrets for Kate as a character. Haunted by Claire’s brief appearance and her words would leave a lasting, nagging voice in her head to do only what is right for Aaron. It is completely logical that she would want the grandmother to take care of him until she can find Claire and bring her back for him and for Claire’s mother. Kate saying she lied because “she needed Aaron”, to me she needed him because she was without any solid family to call her own before she crashed on the island. She had no one to greet her when she returned. Having Aaron was a way to make a fresh start and feel a sense of responsibility towards someone other than herself upon returning. She also felt she owed it to Claire to take care of him.
I also loved the subtle hesitation in the way Kate answered, “No” when Roger Linus asked if she had kids.
The previews for next week, as usual, get my mind spinning. Without saying much, I can only predict we’ll see Smokey and Ben in a scene together.
I seem to have a pretty strong love/hate relationship going on with last night’s episode. The parts I liked – I really, really liked. The parts I didn’t like – I HATED!
Let’s start with what I didn’t like.
I really did not like the time travel conversation between Hurley and Miles. The time travel conversation in itself was humorous (I love Hurley), but it felt misplaced and unrealistic. It was stuck in there so we, as the audience, would “catch up†with the rules the writers want us to be aware of. It felt placed like a bit of instruction for us (now follow along students) and not something for us to expand our understanding of the overall plotline. Maybe I felt like they were talking down to us or something. Even worse than the time travel stuff was Alpert’s horrible line when he and the hostiles are taking Ben into the Temple. He’ll not remember everything and he’ll be forever changed. Really??? Sorry, but that was a crap way to write off the questions we’ve all been pondering for so long. I suspend my belief in reality every week when I watch this show and am usually rewarded with great story telling. That bit was not great storytelling. It was a cheap band-aid fix for a big hole in the story line and I’m feeling very let down by it.
*sigh*
Those gripes aside, there were some really great things going on in this episode. I’m not a huge Kate fan, but I’m not a Kate-hater either. I’m pretty neutral and I was pretty moved by the goodbye scene with Aaron in the hotel room. Wow. I’m a mom and I could absolutely feel how ripped apart Kate must’ve felt at that moment. Tremendous! I agree with Ryan’s comment that this is really the first time you get a glimpse into how deeply attached Kate has become to Aaron and how hard it must be for her to leave him.
I don’t know how I feel about Carole Littleton though, and I love how it keeps me second guessing the ideas I have. I thought the revelation of her new grandson was met with a lot less emotion that I would have expected. She seemed strangely out of the moment – yes probably a bit awe struck at the idea that Aaron is her grandson and that Claire may still be alive. I also thought the scene missed a lot of anger from her – if someone had told me my daughter was still alive and “left behind†after she “disappeared†on the island I think I’d be a raging lunatic for a moment. How could you do that???!!! Where is she???!!! What the…???!!! Or something. Carole’s reaction is just a little flat and unnatural in my mind. So for me, being the eternal mistrusting soul that I am, I think perhaps there’s a little something off with Claire’s mom. I don’t know if I believe she’s somehow connected in Ben/Charles net of baddies. I don’t necessarily think Aaron is in any harm, especially thinking that Claire’s visage in Kate’s dream told her NOT to take him back. I don’t know what I think. So I’ll have to keep pondering those issues.
Jack/Juliet – Kate/Sawyer – I definitely think they are trying to set us up for more intertwined relationship stuff. I definitely see how even if old romances aren’t rekindled how they may start to play off of perceptions of who was together when to make rifts in the relationships we have going. For me personally, I do not trust that Juliet is just along for the ride. So I don’t necessarily see her and Sawyer together in a forever kind of way. Don’t know if I necessarily mean to say that I want to see a rekindled Sawyer/Kate pairing – but I definitely think that Kate and Sawyer were happier together than Jack and Kate. I think Kate and Jack caused each other a lot of pain and I do not see either of them getting past that in any way. I think Sawyer tries to talk himself out of the Kate relationship a lot (like last night when he says that what he’s doing for Ben, he’s doing for Juliet – I don’t buy that). But what do I think about Sawyers happiness? I do think he is more content with Juliet. But is being content the same as being truly happy?
I have to agree with Jen – Jack is a frustrating character right now! Though I do see why he is acting the way he is. He has no identity anymore – he’s not the fixer, not the leader, not the upstanding guy that everyone looks up to. He found that aspect of himself again by crashing the first time on the island, but lost it completely after he left. The person he most depended on to believe in him does not believe in him or really like him much anymore (Kate). When the person who should have faith in him and depend on him most is himself. Maybe when he realizes that he’ll be less frustrating. I think he’s stuck with who he is and what he needs to do. He’d pretty much become his father before returning to the island, and he can’t be very happy about that.
