And keep in mind we are dealing with things occurring and happening in present time and past tense. HOWEVER, until something happens to someone in the past the future version does not know about these events.

For example Desmond did not know about finding Daniels mother, until Daniel told Desmond to go look for his mother, then at that IMMEDIATE moment the memory was created and then guess what Desmond awakes with a memory!

Therefore, until Sayid shot Ben, Ben had no recollection of it, now going forward I am sure Ben will know what happened to him in the past.

If Jack stays true to character he is not going to HELP Ben, so I believe Juliet may be the one to save him and that is where the “you look so much like her” comment comes in.

REMEMBER they were told EVERYONE needed to come back for everything to return to normal or something would happen which was unknown. That includes Walt and Aaron. So, All of them not returning created this unknown situation that is currently evolving.

Also, did anyone think Sayid may dislike Ben, because he may have found out that maybe Ben is truly behind his wife’s murder.

No. If Ben dies as a child, he does not live to do all those things. Ben cannot and will not die at this point.

“Why is Kate back? Here’s my bet. Because Ben came to her off island, and explained that she had to get involved, because she needed to be on the island or something very bad would happen (possibly to Aaron). Perhaps he straight out tells her “you need to go back and make sure I don’t die” —Aaron.

This is certainly along the lines of what I’m hoping for, something closer to the central mythology than mere blackmail or, even worse, a base appeal to toy around with the paralovagram. Kudos to whoever authored that term though.

“This is making me feel more strongly about my theory that the universe is trying to recreate a series of events that happened (or will happen.. the ‘incident?’) that dislodged the island from normal time/space…” —Pete

I like to call this “the master scene” that all the repetitions of situations and language that regularly occur reflect in broken fragments, but that will one day come together to some unknown effect. I think it may reveal the truth more than cause an “incident” to happen.

“Anyone mention that Sayid might have still been under the influence of the mind altering drug when he shot Ben?”—Keith UK

Side effects? I’ll have to review, but it does seem now that the interrogation scene might have been Sayid’s moment of crisis in which he determines his purpose and course of action. For some reason though, I think he may soon be receiving visitors as a consequence instead.

“All of this talk about Ben having these experiences and knowing who’ll be going back in time and working towards that goal leaves out a very important element. How DOES Ben know what to do? Growing up knowing a certain man shot you in your youth and then meeting him when you grow up doesn’t tell you how to get that guy to go back in time and shoot you.—Michael 281

Definitely. Future Ben would have had to have visited present Ben or he would have had to cycle through this loop many times while retaining his memory.

On retaining memory: Faraday’s card trick still bothers me. I’m holding to the theory that the present is in a state of flux. Was he trying to recall a past or a properly ordered reality with this test? The cards keep changing just as the picture on the box kept changing. We saw Faraday disturbed when he saw the news footage of 815 as if somewhere in his brain he had a memory of what happened. We also have the “Charlotte rule” whereby memories of the past that have not yet been created by the flashers can still be recalled. So is this what’s going on with the card trick? The other possibility is the study of parapsychology referenced in one of the DI orientation videos.

“At first I thought young Ben was shot dead. Then I remembered it wasn’t raining.”—Steve. Good call.

Well that has put a hole in your paradox theory hasn’t it? Young Ben said that he wanted to join the hostiles so I think that he gets found by them, is somehow ‘mended’ and then begins his Others -v- Dharma life.

That would work perfectly for him killing his own father in the van also.

I can’t believe how many things are tying back to series 1,2,3&4 with the runway, 4 toe’d statue.

Re: Kate’s reason for going back, could it be as simple as Ben does get cusody of Aaron and makes Kate go back to the island in order for her to get him back?

Kind of a weird symmetry, since Penny would be as much Widmore’s daughter (not) as Alex was Ben’s….Somewhere Widmore and Hawking split, Widmore got Penny and Eloise got Daniel, but Widmore must have been paying support (as evidenced by his paying for the care of the women who went crazy during the time research). Note we’ve never seen/heard of Daniel’s father or Penny’s mother…

Sawyer will be so bummed to find out his future son is dweebish.

They’ll come back when they have something to add to the story, or when they’re needed. I’m sure the writers haven’t forgotten them.

Ben is absolutely not dead. This incident (Ben not dying) will prove once and for all that “Whatever Happened Happened” and it cannot be changed. I do think this sets up a self-contained cycle; as Nate in Ohio succinctly describes it: “Sayid shoots Ben, which causes him to turn evil and torture the losties and manipulate Sayid into killing Widmore’s associates, which causes Sayid to want to kill little Ben.” I don’t consider this a paradox, though — merely a loop that we will undoubtedly see a lot more of. This seems to me to be within the “rules”.

I think the reason Sayid is so out-of-his-mind angry at Ben is that he found out (as many of us suspected) that Ben was responsible for Nadia’s death, and then used that death to lead Sayid on a world-wide killing spree.

And of course, to answer some of the questions around here, Ben totally recognized Sayid when he saw him in Season 2. He probably expected the plane crash, and knew those people he’d seen before. He may have had a crush on Juliet before.

-Widmore knows her well, since he has her information at the ready to give it to Desmond in “Jughead”
- Daniel recognizes her as someone familiar in “Jughead”, and Eloise is his mother (as well as his former lab rat)
- In “316″, when they are in Eloise’s underground pendulum lair there is a photo marked “9/23/54 – U.S. Army – OP 264- Top Secret – Eyes Only”(this corresponds with the same time that Ellie was on the island)

I just don’t think names get repeated like that on this show for no reason. I think one of the rare instances where a name was repeated without any real significance was with the name Charlotte. The first Charlotte we met was when Eko was in Australia (episode “?”, season 2) and he went to investigate a suspicious religious occurrence (a girl named Charlotte — daughter of Claire’s psychic –drowned to death and then came back to life). In Season 4, we then get (our now dear departed ) Charlotte Staples Lewis.

- Why didn’t Ilana just arrest Sayeed when she saw him? Di she really just want a free meal?
- I am on the side of people who don’t trust Amy and I think Ethan joined the hostiles with his mother. She knew Sayeed wasn’t a Hostile but the longer they kept him alive the more likely he could pose a threat to the Hostiles by sharing secrets of the island with unknowing Dharmites.
-How did Sayeed know he would get a chance to kill Ben?
-Where does Sayeed think he’s gonna go now that he’s escaped.
-Has anyone mentioned Ms. Hawking or anything to the non O6-ies?
-Juliet’s smile makes me mistrust her, I think it is just the character though…
-Why aren’t any of the Dharmalites particularly peace-loving? I thought they were supposed to be hippies…
-At what point did Ben go from needing glasses all the time to only needing them to read?

As I thought about “he walks among us…”, there was another great instance of the recurring theme of alienation/otherness in Sayid’s flashback. The elder brother must remain “outside” of the community and his father’s affections until he can accomplish his rite of passage, just as Locke remained on the outside until he proved he could rid himself of that most potent symbol of past failures, his father. I wonder if it matters that Locke cheated a bit by having Sawyer do his dirty work for him.

One other comment: young Ben knocked it out of the park this episode. No matter how you feel toward Ben, you had to feel tremendous sympathy for him throughout and especially when Sayid shot him for theoretical crimes which he has yet to commit. I’ll bet he vowed to never be the one caught by surprise from that moment on.

Defend the island.

When Ben went to see Widmore did he say that he would kill “Penny” or his “daughter”?

Ben is not dead. He’s just really ticked off now.

I still believe that the Ben that will be involved in the purge is the older Ben coming back in time
History has shown that poeple can come back to before they were born (Locke)
If we ever see the injured Ben in 2007 recuperate, we can bet that he will go into this journey back in time
Now that he is dead in 1977, he can go back to sometime past that point in time

But on the other hand, all of you who think that he will be cured by Jack have a great hunch too

The other comment I have is maybe we understand Jack’s tattoo better now: “He walks among us but is not one of us.” Hmm, definitely makes more sense now considering his time travel back to 1977 Dharma times!

