For the gears of “LOST” to turn, you need some nuts and bolts — not sexy, but necessary. Tonight’s episode polished off the inevitable reunification with Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid in 1977, and laid out how things went with the Ajira Airlines survivors in the distant future. Basically, everyone was plotted neatly on a map to make clear the movements and machinations to come. “Namaste” offered few surprises, then, but was still meaty and enjoyable.
Jen’s favorite moment? In her words, “It was good to see Sawyer take that sanctimonious jackass down a peg or two.” Definitely a great back and forth between Sawyer and Jack. It would be very much like Sawyer to have rehearsed that little speech, mind you, but it paid off. It’s a pity that there’s no way in hell Jack will be able to resist forcing himself into the thick of things. I wager he’ll go off script as soon as next week, simply to spite Sawyer, and send things spiraling out of control.
I loved Frank and Sun’s eerie visit to the main island, from the smoke monster-ish rustling on the dock to Christian Shephard’s tour of the dilapidated processing center. The door blowing open with a cloud of smoke was a nice touch. I like how Sun learned that over 30 years separate her from her husband, as well as Christian’s suggestion that reunification may still lie ahead. The elder Shephard does seem to have a fondness for abandoned and decaying spaces, and I’m enjoying pondering what he’s been up to on the island since Locke turned the frozen donkey wheel.
We finally meet Radzinski, a guy who Jen says reminded her of “Comic Book Guy” on The Simpsons. We see now that he was instrumental in constructing The Swan, the station in which he’ll ultimately end up going mad and killing himself. I’d love to learn the story of how he ends up inside, quarantined. I also love that he must have been ultimately successful in hiding The Swan from the “Others,” affirming that its existence was indeed a mystery to Ben and friends when we first found it in Season One.
Having Juliet meet baby Ethan was great, knowing as she does where his path ultimately leads. And Sayid meeting little Ben was fantastic. First, it demonstrates that little Ben has indeed been within the Dharma Initiative concurrent with our integrated Losties (suggesting that Sawyer and friends must’ve really kept their distance). Secondly, it’ll be interesting to see how Sayid interacts with a boy who grows up into a man that Sayid deeply despises.
Notes and Notions:
- The runway raises all sorts of questions. Did Ben and the Others anticipate the arrival of Ajira 316? So soon or even before the arrival of Oceanic 815? Radzinski suggests that the arrival of an airplane is unlikely, but not impossible, in 1977.
- Why is Sun in the future, and not with Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid in 1977? I previously thought it may have something to do with “the list” that Michael used in Season 2, but Sayid wasn’t on it.
- A leading fertility doctor ends up working as an automotive mechanic, and it’s cool and almost sexy. A spinal surgeon ends up a janitor, and it’s simply hilarious.
- Hurley’s reunion with Sawyer was great. “Kong. I actually missed that.” He also raises the spectre of “The Purge,” although I’m convinced that’s over a decade away. It’s “The Incident” that I’d be worried about.
- I was dismayed that Sun was apparently throwing her lot in with Ben… and stoked when she clobbered him. She delivered the line, “I lied,” with Ben-like perfection.
What did you think? Please comment below, e-mail us at lost@hawaiiup.com, or call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127.
4+8+23+42= 77!!!!!
Thanks, DocJKM, for that note about Charlotte. It’s never great to hear that the writers make mistakes, but at least that question isn’t hanging around in the back of our minds anymore.
Also, Dave: see Adam in Missouri’s point about Sawyer, Locke, et al. being on the Island when the hatch light goes off. Two places, same time.
Nanners-Brilliant theory about why Sun did not jump!
Knives Monroe-Great though about the flashlight vs the lantern. The first time Ben takes Locke to Jacob’s cabin, he says that Jacob doesn’t like technology and therefore they had to use a lantern for light. Has Jacob decided to tech-up? at least as far as using a flashlight?
Keep those theories coming!
I just watched the first 3 minutes of season 5, and when Pierre Chang wakes up, his wife says go get the “baby”, she never refers to it as a boy, so I think the baby may be Sun, I wish I knew what year it was supposed to be. Hmmm, something to think about. I like the concept, we just always assumed it was Miles.
It also looks like Jack’s watch stopped, he was tapping it like it was broken, this was the watch given to him by his grandfather in one of the webisodes from a couple of years ago.
Also note that Lapidus got a cut in the same place as when he crashed the helicopter. Plus suddenly Ben’s arm was healed (like John’s legs were healed when he crashed)
I think the video of Chang that was shown at comicon showed something dire happening when the video was being shot, he says they are all going to die unless someone can help them, sounds like an “incident” to me. They also mention getting the “baby” to be quiet.
Hey all! Hey Jen& Ryan!
Can’t wait to hear the podcast on Namaste!
