We love when “LOST” unleashes a clever twist of storytelling. But tonight, that twist was in service of one of the most tragic reveals we’ve ever had on this show. It was beyond bittersweet, it was heart-wrenching, to go from “Oh!” to “Oh god no!” in the same moment. Finally, Sun and Jin have separate off-island stories, but the space between them is the worst kind. I got a lump in my throat when Jin forgave Sun and said he’d do whatever it takes to protect his wife and child, and sure enough we learn that Jin dies not six months after those words are spoken.
And we are certain, at this point, that Jin is dead. If his fate wasn’t sealed by his words to Sun, look no further than Sun’s graveside introduction of Ji Yeon. Indeed, so beautifully was this crafted, I’d be mad if the writers find a way to wiggle out of it. Because the prospect of now watching Jin’s last few days on the island over the next few episodes, knowing what we know about his fate, will probably be one of the more memorable periods for any character on “LOST.” [What did you think? Comment or call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127.]
So who are the “Oceanic Six”? Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Aaron and Sun. Up until now, Jen and I disagreed on whether Aaron was among them, but I think tonight we agree that he was. And of the other five, Hurley is the only one to fly to Seoul to meet Ji Yeon. When he’s told no one else has come, he says, “Good.” So things seem strained among our post-island survivors, even at this point in the future (which at least comes before Hurley’s flip-out and basketball game with Jack). Looks like keeping up an elaborate fiction is stressful.
One surprise? Juliet blurting out to Jin that Sun had an affair. Even though we knew she did, we felt almost as dumbfounded as Jin. The news had its intended effect, in terms of saving Sun and the baby’s lives, but boy, that Juliet’s something else. Sun went from saying to Juliet’s face that she didn’t trust her, to putting her life in Juliet’s hands. Juliet’s as hard to figure out as Ben, methinks.
The opposite of a surprise? Learning that Michael was on the boat. (Though whether he’s Ben’s mole has yet to be officially confirmed.) At least they didn’t save that reveal until the closing thud. He’s Kevin Johnson, janitor. The question is, has he had the job only since sailing off a month prior? Or for much, much longer? (Frank’s bearing of 305 ate half a day. What would Ben’s bearing of 325 do?) And we’ve not seen Walt yet. We can only hope a fair chunk of all this is told next week, else we’ll be waiting almost two months for the rest of the story.
In terms of new faces, we finally meet Regina. Who a few minutes later is swimming with the fishes. She, like Minkowski, gets introduced and killed off within the same episode. I can only hope, coupled with Michael’s boat story, there’s a freighties flashback that gives us a lot more of those two… because Fisher Stevens and Zoe Bell are just too awesome for cameos. In any case, it looks like Regina went off the deep end, and the blood stained wall and tales of “cabin fever” suggest that many others have as well.
We also meet Captain Gault. That he utters Charles Widmore’s name and catches Desmond’s reaction was great. Desmond and Sayid are told not to trust him, so what to make of his otherwise plausible story? That the fake plane wreck at the bottom of the ocean was a ruse that Widmore only recently uncovered, and at great expense. And that the answers behind 324 dead bodies lie with Benjamin Linus. There is a great conspiracy afoot, but I have no idea who’s behind it. The question is, what does it accomplish? If a fake crash stops the world from looking for the plane, and from finding the island, I can still see both Ben and Widmore being behind it.
The “male bonding” scene between Bernard and Jin was a nice touch, though we always love seeing Bernard or Rose. The discussion of “karma,” and Bernard’s conclusion that Jin and he were “the good guys,” echoed countless previous distinctions and definitions of good and evil. Jen says it, too, foreshadowed Jin’s fate. Since it seems making the right decision and becoming a good person is the most reliable ticket to gonersville.
- The book Regina was reading was “The Survivors of the Chancellor,” by Jules Verne. The story is of an ill-fated voyage at sea, told in the form of a diary. At the end of the book (spoiler alert!), a character decides to avoid cannibalism by jumping overboard.
- Sun was watching “Exposé” when she went into labor. Love that.
- Kate, Kate, Kate. Now she’s playing camp counselor? “I’m going to have to tell Jack,” she scolds, then adds a little wink. Trying to earn brownie points? Shut up!
- When the doctor takes Sayid and Desmond to their new (blood stained) accommodations, we get a curious line. The doctor says it’s the quiet part of the boat, and Sayid observes, “But the boat isn’t moving.” Says doc, “If you say so…”
- Captain Gault: John Galt, of Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”? Or sediment?
- Locations: The interior of the toy store was Toys ‘N’ Joys store in Kaimuki on Waialae Ave. Photos! The exterior street scenes were N. Pauahi St. in Chinatown at Smith St., near Mei Sum (one of my favorite dim sum joints). More photos! The hospital for both flashback and flash forward was Kahuku Hospital. Not sure about the cemetary, though.