I think one of Kate’s reasons for coming back to the Island is to tell Sawyer about his daughter. I found it strange, considering it was the last thing he said to her (we assume) before bailing out of the helicopter, that he never asked Kate about Clementine during their awkward little encounter at the motor pool shed, nor did Kate offer him any info.

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/63b6a635bb91651b6bce3d833f7d2e6a

Here are my thoughts after watching He’s Our You…

Amy – I agree with Nels, she is definitely suspicious! I said last week that I thought she was a hostile sympathizer and now I’m sure about it from watching her reaction to “the vote” this week. She does not recognize Sayid as a hostile and if she was able to talk or get any info from a hostile source who could confirm that he was definitely NOT from their camp then she would be very freaked out by his presence and definitely want him out of the way. Afterall, she needs to protect her own secret identity (and now also protect her new baby). I’m also thinking that Horace is a hostile sympathizer too. Don’t know if he was originally an infiltrator, or if he becomes sympathetic due to his love for Amy. If you can re-watch the vote scene and think of that scene from the perspective of Horace and Amy as hostile-oriented people and see if you don’t agree!

Ben/Sayid — I think Ben *knew* he needed to be shot by Sayid outside of Dharmaville so that he would be found and saved by the hostile camp. This was the thing that allows him to officially move into hostile territory. That is why Ben worked so hard to get Sayid to come back.

Ethan — I think he also knows he has to recruit Juliet later in life because she is the only reason he is alive. He knows it is Juliet who is responsible for his being born and his mom Amy not dying during childbirth.

Ben – *if* Ben is dead due to Sayid’s shooting, maybe this is what makes ’07 Ben unconscious on the cot after the Aijira plane crash – not the oar to the head. Maybe he can not be conscious in current time if his younger self is not alive. Don’t know if I altogether buy that theory, but I felt I had to shout it out!

Can’t wait for the podcast! Keep those great theories flying!

Tammy

We are not told what Oldham uses to gain the truth, but I assume it was sodium pentothal.

Seeing some above comments mentioning the Carlos Castenada book, A Separate Reality, I have a hunch there’s some allusion to using plants (something found in the jungle?), perhaps during a ceremony, for transcending to an alternate state of consciousness. It could be something foreshadowing for the future. We have already seen on the show the time when Boone was able to “see” after Locke drugged him? And we’ve seen a character wake up but they’re not awake, they’re actually dreaming, for example, Michael sees Libby in the hospital; Kate sees Claire in Aaron’s room. Jack, Hurley, Juliet, Kate, Eko and Shannon have all seen someone or something while in the jungle that no one else could see and then have these moments of clarity about what they’ve seen because it is something from their past. It’ll be interesting if they intend to use “states of consciousness” in upcoming episodes.

But now things have changed a little bit because she sees that Sawyer’s with Juliet, and jealousy is a green-eyed smoke monster.

Another random thought: If the O6 never left, which Ben thought they were dead anyway since he knew the freighter blew up when Keamy died, then he probably still would have left the island with the donkey wheel. His first order of business was to see Widmore and tell him he changed the rules and that now Penny would meet the same fate as Alex. If Ben would have left regardless of the O6 leaving, all the Losties would have jumped through time on the island together until someone else turned the wheel, right? So maybe their leaving the island was inconsequential and they had to return to the island to course correct events.
If I remember correctly Richard Alpert, Widmore, Ben, and Miss Hawking all told Locke that the O6 must return, so they must all remember them from the island in the 70′s.
Nosebleeds are still happening here in TX. Please someone put that wheel back on it’s axis.

@Zhami: Great points. The third paragraph especially seems like it is spot on. And I agree with you that in the end, we will all see Ben was doing everything for good.

I actually have this theory that when Dharma learns about the O6, they try to capture them or kill them and the purge could be the Others’ taking a stand to save them.

@Steven in Bathurst: I agree that yes, the Island is not done with Ben so he will be saved in one way or another.

@Phil R: I like your idea about Jack and Juliet pairing to save the boy and that creating a a shift in the dynamic of four of them.

Hey Ryan and Jen, I got the perfect term for the Jack/Juliet/Sawyer/Kate thing by the way: Paralovagram.

The McFly rule DOES apply (which contradicts Daniel’s notion that “whatever happened will happen,” which Daniel himself disproved when he “gave” Desmond a new memory by interacting with him in Desmond’s past). So if Sayid killed the young Ben, he will be changing the chain of events therein after. Which brings me to the supposedly upcoming Purge (as a product of Dharma-Hostiles tensions):

The presence of Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Jin, and now Hurley, Kate, and Jack has already changed the Dharma-Hostile dynamics (don’t forget that bomb that Sawyer dropped on Richard on their first night). On the OTHER hand, had Sawyer et al not come along, then Amy would not have given birth to Ethan (who clearly was supposed to have survive the Purge and later harass our Oceanic 815 survivors). If Ben is dead, it could be argued the Purge would happen anyway (just no patricide and no Dharma Bus for Hurley to discover later). And remember what Dharmaville looked like in Frank and Sun’s future. Bottom line, the dynamics have changed. Or if you prefer, “Everything’s going to change. Have a cluckity cluck-cluck day, Hugo.”

The problem I have with that is why did Ben go to such great lengths to try and keep the Losties on the island if he knew that the oceanic 6 needed to leave?

So I just wanted to say that I would be eternally greatful to Darlton if they could write in for Oldham a brother named Daryl, who gets cloned, so that Oldham must then introduce people to “his brother Daryl, and his other brother Daryl.”

@Phil R …I think Dr. Change is still such a mystery because of all the names he uses and his arm etc. Hopefully there is more to his story- maybe when we see a Miles backstory- if in fact that theory proves to be true.

There are three outcomes that are possible for young Ben:

- Jin wakes up, sees Ben is shot. Radios in that he has been shot, Sayid is on the loose, and Jack/Juliet saves Ben.
- The others find Ben, and take him in and cure him.
- The island magically heals him.

I believe the first one is more likely than anything. The re-pairing of Jack and Juliet will push Juliet and Sawyer apart. Sawyer will go back to Kate… very confusing, then again I don’t think anyone really knows whats going on there. The relationships between those four are just confusing at best.

@Zhami Had the best suggestion I have read yet. This shooting, which Sayid believes will end his suffering and is for the greater good, will trigger a war between the hostiles and Dharma.
It will lead up to the Incident- involving Jughead. Somehow the Dharma folks will believe that a large enough explosion will do away with the Others once and for all. Though I would think an explosion the size of Jughead would radiate the entire island and cause a huge mark.

Also, I believe that Sun and Frank have traveled back in time. That the intake building they saw, and the shell of a brunt out building is shortly after (maybe one to five years, not 20+) what happened with the flaming van. Perhaps right after the Incident. They are going to be sent in to help course correct perhaps via Christian?

Last point- What DID happen to Doctor Chang? Why wouldn’t he be in with the vote for what happens to Sayid?

My bad if any of this has been posted but I just finished watching the episode and I never read the posts beforehand so I don’t get spoiled.

Peace.

Like a lot of posters, I too believe that Ben is not dead. I still believe what we are seeing is one timeline so since we know Ben grows up to kill his dad and do all the manipulating he ends up doing, he lives through the gun shot.

I do think that Ben looks up to Sayid. I think seeing Sayid “infiltrate” the Dharma camp as a prisoner is what inspires him to do the same thing in season 2. And I think getting shot by Sayid is what inspires him to shoot Locke later to continue on his mission.

And I believe the bullet will somehow connect to the reason Ben develops the tumor.