I am in LOVE with the idea that Sun and Ben (and maybe Lapidus and Locke too?) didn’t travel back to 77 because they are already on the island during that time: Ben being small Ben and Sun being perhaps a child on the island (not Pierre Chang’s!) Hmmmm! Interesting!!
Also, can anyone post a link to the clip in the recruitment center where someone is behind Sun? Thanks for the screen cap Carol from Boston, but I was hoping for a clip…
Stay Lost!!
Well I think that we allready know that you can be on the island and see your previous self. Like in that episode in season 5 where we see Locke, and the hatch LIGHT is on, and he know’s where he’s at etc.
I’m of the opinion that because Aaron, and maybe even Ji Yeon didn’t go back, that it was an occurence that resulted in a ‘unpredictable’ outcome. I guess “ALL” of them really had to go back.
I don’t think that it matters that 2 of the same people can go back in time and see it each other. I think Charlotte only stayed because she passed away.
Oh and for the record, Miles HAS to be Changs kid. We know that Sun is the daughter of Mr. Paik.
xxxWEST-SAYIDxxx
I don’t get this attraction to the idea that Sun (and Ben) didn’t go back because they already existed. As pointed out already, this hasn’t stopped any of the others from Time Travelling. Besides the fact that they visited different times in the island’s history where they existed, they are currently in 1977…. a time they were all alive in as well, though not on the island.
How could Sun be Chang’s baby? Wasn’t it a boy?
I was very amused by the Ethan reveal as I had jokingly guessed it. When the talk started out about who the baby was, I didn’t think we really had a lot of evidence any which way and had commented that Ethan was the right age so maybe it was him. I’m glad it turned out that way, not to be right, but because I like the minor connection of Ethan more than a major connection like Jacob.
The Michael´s list on season 2 was writen by Ben so that Jack could take his tumor off, using Kate and Sawyer in a mind game to convince him. This was explained when Rodrigo Santoro died.
Hurley was on the list just to warn the rest of the survivors to not come back to rescue them, because he is not dangerous. The list of season 2 is not related to the fact of Sun being in the future and Sayid in the past.
Maybe Sayid, Jin, Sawyer, Jack, Kate and Hugo have something to do in the past, maybe to prevent some facts like “Dharma extermination”. Maybe John Locke and Sun stayed on the plain just to stay in the future to find a way to bring the others back in time after all.
And I think Miles Straum is doctor Chang´s baby. I still want to know why Ethan got mad and try to kill Charlie in season 1, waht he reaaly did with Claire and why he did it by himself, I mean if Juliet was responsable for the pregnants´ investigation, why Ethan did all of that horrible things.
And other aspect is: the hatch when desmond was for 3 years pressing the numbers to save the world. What was the incident (told by Chang in the videotape) that justified the construction of the hatch?
At the start of the episode, the co-piolot says they’re flying over the south Pacific. Why would a plane, flying from L.A. to Guam fly over the south Pacific? Even a the flight (realistically), was flown in two legs, L.A. to Honolulu and Honolulu to Guam, it would never approach the south Pacific.
Jack asks if Faraday’s here and Sawyer replies “Not any more”. Consider some facts. 1) He has spent his entire adult life studying space-time. 2) He was conducting time travel experiments at Oxford. 3) On the island, he continued studying time travel. 4) He was seen, working as part of DHARMA, around a power source, according to Dr. Chang, strong enough to manipulate time. Has Faraday again jumped through time, either forward or backwards?r
Sun saying “I lied” while standing over Ben was great, but why did she stop after whacking him only once? After all, Sun has stated that she and Charles Widmore have common interests in killing Ben.
To Michael281:
You and I are on the same page.
Loved the episode.
Seems like Ben for once in the island does now know what to do from here,
It seemed to me when he killed Locke that it was his last mission, which was restore faith into Locke. Thats why I think he said “we’ll miss you John” referring not to him being DEAD but for John to become different, and having faith in himself and the island again. It was also shown that Ben’s arm was injured, yet it healed after the plane crash, either the Island cured him or it was another act.
Now for the question:
If the picture of the new Dharma recruits were there all along does this mean that Ben is lying about knowing where Kate Jack Hugo and Sayid really are?
But if Ben doesn’t know that would mean they were not in the picture until the O4 jumped through time with flight 316, which would mean Faradays string theory was wrong, because that would prove that the past could be changed.
(like McFly’s picture in Back to the Future)
Notice that Christian Shephard took the 1977 Dharma picture off the wall and held it out for Sun? There has been speculation in the past whether Christian is real or is an apparition. I think this is the first episode where we’ve seen him interact with the physical world that makes it pretty clear that he is real.
So, where is this show going now! Have things been turned upside down or what???? How will they all get back together across thirty years of time????
Well he also interacted with Aaron, I THINK. 🙂
Hello and Namaste, Ryan & Jen and Everyone!
