Trans 2009-03-08: “LaFleur”


This episode of “The Transmission” takes a look at the eighth episode of Season 5, “LaFleur.” We recap the story in eight minutes, then spend some time discussing it in greater depth. Then, we turn it over to You All Everybody, our brilliant listeners and readers. Then, in the Forward Cabin, we review what we know about “Namaste” and talk about the last week of filming on The Island.

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  • 0:00:42 Introduction
  • 0:01:16 “LOST” in 8 Minutes
  • 0:07:32 Sponsored by
  • 0:08:40 Discussion
  • 0:26:43 You All Everybody
  • 1:08:44 The Forward Cabin
  • 1:10:47 Closing

Got a comment about something mentioned in this podcast, or about the podcast itself? Have at it below. Otherwise, we encourage you to continue the larger listener discussion about “LaFleur” on the previous post.

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53 Responses to “Trans 2009-03-08: “LaFleur””

  1. Aaron says:

    Excited to hear your opinions on this one! iTunes hasn’t picked up on the AAC format yet though. I’ll make do with the MP3 😉

  2. Aaron says:

    I guess the time difference is on my side and i got through this podcast before anyone else posted!

    The point raised about Desmond being the baby is interesting. If he was indeed born from some circumstance that “shouldn’t have happened” it might explain why Dan thinks he’s special. To extend on the concept:

    We’ve had plenty of hints that Dans notebook has some suspicious history. When he looks for the note about Desmond being his constant it’s almost as if he doesn’t know the note is there. It just gives off this odd vibe. Also the way he specifically refers to his notebook when trying to qualify himself as a physicist. So here’s a theory. We know Dan time travels to the 70’s with the rest of them. We know he’s around at the same time as Dr Chang as we see Dan as a worker in the same scene. We know Chang is a physicist. Perhaps Changs notebook somehow gets inherited by the young Dan, and perhaps it includes some notes written by the Dan we know from the future.

    Basically i’m just suggesting that Dan might have written something about Desmond being born out of an event that perhaps should not have happened, and then this notebook is given to young Dan, who can’t understand that comment until he begins time travelling and realises that Desmonds “special” state means that he’s not constrained by the linearity of time, the universe can’t course correct him because he’s an anomaly.

    Having this notebook might also lead to him crying when he sees the news of the 815 wreckage. He’s got some idea of what’s happened.

    Just a (very jumbled) thought that i thought i’d share.

  3. jess-o says:

    Hey Ryan and Jen,
    I just wanted to share my theory with you. I believe that the ‘Her’ that Juliet looks just like is Juliet. She is on the island at around the time Ben will arrive. I believe Ben will see her and feel a kind of connection or something for her and that is how she looks just like her. Because it is ‘Her’.

    Thanks for Listening I Love the Podcast.

  4. MRPEMSTAR says:

    Take a closer look at this pic of the statue:

    Doesn’t it look like it is holding a “walker”? The one’s that older people use to assist in their walking?

    Looks like one to me.

  5. miki7 says:

    I actually don’t think it’s a walker. I am just recently off a broken leg and had need for the walker for some time. The walker is slightly wider and sets more off the body and the elbows would be slightly bent than the image seems to show. just my opinion from experience

  6. Thomas says:

    Ryan and Jen,

    Just listened to your podcast, great as usual. Thanks for giving me airtime 2 weeks in a row! (LOL).

    After listening to your show, I feel a bit better about this episode, although I still didn’t like it. You know, you can dislike an episode and still be a fan. You did bring out that Sawyer’s interaction with Richard was great, and it was after re-watching it that was another good moment.

    I will take your advice Jen, and “just go with it”, but I do not watch Heroes and will not stop watching Lost, it’s a great show. It’s just that some of the episodes are weak. At least we still agree that Kate is an awful character!

  7. Michele says:

    Two thoughts – first I think the key thing we should get from the quick glimpse of the statue was its Egyptian origin. Not all Egyptian Kings were Pharoahs – the Kings that were deemed divine (or maybe in Lost-speak ‘special’) were anointed by the priests of the temple in Memphis and at that point became truly Pharoah. Because a Pharoah was divine (i.e. god on earth) they could act as intermediaries between the people and the gods. Also these priests controlled most of the wealth of Egypt. That could explain how the Others seem to have pretty deep pockets – if they are the surviving remnant of the Ancient Egyptian priests and they left with their treasure.