Ben wants this power, but cannot get over his natural inclination to manipulate fate. Ben’s biggest fear is death. We saw this fear manifest twice: first, in season 3, when he had that tumor; and then in this season when he made sure he killed Locke so he wouldn’t be the one to die. Ben lacks the faith needed to live forever.

But I digress. This idea of ghosts I believe will play a pivotal role in the
final season. Perhaps the “war” will be between the living and the undead. But the concept has its roots all the way back in season one because, if you think about, our Losties have been at war with themselves since the beginning and in flashbacks, we saw that each person had his or her own “ghost” of the past.

thoughts?

I don’t see the realization by Sayid that Ben executed Nadia. But it would have been great if they had at least hinted that this might have been Sayid’s motivation. However, that might have destroyed the difficult emotions Sayid felt when he finally went through with the deed. If Sayid knew for sure, he would show little remorse or pity.

So, my thoughts on the Ben thing. I think he won’t die for the same reason that Michael and Locke didn’t die: the island needs him. Someone above suggested that the island is Time. I don’t think that’s true necessarily but I think the island is the ‘thing’ that controls potential paradoxes and thus makes it possible to travel through time. If this is true, I think it is a clever device by the writers. The whole ‘what if I killed my grandfather’ paradox negatively affects most time travel stories. So the writers have created the idea of the island as a mystical, beyond-our-scientific-knowledge (i.e. almost magical) element, whose power lies in ensuring that such paradoxes cannot happen. Now I don’t know how it would work (I mean, how DID it stop Michael from dying in his self-inflicted car crash?) and it might well be something that is never explained. But this could be its role. If that is the case, then the Lost writers should be commended for creating the most satisfying, serious time travel story in the history of time travel stories. There can never be a paradox because the island will not let it happen. Somehow.

If the island does save Ben, even if he has been shot directly in the heart, then this would explain why by 2004 he thinks he is special and why he appears to react so poorly to the arrival of John Locke. While all the island was doing in saving Ben was avoiding a paradox, from Ben’s point of view he will feel like a God, an immortal destined for greatness. He will live his life for the next 27 years thinking this way, until he gets a tumour, which will not heal by itself, and then meets John Locke, a paraplegic who can now walk. Ben surviving a shot by Sayid nicely explains why Ben shot Locke. If Locke can survive a bullet, then he is special. If he doesn’t survive, then he was never as special as Ben, who had survived a bullet. I wonder then whether Walt will appear to Ben, as he did to Locke. That would explain their interest in Walt and why they had to let him go. He still had more to do.

A couple of minor things. Although I’m not a fan of alternate timelines or Ben experiencing the same loop over and over (I don’t think that’s what they’re going with), I did note that when presenting the book “A Separate Reality”, Ben said that he had read it twice. Did he read it twice in separate realities? Secondly, although we didn’t see it in a flashback, I think the moment Sayid stops trusting Ben is when he realises that Ben killed his girlfriend to manipulate him. That’s why he tells Hurley to do the exact opposite of what Ben says. They must be saving this for another flashback, although I would have thought its inclusion here would have been particularly pertinent. Either I’m wrong or the writers are saving that flashback for another reason.

I’ll say it again: change IS possible. That’s the whole goal and source of dramatic tension, is it not? To change one of the underlying variables, to change one’s self for the better? If we can overcome our capacity for violence (Sayid), our inherent selfishness (Sawyer), our fear that makes us take flight (Kate), our dependencies (Jack), our deceitfulness (Sun), and the limitations that we impose on ourselves (Locke), then we might be able to save not only ourselves, but to make a better world as well. Or a similar six factors.

I think we’ve seen hints that present day reality is in a constant state of flux as evidenced by such details as the barracks never becoming Otherville as well as a whole host of cosmetic shifts and anomalies throughout the history of the show. More importantly, all the things that were not “supposed” to happen like Alex getting shot. If the present is this dynamic in response to what’s happening in the past, I don’t see how you can say the past can be fixed through a “whatever happened, happened” rule.” When Faraday or Chang or Hawking talk of rules or what can’t be done, I interpret “can’t” to mean because of the horrific consequences rather than plain impossibility. Instead, I see a cycle that keeps repeating until we can get it right and go on to the next level.

As for taking the word of TPTB, I think one day we’ll be brought to the edge of the water and, after being whacked from behind with purgatory, time paradoxes, and/or the collective dream, they’ll simply explain “We lied.”

Defend the island.

I think the writers are possibly setting up for Sawyer getting written out of the show as some sort of emotional retribution for this. Initially I worried that Juliet or Sayid might be killed off, but it seems like the writers are making Sawyer hard to sympathize with.

It must also be the case that young Ben is still alive. I think the writers wanted to show Sayid trying to kill Ben, but it’s not really possible given that we know Ben lives to the present. I think the goal was to show how deep Ben’s manipulation of Sayid went. Ben KNEW he could get Sayid to kill so many people and make him such a fractured, empty man. Ben also KNEW that after he had used Sayid to do awful things, Sayid would be such a worthless shell of a person that he would to try and kill Ben in 1977 as revenge. Really though, this information (Sayid attempting to murder young Ben) would give older Ben the opportunity to take Sayid as far to the breaking point as possible.

My take is that Ben is who he is not because he is shot in 1977, nor because of years of mis-treatment by Roger ( certainly few abused people go on to become mass murderers — in fact, I’d say there is a negative correlation there). We haven’t yet seen the primal forces that shape Ben Linus. And while he appears deeply calculating and cold, I think he would (if he’d answer honestly, which he wouldn’t), is that he is merely serving some purpose in some larger scheme, one not of his own making, nor of an agenda that is his (he is not selfish, but a missionary and perhaps even a martyr. Oh, and not dead in 1977 after being shot).

Worse for Ben, he is not in control of events. Ben has been surprised many times by events that have come into being in spite of his intentions. In contrast to whatever Big Mission is going on (which he aims to serve), Ben’s radius of control is small and weak. In the end, I expect that we will come to see Ben as trying hard to accomplish something we will all agree with as important and “good” and come to see that Ben has had to do hard things, bad things, to attain that. Yes, I know I am a minute minority.

Without debating the question of timelines, Ben will live (and the wound will lead to his tumor 30 years hence). Most likely he will survive at the hands of Janitor Jack who must reveal surgeon skills to save a boy shot by a Hostile. This is a crucial event which no one has yet mentioned: not only has the truce been violated, but a hostile has killed (or attempted to) an innocent Dharmite. Sayid has set a war in motion. The tribunal in the living room over Sayid’s fate shows the DI folks to be capable of setting out a war party for retribution, or even to purge the island of Hostiles. And if that comes to pass, young Ben Linus will see himself as cause. Perhaps this becomes his trigger issue: his actions lead to events completely contrary to his desires. And forever will he become warpingly twisted on mastering his actions for proper outcomes — and always failing at it.

btw: where is Dr. Chang? I keep being surprised by the latitude “Security” has in determining courses of action. In all the organizations I know, Security reports to, and takes direction from, Management. And Dr. Chang appears to represent Management.

“He’s Our You” — something amiss about Sawyer’s comment regarding Oldham (great, great casting!!!). Oldham is no torturer. Why would Jack say this? Was he trying to instill a sense of urgency in Sayid to fight or to flee? But clearly interrogations have taken place there. Why would the DI need an interrogator? Who else has been tied to that tree and queried? Seems odd to me that it occurs there, even at all. Can’t be that many Hostiles have been captured… and if so, the DI would only need their story once. So, to me the presence of an interrogation site in the jungle by a Castañeda/Leary-ish Shaman is an anomaly that begs a reveal.

Actually, if I were to say there was anyone in the DI who might represent a “he’s our you” of Sayid, it would be… Amy. But then I’d say odds are she’s a Hostile that has infiltrated the DI. And so Ethan’s allegiances are shaped as we come to see. In fact, I’d also say Ethan’s father might likely be a hostile.