I agree w/ Michael281 and many others here that there is no reason to think that 2 people can’t be in the same place & time. I’m guessing it’s better if they don’t touch, but it’s gotta be possible. Sun & Ben ended up there for different reasons to be determined.
I also don’t understand the confusion in some of the first posts above as to whether or not Ben had met Richard in the jungle as a younger child. This is the same actor playing young Ben as last season ( or was it 2 ago? ). He is older now, has longer hair, is taller than when he glimpsed his mom & Alpert. This of course means that Ben is on his mission of joining the ‘hostiles’.
The photograph: If I caught what was said correclty, then Christian Shepard clearly says 1972.74.78,..ah 77. By this I take it that DHARMA definitely exists in 1978 so I don’t think that we are looking at an “alternate” timeline of Sun & Lapidus in the future.
My personal theory of the week:
I believe whatever happens this year will bring about “The Incident”. I think 815er’s are involved. After the incident DHARMA will realize that they should focus on other projects, but will stay out of the time travel business. So, DHARMA survives it, but Chang loses his arm as a result of it.
Somewhere between 1974 & 1977 Chang & Co. / DHARMA have discovered the donkey wheel / time travel “properties” / capabilities and studied for 3 or more years now. Here come the bunnies.
Other remarks:
I think that Juliet’s “mark” on her back will come into play and give away that she has been there or is not to be trusted. I think it’s a tool used by DHARMA and passed down to the “Others” when Ben takes over after the purge.
I am starting to wonder if Ben’s original list of names was to know who he should kidnap and escort to the “Temple” or join them and those who he knew he had interacted with when he was a kid.
I think that Faraday not being there means that he went “mad” and he’s not “all there” anymore.
Jared Ladish- Sun conceived on the island she wasn’t pregnant on the original flight.
The island got two people that it missed the first time around… Lapidus was supposed to fly the original plane and Mr Echo was supposed to be in the drug plane.
Jack looked relieved because now he doesn’t have to take care of everyone and get blamed for it all if it doesn’t work.
Again the writers do a great job with plot and the actors do a good job of delivering lines. But they fail again with real life believable interaction. No way do Sawyer and Jack go back to bickering after all that they went through. No way at all. How many hours of talking about time travel, history, and what the hell happened do you think would pass before they even remembered being rivals for a woman that has moved on? where’s Ben? Can we turn this around to our favor? What can we find out? Star Wars is coming out this year! ugh. they have a little fight then walk off ?
Looks like they are going to get found out by that snooping Dharma guy.
I think Ben HAS met Alpert. I mean, young Ben hears that they’ve captured a ‘hostile’ and being that he favours the hostiles evidently, he makes Sayid a sandwhich. He’s on their side, you know. 🙂
xxxWEST-SAYIDxxx
Wow! This place is amazing 🙂 I was a Lost-aholic from day one of season one. Right about season 2.5 I stopped watching “live” on tv and would watch via the internet. Sadly, I lost track but was able to catch up to season 5 just last week (I’d call myself Lost saturated for sure!) and I’d love to share some ideas with you all…
Here’s a hunch (could be a bit of a stretch) from La Fleur…
When Sawyer and gang “rescue” Amy from the hostiles we don’t see any of the events that lead up to that scene. What we see is Amy, hooded, 2 men who look like hostiles with guns, one man in a jumpsuit – dead. The armed men are shot immediately so we never get any story but Amy’s. Let’s ponder for a moment the scene. Looks like a friendly picnic was interrupted. Amy says David was her husband. But for all we know she was romantic-picnicing with her “hostile” lover — they are beyond the sonic zone after all. I mean why would two Dharmans need to lunch romantically outside the safe perimeter?
I think she was meeting her hostile friends, one who she was perhaps more friendly with than the other. I think her husband David was on to her, followed her there, and confronted them. I think the quick drawing hostiles got one up on David and shot him before he could react and maybe we are misinterpreting the scene by thinking she and David were jumped by hostiles.
Didn’t guyliner say that the sonic barrier couldn’t keep them out? Well, maybe it’s thanks to Amy – she does obviously know the code. Amy could be their plant and why, eventually her son Ethan becomes a Hostile not an Other. This would answer why she was ok with handing her husband’s body over to the hostiles without much fuss. Just a thought to throw out there.
Now a question — are we sure Ms. Hawking is Mother Faraday? Did Daniel give his mom’s name as Hawking or are we taking this as the truth? Did anyone ever say Hawking = Faraday’s mom? For sure?
My observances of the Kate/Sawyer/Jack/Juliet situation — Kate does not seem happy with any guy she’s with. Not Sawyer, not Jack. Especially not Jack. I don’t think she needs to be with EITHER guy. Juliet – I still don’t trust. I think we’re going to come up with some big wiz-bang episode where she rocks our Losties world and turns on them. The whole reason she stays is to carry out this one big upsetting event. Don’t know what or why. Just have a feeling. I’ve been known to be wrong before.