I loved the end with Locke! That was great!!! Locke is my favorite character, so I’m excited to see where he will lead us!
Mirepoix, I felt that when Kate lost Aaron and finally found him, it looked like Claire taking Aaron away. This reminded Kate that Claire is his true mother and should be with Aaron.
re: Richard – I always thought he was on the Black Rock and the original “hostiles” were all from the ship. He discovered the temple and it changed him and the crew.
I think the majority of us Lost fans have assumed that Sawyer’s motivation for jumping out of the helicopter was to give the Losties on the chopper (and especially Kate) a chance to get off the island — a selfless and sweet gesture.
When Cassidy suggested to Kate off-island that Sawyer’s actions were that of a coward, I was kind of shocked. As, I think, was Kate. But the more I thought about it, and then when I saw James’s reaction when Kate called him out on his cowardice, the more I think it’s true.
It’s also true that Sawyer and Kate have both done a lot of growing up in the past three years, and that’s why — although I hate to say it — I think they will end up together.
Good episode. Kate is redeeming herself slowly but surely.
Egyptian Heirarchy
Alot of questions have appeared about Richard’s role on the island.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion
On this page, it discusses many aspects of Egyptian Mythology, but specifically I will be referring to people and their heirarchy in this religion.
Richard – Priest – The pharaoh was Egypt’s intermediary with the gods, so in theory, priests merely acted on his behalf. (possibly Ben was a priest at one time too and didn’t follow the Ma’at).
Widmore and Elle – Great Chief – any foreign ruler, no matter how powerful, was simply called “great chief.”
Christian – Pharoh – Egyptians viewed kingship itself as a force of nature; thus, the pharaoh, or king of Egypt, was both human and divine. He therefore acted as intermediary between Egypt’s people and the gods.
The king was also associated with several specific deities. While alive, a pharaoh was identified with Horus, and given the title “Son of Ra.” The goddesses Isis, Hathor, and Mut were all seen as the mother of the pharaoh. A deceased king was viewed as fully divine, and identified with Osiris (the father of Horus) and with Ra.
Jacob – God – (Decesed Pharoh, for which the island is “his temple”).
The Island – Ma’at – Among humans, Ma’at meant that all people and all classes of society lived in harmony. The Egyptians considered any disruption of Ma’at inherently harmful, so all people were expected to behave in accordance with it.
The temple – The entire journey from the temple entrance to the sanctuary was seen as a journey from the human world to the divine realm; thus, the sanctuary was the most sacred part of the temple, and contained a shrine with the image of the temple’s god (Jacob). Access to the sanctuary was usually restricted to the pharaoh and the highest-ranking priests (Christian and Richard).
I’m not sure how the losties/surviving DHARMA people fit into this.
I’m thinking they were on “the list” and they were spared their lives (book of light possibly).
So as you can see, IF this is going towards the Egyptian theme, these people are following in accordince with this ancient lifestyle and Heirarchy.
~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~
Those horrible, horrible Black Holes….
Richard: After this procedure he will not remember any of this and
his “innocence” will forever be LOSt.
OMG what just happened? You mean to tell me that is the excuse they are
going to give Ben for being EVIL?
This is a lousy excuse (if you ask me).
A SERIOUS Black Hole in this story!!
So this Temple only generates EVIL people? Is that what we are to believe
that the others are? And look at the innocent people who got into their way:
1. U S army – Killed by the others.
2. Rousseau’s team – going into the Temple made them MURDERERS?
3. DHARMA – KIlled by the others.
4. Black Rock passengers – probably killed by the others.
5. The 815’rs that wasn’t on “the list” – most killed by the others.
So we come up with this equation?
Temple = MIND CONTROL?
~ THE Pemstar Inititave ~
This was an OK episode, but I must admit my frustration with the stirring of the “love quadrangle” pot last night. Jen, I know you’re with me on this one. Juliet walks in on Jack IN the shower to confront him? COME ON. Meanwhile, Sawyer goes running after Kate into the jungle? You know they’re going to wind up on some twisted path home that will test Sawyer’s loyalty to Juliet. The powers that be are setting the stage for more relationship turmoil. Apologies to the character-development “relationshippy” folks, but I’m in it for the sci-fi. Bring on Smokey next week!