Final comment: The exec producers and writers are committed to their art, and the practice of it as craft. They must obey rules of storytelling if their story is to survive in our minds beyond the presentation of the final episode, if Lost is to be called great storymaking and storytelling. In this regard, I agree with a comment read elsewhere that Daniel Farraday serves a literary purpose, his role is as a “reliable narrator” for the revelation of markers that bound and constrain the possibilities, lest the reader/viewer spin out of control. Hence, we can trust the words of Farraday, not because of his character, but because of his role in the narrative. And so: what has happened, happened.

Yet: the paradox remains, for what has happened in 1977 has happened because of what happened in 2007 (Sayid being shaped to hate Ben Linus), then what is happening now in 2009 is happening because of what has (?) happened in 2019.

Peace out.

Illana and Caesar work for Ben Linus and Whidmore. Can’t tell who works for whom. At this point, I’d say Illana works for Linus.

Amy is a cutie, but she’s a double-agent. Horace is a dope.

Don’t be ridiculous; Dharma Ben’s not dead. The bullet was reflected by the old “necklace or something metal in his pocket” trick. Maybe a Dharma bulletproof vest?

If a bullet caused Ben’s spinal tumor — wouldn’t have Jack or Juliette seen the bullet in the x-ray?

Terminal pregnancies are caused by residual gas from the purge or radiation from Jughead?

The official podcast says we’ll see the entire statue this season. I’m going out on a limb right now and saying it’s Desmond. I know, it’s absolutely crazy, but Desmond has to have some twisted way of being brought back into the show. Talk about a waste of time? What was the point of Faraday giving Desmond the message to find his mother? Desmond does so, meets a few of the others, and then takes a hike. Oh, and he very likely beats the snot out of Ben a little later. Wow. Now THAT’S a waste of our time… unless Desmond’s story isn’t over yet. He knows about Ajira Airlines, right? Could he have snuck aboard and not told the others? Could he have taken a boat and travelled the exact same course at the same time, hoping to get to the island in his own way?

Oh, and about Desmond remembering the message so many years later, that’s a problem I haven’t come up with a good answer for yet. I wonder if we might not get a Desmond-centric episode which shows us a condensed series of events in Desmond’s life… as they were changed by Faraday’s message. We might see where events tried to deviate and were course corrected over and over again.

Now…how does young Ben survive (and we know he will)?

Having finally caught up, I am happy. The episode was ‘saved’. I really thought Sayid was going to go after Sawyer. But Ben… wow cool.

So… did Sayid just change time? Does Ben die, or does the island save him? All I can say is that if Ben DOESN’T die, then this episode was a 99% waste of time (as well as portions of prior episodes).

MLE – I don’t know if you listened to the podcast last summer, but it is really worth going to their archives for the Comic Con podcasts. I hope they can do it this year as well. I really enjoyed it and appreciated that they took the time to share their experience with all their listeners.

(That’s about the only reference to the Wizard of Oz I can make for this episode…)

So- my thought- which echoes some of what has already been said- but we Lost fans do like to hear ourselves think- is that Ben had to die by someone else to be reborn- That Sayid had to kill him- that his purpose was to kill him to he could be “reincarnated” Like the anagram on the side of the “Canton-Rainier” van that Ben was driving around in LA. And that was why Ben had Sayid kill so many people- not to protect his buddies- but to instill that ability and desire in him…and to piss him off as much as possible so when he returns he would hate Ben so much that he would kill him. I say this because the whole episode reeked of that- everything Ben told him about how he was a “killer” made sense when Sayid finally had to come face to face with young Ben- I think Ben was prepping him for this moment for the whole 3 years off the Island. Especially the line to the woman on the plane when he says that Ben is a horrible person because he killed his own daughter, enacted genocide etc etc- this line seemed to be placed perfectly as to give Sayid the reason, desire and will to shoot baby Ben.

I agree with what has been said- that was a powerful scene to watch (a grown man shoot a 12 year old kid point blank)- as I watched, I first said outloud, “Oh no- you aren’t gonna kill Jin are you?” and then he got up and turned and I said (again outloud…) “Not Baby Ben!!!”

My feeling is still that we don’t really know who the wicked witch is…Ben may not be the bad guy- he certainly has done some horrible things- but you wonder if many of those horrible things – somehow- had to be done- for some other purpose.

Rewatched last night “Not in Portland” when Jack has Ben on the Operating table and has the ability at that point to end his life. I feel as if you watch that and it seems that Ben is not only doing everything he can to save his own life but that in that season he is also making sure that his captives don’t meet their demise. Like he knows he needs Kate, Sawyer and Jack to live, and then when they leave he needs to be sure they get back.

It seems like present day people seem to know the past after the past has been altered. So- now 2007 Ben might remember 1977 Sayid? Des didn’t know Faraday until “present day Faraday” met “in the hatch Desmond….”

OK..that’s all…love your show- I tried to listen to another pod cast this week and it was such a joke- the first 15 minutes were four guys trying to figure out what some inane beeping noise was…so again- always come back to Ryan and Jen!

That’s all I have for now.

When Jin pulls up and Sayid goes over to talk to him telling Ben to “stay there” We see sayid talking to Jin in a way they obviously know each other. At this point we see the camera flash briefly back to Ben and he can can be seen listening in on their conversation. This is THE moment that Ben starts to realise there is much more going on. It’s ultimatly the 1st moment that Ben starts becoming the all knowing figure we know him as. He will recover and carry on learning from his suspicions, learning the future from those who went back. Sneaking around listening at windows maybe from the cameras he said “can see but can’t hear”

If this wasn’t the case and Ben just died there, there would be NO reason for that camera shot of ben eavesdropping. It’s very clear Ben has to survive. Once he has all his knowledge he “thinks” he needs from them then Ben will enduce the purge so (in his mind) he will be the sole fountain of his knowledge learnt.

Plus there is no end of other reasons stacked in favour of him surviving. anybody remember Bens list in season 2? coincidence it’s the same names that he meets as a kid? i think not.

We can now tick Sayid off the list of the returnee losties as to the purpose and reason the “island” needed them back. He’s done his bit.
Next up we will be able to tick Jack off the list as he will most likley save Ben.
Hurley is back for something connected to the numbers i imagine.
Kate i haven’t got a clue what her purpose or roll is yet.

I also agree with others who noticed that Amy looked very shifty. She was far too keen to have Sayid killed. Fear that he might say something about her and her baby? Is she a Hostile already? I’m not sure yet but something doesn’t add up with her in this episode.

Can’t wait for the podcast.

I’ve seen tequila screw with people’s equalibrium, but this stuff, I
will DEFENITLY stay away from. Here’s why:

1. Whidmore insulted Desmond when asking for his daughter’s hand in marrage.

2. Anthony Cooper drank some just before pushing Locke out the window.

3. Charlie used it to get Desmond drunk and he confessed to his “visions”.

4. Sayid let the bounty hunter “get the best of him” after drinking it.

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

Another way of saying it is “The Darma torturer is their version of Sayid”. From Sawyer- “He’s our version of you, Sayid”. So they just made it “He’s our you”. It’s bad English… but funny. Of course I kept thinking people were saying “He’s RU”. I was wondering what RU would mean  LOL!!! Then I saw it typed and said “OHhhh”.

Fun with grammar.

Cheers!

If i understand the time travel rules of the show correct, old Ben should remember being shot by Sayid as soon as it happens in the past as Desmond remembered the conversation he had with Faraday in the past, but the shot will not kill him becasue he is alive in the future if that makes sense and what happened happened.

I loved Ben’s manipulation of sayid i think he lied to him when he said the man outside Santa Rosa was with Widmore because he didn’t seem to recognize Sayid when he asked him for the time just before he shot him, Ben must hired him in attempt to get Sayid on flight 316 which is why he panicked when Sayid left him on the dock forcing him to hire Illana to capture him and get him on board as soon as she said “why would i work for a man like that” this became obvious.