I love the Rose/Bernard = Adam/Eve in the cave. That has to be right!
And what if Whitmore and Ben are both NOT the bad guy? What if there is an even bigger baddie calling the shots and THEY are pawns? What if Jacob is the bad guy pitting Whitmore against Ben for total annihilation to get the island all to himself. A master contortionist of human weaknesses, so to speak?
or…
What if Jacob is Jack in time travel state – Jack could be a nickname.
Ok, I’ll stop there.
’till rescued,
Tammy
Two great moments this week. Jack finally gets put in his place, and Ben gets whapped in the noggin. I couldn’t believe Jack’s snide little “reading a book” remark to Sawyer, or Ben’s snide “go look after your passengers” putdown to Lapidus. Both got what they had coming.
But I’m interested in what you think about the trailer and what it means for Juliet/Sawyer – as I heard/read recenly – Kate ruins lives! I’ve gone from neutral towards her (and Jack) to loathing. They are going to do a huge amount of damage. I think the trailer shows the result of Jack’s “reaction” style of leadership. He has to do something, just to do something.
As a longtime fan of the DHARMA initiative mythology, I can’t complain about any of these episodes! I guess this episode was a lot of set-up, but it moved pretty fast. And come on, we got to meet Radzinsky! The one thing that didn’t really make sense to me was young Ben’s appearance. It was pretty cool, what with the reference to his early interest in the hostiles. But isn’t it kinda weird that Sawyer and Juliet have been a fixture in the DHARMA Initiative and either don’t know or aren’t too concerned about Ben’s presence here? Then again maybe they do know, I guess there’s a lot they know that hasn’t been revealed to the audience yet.
I don’t think anyone else has mentioned this yet, but I may have missed it-
When Sun and Frank return to the Barracks in what’s supposed to be 2007, not only is the place eerily abandoned, but it’s noticeably different than what we saw in 2004 when the Others and then Locke’s group lived there. The cabin Christian emerges from has a Dharma logo on the door and there are still Dharma pictures on the wall, certainly not indicative of how the Others kept things when they were there.
There are supposed to be rules that you can’t go back and change the past, but what else could this mean? How could all that Dharma stuff be there in 2007 when it wouldn’t have been there in 2004?
Hi you two!
Why was Radzinski building the Swan? I think that just lie the Orchid was constructed over a magnetic pocket, the Swan was as well. Then I believe that “The Incident,” was some massive over-exposure of the magnetic energy, forcing them to release the energy on a timely basis. That mssive over-exposure may have been caused by a feud of some sort with the Hostiles. Could that be the “war?” Probably not. Anyways I did enjoy the episode, it is what I refer to as a “bridge” episode, setting up a connection to the next batch.
It seems like there is a lot of chitter-chatter about a death coming which is never a good thing. My guess is Juliet, her story is all over but the relationship with Jim. as shown in the preview, she says “stay away!” and I assume this is directed to Kate, but, I think her point on the triangle will be filed down due to death. We are due for this and I do not see her lasting.
Wasn’t the episode “Lafleur” episode great! he more I watch it the more I love it.I had to show my girlfriend just so she could see the flower/dinner/spooning scene, that was so slick as was Jim talking to Alpert. I call this episode “The Egypt Episode.” And what rock and roll band is famous for playing in Egypt in the 70’s??? The Grateful Dead. And what was the name of the two Dharma guys in the Pearl???
PHIL and JERRY!!! Someone is a Deadhead among the Lost writers, I LOVE IT!!!! This keeps getting better. Shannon, Thailand, Migratory Birds, SOS and Charlie joining the priesthood are all in the past! This show doesn’t waste time anymore!!!!
I liked this episode but the commercial breaks were too close together near the bottom of the hour and, at that point where the clock strikes 9:48, there I am on the edge of my seat again.
I found it interesting that the tables are now turned on Sayid and his hands are handcuffed, thought to be a hostile, which seems to parallel when Ben was tied up and put in the armory when he was known as Henry Gale, thought to be an “Other.” In both situations, the person in prison is not to be trusted. The way that Sawyer said, “Bring him some food, we’re not savages,” was similar to the gestures made by people who took the bindings off of Ben and when Locke gave him The Brothers Karamazov to read. There’s, again, a struggle over where the prisoner is locked up and who gets to talk to him first. The issues over the keys, all similar to locking Ben in the armory.
I liked the counter clockwise spin of the plane as it went through the “open window” and I liked when Sayid and Jin met up again and then, Jin: “Say another word and you’re dead.”
It is significant that we know Ethan is Amy’s baby and that Juliet helped him come into this world. Can they change the course of Ethan’s destiny?
I think Faraday left the island. Sawyer seems disappointed in his theories of what you can or can’t do and Faraday could have left to do more research, or as others said, could have been on the same sub departure with Charlotte.