The scene in which Sun whacks Ben with the paddle must be something happening “after” Locke welcomes Ben back to the land of the living.
We just need to wait and see the missing pieces: what type of interaction/conversation Ben and Locke have? What does he do after e regains cosciousness at the beach? How does he reach the other island to get to the temple? And my guess is w will see all that next week.
I don’t want to re-hash what so many people have posted, so I’ll just show my votes:
– Yes to Kate giving Aaron to his family and looking for his mama
– Yes to Jack waiting for guidance from the island and not having knee-jerk reactions
– Yes to LeFleur’s reaction about Clementine – good papa
– No to Ben will have no memory of the 316 re-crasher’s (just because his memory is gone, it does not mean he is incapable of new memories once he gets back to the DI and they are all still there. Plus, I am sure the fact that he was shot will be told to him. This is a very small community.)
Now for the Q’s:
1. If Widmore and Ellie are there, where are their kids who should have been born by 1977, Penny and Faraday?
2. Why does Ben look afraid of Locke? He’s killed him once before, granted after a few tries until one worked, but still, try, try again. That’s what Roger Linus would say.
3. What innocence is lost in return for Ben’s life? I suspect this is why Ben has so little compassion for everyone but Alex.
Theories:
-Ben still knows about the Losties around from his youth, they will still be there when he is mended by Richard and returned. Some parts of his history may not be told to him correctly, such as where he was born, etc., perhaps, but I think he’ll still know how to get around Dharmaville, and be reintroduced to his friends like Annie, and community members like LeFleur, Juliette, etc. Remember, when the Purge happened, he was in a DI uniform that said his name and “workman” so he is a mole when he returns.
– Young Faraday and Penny are on the island, but they are not the natural born children of Ellie and Charles. They are DI children that are stolen by the hostiles. I re-watched the scene on the vote to kill Sayid, and Amy stated that she feared for her child and all the children there. I still think she has other motives to have Sayid killed, but the rationale she made does not make sense unless the Hostiles have purposely targeted children, like they did after the crash of 815. Remember the scene of Ben and Annie in class when the hostiles attacked? His teacher, Olivia, grabbed a gun from the classroom. I doubt they have guns in every room on the DI compound, but having one in a school room makes me think children may be common targets by the hostiles.
OK, great responses everyone. The best posters are here.
Ryan and Jen, thanks for all you do!
I agree with many here that Ben forgetting the shooting incident will be a bit too much of a deus ex machina.
As for Ben’s reaction to Locke, I don’t trust it. I believe he acted shocked to see John alive, because that was the reaction he wanted Locke to *think* he was feeling. As always, I’m sure it’s just part of a longer manipulation.
I watched “one of us” right after this episode…. it was curious that the first character he meets from the plane in 2004 is Sayid. and then Jack & Locke – all people he’ll meet in his childhood on the island. Fascinating that at the end of the episode (which is sayid-centric just like the last one) Ben has that creepy, almost smiling look on his face – as if to say “NOW i’ve finally got you where I want you.”
Bill in Chicago: I agree with you!
Hey, Ryan and Jen. Thanks for all you do with the podcast.
I loved that Kate sort of redeemed herself in this episode by owning up to the fact that although she cares deeply for Aaron, he is not hers to keep. I was happy to see her confront Clare’s mom.
But what I really wanted to talk about was this:
I was rewatching “The Man Behind the Curtain” with the commentary track on and Damon and Carlton mentioned that Annie (Ben’s childhood friend) and Olivia (the blond school teacher) were to significantly factor in the “end game” for Lost. I know people have still been talking about and expecting a reappearance from Annie, but I haven’t heard anyone mentioning Olivia. Has anyone caught a glimpse of her in “darma-ville” in the recent episodes?
Furthermore, it has been assumed that she was Horace’s wife when she first appeared in season 3, but Horace is now with Amy…I’m wondering what happened, and if Horace’s question to Sawyer if “three years was long enough” to get over someone was really a question he was asking himself about Olivia.
Any thoughts?
