We love when “LOST” unleashes a clever twist of storytelling. But tonight, that twist was in service of one of the most tragic reveals we’ve ever had on this show. It was beyond bittersweet, it was heart-wrenching, to go from “Oh!” to “Oh god no!” in the same moment. Finally, Sun and Jin have separate off-island stories, but the space between them is the worst kind. I got a lump in my throat when Jin forgave Sun and said he’d do whatever it takes to protect his wife and child, and sure enough we learn that Jin dies not six months after those words are spoken.
And we are certain, at this point, that Jin is dead. If his fate wasn’t sealed by his words to Sun, look no further than Sun’s graveside introduction of Ji Yeon. Indeed, so beautifully was this crafted, I’d be mad if the writers find a way to wiggle out of it. Because the prospect of now watching Jin’s last few days on the island over the next few episodes, knowing what we know about his fate, will probably be one of the more memorable periods for any character on “LOST.” [What did you think? Comment or call the LostLine at (808) 356-0127.]
So who are the “Oceanic Six”? Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Aaron and Sun. Up until now, Jen and I disagreed on whether Aaron was among them, but I think tonight we agree that he was. And of the other five, Hurley is the only one to fly to Seoul to meet Ji Yeon. When he’s told no one else has come, he says, “Good.” So things seem strained among our post-island survivors, even at this point in the future (which at least comes before Hurley’s flip-out and basketball game with Jack). Looks like keeping up an elaborate fiction is stressful.
One surprise? Juliet blurting out to Jin that Sun had an affair. Even though we knew she did, we felt almost as dumbfounded as Jin. The news had its intended effect, in terms of saving Sun and the baby’s lives, but boy, that Juliet’s something else. Sun went from saying to Juliet’s face that she didn’t trust her, to putting her life in Juliet’s hands. Juliet’s as hard to figure out as Ben, methinks.
The opposite of a surprise? Learning that Michael was on the boat. (Though whether he’s Ben’s mole has yet to be officially confirmed.) At least they didn’t save that reveal until the closing thud. He’s Kevin Johnson, janitor. The question is, has he had the job only since sailing off a month prior? Or for much, much longer? (Frank’s bearing of 305 ate half a day. What would Ben’s bearing of 325 do?) And we’ve not seen Walt yet. We can only hope a fair chunk of all this is told next week, else we’ll be waiting almost two months for the rest of the story.
In terms of new faces, we finally meet Regina. Who a few minutes later is swimming with the fishes. She, like Minkowski, gets introduced and killed off within the same episode. I can only hope, coupled with Michael’s boat story, there’s a freighties flashback that gives us a lot more of those two… because Fisher Stevens and Zoe Bell are just too awesome for cameos. In any case, it looks like Regina went off the deep end, and the blood stained wall and tales of “cabin fever” suggest that many others have as well.
We also meet Captain Gault. That he utters Charles Widmore’s name and catches Desmond’s reaction was great. Desmond and Sayid are told not to trust him, so what to make of his otherwise plausible story? That the fake plane wreck at the bottom of the ocean was a ruse that Widmore only recently uncovered, and at great expense. And that the answers behind 324 dead bodies lie with Benjamin Linus. There is a great conspiracy afoot, but I have no idea who’s behind it. The question is, what does it accomplish? If a fake crash stops the world from looking for the plane, and from finding the island, I can still see both Ben and Widmore being behind it.
The “male bonding” scene between Bernard and Jin was a nice touch, though we always love seeing Bernard or Rose. The discussion of “karma,” and Bernard’s conclusion that Jin and he were “the good guys,” echoed countless previous distinctions and definitions of good and evil. Jen says it, too, foreshadowed Jin’s fate. Since it seems making the right decision and becoming a good person is the most reliable ticket to gonersville.
- The book Regina was reading was “The Survivors of the Chancellor,” by Jules Verne. The story is of an ill-fated voyage at sea, told in the form of a diary. At the end of the book (spoiler alert!), a character decides to avoid cannibalism by jumping overboard.