I liked how Miles couldn’t stop staring at Jack, Kate and Hurley.
Kate was looking absolutely pissed at seeing Juliet again. At the end, Kate looks at Sawyer as if he appears to be a different man now and he looks back at her sort of embarrassed that he’s not who he used to be, especially now that he’s leader and he just sent Jack on his way. There’s no “the gangs all here” vibe for them to feel good about returning. How can Jack, Hurley and Kate feel a sense that those they left behind need their help?
I loved the obvious animosity Ben showed towards Frank; what’s Ben carrying? I loved when Sun knocked out Ben and said, “I lied.” I wish Sun would have looked in his bag.
I was very freaked when the sound of “smokey” appeared at the dock when Sun and Frank arrived.
Christian saying to Sun, “I’m sorry, but you have a bit of a journey ahead of you.” What method of travel will be her journey? I also noticed how the weather turned for the worse upon Christian’s appearance; hasn’t this happened after Locke left Jacob’s cabin? I couldn’t see Claire with watching it so thanks for the screencaps that showed her. I think it must be Claire.
Sayid, meeting young Ben, and young Ben being everso curious about meeting a hostile. Is this the first hostile Ben has ever been this close to?
Going back to why the first pilot of 815 was killed by “Smokey”… Frank was supposed to be the pilot. I loved the parallel of the co-pilot of Ajira with the tree limb through him, but here Frank was walking on the boat dock and we could hear “Smokey” in the distance, retreating. So I want to see if “Smokey” is picky about whom it chooses to sacrifice; is it one’s individual destiny to die by this method if one is not meant to be on the island?
And watching the preview for next week has really sent me over the edge!
Oh, I forgot, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sun does turn and see Claire in a future episode and the topic of Aaron comes up!
Why did the “others” from 2004, let their houses fall in such disreapair? They have had time to fix them up and live in some of them. Why abandon them all? Maybe the falling apart camp and the processing building are like Jacob’s cabin. It is an illusion or some kind of magic. I never remember seeing a processing cabin before. Where are Richard and the others now.
Where are Rose and Bernard? Why aren’t they ever mentioned?
I think Daniel might be the real scientist behind alll the Dharma Bunny experiments.
Anybody else miss Sawyer calling Kate “freckles?” I also thought jack seemed a bit too mellow and happy with Kate and Sawyer reuniting, he was so jealous that she was just doing Sawyer a favor, why doesn’t he act threatened now?
Now that we are starting to get questions answered, I am wondering what all of you want to see resolved by the end of the series. What would be the worst way this series could end?
I do not want to find out it is aliens or something stupid like that, I like the idea that the island is mystical.
Finally, in an interview with Terry O’Quinn he was asked what was one of the big questions he had about his character and show. This is not a spoiler, this is just his opinon. He stated that he wonders if the Island is good or bad. John always assumes the island is good, but what if the island’s motives are sinister?
I think Jack is the way he is now, cause he is a changed man. Or at least a changing man. Well see how long that lasts.
The official podcast says season five finale is called “The Incident” looks like a lot of answers are coming!
To Those Who Don’t Get or Appreciate Time Travel Elements of Season 5:
You might want to look up what quantum theorists refer to as “the Multiverse.” The writers behind the Back to The Future trilogy did a good job at explaining how one navigates around the Multiverse in Back to the Future II, when Doc Brown used a chalkboard to explain to Marty why the 1985 they arrived in was not the same 1985 he remembered.
On a side note… I believe that the writers of the Sarah Connor Chronicles don’t get how the Multiverse works, IMHO.
I was pretty firmly in the “Sun didn’t jump to ’77 because she was already there as a baby” camp until I remembered to check her and Jin’s tombstone. It says she was born in 1980. You can see a picture of he here — Sun’s birth date is on the left side:
http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2008/03/4×07-jins-tombstone.php
However, I still think that a person can not or should not encounter themselves during time travel. This was stated in the first Orchid video that came out when Dr. Haliwax (Pierre Chang) freaks out about the possibility of the bunnies #15 getting near each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gERdALb5vQ Damon and Carlton said in a podcast last year that this video was one of the few non-TV-episode parts of the Lost canon, and it is relevant to the story/mythology of Lost.
What do we make of the fact that Charlotte’s body disappeared after the original flash to 1974, and everybody was a little confused about where it went? I think it was gone because Charlotte existed as a child in 1974 on the island. But I don’t know how to explain the “Sawyer watching Aaron’s birth” scene — he would have been in that time/place already. Maybe that was just because the donkey wheel was broken.
Knives Monroe –
I really liked your math adding up to 77…
If it’s true that the numbers represent the Valenzetti Equation and each number is a different way for humanity to end itself, I’d really like to know which number represents which dark end, and whether those four numbers together that add up to 77 are actually a clue to what leads to “The Incident” that brings our Losties back to 2004!