Jeremias, the Lost Podcasting Network has a listing of a lot of Lost podcasts out there: http://lostcasts.blogspot.com/
I think there are a lot of great podcasts but it is sometimes hard to find the ones that are to your taste. I would assume you’ve tried Jay and Jack (http://www.jayandjack.com) since they are so popular but if you haven’t, check them out. Along with the Transmission, they are one of the best ones out there. One that is not on the Lost Podcasting Network but is worth checking out is the British podcast “The Lost Initiative” (http://www.skyoneonline.co.uk/lost/podcasts.html). It’s different from the Transmission but you still might like it. There is an American “The Lost Initiative” that is also good which you can find here: http://www.myspace.com/lostinitiative
I subscribe to a few others as well but they are all listed on the first website I gave you so hopefully you’ll find something you like. Good luck!
That was one of the saddest episodes of television I’ve seen. After all that Sun & Jin have gone through; from being victim & villain, to villain & victim, to heroes and friends, to the touching “I forgive you†seen last night, it was disturbing to find out there’s little hope of a happy ending for them. Although we probably all figured it out before it was “revealed†in the end, it just seemed cruel the way it unfolded. What purpose did Jin’s flashbacks have other than dramatic effect for this episode? Not the most surprising reveal in a Lost episode but certainly one of the most disturbing, for me anyway. I can only hope that Jin’s death comes in something as heroic or more than Charlie’s; or, that Jin ends up stuck as a prisoner of Ben or Widmore for some reason and can’t leave the island with the Oceanic 6. I can’t believe that everyone either dies or wants to stay on the island. Something terrible must happen to the remaining Losties. So terrible that Sayid has to work for Ben to protect them, Hurley is tormented into insanity again, and Jack’s “do the right thing†personality tortures him into trying to get back.
So it seems that major characters who aren’t part of the Oceanic 6 are Sawyer, Claire and John— all part of the breakout camp. Does that mean they stay on the island, or are killed off in a melee? Also, Rose and Bernard…. Yoiks! A lot of beloved characters. Time will tell…
I’m also interested to see when and if Alvar Hanso– and his nemesis– appear for real.
hey ryan and jen!
aloha from new york city! i always drop by your site first for all the post analysis from you and the lost community. you guys really have the best site, because it is so easy to read and the analysis is always interesting and sometimes spot on. this episode “ji yeon” is in my opinion the best episode this season. the cemetery scene was so moving and so sad. i think back to season one and how these two characters and their storyline progressed and developed, it’s incredibly sad to see it end like this. incredible!
Jeremias, two podcasts in particular I’d recommend in addition to The Transmission (thanks again, Ryan and Jen, for bringing it back!) are Lostcasts and The Lost Podcast with Jay and Jack.
Lostcasts is sort of research oriented. On each show they talk a bit about the most recent episode, but their primary focus is in looking into the meanings of a lot of the details in the show (for example, character names, books that are shown, etc.). They spend a few days surfing the web, both Lost websites and others, and then sit down to talk about what they’ve learned, adding Lost-oriented twists to the information. http://www.lostcasts.com/
Jay and Jack do a nice job of recapping the episodes, then talk about what they think it all meant and play and discuss feedback from their listeners. They also tease each other mercilessly, get reports from a few People In The Know (including Ryan from the Transmission and, occasionally, Jorge Garcia [Hurley]), and conduct a “what do you think will happen this season†contest. http://www.jayandjack.com/ for an AAC version or http://jayandjack.blogspot.com/ for mp3 (usually available a few several hours after the first one).
Jeremias, I also meant to say that, if you aren’t already, you should definitely be listening to The Official Lost Podcast, which is conducted by executive producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse – fun, funny, and the only place you’ll get answers you know can be trusted…sometimes. http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=podcast
Rob W in Aurora, IL loved your books found in the wreckage.
How about this:
I USED TO BE AN IMPORTANT CHARACTER… SON OF A BITCH!!! written by Sawyer
Actually, I like Sawyer and think Josh Holloway does a great job.
A LITTLE LESS JACK, KATE AND JULIET PLEASE written by Me
Okay, I got through about 1/2 the comments and still haven’t seen my theory. I will read the rest, can’t pass them up.
I too realized Jin was a flashback, I did ponder it at the cell phone’s size — but was unsure of what normal size for cell phones were in Korea in 2000 or 2004. The mention of the year of the dragon nailed it for me. I’m a dragon. I think there might have been something in his wallet to that was a clue–they kept on it for a bit too long.
Now my first theory — most hopeful theory, is that the Oceanic 6 are:
Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Sun and Jin. Jin being still alive (his death faked because Sun’s father or other enemies might be gunning for him.) But after typing this I realize if his death is faked and the tombstone read 9/22/04. He can’t be counted as one of the Oceanic six.