Thanks dudes!
i have another theory about the others. this episode reminded me of harry potter when i saw young ben. in harry potter they have a prophecy as to who will overcome Lord Voldemort – i speculate that the Others have a prophecy that a man will come to the island and he will become their Leader, and they will know him by the fact that he is responsible for his fathers death & that he will have been healed via a miracle by the island. this feeds into why Richard et al defer to ben as their new leader in flashback S03E20 -Man Behind The Curtain.
also this theory covers why in S03E019- The Brig- when the Others become disallusioned by bens leadership, that they are excited by hearing that locke was healed from paralysis.so ben figures that he will see if locke will fulfil the other part of the prophecy(will Locke kill Cooper?), and Ben bets he can’t ,thats why he attempts to humilate lockes coup in front of everyone, consolidating Ben’s leadership in the process.
Ben tells the assembled cast of Others – [Locke’s] not the man we thought he was!
but my bet is that this seasons rattlesnake will be a the reveal of who Jacob is & i expect the gamechanger will be that Jacob is Jack !!
Jack fits my prophecy above – he’s morally responsible(if not necessarily physically responsible) for Christians death, also he was healed from his life threatening appendicitis in S04E10.this fits with shepherd family connection to jacobs cabin& maybe even Jack is short for Jacob!
I know this theory is a stretch, but i figure we’ll find out before end of this season.but i don’t see why else hide jacobs identity in shadow, unless it pays off with a big reveal later(similar to Denise Crosby emerging from the shadows in ST:TNG s04e26),
@Nando
The knick knack paddle whack must occur prior to the Locke/Ben meeting. Ben was making a break for the big island, got hit, and then wound up in the infirmary where Locke found him.
Why are Dharma people calling the position of “workman”, janitor?
That, it seems, would be an infraction of uniformity their socialist culture demands.
Christy from TX. I generally like your theory except for Faraday being a stolen DI child. The nosebleed in the beginning of the season were related to the length of time on the island and Faraday was one of the last to start bleeding so if what they told us earlier is true, then Faraday could not be a DI child. Of course the nosebleed thing at the beginning could just be a red herring…
A nagging thought… Several times this season Juliet has demonstrated an “inside baseball” level of Others Knowledge (speaks Latin, seems to know about Richard’s age, knows that the Hostiles will accept Ben, etc…). Go back to the Juliet on-Island backstory episode the one where Ben shows her Goodwin’s body. On to the day of the Oceanic 815 crash Juliet doesn’t appear to have any knowledge of the Others. And yet… She was judged and marked by Isabel leading you to think she was (with apologies to the Sopranos) a Dharma “made-man” (woman?). When did she acquire this knowledge? During the 108 days of prior to the turning of the frozen donkey wheel? I just have this nagging feeling that Juliet’s connection with the Other is more extensive than we suspect and will be revealed soon.
@Rey from Oly Wa,
That’s a good point, assuming his theory on the connection between time on the island and effects of time travel end up being having a cause/effect relationship. Then again, he may have handled the time travel better due to his past experience and knowledge regarding time travel and/or having a constant. Since they likely lived most of their life off the island I would expect if they were taken by hostiles it was usually soon after birth or arrival at the island. Anyway, it’s just a thought. I figure if I come up with about 150 theories, 2 or 3 might pan out. Even a broken clock is right twice a day!
@bevans, although I have not read any Harry Potter books (Shh! don’t tell, I get scared easily) I love the idea of the Others having a prophecy and a secret identity of their leader they are trying to solve.
One small hitch is that Jack could not be morally responsible for his father’s death, at least not by current moral standards in most societies, but do you know who else is? KATE! (Maybe she will have a miraculous recovery of her broken heart – wink, wink!)
@Bill – Let’s not forget that although socialist in some aspects there is a chain of command – military like structure and code. I am just surprised it isn’t “Workperson” in case a female should have an appropriate aptitude score for that position.
@Mark Belles – Juliette was recruited by and living among the Others when 815 crashed, I am confused why you state that on the day of the crash she did not appear to have inside knowledge of the Others? She was hosting a book club meeting with them.
Regarding Mr. Friendly – I hope we recognize some younger Others, what fun! Perhaps we can watch earlier seasons and spot an older version of Sayid, the one that crashed from 316 in 1977, got detained by the DI, escaped, and maybe joined the Others. Although I doubt he is considered “good” enough… but I can dream. I wonder if maybe he had to build and live in a little man-cave, maybe the one that Rousseau is eventually found living in by Sayid in 2004? Hmmm…..
Too many things to think about, too many tangents. Kleenex for my nosebleed, please!