Aloha, Ryan and Amym
A few paranoid thoughts on Juliet:
As much as I love her, I have not ever really trusted her. Not that I think she is still in cahoots with Ben…it’s just that I have not forgotten how many times the “Others” have lied to the “816ers”. That being said, here are a few things that I noticed from “Namaste”:
* Her expression when she found out that Jack, Kate and Hurley came back seemed shocked. This could have been not because she was just surprised that they came back, but if she, as an Other, had been told that once you left the island, it would not let you back on.
* Sawyer said to Juliet, “I don’t understand it any more than you”. I think that is the writers letting the audience know that Juliet DOES understand more than Sawyer. Or at least, she knows more and as she observes her current timeline, she is seeing events unfold that she has observed (or have been told) about since she originally arrived on the island as an Other back in, what was it…2002?
* Amy asks Juliet when she and James are going to have a baby. Juliet responds, “The timing needs to be right.” I think this is the writers telling the audience that Juliet WILL have a baby and that the timing will need to be right for that baby to grow up to be pivotal later in the history of the island. Whether the Juliet character knows this is hard to tell.
* At the end of the episode, Jack tells Juliet that he wanted to acknowledge er when he saw her at registration. She responded, “We aren’t supposed to know each other.” I think that either she has realized (or the writers are foreshadowing) that she was not meant to have been an Other or the 816ers were never meant to have landed on the island in the first place and that all of the events due to the turning of the Donkey Wheel and the subsequent war will involve correcting this cosmic mistake.
* Oh…and as for the LOST, the Soap Opera…when Juliet shows up in the nick of time to save Kate from Phil’s suspicions, Juliet tells Kate, “Sorry about the mix-up”. I think the mix-up she is really talking about the swapping of herself as James’ love interest in Kate’s absence.
Namaste,
Alex in MD
As for the scene in the registration cabin in 2007…I watched it again this morning after reading the forum yesterday. I did not see any woman outside the door…but I DID see smoke when the door noticeable swung open. But it looked like dust from inside the room…not our old pal, “Smokie”.
But I’ll agree that even if it wasn’t the Smoke Monster, I think the writers really, really, really want us to keep in mind that Smokie is there in 2007 on “our island” and he is there for a reason.
I watched the episode again last night and took special note of Dharmaville in 2007 that Sun and Frank found. There were still Dharma symbols on the buildings and the windows were all boarded up. It is almost as if the Others never lived there, but that the village was abandoned years ago. This begs the question… was Daniel lying or wrong about not being able to change the future? Are the Losties that are back in 1977 indeed changing and going to change the future? The dock that Sun and Frank landed on was intact. This is the same dock that Locke blew up a couple of years ago. Why was it still intact?
Many people have commented that the Processing Center appeared a lot different than it should have. Perhaps Jacob/Christian changed it’s appearance to what they wanted after the area was re-abandoned. The cabin appeared to move. Is it a stretch to think they could change another building to suit themselves.
They WILL change the “future”… Though D&C have said that there are no paradoxes… reallity is this whole show will be one big “course correction”… so the future (flight 815 etc) as we know it will be “changed” but only because it “shouldn’t” have happened that way in the future….
To: John Fischer
May God help us all.
BTW We think, obviously and with good cause that its in 2007, but LOSTPEDIA says its 2008. I wonder why that is.
When I watched last night, I was a little worried that it did not look like we got ANY reaction from Julia when she found out she was holding Ethan. I just went back and watched online and her reaction was PERFECT, actually…. brilliant.
Metasteve, yeah, I cracked up at how quickly Juliet got rid of the baby once she knew it was Ethan, though she knew him in a different context then the Oceanic survivors.
John, interesting theory re: the dharma buildings. I keep thinking the theory of time travel is that you can’t change the ultimate outcome (a person will did if they are supposed to die) but you can change the circumstances and how the death came about. So if Dharma is meant to be destroyed it will be, but how it will be destroyed can change. After the purge the others could take over the buildings because the people died but the buildings stayed intact. It looks like in the previews next week that there will be a fire, perhaps caused by the Oceanic 6, if the fire destroys the village then the others won’t choose to live there and it will be abandoned.
Ryan And Jen
Best Pod cast out there.