Others things that stood out for me were Rogers treatment of Ben, that makes it a little easier for me to understand the gassing in the van, i really enjoyed seeing Horace and Radskinky with this much screen time as they have been such mysterious characters for the past 3 seasons it reminds me lost is in full flow now and Horace possibly mentioning the Degroot’s when he mentioned Ann Arbour was cool.
Did anyone notice the irony of Ben bringing a book and food to someone being help captive and finally my favourite line of the entire series ” a 12 year old Ben Linus just brought me a chicken sandwich how do u think i am?”.

I knew Sayid would believe his destiny was to kill Ben, but I never thought he’d actually be able to pull the trigger. I figured something would intervene as Sayid had Ben in his sights. I didn’t think we’d see this full grown man shoot a tween in cold blood.

Still, I don’t think Ben is dead. Perhaps his heart is just a hair to his left, and that bullet missed vital organs. That is, if he even has a heart (ba-dum-bump).

Whatever happened, happened…except when it comes to Desmond. Isn’t that what they keep telling us?

I think Ben has known of the Oceanic 815ers since forever, and has been waiting for them. He’s really good at keeping that poker face. He knew Sayid would come back and shoot him, and he knew it had to happen. He loves the Island enough to suffer for her. Perhaps he has been torturing Sayid these last three years in retribution, or perhaps he knew he could use Sayid to do the work of taking out Witmore and company.

Jack and Juliet are there, and they can totally do surgery to remove the bullet.

Love this show. Namaste and stay Lost.

A thought on Locke and Jacob: the reason Locke couldn’t see Jacob is because Locke is Jacob, and you cannot see yourself on another timeline. hmmmm.

Personally, I loved the episode and thought it was one of the best Sayid-centric’s we’ve had. After reeling from the shock of the last scene and finding a tissue or two for the now weekly nose bleed, I think I know what made “He’s Our You” so astounding.

To me anyways, Sayid has always been one of the strongest characters on LOST, and tonight he just didn’t fit the part. It was unnerving to see him so confused and even vulnerable, especially during the torture scene. At the end, I wasn’t surprised that Sayid shot Ben (we know he makes it to adulthood), what was so profoundly upsetting was that Sayid broke away from the calm, collected man we’ve come to know and love. Sayid has now accepted his role as a violent killer, and we all know what happens to characters on LOST who accept their own fate.

Love the podcast guys! Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.
Cheers!

I have a feeling we’re building up toward a “courtroom” type scene during which Hurley says enough is enough, I’m sick of lying, and reveals all about the O6 and flashies to Horace and Co. What happens next is anyone’s guess.

Also, I too picked up on young Ben telling Said that he “hated” his dad, in past tense. Don’t know what to make of it.

my natural bent is psychology — yes, after last night i do see that jack is more subdued and dare we even say “mellow” — juliet did not come across as the usual suspicious or coniving, but just wanting to keep her man — kate still seems “angst-y” — james may be about “surviving,” but i think he is simply that frightened little boy who had his life torn asunder as a child — he has grown incredibly though and wants to keep his life in its present “calm”

love this show soooo much

Wait…from Ben’s perspective, it will be the first time.

Gotta go. Nose bleed!

I also think that one way we can reconcile the “Daniel way” and the “Charlotte way” mentioned above is by realizing that the universe will course-correct *in spite of* careless time-travelers. If the universe has a particular destiny in mind for a person, it will not prevent changing the past, but it will find another way to ensure that the person fulfills his or her destiny. So the Flashies could blow things to kingdom come in the 1970s, causing significant changes in the future, but the universe will somehow make sure that people (and Labrador retrievers) still do what the universe has planned for them to do.

Thursdays are always so hard for LOST fans…

I am totally in the camp of Ben being alive, the doctors (some combination of trama expert Jack and Juliet) fixing him and not altering the course of events. The island will not let Ben be killed.

Amy is seeming to be rather suspicious though. I think there is more to her story. It is rather interesting that she never seems to be wearing any Dharma marked clothing.

Was the book reference “A Separate Reality” by Carlos Castenada something to consider? Has an alternate timeline been established and that’s what causes the incident?

Sayid shot Ben. So one of two things MUST be true.
1) Ben is alive. We’ve seen that people on the island don’t stay dead long (except the two “hostiles” from Amy and Paul’s picnic and all the bodies in the pit and Alex etc, etc). But if Ben is alive, he would surely remember the man who shot him. Might that motivate him to play with Sayid’s mind in the future? Absolutely. But since he thought Sayid was a hostile, and he knows he’s not Dharma, why would that prompt him to genocide? (Dharmacide?)
2) Ben is dead. None of this other stuff happens.

I just don’t see how if Ben is alive the whole timeline as we’ve seen it rolls out as it has. It is worth mentioning as well that we have not yet seen a prominent character travel forward or backward in time and interact with another major character in a life-or-death way. Even if Ben is alive he would certainly remember Sayid more viscerally than Charles Widmore having met Locke for a few minutes. Might prompt Ben to kill Nadia and use Sayid but how does the rest of it factor in?

Repeat after me:
I trust that the writers know what they’re doing.
I trust that the writers know what they’re doing.
I trust that the writers know what they’re doing.

Interesting, though – how many shows would show an adult shooting a 12 year old in cold blood? That was an incredibly powerful scene. I couldn’t believe I saw it for so many reasons. No redirection for the young man, no intervention into events, just swift judgment born out of Sayid’s assumption of righteous anger.

Finally, this is not the first time that the writers allowed a character to have sympathy on the fly in his web. Sayid’s clear connection with Ben as he was berated by his father reminded me of Ben’s display of compassion for Locke before and after he went Kevorkian with the extension cord.

Sawyer/LaFleur to Jack,

“For 3 years there have been no flaming vans! You’re back for one day…”

LOL!

Not to mention, we’ve already seen Christian and Locke come back from the dead, so we can bet Ben can do the same.

Also, is there any Lost episode where someone doesn’t get beat up? I am watching the previous seasons again and I can’t believe how many times Sawyer was injured and beat up, tortured, shot and still keeps going for 100 days.

Scott, I still say there was a lapse in time, I get that Desmond was in the the hatch a long time ago, but in Desmond’s time it was 2005 when he told him, so after he flashed, why doesn’t Desmond remember it in 2005, why wait until 2007? I know I am not explaining this well.

Let me try again, it is 2005 the freighter has blown up and they start flashing in time the first couple of days, and Daniel meets up with past Desmond. Technically even though it is probably about 2003 for Desmond in the flash, in real time it is Jan 05. Even Daniel’s final flash to the 70′s is in 2005 so why does it take till 2007 for Desmond to remember the incident from 2003? The editing made it look instantaneous but it wasn’t.

Hope you are well!

Thanks for the great Podcast!

I didn’t think Sayid would actually do that…and he did!..I was shocked for a few seconds after the closing “thud”.

I thought it was awesome episode! This is the only flashback we have seen of Sayid as a child, I thought it was pretty good as it reinforced, what type of person Sayid is.

It looks like all Ben wanted was a better life..

If little Ben isn’t dead..I wonder if this a form of redemption for Ben and Roger Linus. Another Daddy and Son redemption story I think wold be important other than the Jack/Christian story. For a fraction of a second I wonder if Sayid felt sorry for Ben, when his dad came to mop the cell floor.

This season keeps on getting better and better!

Look forward to the podcast!

Mahalo

Jonine from Arizona.

March 25th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Said killed Ben so who caused Said to be so mad and kill him in the first place.

what caused him to kill Young Ben was the future Ben.

I know for a fact Ben will live, because whatever happend happend.