So, that would put Michael on the list as the final sixth. The ads did promise to reveal the last of the 6. And they revealed Michael.
Another thought, if it isn’t Michael, is that the last of the 6 was in the background hidden in plain sight.
So the lima beans had to be important. What do you think that was all about? Is it as simple as the food on the boat can’t be trusted (and if so, why?) and so Frank is giving them “safe” food? Is Frank the one who opened the door, and sent the note as well? And, where is the helicopter since the pilot seems to be on the boat? More questions……..
Another thing was I don’t think Michael is that good an actor. There was no glint of recognition at Sayid. He seemed drugged or sleepwalking. Making me think Ben did brainwash him, as he may have brainwashed Locke or others, (no pun).
Of course Michael is undercover and wouldn’t want to elicit suspicion, but he was too cool. Something is up with that.
What is with all the scars on the freighter’s crew?
And the waterbugs? Were they there to be an element of added disgust about the ‘guest’ quarters? Waterbugs = water: is the boat leaky?
One last thing.
Lost has major Daddy issues. You a daddy you die. Even a proxy daddy like Charlie. Jack’s Father’s coffin, Locke’s father and Sawyer’s ‘spiritual’ father in that he became just like him. Sawyer’s real dad – dead. Kate’s dad – kablooey.
No wonder “I’m just doing what I’ve always done, survive” Sawyer balked at fatherhood.
But Jin’s tombstone is a lie. That is a fact. So, what else about what we know about Jin is a lie?
Thanks everyone for good LOST discussion. One comment. The tapping on the boat that Sayid and Desmond hear must be someone else being held. I think it must be Walt. They are moved to ‘quieter’ location so they can’t decipher? Would Walt know morse code? Then who? And did I see that dreaded Execute button again in the promo for next week? And, oh, no . . . not more Michael antics, please.
Thanks Bill for the lima bean comment and Rob W for the book list. Double LOL
I think Jin dies after he “returns” as one of the Oceanic 6 due to instability from time shifting, a.k.a. Walter and other freightees. It would be difficult to explain him dieing from gun shot wounds inflicted while commandeering helicopter.
Also, if the helicopter is the source by which the 6 are rescued, can someone tell me how many trips it will take? I think there was a load capacity issue mention. And where the heck did the helicopter fly to? on an ‘errand’? Does that mean he’s back on the island?
I also, picked up on the “if you say so” about the boat NOT moving. Maybe a reference to moving in time.
Ben has shifted Desmond and is using him. He is not an O6. I think his looking at the bracelet on Naomi and ‘economist’ chick, is a memory loop.
Also, if you have not discovered Lostpedia writing contest for future episodes, check them out over hiatus. Some are really great.
Looking forward to the podcast, Ryan and Jen. Thank for the photo links to photo shoots.
Agree with what was said above, the person in the coffin cannot be an Oceanic 6 member, due to the publicity that would certainly surround it. After all, the person in the coffins name was in the paper.
Theory of Ben being paid 3.2 million for the bodies. I don’t think so, and here’s why: Ben looked genuinely surprised at that number when Miles mentioned it. He seemed perplexed as to why he would say that number. If it were indeed the sum he had been paid, he would not have been surprised, and would not have asked Miles why that number, for two reasons: a)he would not have had to ask b)he would not have wanted Miles to say how he knew or what that amount was for in front of Locke.
A good point was made above regarding the very likely scenario that it is Ben’s person on the boat who passed the “Don’t trust the captain” note. If that is indeed the case, maybe it is actually the other way around. I like that possibility.
Regarding the whole “who are the actual Oceanic 6” debate, I think it is very simple. At the end of the episode preceding the epsiode where Kate has her mockery of a trial, the announcer said, “We will reveal another of the Oceanic 6.” That episode the announcer was referring to is the one where Aaron is revealed to be in Kate’s care. He is one of the Oceanic 6. Nobody said they all had to be on the manifest. The fact that he was seemingly born from an Oceanic survivor while on the island pretty much would throw him in the group. The whole event was the Oceanic crash, survival, rescue. I mean, what else would they say, the Oceanic 5 plus that kid that was born on the island? No, it would be much easier to just say, “The Oceanic 6.” Everyone on the planet would know exactly who you were talking about, and would know the alleged circumstances of the birth of Aaron.
With that being said, that only leaves one more spot open, and that is obviously Sun.
As much as I want to believe that Jin is still alive, I really feel he is dead. The theories that he made it off the island is living secretly, etc. are just not happening, I’m sorry.
I will concede that there is indeed a small chance that he may still be alive on the island, but Sun’s grief seemed pretty real to me, and again, there would be no need to pretend around Hurley.