Mark Belles,
I’m really confused by what you are saying about Juliet. She’d been on the island for much more than two years before the plane crash. To become fluent in Latin in that span of time is unusual, but not impossible. We also don’t know if she was picked to join the Others solely for her fertility skills, but I think she arrived without foreknowledge of them (no matter how much knowledge they had of her). Why do you think she arrived 108 days before the turning of the donkey wheel?
Rich in Cleveland said: “The only mother or family of any kind a child has ever known abruptly leaving on what she only hours before considered a fool’s errand? I’m not sure I would describe that as “noble.â€
I have to agree. I am not anti-Kate per se, I just feel like there were some huge wonky leaps in this episode and my belief just sorta fell through the cracks. It’s not the character’s fault or E. Lilly (never her, I think she is just so cute and really improving loads as an actress), I just don’t think the writers developed it in a believable way. I just don’t get her character’s motivations anymore. Save Ben? Find Claire? It all just seemed so last-minute improvised in order to give Kate some purpose
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paintergirl1 said:
I think so too. As Richard gave his long speech about what was gonna happen to Ben, a big GIMMEABREAK flashed in my mind. What happened to cool calm and mysterious Richard? His talk reminded me of Pierre Chang in the first episode of the season when he unnecessarily told the workman that whole schpiel about time travel. It was almost like Richard should have just stared straight into the camera and said it to us. COME ON!
Rich in Cleveland said: “The only mother or family of any kind a child has ever known abruptly leaving on what she only hours before considered a fool’s errand? I’m not sure I would describe that as “noble.â€
I have to agree. I am not anti-Kate per se, I just feel like there were some huge wonky leaps in this episode and my belief just sorta fell through the cracks. It’s not the character’s fault or E. Lilly (never her, I think she is just so cute and really improving loads as an actress), I just don’t think the writers developed it in a believable way. I just don’t get her character’s motivations anymore. Save Ben? Find Claire? It all just seemed so last-minute improvised in order to give Kate some purpose
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paintergirl1 said:
“I agree with many here that Ben forgetting the shooting incident will be a bit too much of a deus ex machina.”
I think so too. As Richard gave his long speech about what was gonna happen to Ben, a big GIMMEABREAK flashed in my mind. What happened to cool calm and mysterious Richard? His talk reminded me of Pierre Chang in the first episode of the season when he unnecessarily told the workman that whole schpiel about time travel. It was almost like Richard should have just stared straight into the camera and said it to us. COME ON!
Bill said:
“Hey, sound editor — I’m tired of the over-emotional violins every time I see Kate.”
OMG, AGREED! what in the world were those over the top John Williams heart-tugging strings! enough already.
Hi Ryan and Jen,
Happy happy anniversary! You guys ROCK!
A few more comments:
– I burst out laughing when Jack started into his “Are you telling me that…?” routine again, I feel like they make him say that every episode. He is becoming like some kinda humorous Jerry Seinfeld with his questions. That said, I LOVE the new Jack. The best way he can help himself and others is by NOT HELPING. Other people can shine when he backs off, and Kate can find new motivation rather than just “tagging along” with Jack (and stringing poor Jackie along). Sink or swim, she’ll have to do it on her own. Jack’s true purpose will become clear.
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Did it creep everyone out the way Juliet kept saying “fresh blood”? I am still leaning towards the side of thinking she fed Ben to The Others as a new recruit. Her smile creeps me out. Can’t Sawyer just go celibate or date one of the red shirts instead?
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Was anyone confused about Sawyer and Kate’s emotional moment at the fence while a 12-year old boy (who Kate claimed to care about) was bleeding to death in that VW bus? If they wanted me to believe that Kate actually cared about Ben, that scene really eroded all possibility. Seems she was just looking for brownie points and attention as usual.
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Also why were the Others so red clay-dusty (even usually steam-cleaned, buffed, and waxed Richard)? are they working on something? digging or??
I’m curious whether Christian will be there in the temple.
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This episode was OK, but I hope next week is more action and less filler!
Another great Lost epi. I love the simple scenes in Lost the most. Loved it when Sawyer called Kate “Freckles” again, that was so cute of him. and when Juliet was watching Jack get out of the shower but never looking down, that was so funny. The scene when Kate is leaving Aaron had me in tears also, this was Kate’s best epi on Lost. Best scene was watching the Famous Smirk of Locke at the end. Lost just Rocks !!!
Wow…I waited too long to get to the boards and y’all have said it all! I tried to read all the posts and skimmed through most of them. First, to the person who thinks Oldham is Jack’s grandpa, that is a good thought, but I think Oldham is already pretty old in 1977, so he would be very very old in 2007. I think Jack’s grandpa is there somewhere, he may even turn out to be Jacob…who knows.