So I say Ben is not dead and his resurrection or recovery will be the miracle that will lead him to obtain the leadership position of the “Others.” So, Sayid’s act of shooting Ben will be the key event in Ben’s life, the turning point that was destined to happen. Remember, there are rules to follow.

I’ve also been wondering if there’s actually an entity called “the island”. We hear things like Michael couldn’t die yet because the island still needed him, but is the island just some metaphor for Time itself? Michael couldn’t die because Time still needed him. Ben can’t die because Time still needs him.

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.

I seem to remember that Ben didn’t know of the Swan hatch when he was captured by The Losties.
If the swan was built to deal with an incident that involved Ben, that would make perfect sense. There are definitely pieces of the puzzle left in terms of how the components of the Hatch fit together, but what if the discharge every 108 minutes was to keep the alternatives of Ben having lived or died at Desmond’s hand both possible, and that when the failsafe was turned, finally “fate” came down on Ben having survived?

THis would also make sense in that it would give Desmond yet another link to the Hatch, having possibly created the need for it in the first place.
I can’t work out how jughead fits into this, so I could be way off, but I think I’m on the right track.
Love the show,
Keef

Trivial observation, but Kate is there for a reason and does anyone know why?

I’m with John Fisher but think it could be either Ben or Widmore who hired Illana to find Sayid. Ben has the stronger case I think because he needs to get Sayid back to the island but Widmore would also know who Sayid killed and potentially could be involved.

Think this was the weakest episode of the season with a killer ending.

-Richard and Ben met a year before the Losties showed up in Dharmaville, coincidence? I think not.

-When did Sawyer explain the time jump to Sayeed? I don’t remember seeing that convo.

-What is Oldham’s deal?

-I love that Sayeed was drinking MacCutcheon!

-Did Sayeed kill Peter Avalino in Guam? I can’t remember.

-Funny how both Horace and Sawyer say “I got this under control” and it takes little Ben to come and “solve” the Sayeed situation.

-Why were there so many available water hoses in Dharmaville?

- Here’s the link to the book Lil’ Ben gives – Sayeed – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Separate_Reality

that said, interesting ending. i am on board with the people who say little ben is not dead and most likely has a spinal related injury. jin is right there and will wake up and take ben to be all healed up (possibly by Jack!). ben’s behaviour in later life might be revenge for what sayeed did coupled with daddy issues.

Now we know why Ben is f***ed up, pardon my French si vous plait.

xxxstraightedgexxx

Oooh, this ep just gave me goose bumps and I cannot wait to see the next ep! hehehehe!

As it is predefined by the universe, Ben will grow old, and no bullet will kill him at this point. We saw the exact same thing with Locke when Ben shot him and Walt appeared to him.

He will walk away from this problem.

The tumor in Ben’s back in season 3 is an indication that Ben’s time is up. He doesn’t miraculously heal, and therefore, he will probably die because the universe demands it. He knows this, and becomes a more desperate man from then onward.

That being said, when the show ends, there will be holes.

Who disappears? Who just blacks out? Why would Desmond jump around with the “sickness” without the Flash? etc, etc

This episode seems to have existed just to wrap up part of the “how did they all get on the plane” question. So, next week I assume we get the Kate and Aaron story during the whole Dharma hoorah.

THEN, maybe we’ll finally get back to Locke for an episode.

So what should really be giving you the headache (as it’s given me) is how is the island going to course correct the events in “He’s Our You”. If time is already written in stone, then how is it that young Ben will rise from the dead and become the evil older Ben.

In time, there’s no alternate timelines unless we’re talking about a machine that can prevent a chrono-paradox.

Hope this helps the headache.
-Z

Great episode though! I thought sayid was going to die at the end, but then he kills ben! Well i hope he doesn’t kill him cause then there is all this crazy alternate timeline stuff… did i mention my head hurting!??

There is a lot of discussion about the paradox of Ben knowing the 815ers because he knew them as a kid, or calling Sayid a killer because he was shot by Sayid in the ’70s, etc. The show has set up two potential ways of dealing with encounters like this–”The Desmond Way” and “The Charlotte Way.”

When Daniel first meets Desmond in the 2000s, Desmond doesn’t remember any encounter outside the Hatch years earlier. Only after Daniel jumps back and has that conversation does Desmond actually remember in the present. It’s like they’re both traveling forward on the same path. While Daniel jumps back, Desmond is continuing forward, and only after Daniel jumps is the memory implanted in Desmond. By these rules, Ben’s 2004 encounter with the Losties could well have been the first. However, now that Sayid has made this jump to an earlier place on the path, the 2007 Ben may now have memories of the shooting. Sayid jumps back, while 2007 Ben continues forward. After the jump, present-day Ben will remember the events in the past two episodes.

The Charlotte Way is different. She told Daniel that she remembered his warning to her as a child, before present-day Daniel had ever been to 1977 Dharmaville. This is, obviously, something of a wrench in the works. Frankly, this is a fairly typical time-travel paradox, comically evident in movies like Bill and Ted–”We’ll just remember to go back and put x there, so y can happen right now,” and y happens. Haven’t jumped yet, but I’m going to, so events can happen now that result from that future jump.

It gets messy either way; I just hope the writers know what they’re up to.

However, don’t forget that Sawyer has been at the bad end of a Sayid torturing session himself so there is no love lost there, I’m sure. Also, he has had three years to bond with the DI people and get to know them. He knew the Losties for a little over three months and all they caused him was grief. So I don’t blame him for trying to make the best of a bad situation…save the comfy life he has come to love or save a guy who tortured him.

I’ll tell you what, all he cared about was HIMSELF and how HE LOOKED to the DHARMA people, he couldn’t give a cr**p about Sayid’s safety or well being.

After all this, will you Sawyer lover’s “get off your box” and realize that he hasn’t changed at all. Not one bit. ME, ME, ME and his existance, when it comes down to the “core” of James LeFluer/Sawyer/Ford that’s all that really matters HIMSELF period.

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

It is still unclear why he hates Ben that much, this episode didn’t elaborate on the reasons. Maybe he was pissed off when Ben called him a killer? Still, to be able to shoot a 12-year old kid… what kind of reason does that require?

The scene with 5-year old Sayid killing the hen was disgusting.

In season 1 I was a big Sayid-fan. The whole idea of a man gone bad hoping to change and yearning for a lost love… beautiful. What has he become since that? He has tortured people on several occasions, enjoyed the company of a hot blonde on-island and a hot brunette off-island only to see them killed. And he has taken up vengeance after their deaths.

I’m not such a big fan of his any more and that makes me sad:(

On another note, I agree that Ben is still alive. I have a theory about that also – maybe the young Ben got shot but the bullet went straight into old Ben’s body? After the Ajira crash he is said to be seriously injured. But Sun just whacked him with an oar, that would give you just a concussion and a hell of a make-up. So perhaps Old Bennie gets shot?

Looking forward to your next podcast, you’re doing a remarkable job!

Eva from Estonia (bet half of you don’t know where that is:P)

I am with those that don’t believe for one minute that we are done with Ben Linus, but it poses the interesting question of what happens to Old Ben if Young Ben dies or becomes severely injured.

John Fischer: You asked what made Sayid hate Ben so much…I was always curious about why Sayid ran away so fast when Ben had them all at the dock (Kate, Jack, Sun, Sayid). Tonight answered that for me as well as why Sayid hates Ben.

Sayid’s wife is killed. Enter Ben to tell Sayid that it was Widmore. Sayid now has someone to blame and joins forces with Ben against Widmore. He travels the world killing whomever Ben says is the enemy. He does all this with not one shred of proof that Widmore is actually the enemy, going only on the word of Ben Linus, a known liar and manipulator. After that odd scene where Sayid kills that last man and Ben says adios, Sayid is deflated. That’s it? Shouldn’t we go after Widmore now? Shouldn’t there be a “next level”? You could sense Sayid’s confusion and disillusionment.