Regarding the date of his death, it just simply fits the story Jack told. Two people survived the crash, but died shortly afterward. One of those two would probably have been Jin in the cover-up story.
I don’t know how the pregnancy timeline would work out with Sun though. I haven’t delved into that one.
Lastly, for now, I disagree about the terrible writing comment from Steve. I thought it was great writing, and liked how they used the flashback and flashforward in the same episode. I guess that is certainly a matter of opinion, but it definately worked for me.
i wasn’t that into this episode. I’m too used to the writing team actively trying to trick us for the Jin and Sun flashback/forward to be a surprise. The Michael thing wasn’t a surprise but I can’t help but think if I hadn’t been involved with the behind-the-scenes stuff (that comicon conference where they announched he was back into the show, this podcast, etc) it would’ve been a great scene.
I’m not certain Jin’s dead. As I watched the last scene I just assumed Sun had fully accepted she’d never get back to island and saw it as losing Jin forever. I really don’t think he’s actually dead…
btw, the bit when Regina jumped off and everyone just watched reminded me a little of T.S.Elliot’s ‘Time Machine’, if anyone remembers that bit.
Do you mean “Time Machine” H.G. Wells, the movie? Where they just watch girl fall in water?
I just rewatched the episode.
There are 2 toothbrushes in Sun’s bathroom at the beginning, she takes the red one and leaves the blue one (the male color). There also seems to be a man’s toiletries in her medicine cabinet.
There is no panda behind the cashier in the first visit to the gift store.
Who called Jin when his phone was knocked out of his hand?
The arm bump and the cab swipe seemed planned — too convenient.
Hurley asks is anyone else coming? And when Sun says, “No.” Hurley says, “Good”. I first thought he was speaking of the rest of the Oceanic 6. But if the timeline is correct ( and this is the closest flashforward off the island) he shouldn’t have anything against Jack yet, or Kate, or Sayid or etc.
I think he is referring to the guy that is evidenced in Sun’s bathroom.
It makes absolutely no sense to me to assume that Jin is one of the Oceanic 6. His tombstone states 09/22/2004 as the day of his death, not some day after the rescue.
It becomes clearer with every episode that the ‘secret’ that the Oceanic 6 keep, is that there are more survivors back on the island, whereas the 6 pretend that everyone else had died in the crash.
As to whether Jin is still alive, I guess we might just as well flip coins, but if you really want to stretch it, here is my thought:
Usually something is revealed in the last second of each episode. Just look at the very last scene, when Sun is done with her crying thing. To me this looks like the face of someone who knows she’s being watch and is just pretending.
Just my 2 cents.
Stefan
I caught a continuity problem.
The panda is not behind the cashier in the first store visit until the cashier names the price — then it’s behind him. It is not behind him in the 2 or 3 shots before.
Part of me is hoping this is not a continuity error but a mixing of flashforward/back. I glimpsed something else : the wing of the dragon is behind the cashier’s left shoulder in a few frames and in alternating frames there is some cardboard promo that has a blue background with some sort of whit glyph.
Are they getting that lazy with continuity or are they playing with time?
About Ben sending Michael with the wrong coordinates. All Ben said, was that he would find rescue on that coordinate. Maybe Ben sent an unsuspecing Michael right to the boat knowing they would do something to Walt and force Michael into another deal with Ben.
Didn’t read all the comments, sorry if this is a repeated thought.
I am with stefan. Jin isn’t an Oceanic 6.
But that doesn’t mean he isn’t alive and off the island.
A couple of other things seem contrived or they are clues. Sun’s doctor is at a conference? Sun is obviously a celebrity, so wouldn’t the nurse and doctor know she doesn’t have Jin around? And who was the Jin look alike walking past her door? It seemed she was being watched.
Whomever called Jin on his phone right before it was knocked out of his hand, wasn’t connected to The Ambassador, the phone call right before was. And Jin was very upset when he couldn’t finish the conversation. Possibly Sun. It was more of a personal reaction than a professional one.
This episode has turned me into Nancy Drew. I don’t think Aaron is an Oceanic 6. That would be a writer’s cheat in my book, he wasn’t on the manifest. But then again it isn’t like the writer’s haven’t cheated before on this show.
Like TimR, I too believe that Jin is still alive but left behind on the island. Sun is not grieving Jin’s death, but desperately missing him. Knowing that they have left their friends behind fuels Hurley’s & Jack’s later urgency to return to the island.
If Sun isn’t really grieving Jin’s death, then why go to the cemetery? No, I think he’s really, truly dead. …unless she knows she’s being watched and has to make visit to the grave to keep the secret?
I think she goes to the grave because it is the closest “symbol” she has to Jin, and because they are being watched. They made a point twice to show that Sun STILL wears her wedding ring. I know that some widows do still wear their wedding rings, but I read it more as she still has hope that they will be reunited.