    My other thought was the whole baby issue. I thought babies & mothers died on the island at around the fifth mos of pregnancy. I’m pretty sure this is stated definitively in one of the Juliet centric episodes. I know Juliet thought the problem occurred at conception. I always assumed this was due either to the time anomaly on the island – in that it would affect a developing fetus differently than it would a fully formed child – or the fact that the Others might be mega-old in that the CT Richard originally shows Juliet when trying to recruit her to Mittelos is identified by Juliet as belonging to a patient in her 70’s but who Richard claims is in her 20’s. Remember the doctor on the island states that they send their women off island to deliver – so it wasn’t a shock to have a pg pt. Also a baby is relatively full term from 36 wks on (MDs won’t stop labor that starts after this point in the pg). If the pt would die if they delivered on the island I think Horace would have shipped Amy off a lot sooner than that. I believe the doc just wasn’t very experienced in obstetrics hence he was able to diagnose the breech presentation of the baby but didn’t know enough to try to do an external cephalic version to change it. He just paniced because he knew that the only way to deliver the child in its current position was by caesarian which he had never done.

  8. Hello Ryan and Jen,

    Awesome Podcast for “LeFleur,” I will tell you that it was 60 degrees today in Boston and I loaded the Podcast for a walk on the beach and it had to be the most enjoyable day of 2009 so far!

    The Good speed baby is Thomas, the biological dad of Aaron. Why? Last Child born on island was his (AAron) b4 that was him, hello? Had to say that because the #’s work out in re; to age.

    JEN- Good pick-up on “Enos,” some folks had that incorrect, being a “Dukes” fan does pay off!

    Coming to Hawaii in June for my Honeymoon, hope to see u guys!

    Winthrop, MA

  9. One segment of the podcast really had me cracking up.

    Ryan ventured, “Well won’t we lose interest in Sawyer as well now that he’s been domesticated.”

    Jen’s reaction was swift and went something like this: “Not in this lifetime!” To which Ryan’s voice just trailed off in resignation.

    You can’t fight it. The ladies’ vote is in on this one.

  10. Mark (UK) says:

    Hi guys,

    Can’t help feeling you are reading a little bit too much into why Alpert wanted Pauls body – it seemed very clear in the show that he just wanted it to demonstrate to the others in his clan that justice had been served so they could back off again and return to the truce.


  11. ChiliDog says:

    Great Show, you two.

    I would like to defend the “baby is Jacob” argument.

    While we are awaiting it’s appearance, we have yet to witness an actual reincarnation. I think it quite possible that Jacob has been reincarnated in the form of Amy’s baby.

    However, I believe that this birth is problematic because of a course correction. That correction could be “The Incident,” I cannot speculate as to what would happen, but Jacob could be trapped.

    If Juliet and Sawyer were not supposed to intervene in 1974, and then by killing the hostiles, they wrongly saved Amy’s life. Therefore the baby born three years after could become trapped, alive when it should not be alive and yet not dead for he was never to be conceived. In a sense, merely a consciousness with no body.

  12. Chase says:


    But that still doesn’t explain how Jacob is around in the 50’s in the Jughead episode. If we go with the reincarnation angle, then there is a lot missed out, not least, who killed Jacob!!

    I like the theory, but I think its a bit ‘out there’ with only a season and a half to go….

  13. HeyKir in NYC says:

    Thanks Aaron, for thinking the “Desmond is the Horace/Amy baby” idea has legs. It was so quickly dismissed when I posted it last week, I begun to question it myself, but I think now more than ever that, like ChiliDog states above, that:

    “If Juliet and Sawyer were not supposed to intervene in 1974, and then by killing the hostiles, they wrongly saved Amy’s life. Therefore the baby born three years after could become trapped, alive when it should not be alive and yet not dead for he was never to be conceived.”

    and if he were never supposed to be conceived, then the ‘rules’ would not apply to him, no?

  14. ChiliDog says:

    @ HeyKir I always thought Desmond was loosened from the rules when he turned the key. I never contemplated that perhaps he was that way from birth. I like your theory, but sticking with Jacob until that one, like all of my other ideas, gets trashed.