Sayid goes off to redeem himself through charity work. Here comes Ben with more reports of Widmore plotting against Sayid’s friends. Sayid believes it and goes to bust Hurley out of Santa Rosa.

Now we come to the scene at the dock. Ben is talking to Kate about who sent the men that threatened to take away little Aaron. Sayid is in the background, taking it all in. When Ben confesses that it was he who sent the men, and Kate says, “You went through all that just to try to get me to go back to the Island,” a lightbulb goes off over Sayid’s head. It is at that moment that he turns away, Ben says “where are you going”, and he Sayid says, “I want no part of this and if I see you again it’s gonna be bad for you.” He has just realized that all the killing, the death of his wife, all those stories about Widmore’s men and all those enemies were just lies and manipulations made up by Ben to get him to go back to the Island. If he would do it to Kate, he would do it for Sayid and all the rest of them.

Now the question is…why?

The bigger thing I noticed was a setup for the 2007 smaller island storyline. Sayid specifically mentions Benjamin Linus to Illana on the plane. I’m pretty sure that tidbit will come into play when Ben wakes up from his oar knock out and introduces himself to Illana as Benjamin Linus. She’ll then distrust him from then on.

It also seems certain that we’ll probably get the backstory to why each of the O6 ended up on the Ajira plane in these next few episodes.

Don’t think that this would work according to a paradox… things that have happened, have already happened (as told by Faraday).

It’s easy to predict, however, that the bullet which could or could not be lodged in young Ben’s spine can be transformed into a malignant tumor by the islands “magical” powers as a means to resurrect young Ben. Jack’s timeline will remain untouched; and Ben would be viewed by The Other’s as a true leader (much like Locke was viewed).
-Z

Does Sayid empathize with little Ben after seeing his father hurls him into the bars?

\\\\SPOILER ALERT\\\ For consideration after watching the episode\\\
Can we infer, from the history of the Dharma initiative and Mrs. Hawkings dialogue with Desmond, that Sayid’s bullet, which was aimed carefully at Ben’s heart, can be the cause of a TIME PARADOX that will require COURSE CORRECTIONS.

If a time paradox has occurred, then can we begin to assume that this is the much fabled “incident” that Candle spoke about in the Dharma videos?

Where the only means of course correction would require, in time, (1) that the island resurrect young Ben (as it has resurrected Locke and Christian), and (2) transport the objects of distress (the Lost cast) to their appropriate time.
\\\END SPOILER\\\

Just some thoughts. Good to be back on these message boards… sorry, I’ve been gone; extremely busy. Ryan and Jen, you guys are my weekly salvation for Lost thoughts.
-Z

Also, I love how this show makes old episodes seem relevant again. In S2 when Sayid meets Ben for the first time Ben looks shocked. Of course we think “I would be shocked too because he doesn’t look very nice” but maybe Ben gave him that look because he REMEMBERED Sayid from when he was a boy!

Plus the scene where Ben tells Sayid “You can do things others can’t, you are a born killer” and we just think “well he is egging him on like usual” but if he remembers “This guy shot me as a kid” that was seething anger and hate in his voice.

Wow if that is all true this show just blasted into another dimension. =) LOVE the podcast keep it up!!

–don Juan

In 1961 a young anthropologist subjected himself to an extraordinary apprenticeship to bring back a fascinating glimpse of a Yaqui Indian’s world of “non-ordinary reality” and the difficult and dangerous road a man must travel to become “a man of knowledge.” Yet on the bring of that world, challenging to all that we believe, he drew back.

Then in 1968, Carlos Castaneda returned to Mexico, to don Juan and his hallucinogenic drugs, and to a world of experience no man from our Western civilization had ever entered before.

What I want to know though is where are all the other’s from 815? Everyone was flashing through time together for awhile but then it was just the main characters. Are there two sets of other’s in the 70′s? Those questions have been floating out there a bit too long!

Sayid and Ben are more similiar than they are different.
Sayid shoots Ben and it seemed like he was almost sorry to do it
Ben kills Lock and he seemed almost sorry to do it.

Razinsky is a total psycho

The Dharma folks aren’t really that organized. Where was Pierre Chang when the death vote meeting was going on?

I love Sawyer, but I think that he is a little too comfortable with the D.I. when he votes to kill Sayid.

Nobody’s posted the real question in this thread yet. How can these things have happened and Ben NOT know who Sayid and some of the others are when they crash on the island later? The others he might not recognize, but LaFleur and certainly Sayid should seem familiar. Should I give the writers credit for knowing the big picture all of this time and they’ve been writing Ben’s part with this knowledge in mind? Hmmm. I’d have to watch those earlier episodes again to see if I’m convinced of that.

One thing puzzles me, if he does remember everything, why insist Sayid gets on the plane, because that means he’ll get shot again. Man, just when I think I have things figured out, other things occur to me.

Gerold and Karen DeGroot both were doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan, as seen in the Swan and Pearl Orientation films.

In 1970, Gerald and Karen DeGroot founded the DHARMA Initiative. It was, and may still be, financially backed by Danish industrialist and munitions magnate Alvar Hanso and his Hanso Foundation. The alleged purpose of the Initiative was to create “a large-scale communal research compound where scientists and free-thinkers from around the globe could pursue research in meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, and electromagnetism.”

Oh – and about Ilana…there has to be something more to her. She’s a puppet for Ben or for Widmore, I’m not sure who. At any rate, I almost wish that they writers wouldn’t add more layers with these new characters, because I’m confused enough as it is. This show is starting to screw with my mind and I don’t know how much more I can take…but I am loving every minute of it!

On another note, I’m starting to feel really badly for Sawyer & Juliet. Like Juliet, I don’t think Sawyer ever expected anyone to come back to the island. I’m glad that he actually said in this episode that he has a good thing going right now. It’s so frustrating…I can see how Jack will eventually rise again as a leader, but I’m in the camp that’s hating Kate right now. The writers really need to do something to indicate that she does matter in the grand scheme of things (and not just because she is connected to Aaron and had romantic ties to two of the male leads).

Final comment: Naveen Andrews was pure comedy during the “torture” scene. I bet that was fun day!

Sayid shot teenager Ben. Who the hell saw that coming. I know Sayid believes (and rightfully so) that Ben manipulated him into doing all of those assassinations by taking advantage of Sayid grief over the death of his wife. When presented with a way to get payback on those responsible (who knows if they really were) for his wife murder, Sayid practically jumped at the chance for revenge. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Sayid isn’t at fault for his actions but he wouldn’t have targeted those specific people if not for Ben. Once the list was complete, Sayid was basically going through the motions. He had not clear path to follow any longer. Then when he took Ben’s advice and “get on with his life”, here comes Ben stepping back into his life. For all appearances it looked like he would continue to get on with his life, but we know that wasn’t the case. I know Sayid hates Ben. I just can’t pinpoint exactly when it happened. What I’m trying to figure out is does he really hate Ben because he’s Ben or does he hate himself for listening to Ben? So my question is , did he shot teenage Ben because he truly hated the man the teenager would become or did he think by killing this teenager he could undo all of the things he did for Ben the last 3 years? I don’t know which answer is correct but I look forward to finding out in upcoming episodes.

Sawyer brought up an interesting point, why did the Oceanic 5 return to the island? Honestly I don’t know what to think anymore. We know Locke was told to bring them back in order to save the ones left behind. Since we know that is the answer, what was the question. We were lead to believe the question was how to stop the time skipping from killing Sawyer and company but now I don’t believe that was the case. From the preview of next week epi, we know Juliet said they didn’t need to come back since they had been living fine for the past 3 years. Seeing that clip got me thinking, maybe the question for the Oceanic 5 return was they needed to save Sawyer and company from “the incident” not the time skipping. What if the reason time started skipping wasn’t because the Oceanic 5 or Ben LEFT the island but because Locke DIDN’T LEAVE the island. Locke was told to spin the wheel and leave the island but he let Ben do it. Since it was supposed to be Locke and not Ben, it caused the island to start time jumping. Locke spinning the wheel set the island back on track thus fixing the problem he created but the Oceanic 5 need to return to save Sawyer and company from “the incident”. Sounds good to me.