Just wanted to add on that since everyone were concentrating in the WOW moments of the episode everyone forgot the pivotal scene where Kate, Jack and Hurley were in the Orientation building signing up and getting their assignments. We see that Kate was not on the manifest or any of the Logs, and didn’t know the name of her recruiter. This brought a gut wrenching fear to Kate that she was done for, until Juliette came in and saved the day with a last minute entry Log. Their expressions were priceless on the fact that there was an actual conversation in their expressions alone. It would of went something like this:
Kate “Whew, Juliette thanks”
Juliette ” Kate just remember who and where you are”
Kate ” Err um hmm”
Juliette “I am not going to let you ruin the best three years of my life, and remember i can have you removed in a heart beat”
The best moments in this series are the actual interpretation of emotions by the actors telling their story without saying a single word
Carol from Boston, I just re-watched “Flashes Before Your Eyes” yesterday (one of my favorite episodes, incidentally), and it confirms your note to John, more or less. This is the episode where we learned about course correction from Ms. Hawking, as well as Desmond explaining to Charlie that no matter how many times he tries to save him, eventually Charlie’s going to die. Well, as we all know, that’s exactly what happened. The universe has a way of course correcting, after all.
So, if we follow this line of thinking and agree with Daniel and Ms. Hawking (interesting, by the way, that they would be of the same mind, seeing as how they’re mother and son), you can’t change the future. You can delay the unfolding of events, and perhaps change the order/manner in which things take place, but eventually what’s supposed to happen will happen. In other words, we’ll always get from point A to point B. Sometimes we’ll follow a straight line, and sometimes we’ll get off course, but in the end we’ll always reach our destination.
I am hung up on why Sun didn’t flash back to ’77. There are 3 prevailing theories proposed already:
1. She is not pregnant this time as she was before.
This is possible, but I’m not buying it.
2. She was not visited by John off Island.
I guess this is also possible, but do we absolutley know she didn’t see John?
3. She is already there.
I think this can be ruled out because Sawyer and company have been flashing back and forth to time zones when we’re certain they present in.
So it must be that Sun has a history differrent from the O6 that we just haven’t learned about yet. She must have been on Island before or there is some back story we have yet to see. We’ve all seen how creepy she’s been off Island and we did not see the entirety of her conversation with Widmore at the airport. I’ll bet there’s much more about Sun than we realize.
Hi Carol and John…
I like the idea about not being able to change the ultimate outcome but rather the circumstances that bring it about but I’m wondering about those buildings that Sun and Frank find when they go searching for Jin. I mean, it’s clearly a very abandoned Dharmaville, and not the shiny New Otherton we saw in the premiere of Season 3.
Still, I really don’t know how to explain the ghost town they find.
Daniel’s explains that you can’t change anything in the future by altering the past – I take that to mean that you may THINK you’re altering the course of events, but you actually always did it that way – for example, Sawyer stepping in to save Amy…it wasn’t just an impulse decision that changed everything…I see it as him simply doing what he always did in that timeline, and it brought about the events that follow which in the end brings our Losties to the Island on 815. This is how it always was, there was no rewriting history and leading to a completely different 2004 or 2007. At least that’s how I hear Daniel…
So I wonder if Sun and Frank walked into a scene that Smokie created. We know that Mr. Eko saw and talked with a vision of what he thought was his brother Yemi in the episode where he died, and that’s generally assumed to be Smokie…so why couldn’t that ghost town have been the same? I just have a hard time reconciling Daniel’s absolute statement of “It doesn’t matter what we do” with an altered future where New Otherton never existed.
Hi Brandon…
I definitely get what you’re saying about course-correcting, and I think that it fits in well with the idea that you can’t change the future…But my question is this:
Is course-correction and the idea that “you can’t change anything” in the future (Daniel’s words) mutually exclusive? Because I would argue that it is…
If we look at the case of Charlie in Season 3, we see Desmond trying four times to save his life (the first drowning incident, the lightening strike, the drowning-after-chasing-the-par-avion-bird incident, and the arrow to the throat while hiking off after Naomi). Some would say that the universe just had it out for Charlie, so when the first attempt to off him failed, the course-correcting kicked in and the lightening strike was set into motion. So, eventually Charlie’s time runs out after switching off the jamming mechanism in the Looking Glass, and when he dies the course is finally corrected.
But let’s think of it another way: What if Charlie’s timeline wasn’t supposed to end at the very first attempt to save Claire when Desmond stepped in instead? What if, no matter what, Desmond always saved Charlie all four times, because his path was SUPPOSED to lead to the Looking Glass? If Charlie had died trying to save Claire, Sayid would have been the volunteer to swim down and disable the jamming device, which certainly wouldn’t have been easy for a military man. Instead, it’s a job suited for a musician who would know the tune to Good Vibrations. It’s something ONLY he could do.
I think this course-correcting is just one way of looking at a small piece of the bigger picture – that in any character’s timeline, they may think that they are averting certain disasters or insuring certain events, but really things always happen the way they are supposed to, and this can’t be changed – not by going to the past, nor by trying to manipulate the present. Desmond wasn’t delaying Charlie’s death by “saving him” four times – He was unaware that his actions were actually bringing Charlie to where he needed to be in the finale of Season 3.
What do you think?
Posts are really piling on
Lets do some math about young Ben
If he was 14 in 1977, that would make him in his mid 20s in 1988 when Rousseau arrived.