  15. Alisha says:

    ChiliDog, HeyKir, and Ryan too for that matter —

    I think you’re all a bit confused about how time travel works on this show. It’s like in Harry Potter 3; there is only one timeline, everything that’s happening now is what always happened, there was never a 1974 where Sawyer et al didn’t save Amy. Similarly, when Daniel stopped Sawyer from talking to Desmond it wasn’t because it would have changed anything, it was because he knew it was futile: Daniel knew that Desmond didn’t know Sawyer when he emerged from the hatch, so they couldn’t have met before then. (Mind you Desmond is a bad example, really, as the rules don’t apply to him, but in this instance I think it works.)

    That link explains it pretty well, if you make sure you read the first comment as well as the entry itself. This isn’t Back to the Future — if it didn’t happen it can’t happen, and whatever happened happened. Dan knows what he’s on about.

  16. Hackdaddy says:

    I can’t get past thinking that Boone was the baby born on the island. Makes a ton of sense to me that the island demanded him because he was never suppose to have lived in the first place.

  17. ChiliDog says:

    @ Alisha – what would have happened had the island stopped skipping when in 1954? By that I mean, what would happen if those on the island moved down a timeline that passed through the dates of their births?

  18. Ilias says:

    Hi guys,

    Great podcast as always and on to your well deserved break.

    There are a couple things that bother me and I did not hear/read anywhere mentioned.

    When the alarm sounded every one run for cover. Now we know that the Dharma folk where not totally “innocent”, their stations had a fully equipped armory and in the episode “The man behind the curtain” the first thing Olivia does is grab her bolt action rifle. So we know that they knew how to defend themselves. Even when they saw that it was only Alpert, even Horace seemed scared to go out to talk to him. What makes the hostiles so scary? On the other side what makes Alpert so confident to just walk unarmed into Otherville, seemingly oblivious at all the eyaes and guns that are staring at him.

    The other thing is the little girl, everyone assumes that it must be Ginger but why is that? I think that Daniel, who was distressed at that moment saw that girl which caused him to flip even more. Then a few years down the road, by that time he is the village idiot, boogeyman, homeless genius or whatever he tells a young Charlotte not to return to the island. I see no reason to believe that that little girl was Charlotte. Darlton and the rest of the crew know that we are just too smart and meticulous in our study of Lost :). They knew that we would catch the discrepancy in seconds.

    The matter with the sonic fence has been discussed on many sites but I still wonder what good is it when it does not protect anyone on the inside or outside. The monster was kept away by the fence when it chased Kate and Juliet in “Left Behind”. Then we saw Ben in S4 “The Shape of Things to Come” calling on the monster within Otherville (within the perimeter). Mikhail survives the fence and Sawyer and the others were just knocked unconscious. Alpert and his people do not seem to be bothered by it at all. So besides cool looking what kind of safety system is the sonic fence? It seems to be that it has as many holes as a good Swiss cheese.

    Have fun in Austin Ryan and take care the both of you….

  19. ChiliDog says:

    along those lines…..

    If most of us thought that the baby in the opening scene of season 5 was Miles, isn’t there a danger that Miles that got put on the “wrong song” will be on the island when that baby is born?

  20. Atoms says:

    Season 3, episode 20 “The Man Behind the Curtain”: Scene in classroom (volcano experiment) with young Ben and Annie during attack by the Hostiles. There is a shot from inside classroom looking out through window, armed Dharma-ites running past. Sawyer/Lafleur, seen from behind, runs past with rifle in hand. Clearly identifiable by his hair.

  21. Bonita (from Atlanta) says:

    Love you guys, but please. Jen, stop bashing Heroes!
    Have a great break, you’ll be missed!

  22. Connie in Alaska says:

    @Aaron-Interesting thought about Daniel’s journal, but what if, instead of inheriting it, he and his mama, E. Hawking, with the help of Widmore STOLE the journal from whomever owned it.

  23. TJ Rush says:

    Just wanted to say that I loved hearing all the theories about the 4 toed statue and I think the most convincing one from Emily from Colorado that it is Bastet. But my favorite was from Jeremy and his theory that Manscara is a Pharoah. That was so awesome! You rock Jeremy!

    I also totally agreed with:

    * John from North Carolina that Sawyer and Juliet are the perfect couple. I’m all for John killing Kate.
    * Evan, that Jack and Kate should have stayed home.
    * Michelle – Freckles should disappear!

    The podcast and blog this week had great comments.