No, Jin’s not dead. He sacrificed his ticket off the island for others. All other survivors have to be pronounced dead, otherwise they’d be a million questions for the Oceanic 6.
The memorial and the visit is a charade. Hurley almost seemed like going to the memorial would be fun. The memorial visit was staged for someone’s benefit. We’ll see, maybe in season 6.
Is there a possibility that due to this time thing when the 6 people leave the island properly that they may be found on an island near the “staged” plane crash as the only survivers of that crash
Hey guys,
I wonder if Gault is named after Ayn Rand’s character, like you said. In Atlas Shrugged, Gault is a man of immense talent who creates a revolutionary engine that will “power the world”, but ultimately shuns society because he believes they will never let him reap the rewards he is entitled to for his creation. We already know that the island has many mysterious powers, and according to Ben, people like Widemore want to exploit them. Perhaps the name Gault is ironic, since he’s the captain of a ship that is here for the man who knows the most about that unique mystery of the island.
Keep up the great work guys!
-Dara (pronounced, “Dah-rah”)
Ryan and Jen –
Love your podcast! Being at the source gives your reflection a lot more authenticity than us poor folks wandering around the mainland.
I can’t make up my mind if Jin is dead or not. There are plausible arguments for both, but I suspect he is indeed in the ground. Two things stood out though – Sun’s bathroom had TWO toothbrushes. Who is the second one for?
Second, what’s with Hurley in an expensive suit? In his pre-crash life he never dressed in anything but shorts and T shirts. Why would he dress up just to visit the baby? It was clear this was not a formal memorial service for Jin, as his death took place at least 9 months before this flash forward.
Next week should tell a lot. Looks like some serious gunplay will take place, and I have a feeling we will see the return of the Others who were sent to the Temple – perhaps an intervening force between the Losties and the Frieghties?
Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.
Greg wrote:
I disagree about the terrible writing comment from Steve. I thought it was great writing, and liked how they used the flashback and flashforward in the same episode. I guess that is certainly a matter of opinion, but it definately worked for me.
Well I just think that the stuff in the Jin flashback needed to contribute something to the story beyond deliberately deceiving the audience to not be considered a cheap trick. Not much different from an “it was all a dream†reveal in terms of artistic integrity, in my opinion. I usually don’t care too much about stuff like this in a TEEVEE show but I found the tactic a little too low to let slide and Lost usually does a better job than that. Add to this that they really rushed the conclusion of the story of Sun and Jin’s relationship, which the audience has had 3+ seasons to become invested in (I’m assuming that is so they can kill Jin off in the near future) and it felt like a very weakly written episode to me.
Besides, I think the reveal that Jin is not one of the Oceanic 6 during the cemetery scene would have packed enough punch without having to resort to wasting our time with all that panda buying nonsense.
I think I was further irritated because I was much more interested in sticking with what was happening on the freighter but those scenes just created a sense of dissonance when thrown in with the Jin and Sun stuff.
Hmmm… I guess I didn’t like this episode very much. Oh well, I still like where the show is going and can’t wait to find out what Michael’s been up to recently.
havasupi, I completely agree with you that Michael is the final Oceanic-6… I think I either wrote it up there somewhere or dreamed about it (in which case, I need to sleep better). But I do believe that Michael is the final Oceanic 6 and is reason enough that no one went to his funeral. Michael, I might be wrong here, had a mother but supported himself throughout. His only real concern was that for his son’s life, and if Ben kidnapped him… well, I think that we know what happens when Michael decides to find Walt (i.e. Murder, self-wound, and yell “WAhahahaLT”)… now imagine Ben removes Walt from Michael forever!
Michael has no connection, no purpose in life and would be a reason for Michael’s deterioration… which leads us to the now famous Flashfowards Mortuary with the casket. I know it’s a long stretch, but if Lost has promised darkness… I don’t for a second doubt that Michael would commit suicide for loosing his son. It’s dark, I know. But we just lost Jin… and I’m in a very dark place indeed.
-Z
Jin is definitely not dead. He is alive and still on the island.
His tombstone shows that he died the day the plane crashed. We know he didn’t.
Kneeling before the tombstone, Sun wasn’t grieving Jin’s death. She was grieving that he couldn’t be there to share the joy of their daughter’s birth.
Sure she acted like he was dead. And in a way he was. To some people, death means that the person who died went somewhere (e.g., heaven) and cannot return, forever separated and unreacheable. This is not unlike Jin’s situation. Jin is on the island, separated and unreacheable. This is consistent with what Sun said: “I miss you so much.” Beautifully ambiguous, subject to multiple meanings. Great writing.