Richard Alpert: In the popup episode of Namaste he is described as an “advisor” to the Hostiles. Somehow he is one of them, yet not one of them. They have a hierarchy, headed apparantly by Ellie and Charles W., but RA somehow supercededs their authority.
As RA pauses at the door of the Temple with the dying boy-Ben in his arms I totally expected to see him morph into Smokey! That would hve been awesome!
Loved how they fleshed out Roger Linus. Was that a spark I saw in his eyes for Kate? Now that would be a twist!
Finally, about Jack. At first I was frustrated with his refusal to help Juliet, but then I realized he is determined not to mess it up “this time” and let the Island or Fate guide his steps. He knows Ben lives. He doesn’t have to jump in and help…the outcome will be the same whether he helps or not, and as it turns out, his decision is the right one. Had he behaved like the Old Jack, Ben never would have gotten to the Hostiles, which is what I think was supposed to happen.
It reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld when George Costanza discovers that when he does the exact OPPOSITE of what he usually does, life goes better for him.
I loved this episode of Lost as much as every other, because I love Lost!
However, the reception that Sawyer & Juliet have given Jack, Kate & Hurley has bugged me since their return to the island. The former waited 3 years for Locke to return with the latter, to SAVE them. Just because Locke did not make it back with Jack, Kate, & Hurley would not make them less welcome. I understand their life has been fairly pleasant in Dharmaville, especially for Sawyer and Julie. who for the first time have apparently found “real” love. I understand they need to use discretion, but I expected some private catch-up conversations between these “old friends”, as well as some mutual planning… instead they are far too adversarial! THANK goodness this issue seemed to be improving by the end of the episode when we saw Sawyer come out to help Kate with Ben. I am looking forward to seeing the Losties work together in their dealings with Dharma & the others! Of course that does not mean I will not continue to enjoy the internal conflict between Jack & Sawyer, and Kate & Juliet!
Ps I hate that so many of this podcast viewing audience hate EL. I love Evangeline Lilly as an actress and she was especially great in this episode! I have just found that the Kate character went from being a strong, interesting character to being a rather wishy washy one… it was nice to see the “old” strong Kate reappear at the end of this episode.
Likewise, Matthew Fox, a great actor! But his character goes from strong and in control to a weak wimp on a regular basis… making it hard for me like “Jack”. Sawyer, on the other hand, just keeps getting “better” in every way!!!!
i love the parallels – jack pretending not to be a doctor and sayid pretending not to be a killer. Wonder how that will work out for Jack. My guess is by season end he is with pistol in hand making dumb decisions and shooting things. I hope not. I also was wondering if there is a screenshot from season 3 of Ben’s chest. Wouldn’t there be a bullet wound visible when Jack is operating on him?
What is the deal with all these Jack haters?? Why doesn’t any1 see it his way? Say you were Jewish. If you went back in time and saw a 10 yr old Adolf Hitler, would you save him? Ben similarly will be responsible for committing genocide in the years to come. I for one was more fed up with the efforts to save Ben. Kate and Juliet are more responsible for Ben’s transformation than Jack.
I think Jack’s subdued nature is perfectly understandable. For the last 4 seasons it seemed every time he has tried to lead, there is an unexplainable/supernatural twist. Remember this is a guy who was seconds away from suicide; was addicted to narcotics; feels responsible for many lives lost and decisions made; and has a haunting dead or not-so-dead father. Every step of the way Jack’s leadership was questioned, and then when he challenged Sawyer upon returning to the island he was once again criticised. Jack isn’t a wimp, he just doesn’t see the point in controlling things like before. With the experiences on and off the island he is no longer a man of science, but a man of faith.
How is it that Ethan survives the purge? Think about this:
In a earlier post I questioned why Amy and Paul were picnicing outside
the Sonic fence. The answer is…..Amy is a SPY! Why else would she break
“the truce”? Try this on for size:
1. Amy, particularly in her role as wife to Horace, is privy to most of
the dark secrets of the DI.
2. All the evidence points to the others having spies inside Dharma
(Including Ben).
3. She learns of Horace’s intent to wipe out the others.
4. Tells Widmore who then acts first and wipes out the DI with poison gas.
5. Amy escapes the purge and goes back to her “home” with Ethan.
6. I do think Paul was an other- as soon as horace asked amy for the body I was convinced.
7. This also explain why she called for Sayid’s death – she alone if she’s a spy among
the Dharmites knows that Sayid is NOT an Other…
In my opinion, Paul has been “reincarnated and is waiting for Amy with
the others.