  24. Cat says:

    Relative to the baby….we may be overthinking this. It may be as simple as showing that the thing that causes the mothers to lose the babies at the end of the first trimester has not happened yet. This is reinforced by the fact that the other mothers generally leave the island to have their babies so they really don’t have expert obyns on staff. That suggests that they get well beyond the first trimester and of course this baby is born. Maybe that’s it. If not, I think that the baby that was born is someone we don’t know yet. Don’t think any one has come of with a credible explanation of someone we know.

  25. Stefani from Mass says:

    HeyKir’s idea about Desmond being the baby since the ‘rules don’t apply’… but Widmore is always trying to buy him off… if that’s the case, then WHY? But then, it would explain why he crashed on the island… it was calling him home!

    I never pondered what Hackdaddy posed – that Boone could be that baby that Juliet saved as the “sacrifice that the Island demanded’. I wouldn’t mind seeing Boone’s eyes again!

  26. Chris from Utah says:

    I just wanted to clear up a few things that I think a lot of people are confused about, both on your podcast and others. The confusion concerns the understanding of Lost’s theory of time.

    You mentioned in the most recent episode that maybe the Losties changed the course of events in the Dharma Initiative, maybe Horace’s baby was not “supposed” to be born, etc. This line of thinking goes in direct contradiction to what the producers and Daniel Faraday have said, “What ever has happened will happen.” Time is a set thing and events cannot change (at least according to this TV show’s time theory). We have been told specifically that we are not following the Back to the Future time rules that allow for alternate universes. Whatever happened in the past has already happened and will always happen that way. Whatever is to come in the future has already happened and will always happen that way.

    Right before Sawyer interferes with Horace’s wife he asks Daniel if he should get involved. Daniel says it doesn’t matter because whatever you do you already did. It’s a part of history and you can’t change it.

    When Sawyer sees Kate helping to deliver Aaron, he was always there. Now when we go back and watch that scene from season one again, we can know that Sawyer is standing right there in the woods looking at them and he chooses not to do anything. Some might say well what if he had chosen to go out and say hi to Kate and Claire and help them out. Well the simple answer is he doesn’t choose to do that. He never did and he never will. That decision is set in the cosmos and cannot be changed.

    Some might ask about Daniel talking to Desmond at the hatch door. Didn’t he change the time line by talking to him? No, that also has always happened. The only mystery left in regards to this event is why did Desmond not recognize Faraday in the future and why did this memory suddenly come back to him in a dream three years after the island? Was it just for the writer’s convenience that it happened at the “right” time, or was their some other factor working which set Desmond’s future story line in motion?

    I know I’m writing a book here so I’ll try to wrap up with one last example. Imagine you build a time machine and you want to go back and stop Lincoln from being assassinated. Well, according to Lost time theory, you could try but you won’t succeed. History has already proven that you won’t. Maybe your time machine breaks down, maybe you break your leg and can’t make it to the theater in time, maybe you try to stop the assassin but John Wilkes Booth kills you too, maybe some religious fanatics call your “time travel” a heresy and burn you at the stake, or maybe you and your time machine just get stuck inside a mountain that you were too careless to research and see if something was there. No matter what happens you WILL fail and history books will forget about you because obviously we’ve never read in any book about a failed attempt to stop Booth’s murder of Lincoln.

    I might also mention that I’ve heard a lot of people say “the Island won’t let you die” or “the Island will stop this or that from happening” as if the Island was some god-like entity that had reason and the ability to choose. Now I agree that the Island is a very special place and has important properties that are miraculous (but of course all miracles are simply phenomena that science has yet to find an explanation for), but I do not believe it thinks or has cognitive reason. Any event attributed to the Island in this way is simply a part of the already established course of time and cannot be changed or altered.

    Boy, have I beaten this horse into a pulp or what?

    Anyway, I really hope the writer’s stick to this theory of time travel and don’t introduce more complex ideas. Really, this is one of the more simple time theories to wrap your head around and look how confused so many people are already. I am worried though because Daniel mentions that Desmond is “special” and somehow these time travel rules don’t apply to him. I really hope that’s not true because as it is now, this theory of time travel is the most clear, concise, narratively coherent and dramatically satisfying and if they choose to let ONE character live outside of those rules it could cause the entire internal logic of this show to come crashing down.

    Apologies for the long post, but I’ve been lurking for a long time and I really had to get that out of me. Thanks for the awesome show, please keep it up! Namaste!

  27. Steve says:

    Chris from Utah, nice post.