The tombstone scene, as moving as it was, did not make me cry. I burst out crying at this realization that hit me then:
[PLEASE DO NOT READ FURTHER, if you dislike “spoiler-like” “predictions”]
Some of you may have sensed this much earlier…
Jack will bring Jin back… along with the rest of Jack “Sheppard’s” FLOCK that were not part of the Oceanic 6. Jack opened the story, and Jack will close the story at the end. Bringing his flock back will complete his character arc, his hero’s journey.
After returning as part of the O6, he lived a lie, pretending that all is all right. But he was clearly uncomfortable with it. He knew it was a lie. For example, he was reluctant to see Aaron, a reminder of Jack’s failure to bring his flock out of the island. And that lie nearly destroyed him as he tried to commit suicide, jumping off the bridge. He disintegrated into the deepest abyss of despair. But from that he will rise. The hero will return. He will go back to the island, and bring his people home.
JC, not bad. Very Joseph Campbell in your way of analysis to the possible events. Let’s hope that Lost is able to complete an arc that inspiring… I’ve seen many time-loop shows disappoint in a realistic way, for example Quantum Leap and Sliders. Still, they were great shows.
Despite some notable high points — the storyline on the freighter — this episode was dishonest and manipulative. The duel flashbacks was not clever innovation, but a violation of the storytelling rules as they have been laid out.
Similarly, last week’s episodes also involved story manipulations. As a working writer, I saw this episode and the last as hack jobs. They probably sounded good as pitches, but they lack the narrative elegance of Season 1. I can’t help but think Season 4 is being served by too many chefs.
While I agree with you JC, the date on the grave doesn’t absolutely prove Jin isn’t dead. If say he was killed by a freighty that wouldn’t be a part of the O6 cover story, they’d just say he died in the crash.
The confusing thing is, if his body isn’t there (which it wouldn’t be) why would Hurley say “shall we go see him?” (or something like that)
MJ: err yes that’s what I meant. Really should have done my research on that one!
JC, I like what you have to say about Jack’s hero journey but just because a theory may possibly happen, that does not make it a spoiler or even “spoiler-like.” A spoiler is something that has been leaked by insiders on the show or someone like Ryan who has seen filming. There are plenty of feasible theories thrown around in the comments section but they don’t all get a warning saying “hey, this one’s so good it may end up being a spoiler.” Still, it is a good theory.
I also agree that it’s possible Jin isn’t dead but just because they lied about his date of death on the tombstone does not mean he is definitely still alive.
James, what kind of manipulations are you talking about from “The Other Woman”? The introduction of Harper? I can see that a little but I also think that since they set up the fact that Juliet and Goodwin were sleeping together back during Season 3, I don’t think it’s a cheat. We were already given clues to that part of the storyline.
As for this week’s use of flashforward with flashback, the writers have shown before now that it’s not always going to be the same story telling technique like we learned about in Season 1. This isn’t anymore of a cheat than flashforwards or of Desmond’s time continuum in “The Constant.”
Hey mindstage, fellow 2nd toothbrush spotter! I’m wondering why no one else is wondering who belongs to the toothbrush and other manly things in Sun’s bathroom. I posted above that there were male toiletries in her medicine cabinet.
Also that Hurley’s remark of “good” that no one else was coming had to do with this mystery guy and not the other Oceanic 6.
I am putting myself in the ‘sloppy written episode’ episode corner. The episodes lately have been full of tricks and distractions. Perhaps David Copperfield is on the writing team directing the audience to look over there while they are moving the Statue of Liberty out of sight.
It is more of a game now than a drama. Which is a loss for me, I did start out loving the characters: faults & all, and the arcs they were on. I still root for some of the characters, but I can’t stand Kate, Jack, Locke and Ben and they are the primaries. So, I’ll enjoy the scavenger hunt the writers give me every week.
I do think the Panda buying rigamarole has something I am not seeing. Here I am giving the writers some benefit of my doubts. There were two blatant continuity goofs. I don’t think Lost allows itself to be that lazy, with some analyzing it frame by frame.
They just better not touch a golden hair on Sawyer’s head.
I just wanted to state that I don’t think that Michael being on the boat is something that was something “that you could seen from a mile away” or the “obvious choice”. The vast majority of the people that watch this show only watch the show. They don’t read online, listen to podcasts, play the online game, etc. For them Michael and Walt left on a boat almost 2 years ago (real life time) and lots of things have happened on the show and in everyone’s real life since then. Sure for those of us who read more about the show it became pretty obvious the last few weeks, but I would guess that we make up
James wrote:
I saw this episode and the last as hack jobs.
I couldn’t agree more James.
As far as Michael being on the boat being obvious to most: you don’t have to read fan forums, spoiler pages or listen to podcasts to notice that Harold Perrineau’s name was popping up in the credits every week. And with that rather conspicuous hint, him being Ben’s man on the boat seemed like the most intuitive choice. I don’t mind that they telegraphed that one – and it will be interesting to see how he ended up where he is.