There is something fishy about Amy, mark my words!
Also remember that an anagram for Ethan Rom is OTHER MAN 🙂
Like many others I was underwhelmed by this episode. It seemed that everything Kate did in the flashbacks we either already knew or had guessed so there was nothing being revealed. The island story was basically “Ben’s not dead, needs help, Jack won’t help, Alpert will” and didn’t really move things along.
The only thing I got out of it really was the point that Ellie and Charles are in charge of the others but Alpert is willing to go behind their backs. Ben will, oh so conveniently, forget about being shot by Sayid and, as predicted, Aaron was left with his granny.
On the Kate story, I am not at all convinced that Kate has changed. I got the impression she was lying about going back to find Claire and is, in fact, running away from her responsibility after realising she isn’t cut out to be a mum. She was still hoping to get back with Sawyer so the realisation that he is happy with Juliette hurts.
I actually thought for a moment in that supermarket scene that Aaron had ceased to have ever existed which would have been a great game changer (if contrary to the time rules of Lost) but no, he had just wandered off as toddlers do. I think that was the point at which Kate realised she needed to let him go.
Anyway, slow episode, easily the least interesting of season 5 but at least it had that light moment with Hurley and Miles basically ramming the Lost rules of time travel down our throats again with Hugo playing the dense viewer who can’t get past Back to the Future style multiple realities. Comedy genius.
I love the transition that Jack has now made to a “Man of Faith”. He has abandoned the science that he once clung to, by refusing to operate on young Ben, and is now a believer in destiny. I found his remarks about how he was “supposed” to come back to the Island, even though it didn’t make sense even to him to be especially chilling.
Audiences may not like this seemingly more fickle, wimpy Jack, but I think it his scene with Juliet this past episode was incredibly powerful in conveying his full transition from the science-based Jack of Seasons 1-4 to a more Locke-like “Man of Faith” that the Island has made him become. I think out of all the characters on this show, Jack has made the most compelling and intriguing character shift.
I wonder if the island will be as kind to Ben as it was to Eko…remember, Eko didn’t have a choice about who he became. His destiny was writ the moment he shot that old man. Ben, likewise, will have the same argument on his side. He didn’t have a choice, at least if Richard is to be believed and he doesn’t remember anything.
Also, I just can’t defend Jack and I don’t understand any argument to support him. I am not a jack hater, but I don’t think he is or has done anything constructive since season 3. The last best thing he did was save Ben from dying so that Kate and Sawyer could get away. Other than that he has shown to be weak and submissive and reactionary. His solution to every conflict is to kill it, even in this episode. HE has a chance to save a child who has yet to become the monster he will become; and now we find out, at least presumably, that he becomes this monster because Jack didn’t save him, the island did. Jack is presented with a chance to really change his character from selfish-reactionary-pretending-to-be-reluctant-and-accepting-to-perhaps-the-greatest-hero-of-the-island (saving a young ben and preventing him from becoming an other) to completely dropping the ball and making yet another selfish decision that serves only his best interests and no one else. As Juliette said, they didn’t need saving…something Jack just doesn’t seem to hear yet he always assumes the opposite. Man of faith? Not yet. He is still thinking with that big brain and it will haunt them again with Ben being saved by the Island.
I can’t stand what they’ve done to Jack’s character. In stark contrast to the virtuous hero who I’ll admit reacted first, Jack now has no moral compass and seems willing to let the world do its worst while he stands idly by. That’s not belief, it’s resignation. Locke epitomizes faith, but even he tries to take what action he can in the service of a higher calling. I’ve always thought reason was a more reliable basis for action anyway and it pains me to see Jack so thoroughly abandon it. It’s fitting Jack should be in the lowest caste because that’s about all he’s worth right now.
I didn’t care much for this episode. I’d put it as my second to least favorite just above 316. I did like the fact that Kate’s breakdown came from simple fact of her returning Aaron to his real family. Things like that make this show impossible to predict because we always look for those grand scheme ideas when it’s something obvious.
But one thing I cannot understand at all is how Sawyer and Kate can just hand Ben over to Alpert without first talking to Roger Linus. Neither of them knew Roger was abusive and Kate actually felt sympathy for him in the Infirmary. Especially with Kate’s fear that Aaron would be “taken,” how could she do that to somebody else’s child? I don’t get it.