    I agree with your description of the time travel “rules” on this show except I think you might be minimizing the importance of Desmond as a wildcard. I believe that we’ve already seen how much of an impact he can have on the fated timeline by keeping Charlie alive long enough to get the O6 off the island. I also think Des and his special ability are going to prove to be an important part of the ongoing storyline of Lost. Unfortunately I think this means that Faraday’s nice neat description of things is bound to get a little messed up. My take on things is that folks like Ben or Charles Widmore are going to manipulate Des into using his ability for their benefit. I also have a tendency to believe Ms. Hawking’s warning to Des that trying to cheat fate could have dire consequences for everyone.

  28. ChiliDog says:

    This time stuff is mind-bending, but I think it has been dealt with in a too-cute way thus far. Under the guise of time travel, all we are getting is really the concept of destiny.

    Sawyer and Juliet seemingly chose to intervene with the others, but according to the way we are supposed to think about this, they had no choice but to intervene. They were destined to kill those two people.

    What has yet to be adequately explained to me is what happens when a person living in a past time meets up with certain milestones in his own life. For instance, what happens when that person hits the date of his birth?

    What happens when that person hits the date in which they traveled back in time? Are the destined to simply repeat the same loop incessantly? A sort of uninteresting version of Groundhog Day in which the days are relived but are exactly the same each time?

    In that case, is the person immortal?

  29. Steve says:

    Hey Chilidog, I think this show has always been about destiny vs free-will. The time travel rules have just set up an interesting (in my opinion) way to think about it.

    In the same construct we also have a way for them to write a story about faith vs science. While the writers present science fiction sort of explanations for time travel/one single fated timeline/course correction (etc..) when the Losties are faced with making decisions within that framework they are often forced to exercise faith.

    I don’t think there’s anything to suggest that something special happens when time traveling characters reach certain milestone dates in their own past. The only thing that has been suggested (in the Orchid orientation video) is that time travelers shoudn’t touch past versions of themselves… Dr. Chang sounded pretty panicked about the time traveling bunny getting too close to it’s past self.

    But you’re right, it does open up a sort of “infinite loop” scenario with things like Richard giving Locke the compass to give back to himself in the past which he’d then give to Locke in the future etc… etc… I’m not sure that constitutes immortality though. 🙂

  30. Bomir from MTL says:

    Lets not forget that kate wil likely deliver a little Shepard on the Island in 9 months
    Who can this one be later in life ? like in 2004 …

  31. Atoms says:

    I’ve re-, re- and re-watched the scene from “The Man Behind the Curtain” that I described yesterday and, without a doubt, Sawyer/Lafleur is one of the Dharma-ites responding to the attack by the Hostiles. It occurs at about the 14:00-15:00 minute mark. Judge for yourselves.

    If that’s correct, then yes, Sawyer, Jin, et al. did co-exist with the young Ben for some amount of time.

  32. Hackdaddy says:

    Little Shephard running around on the island………..could we see the birth of Carl in the coming weeks? Maybe that’s one of the reasons Ben had it in for the boy so badly.

    Time for my crazy theory. This story goes all the way back to Adam and Eve getting banished from the Garden of Eden. When Echo died, he was in the dead center of the island, at the question mark that was center of all dharma stations. Right there he stood underneath an enormous tree that looked out almost out of place, even for an uninhabited island. It was spectacular. Could this be the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? it was there he refused to repent and was killed by the smoke monster who first appeared as his brother and said “you speak to me as if i were your brother”.

    My thinking is this, Adam and Eve…banished from the garden. Ended up on smaller island next to it. Cain and Abel made it back. Do you realize the name Abel means “mist, vapor, or fleeting life” in Hebrew while Cain means “one who supplants”. Cain was also known to have established a community who worked the land before his death.

    So, i think they got back, when Cain killed Abel in the garden, their spirits both got trapped there as a curse. Hence, smoky is the judging spirit of Abel and Jacob is the sorrowful spirit of Cain who is stuck on the island always looking for a dead body to inhabit and communicate through. The “others” are the ageless descendants of Cain who can neither reproduce or age and for whatever reason, they must have a leader from outside their community, it is someone special who can communicate directly with their leader…. Jacob. Everybody who has ever showed up on the Island have been intruders and the Others have driven them away. Egyptians, pirates on the ship, Dharma, and plane. Maybe it’s even where all the nonsense about Egyptian gods being responsible for infertility and chaos came from.