Those who think Jin is still alive, I’m skeptical. His story has pretty much come to a redemptive end and, as several have commented, we all know where that usually leads the Losties. I can’t help but hearken back to Eko being pounded into the ground by the smoke monster.
Kyle, I actually think that the vast majority of people who watch lost also compliment their viewings with other media (particularly online). The show has always had a multimedia angle. Regardless, I think I have to disagree further that the Michael “reveal” was just super lame. No excuses. Maybe it was just too built up (think of Ben telling Locke he’d need to sit down to hear who his man on the boat was).
With that in mind, I am willing to give the writers some credit and hope that Michael is not Ben’s man on the boat. Perhaps Michael is his own man and is trying to get back to the island to get Walt? Still, who is so shocking that Locke would have to sit down? Maybe the Captain? I mean, that would show just how powerful Ben is and maybe Locke would be impressed enough to give Ben his freedom? If that’s the case it throws the “don’t trust the captain” note into a different light. Maybe Michael did write that note (he just hired a second grader to do the actual writing, seriously what was with the big, elementary school handwriting?). It would make sense if Michael (who got a glimpse into “other life” and the evil of Ben) could work out that the Captain was working for Ben.
I know this is going to sound heartless, but I was pretty unmoved by this episode. I am glad that Sun had the baby, but I have always found her to be a fairly stiff and not so credible character (bad acting or writing, IDK). I have a hard time feeling anything for her or Jin. I found the exchange on the boat between Jin and Bernard horribly contrived. It seemed as if they mashed a storyline that could have used a couple episodes into one. One thing I couldn’t help but notice was that, Jin exits the scene and Michael enters…remember the tension between the three of them?
I think Jin is alive though, just still on the island, which would be as good as dead to the Oceanic 6, hence all the crying with the birth of the baby.
I don’t get the Widmore/Ben/Bodies/3.2 million theory….Help?
Re the Panda….
Here is some info about the symbolism:
Chinese books over two thousand years old show giant pandas with mystical powers. People thought that they could ward off evil sprits and natural disasters.
Also Pandas symbolize the diversity and tenacity of life.
Jin was VERY determined to get the Panda, even returning to get a second one.
I think Jin is still alive.
According to the writers of the show, this is season 4 and it’s about who gets off the island, season 5 will be about what happens when they got off the island and reveal why they have to go back, and the final season #6 will be about what happens when they get back to the island!
I have a recollection (from “Eggtown,” maybe?) of there being the Oceanic Six (survivors), plus two others who survived the crash but did not make it off the island. Perhaps Jin is considered one of them? I’m actually a bit curious to find out what that is all about.
Couldn’t Sun have just kept Jin’s toiletries in her bathroom? Her husband has been gone for only about six months, maybe she’s feeling sentimental?
I do not understand the hostility from some posters about the flashback/flashforward. There weren’t this many complaints when season three ended with a flashforward, and this was another interesting little trick; just when you think you’re onto the writer’s devices, they throw you a curveball. Digitally inserting people into episodes (a la Harper, Paolo, and Nikki) I can see being upset about. But to do a combo FB/FF is fair game and clever. It certainly wasn’t the absolute best written episode so far but it was solid and based on the commentary above kept the majority of people guessing until the end.
If Michael turns out to be one of the O6 then is it possible that the extra toothbrush was Michael’s? If you take into consideration that the Mobisodes were cannon? I don’t like it…but it’s possible…and that would be a reason for Hurley to say “good”.
Well I don’t share the same sentiment about Kate’s Character that Jen does and I am glad she is a main character. That is more that I can say for Lockes or Juliets Roles. For example when Kate is driven to find out what Miles and the rest of the people on the freighter know about her I do not take from that scene that she is a bad negotiater…What I get is that she makes a conscience decision to go back even though she has alot of ugly legal things to face if she does. Miles and Sawyer have warned her she might as well stay put but she goes anyway. I believe that she does so for 2 reasons. One Because she knows that Jack is going back to the mainland and because she is ready to move on to another chapter in her life.
(I am also curious if Kate faced charges for what she did to her Cop husband Joey that she drugged and left incapacitated on the floor to escape having to face charges for what she had did to her stepdad. Joey was also Joey on a popular soap OLTL before he showed up cast as her husband)
Meanwhile I am alittle confused about the Flaskback with Jin. So Sun was calling out Jin’s Name in delivery delerium when in actuality Jin must of died weeks prior…..Correct? And the Scene with Jin running around buying and then losing the Panda was really just to throw us off and make us believe he was in real time with Sun only to find out that was flashback to before he ever arrived on the island…Right? I know …I’m slow…..I’m from Detroit….. Love the show and the podcast
Jin is not dead. As others said, the gravestone said 9/22/04. The rest of the world thinks everyone on the plane died but the Oceanic 6. Makes perfect sense that he would have a grave. Sun never, ever says that Jin is dead or that he died. In her speech to Jin at the grave, she says she misses him and wishes he was there. The writers picked her words very carefully. Because Jin is NOT dead. He’s on the island, for one reason or another. He’ll be back. You’ll see.