I’ll stop here.

I look forward to reading everyone’s thought and comments about this episode.

Thanks for reading, Tiffany in NYC

Well its simple.

He didn’t kill ben. lol

i know what you’re thinking

“But Dude he just shot him in the chest!!!”

I know wasn’t it awesome lol, but really listen Mr. Wizard from the first couple episodes this season.

“We can’t change the past. no matter what we do, no matter what we try to do, it wont work! Whatever happened, happened.”

So since its not Desmond pulling the trigger on Lil Linus then im pretty sure its obvious he survives..

Since Jin was just calling sawyer, im sure there will be a van out there in a matter of minutes, he’ll be taken back, Juliet or Sawyer will work on him and he will miraculously live due to the island’s “healing” powers.

But seriously, it was an awesome ending, but the rest of the episode seemed slow and boring except for the part where Sayid was high, that was classic lol.

Another thing, the dialogue that was used in the dock scene from “The Little Prince” and the dialogue that was used in the dock scene from tonight, were completely different, both on kate and sayid’s part.

speakin of which the flashbacks seemed kind of… boring…

when it showed him as a kid, i was like…. yeah thats cool and everything, but it would’ve been better if Widmore, Abbadon, or Richard came and saw him too. the only good flashbacks were “Post Dock Scene” because the scenes with Ilana and when he sees Ben on the plane were pretty good.

All in all it was a good episode, but not as good as the rest of the season, these last 2 episodes have been kind of boring guys, i hope they pick up lol. But thats just my opinion, i’d like to hear about what of all of you thought about it D

Oh one more thing when Radzinsky said “I’ll call Ann Arbor.”

Can anyone tell me what’s this about. Is this where Hanso is?

or can anyone confirm that Michigan is where jack grew up, because if so then Jack’s dad could be the head of Dharma, which would be epic, but highly unlikely lol.

But anyway sorry for Rambling lol

Gotta love message boards.

What has Widmore ever done that’s so bad? Sure he was mean to Desmond, but perhaps he is actually looking after Desmond to try to make sure he never gets tied into the island.

If I had to take a stance now, my bet is that Widmore is the good guy.

Also… for tonight. Loved the nod toward Mr. Eko’s childhood in the scene we see of Said’s childhood. We see again a pair of brothers one of whom protects the other by committing violence on the other’s behalf… and being tainted by the act for life.

thanks!
douglas

Leave it to the brilliant writers to take the easy choice and then still throw in a great twist!

Sorry to ask, but the local Houston news station interrupted the Hurley/Jack/Kate scene in the cafeteria for a weather alert. Was anything of significance or consequence revealed in this scene? Thanks alot!!!

This episode was filled with lots of information and raised several new questions.

When the episode ended, however, I was still a bit confused. Why does Sayid hate Ben so much? He worked for him, apparently willingly, going around the world killing people who Ben told him worked for Widmore and who threatened the Oceanic 6. After he killed the last man in Russia he asked Ben who was next. When Ben told him he was done he seemed disappointed. Why then does he come to hate Ben, to the point that he wants him dead? I didn’t get an answer to this in He’s Our You.

I’m pleased to see that I was right when I figured that young Ben was only coming to see Sayid because of his “ties” to Richard and the Others. I think it’s interesting to note that since Ben has been on the island at least 4 years at this point, Sawyer et al have lived with him for all of their 3 years.

Sawyer and Juliet are quite comfortable in their Dharma life and don’t want anyone to upset things – not Jack or Kate and certainly not Sayid. Sayid, however, seems that he will be much more difficult to control. Did you catch that look on Kate’s face when Hurley told her that Sawyer and Juliet were shacking up?

I loved seeing Ben’s father, Roger Workman, in his brief appearance. It’s clear how poor a relationship he has with his son Ben. It’s little wonder that Ben ultimately kills his dad. It seems that both Sayid and Ben share one thing in common…cruel fathers. Once again, Lost comes back to the old theme of Daddy Issues.

We really saw how conniving Ben is. He kills Locke and then blames Widmore’s people for that in an effort to get Sayid to return to LA and take care of those who are still threatening the Oceanic 6. Is there anything that Ben won’t do to advance his agenda…and by the way, what the heck is his agenda?

Now we know how Sayid ends up as Ilana’s prisoner on the plane. She’s taking him back to Guam for the murder of the guy on the golf course.

I loved it when they were torturing Sayid and Sayid told them to ask Sawyer if they don’t believe his absurd story. They don’t know any Sawyer.

How about that scene between Kate and Juliet in the motor pool?

The Dharma folks legal system seems to be a decision of the group, but they certainly wanted LeFleur (Sawyer’s) vote to make it unanimous. Who is “Arbor”(sp?) who makes the decision if they can’t?

As soon as I saw the fire in the VW bus I knew it was young Ben who did it as a distraction to free Sayid. If only he knew how much Sayid hates the older Ben. We find out just how far Sayid would go because of that hatred at the end of the episode. Is young Ben really dead? If so, that would change all of the rules, wouldn’t it?

I truly hope he is really dead, because if he is, WOW

On another note, Ryan and Jen, as a Jack fan, I believe you owe Jack an apology this week. Last week you accused him of having a pompous attitude towards Sawyer and plotting his coup. Then in the podcast you speculated it could only be Jack that would be the survivor to go rogue and endanger the rest of the losties. I think the theme of this year for Jack has been him accepting that he can’t control things, and waiting to find out his destiny. I took last weeks sawyer-jack scene as evidence of that-when sawyer said “now ain’t that a relief?”, jack’s answer of “yeah, it is” was genuine and consistent with his character arc. I think tonight’s episode further proves that.

Anyways, still love you guys and appreciate all the hard work you do! I’m looking forward to another great podcast this week.

UNLESS….Ben is missing an organ somewhere and the bullet went straight through.

P.S., So, since they didn’t actually show it, I’m gonna throw the question out there – who set the Dharma van on fire and sent it into Dharmaville?

just thinking how as of last week, James has become the most appealing character between he and juliet and jack and kate — Juliet always seems snide and like she is hiding something, Jack is often suspicious and condescending, and Kate is just plain unstable and volatile — ironically, James actually seems nice (and helpful) at the moment

i see no chemistry between James and Juliet (although I do credit her with much of his healthy transformation), some between her and Jack, and lots of longing in James eyes for Kate

This is that point of the season where I am saying to myelf that I have no clue what is going to happen.

Did he really just kill 12-year-old Ben?? If so, what on earth does that do to the history of the Island? Does the purge happen? Does 815 still crash??
Does Widmore still lead the Others in 2004?

Wow!

Sawyer: “So, how you doin’?”

Sayid: “How am I doing? A 12-year0old Benjamin Linus brought me a chicken salad sandwich. How do you think I’m doing?”

This new theory of mine theorizes that the Hydra island was once CONNECTED to the main island. But in moving the “Jughead” bomb, something happened to ignite it and:

1. “detach” or blow a hole between the main island and the Hydra.

2. Possibly be this “incident” that has been discussed.

3. Blow apart the 4 toed statue, leaving only the foot we have seen.

Now in this theory I am speculating that the foot and Hydra are on the same side of the island (I have no idea the proximity of both). And that it happened reletivitly away from where othersville is (where our 815′rs are).

Has this theory been discussed?

~ THE Pemstar Initiative ~

The title definitely sounds like a Hurley-ism to me. Who is it addressed to?
Richard Alpert? Widmore? Cesar? Horace? Can’t wait.