    Where does it all end? When Whitmore was banished from the island, he left with enough of the island secret to get the ball rolling on time displacement and travel. He really screwed things up by getting Daniel involved though. When the record started skipping and they went back in time, they caused something to happen that never should have (like life beginning on the island).

    I think that we’re going to realize we’ve all been fooled one more time, and the war Whitmore speaks of is not one in the past, but one we have not yet seen where because of Sawyer and his crew…..the Dharma people actually wipe out the others……thus the descendants of the people of God are all gone. Last time nothing was left on the world but wicked people, God flooded the earth. Maybe when others are all gone, God will wipe out humanity once more, and Ben knows it, that’s why he’s trying to protect the island (really the others).

    Whitmore actually ended up causing the trouble by trying to go back in time and keep Ben from taking over, but ended up doing more damage than good. And Locke? Locke is there to fix it all. Just don’t know how yet.

    And don’t even get me started about Desmond………………

  33. ChiliDog says:

    @hackdaddy – i have felt all along LOST was a bible story.

  34. Bonita (from Atlanta) says:

    Hi Chris from Utah,
    Love the time travel theory.
    I’m a SciFi fan and one who is glad Lost is finally embracing this. The best SciFi for me has always focused on the impact of individual and group relations; all the rules, norms, etc.
    Lost hooked me with the idea of strangers surviving a crash on a remote Island, and kept me with the idea of how we are all so interconnected.

    This is a great blog, (Kudos Ryan & Jen) keep up the great commentary!

  35. bluedog1121 says:

    I don’t think the baby could be Desmond. My really boring reason is that Desmond is too old. We don’t know in what year Desmond was born, but HIC was born in 1967. I don’t think he could get away with playing any younger than 40, so I’m guessing that’s about how old Des is.

    This is the same reason (among others) I don’t believe that Charlotte is Annie, like I’ve seen posted before. The ages don’t fit.

    I think I’ll miss you guys, Ryan & Jen, next week as much as I miss LOST this week!

  36. Connie in Alaska says:

    Just an interesting little tidbit: In tonight’s pop-up edition of the LeFleur rerun, Richard Alpert is described as an “advisor” to the leader of the Hostiles. Also, Horus is more than once described as the leader of the Dharma Initiative ON THE ISLAND, implying that there is another leader or leaders OFF the Island.

  37. Keith (UK) says:

    I’ve taken to taking notes when I’m listening to the podcast to organise my thoughts!

    re: The Statue. i agree that it is probably Egyptian in influence. John on the podcast asked where it went (leaving only a four toed foot)- I think that Locke resiting the Donkey Wheel triggered it’s destruction. The comment that Miles made after the jump confirms it ‘ That felt more like an earthquake’. Perhaps they triggered the end of that civilisation!

    Further evidence of a link to ancient Egypt – have we covered the possibility that the Lost island is Atlantis?

    Finally – Horace might have been angry about Amy keeping the Ankh as he has been married before (Olivia) and has experience of loss and finding someone new. Perhaps Olivia left him for someone else?

    Keep it up – must call someday.

  38. Although not directly related to this episode, the discussion about rebirth/reanimation/whatever made me come to realize something about possibly Christian Shepard and John Locke.

    Both people came to the Island as a corpse and both now are up and moving. I think if you die on the Island you are dead for good. Show up as a corpse on the Island and you are alive and walking. It is either that or you have to be wearing the right shoes. 🙂

    The Doctor from Season 4 would seem to be the exception to this, but perhaps his death on the freighter was within the “sphere of influence” of the Island and hence his death is permanent.

  39. Stan from Lomita says:

    A thought:
    Anubis: canine
    Cerberus: canine
    Vincint: canine
    It has been noted elsewhere that “Smokie” is referred to as “the Cerberus system”
    My bet is that the statue is Anubis holding two Ahnks, one in each hand.

    Kudos to both of you, Ryan & Jen, for providing your podcast, and your fans for the most thought provoking comments on this show.