I agree with the poster who stated that Jin’s death at this point is a 50/50. The tombstone makes it obvious that “someone” wants the world to think he died in the crash, but we know he didn’t so it’s a fake. He’s not an Oceanic 6, so that means he stayed on the Island. At this point we don’t know what happened to him, and it is quite likely that neither does Sun or any of the other O6. I can see Sun’s scene at the cemetary with Hurley being played both ways: Sun knows Jin is dead and is grieving that he will never meet his daughter; Sun knows Jin was left behind on the Island and that she will never see him again, so he is as good as dead to her and will never meet his daughter. Either way, the grief expressed would be real and there would be no need to “fake” a performance. I am not going to side either way at this point because it is too ambiguous at this point. In fact, I would not be surprised to hear the producers tell us that, yes, Jin is dead, get over it or do the old “is Jin dead??mmmm….maybe….wait and see…hee, hee, hee” routine.
Regarding Hurley’s comment when meeting Sun to go to the cemetary. I did not pick up on the second toothbrush and male toiletries in Sun’s bathroom, but that does bring up some interesting possibilities and gives a new meaning to Hurley’s “good” (no one else is coming) comment. One of my thoughts was that two O6 members meeting and going out in public might be able to travel unnoticed, but a group of three or more would draw the attention of the news media, paparazzi and fans, so the less of them that get together at one time the better.
Dave wrote:
I do not understand the hostility from some posters about the flashback/flashforward. There weren’t this many complaints when season three ended with a flashforward, and this was another interesting little trick; just when you think you’re onto the writer’s devices, they throw you a curveball. Digitally inserting people into episodes (a la Harper, Paolo, and Nikki) I can see being upset about. But to do a combo FB/FF is fair game and clever. It certainly wasn’t the absolute best written episode so far but it was solid and based on the commentary above kept the majority of people guessing until the end.
I disagree, what they did in this episode was not clever. It could have been clever if they could have come up with a Jin FB that added something to the story AND tricked us. But it added nothing.
As a writer, there are many things you can do to misdirect your audience. But if your misdirection has no value beyond deliberate deception than its nothing more than that. I’d be willing to bet that the writers of the show understand this, given that they’ve proven to be pretty good at using misdirection in the past.
And I’m not being hostile, just honest. I still like the show and think its better written than most things on TV. I just hope they don’t start settling for a lot of cheap tricks to get us to the end because that would be disappointing.
I haven’t seen anyone asking how Michael got onto the boat. I doubt very much that a boat on a top secret mission with specially selected crew would pick up a guy on a boat in the ocean and make him a janitor. Even the janitor would have been background checked and selected by Widmore’s staff.
So here’s my theory. The Island is surrounded by a circle of different timezones. The angle you travel on to and from the island determines the time-gradient between the outside world and the island. 305 degrees gives you a zero delta, so you don’t lose / gain time. The missile came in at a different angle and was 30 minutes late. My guess is the Dharma drop-offs come in at another angle and are years late.
Ben allowed Michael to leave to convince the other Losties he was a good guy and would keep his word. Michael left at 325 degrees and went backwards in time and was intercepted by the sub. The sub took Walt and transported Michael back to the mainland with a mission he had to accomplish if he wanted to see Walt again. They setup a convincing background for Michael that allowed him to get the Janitors job which may have taken months. He couldn’t tell anyone, or even himself, about 815 and the island otherwise he wouldn’t see Walt again.
The time deltas explain a lot. Ben could easily obtain lots of cash by knowing things ahead of time. I wonder how much he made on the World Series? With this cash you can arrange for the plane crash and dead bodies, not hard to obtain them from morgues, funeral homes, etc.
Widmore wants the Island for the time travel capabilities, why else would anyone spend that much cash and effort. Ben covered up the plane crash retrospectively (i.e earlier in time) so that no search party would find the island.
As for Jin, he’s still alive on the island, as are most of the others. Sun’s pain is that she thinks she will never see him again, which is worse than dead. She has no hope. I think we’ll see the Oceanic 6 get together in the future to go back to the Island and rescue the others.
One other point. When as the fake Oceanic 815 discovered? It must have been at least two months before the Oceanic 6 go back to the world. In that case, there would have been funeral services for all on board, and tombstones. So Jin’s tombstone proves nothing, except he is part of the lie the Oceanic 6 are spinning and most likely still alive.