I actually sympathize with Jack. He’s held to a different standard than everyone else. If Sawyer had refused to save young Ben I don’t think you’d see the same kinds of comments being made about him.
Jack’s whole dynamic is that he is always trying to save people. He’s constantly cristicized for it but then the same people who criticize him turn around and ask him to step in and save the day.
In the midst of trying to get past his savior complex he’s presented with young dying Ben, and a long explanation that regardless of what anyone does, Ben can’t die anyway because he’s alive in the future. I think that explains his decision not to save someone he hates, again.
Sawyer wanted to make him a janitor, but then when it suits Sawyer’s purpose he expects Jack to step into a phone booth and re-emerge as a spinal surgeon.
Russell from California- That is a great point about them handing Ben over without consulting Roger. I never even thought of that. There were a couple loose ends in this episode. They didn’t show us the conversation where Kate explains to Cassidy how she knew Sawyer and what happened to him. And when Kate goes back right after losing Aaron in the store and Clementine calls her Auntie Kate… I guess that was to show us that Kate has been there many times and has spent a lot of time with them. How did Jack know nothing about it? How did Kate go to Albuquerque all those times without Jack knowing. Furthermore, how did she go to Albuquerque all those times when she wasn’t supposed to leave California?
Ben still might know that Sayid shot him. As I recall all Richard said was, “He isn’t going to remember any of this.” Since we don’t know specifically what he was referring to as “this” it is premature to say that he won’t remember being shot by Sayid. Richard may mean Ben won’t remember being brought to the Temple and healed in that way. For all we know Richard could heal him and then send him back to the DI camp where he continues to grow up with DI and the 1977 Losties. Ben may remember getting shot by Sayid but think he was helped by Juliette because what he doesn’t remember is Kate and Sawyer taking him to the temple.
Lost is beginning to feel it’s growing pains.
It is a well known fact that Damon and company did figure out the “end game” until somewhere inbetween years 2-3, and even the most meticulous genius cannot write backwards to make it work out seamlessly.
The moment they introduced time travel they put themselves under the narrative guillotine. They are doing a fine job juggling all of the mythological elements, but the conversation between Hurley and Miles over the time paradoxes was not refreshing, but exasperating, further proof of what the audience is thinking: this is not the logical, scientifically grounded mythology the producers promised us years ago.
Do not think me a traitor. I am a die-hard fan, but i cannot help but think Sawyer and Kate are no longer consistent with who they were only seasons ago.
Worse, Jack has devolved in passive fly on the wall, and other characters — Claire comes to mind — have exited in very unsatisfying ways.
It used to be a joke among Damon and Carleton that Lost would soon be about zombies — the infamous season seven. But now I think that this joke is strangely closer to the truth than any other theory. I imagine Richard carrying Ben to something akin to Pet Cemetery in the last episode.
When did Lost become about ghosts, time travel, and the silly antagonism of Ben and Widmore?
Do you remember there was once a character named Hanso? That there were mysterious numbers that designated the end of the world? That there were a powerful chemistry between Jack and Kate that writers since destroyed?
If you want to know one concrete example of how the Lost writers are truly Lost, look no further than the character of Juliet, or the poorly executed “freighties.” Who the f*** is Charlotte?
It’s season five, and you are going to introduce yet more characters? Really? You think that is a good idea to focus on Ethan’s mom at this point instead of Desmond?
Take me back to that original Lost. To that wonderful, frightening world where I thought the island was much more mysterious. And cool.
Is Ben really that manipulative and omniscient, or is he a crutch for the writers when they need to write backwards to make lines connect?
I think Lost peaked in the season two finale, which I think is among the best two hours of television. Period.
Note: you will not see Stephen King publicly lauding Lost anymore in the press. Because I think he feels the same way.
Lost is now officially lost.
I hope they come back.
I read through most of these and didn’t see this mentioned, but credit to anyone else if they did. I, like some others, am wondering aboiut Penny. If Charles Widmore is still on the island then Penny should be born already. Does that mean she is there with Widmore? Also someone above mentioned that Penny may be a Dharma Initiative child that was taken by the hostiles and raised by Widmore. I’m pretty sure that the ages don’t work out, but what if Penny was really Annie? The friend of Ben’s (that seemed younger then him) who gave him the doll. If so that would make for an interesting confrontation between Ben and Penny that we all assume is coming next episode in a flashback.