  40. mcliam says:

    Jen and Ryan,

    Wow, what a podcast. Great work! I love it. I even listened to this week’s twice. I agree with you Jenn, it is one of my favorite episodes in the entire series. I don’t know why for sure, other than Josh Holloway does such a great job of selling the character (the scene with Sawyer reflecting to Goodspeed about the girl he once loved was fantastic, as well as his interaction with Alpert…wow), and also this little tidbit – from here on out we will be Dharma time. Wow. Just think – two years ago we were screaming for answers about Dharma and now we will be viewing it for 24 episodes. Nice. Anyway, I am a bit obsessed with the show, as we all are, and hate to do this, but I wanted to correct Jenn on Alvar Hanso. Alvar Hanso is still a huge part of this show, even if we never meet him. Why? He was mentioned in the Swan orientation film in season 2, as a weapons manufacturer turned philanthropist who funds the DeGroots Dhamra Initiative. AND in Bad Twin he is the partner of Widmore, as Widmore’s company, Widmore Construction, and the Hanso Foundation share a residence in a Manhattan building. Also, remember that we saw Widmore, last season, bidding on Magnus Hanso’s journal (Magnus was a first mate on the Black Rock, the auctioneer told us). I love the idea that Alpert is part of some crazy Life Extension program. Perhaps the Dharma Initiative started this Life Extension Program as a direct result of meeting Alpert and trying to find the scientific explanation for his ageless being?

    Keep up the great work and looking forward to next week! Namaste!


  41. MLE in Colorado says:

    I agree with Rich in Cleveland that one of my favorite moments of the podcast was when Jen and Ryan were talking about Sawyer and how basically he could just sit around like one of the red shirts (shirtless of course) and we would still love watching him. That was priceless.

    I agree with Stan- even though I said Bastet – having the statue be one of the canine Gods would be a cool homage to Vincent.

    I also like what Keith in the UK said about the earthquake could have been the statue falling…interesting possibility.

    The baby is going to be SOMEBODY…too old to be young Carl- could be Boone as I mentioned in my post after the Lafleur show…but I didnt think that would be very interesting. Des is too old as well I think. But what about Charlie…maybe that is why he had to die too because he was never supposed to live. I know many of you think what happens happens- but I am not so sure about that…the idea that Amy should have died and now Horace and Amy have a baby…a baby that should have died…

    Tonight in rewatching with pop-ups I kept thinking that maybe if they were always supposed to be there…that is why they all end up on 815 and when they are told they are “not supposed to leave” its because they are NOT SUPPOSED TO LEAVE and so they must come back to make happen what is supposed to happen. I realize half of what we say here makes no sense…

    Does anyone think that dharmaville looks like munchkinland? (wink)

  42. Keith (UK) says:

    Controversial thought – how about the baby is no-one special? The writers could be playing with us on this one!

  43. Steve says:

    Keith (UK) I think you’re probably right. There’s a lot of speculation that the baby could grow up to be someone like Ethan Rom – which seems about right to me, and let’s face it, Ethan’s significance is rather minor at this stage of the game.

    I think the birth of the baby was to give us the first clue that the baby problems start during Ben’s time of leadership. The Dharma doc explaining that they always had babies born off island was a bit of a red herring to add suspense to the episode. The real reason for this was just as he explained, they don’t have an obstetrician on site.

  44. Keith (UK) says:

    It’s one the of the reasons I am absolutely fascinated by the Lost phenomenon – the writers seem to tread a relatively straightforward path, and provide only small amounts of extra detail and cross referencing. The fans then fill in the gaps in vast amounts, drawing parallels, patterns and links all over the place. Given the lead time in writing the show, i can’t imagine that the fan reaction has much impact on the actual story (except in some cases – see Paolo and Nicky)

    It’s also one of the reasons that I don’t recommend the show to anyone if the suggest they want to watch from the start – the attendant internet following and phenomenon is such an important part of the piece, I think it would be found wanting.

  45. Steve says:

    Keith (UK) – nice post above, I am inclined to agree. Although, I think the series works for different people on different levels all those crazy ‘shippers. 😉

    The show certainly demonstrates the human capacity to look for, and find, patterns.

  46. Chris from Utah says:

    Going back to time travel and Steve’s response to my post:

    Yes, I do believe Desmond is “special” in some way, but I really hope whatever ability he has doesn’t become some “deus ex machina” tool that the writers can use to get themselves out of any loop holes they’ve created or corners they have written themselves into. The writers thus far have shown that they are very good at what they do and I have confidence in them that they will do a good job. It’s just a worry I have. I really like this time theory and I’ve been championing this idea since before Lost was even around, so I just hope it doesn’t get a wrench thrown into it by the writers. But no matter what they do, I’m along for the ride and I’m having fun so we’ll see what happens!