The purge must have occured before Rousseau got there.
However, Ben looked much older than 25 when the purge happened.
One would think that Sawier would be sort of taking Ben under his wing in the mid 70s, straigthening Roger (who will certainly come across Jack in their janitorial capacity; would Jack get involved in making Roger a better man?)
Obviously, Ben may already have become interested in helping Hostiles, by supplying some side help to the prison keepers. or at least becoming exposed to Hostiles in trying to know more about them…
It seems likely that he woud help Said escape.
But why would he escape?
Why would Radzinsky be building the Swan model in the Flame?
Horace seems to be still in charge in 1977 (according to Radzinsky)
Pierre Chang is a scientist forced to take care of incoming recruits but not at all in charge
We have to believe that his child is not born yet, as the orientation fils were shot in the early 80s
Was Daniel out of the island for a while, and came back as a workman when the Orchid was built in the early 80s.
Why wouldnt he assume his role as proemiment physicist? (as Chang did not appear to acknowledge him as a scientist when bumping into him)
Indeed it seems strange that the DI would not question further Juliets involvement in delivering baby Ethan.
As for his presence among the others in 2004, I guess it is fair to admit that he was out of the island studying at medical school when the purge happened.
Ben got him to come back later
Another theory behind Sun not going to 1977 could be that she left her baby Jeon behind. See below for my own hehehe
I think I heard the second part of the whispers as «Its alright Sun»
Regarding the blond silouhette in the background behind Sun, I have rewatched it many times in slowmo (one fifteenth frames) and frankly I tip my hat to those who picked it up cause it is not easy to see even in HD
The image posted dismisses any doubts.
It seems that those present were oblivious of its presence.
Could it be that 3 years of abandonment destroy the barracks so much?
I guess there must have been a change in history cause the place looks abandoned for a far longer time.
Maybe the DI was not wiped out after all…
I carefully monitored the people present during the welcoming procedure of the recruits
No sign of Ben
I believe I caught a glimpse of young teen Ben in DI jumpsuit outside the admission compound
No other person of note.
Now check out the picture of the 1977 recruits (and the live picture taking)
The friends are there, but not Jin.
Look at the Asian couple
Could it be Mr. Paik and a pregnant Mrs Paik ? and Sun was already on the Island (freaky huh…?)
I first want to say that I did not like Lafleur, as many Losties did. I’m still rooting for Kate and Sawyer. I still believe that Juliet is sneaky and has some information about the island that she has not revealed to the Sawyer and others that are stuck with the Dharma group. She definitely knows more about the Others.
My theory is that Juliet will break Sawyer’s heart and not the other way around.
Also, I really like Sawyer’s new attitude. I think it makes him even sexier!!
Questions:
Wasn’t Ben unconscious and badly injured the after the plane crash and Locke told the other crashees that Ben killed him? What happened with that? What happened to Locke and why didn’t Sun see him? Or was the Locke scene in the near future after Sun went back to the main island?
One more comment.
I believe that the whole not having babies issue started after the purge. I think maybe the purge wasn’t supposed to happen and it effected future time and events on the island and that is why women can’t have babies. The Others were responsible for the purge and maybe they are being punished by the island for it.
Jin was not in the picture because he was with Sayid, Sawyer and Juliet aren’t in the picture either. I’ll have to look for the Asian couple.
Well as jen likes to say “My head hurts”. I am sure we will find out soon what is going on, and in the meantime, I just bought the LOST magazine and I am enjoying reading about Damon and Carlton’s info about season 5. There are also interviews with Michael Emerson, Matthew Fox and Terry O’Quinn,
re: the figure behind Sun, I still can’t see it on my tv and I have tried slow mo and still no luck, this show is filmed in stardard format right? Not letterbox? I keep wondering if my tv is cutting off that part of the screen. I see it in the screen cap but not on my own television.
It’s killing me what the writers have done with Jack’s character. What happened to the guy who trounced Sawyer all day in poker? Who didn’t break a sweat about the gambit for the guns because he knew if he needed them, he’d get them? Who, despite his incredulity about the mystic wonder of the island, orchestrated an amazingly successful evacuation of his “people”/ambush of the others? (Remember these are the same super warrior others who cut Widmore’s mercenary army apart).
I kind of get the symbolism of Jack starting over at the bottom (work man) just as someone who doesn’t learn the lessons of this life is destined to repeat another karmic cycle of until they get it right. It just gets under my skin that all the hatred of Jack gets rewarded much in the same way that Nikki & Paolo & Frogurt got the collective thumbs down from the mob.
Here’s a vote for the common welfare as opposed to “every man for himself” as Sawyer again says in this week’s preview.
Sun was not preggers when she got on 815, she was relieved because it was Jin’s baby and it was conceived on the island. So different reason she is not traveling with the rest of them.
Also, how do you think Claire will play into all of this?