    Concerning Desmond’s ability to see the future and his continual saving of Charlie’s life:

    Who’s to say that this is not set in time as well? I know Desmond had visions of Charlie dying, but Charlie never actually died in those ways. The event recorded in history as the way Charlie dies is “he swims down to the hatch and drowns.” So I don’t think the visions Desmond had “changed” the time line. They were just more events that were already written in the annals of history which lead to the eventual death of Driveshaft’s bass player.

    I don’t want to diminish Desmond’s importance. I still think he can be “special” and “important” while still maintaining the time rules as they have been established.

    One more note on destiny:

    This theory of time travel brings up one of the key points of Lost. Do we have free will or are we destined or fated to do everything we do? A lot of times people talk about this question as if it had to be one or the other. But I like to think its a little bit of both. But if history is already written then I have no free will, I’m just a pawn right? No, YOU are still making the choices. It’s like in the movie the Matrix. The Oracle tells Neo that he has ALREADY made the choice of whether to eat the candy she holds out to him or not, just like his future self has already chosen whether to save Zion or to save Trinity. She says he just doesn’t understand why he made the choice yet, but when the time comes he WILL understand. I think a similar thing will happen to Daniel Faraday, who has been told he will tell young Charlotte to leave the Island and never come back. He’s been trying to convince himself that he won’t do it, but his future self has already made the decision, and when the time arrives he will finally understand the decision and he WILL tell her.

    As I said before, I think destiny and free will exist together. Maybe our “destiny” is a path that we can choose to take. The closer we follow that path the happier our lives will be. Things will go smoother and just seem to fall into place. Whereas if we choose to stray from that path our lives with be fraught with disappointment and strife. It will be like we are constantly fighting to swim upstream. This idea has been adeptly shown to us on Lost in the dichotomy of Jack and Sawyer. Jack, by leaving the path, has made his life a miserable wreck. But Sawyer, by following his destiny, has found life and love and contentment. (at least for now) Following your destiny doesn’t mean you will never see hardship, it is just the best possible path of all the paths you could choose to take.

    Here’s hoping we all choose the right path!

  47. Steve says:

    I think if Charlie was always supposed to die by drowning in the hatch after disabling the radio jammer then Desmond hasn’t demonstrated the special ability that Daniel said he has and that the O6 were always supposed to leave the island. I don’t believe either of these two things to be true given what we’ve been told on the show so far.

    Desmond’s ability is counter-balanced by the course-correction mechanism and either one of these things could be employed as deus ex machina by the writers if they so choose.

    These are just my opinions, but they seem to make sense to me in the context of how things have been explained by the the writers so far.

  48. This is a little late but . . . The big statue aside . . .

    Sawyer is my second favorite character on the show (to Locke) but I was unhappy with this episode. I realize that Sawyer has been on an upward trajectory towards redemption since the middle of season one (he waved to jack on the way by as that guy plummeted to the depths of hell.) However, this was a Sawyer I don’t want to see. By the end of the episode I felt like I was watching “Thirtysomething.” It was just all too happy-touchy-feely. The romance music that played as Sawyer talked Juliet into staying “just two weeks” was Hugh Grant/Sandra Bullock sickening.

    I get the dramatic irony. Jack came back for Juliet (or Kate) and Kate came back for Sawyer but now they are both unavailable. It is all very Shakespearean. The way this episode went, the whole series may just end in a delightful double wedding (with the exploding Jughead providing a glorious fireball sunset.) Yes, I understand that they had to explain how the time jumpers managed to survive on the island until they could all get back, get back, get back to where they once belonged but this was a sorry bridge episode because of it.

    Overall this was one of my least favorite episodes of the entire series. It is still “Lost” and better than most everything on television (though Breaking Bad is coming back finally) but a bit of a weak sister on the scale of “Lost” episodes.

  49. Lucia says:

    I don’t have anything to add to these brilliant discussions but has anyone has figured out how to review some of the earliest episodes of season 5? I really want to go back to the beginning of this season to look for clues and fill in the blanks. I emailed ABC about it but it doesn’t look like they’ve tried to add those episodes.

  50. Keith (UK) says:

    @Lucia – you wouldn’t be able to catch any clues, as you are predestined to have missed them. If you tried, something would always get in the way – the phone would ring, your cat would jump in front of the TV, there would be a power cut. Why do you think that your email has gone unanswered:

    This series has a way of protecting its secrets!

    (unless you are Desmond in disguise)


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