- Sun was watching “Exposé” when she went into labor. Love that.
- Kate, Kate, Kate. Now she’s playing camp counselor? “I’m going to have to tell Jack,” she scolds, then adds a little wink. Trying to earn brownie points? Shut up!
- When the doctor takes Sayid and Desmond to their new (blood stained) accommodations, we get a curious line. The doctor says it’s the quiet part of the boat, and Sayid observes, “But the boat isn’t moving.” Says doc, “If you say so…”
- Captain Gault: John Galt, of Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”? Or sediment?
- Locations: The interior of the toy store was Toys ‘N’ Joys store in Kaimuki on Waialae Ave. Photos! The exterior street scenes were N. Pauahi St. in Chinatown at Smith St., near Mei Sum (one of my favorite dim sum joints). More photos! The hospital for both flashback and flash forward was Kahuku Hospital. Not sure about the cemetary, though.
year of the dragon is either 2000 or 2012
Good episode but saw it coming the whole time.
I knew that Jin was a flashback.
Did you see that phone?
OMG. Thats all I can even say right now.
Anyone catch the date written on that stone at the end?
The stone said September 22, 2004.
Wow. This breaks my heart. And thinking back on the episode when Sun was calling out his name, while giving birth, just brings tears to my eyes. LOST…why must you toy with my emotions?! Like a lot of people, I called the Michael reveal about 6 episodes ago, but the way they delivered it was still shocking. Excellent episode!
So, it was 2000 probably for the flashback.
And Jin must be one of the two that “survived” the crashed but later died. Hence, the crash date on the tombstone.
If we can’t trust the captain, is anything he said trustworthy then? I thought, and still think that is was Widmore who had the plane wreckage faked. It is certainly more interesting to think that Ben was behind it though. I didn’t catch the name of the book that the girl (forgot her name) was “reading” upside down.
Great episode, and glad to see we have one more next week before the break. I thought this was the last one, and then we would pick up with the last episode they finished as the start of another short run in a few weeks.
I agree, Jono. Wow.
As soon as I started to realize what was going on, I was crying. It’s pretty crazy that a single TV episode made me cry as much as I just did. Yunjin Kim did an amazing job as usual! And nice to see Hurley there to support her … but also sad that Jack didn’t show up too. Not surprised that neither Kate nor Sayid were there, though.
Does this confirm that Aaron is part of the Oceanic 6?
Does everyone think that Jin is really dead or do you think he is still on the island?
Does anyone think that the Panda had any major significance?
Bernard and Rose always bring a very calming tone to the scenes that they are in… I loved Bernard’s talk to Jin, helping to realize that he wasn’t blameless in Sun’s choice(s).
The Michael reveal was a little anti-climatic but overall – the episode continues to help keep this season the best yet. I’m already dreading the break between next week’s episode and April 24th.
Echoing what Greg just said, are they changing the episode air schedule as the teaser said that 4X7 is next week? Or was that an error on the network’s part because they made that before the writers’ strike was over and the decision was made to stop after 6 for the hiatus? Does anyone have the scoop?
I think this episode will not get the props it really deserves. We find out several facts that pushes forward our storyline so far:
1) Sun is the final Oceanic 6
2) Jin dies…and yes I do believe Jin is dead. Not just left on the island. Sun’s reactions at the grave was heartbreaking…and not a reaction to someone that was left back on the island.
3) We learn who the captain is…and isn’t.
4) We finally reveal Michael as being on board the ship
5) We learn that Sun’s baby survives and is born
6) They get off the island in 3 weeks
7) We learn Widmore is behind the boat
8) We learn the wreckage was indeed staged
That’s just off the top of my head of answers to several questions we have had for a while. I don’t know necessarily if the writers faked anyone out on the Jin flashback…I think most of us saw that as it unfolded.
Also, how do you go from having to have a C-section to, oh wait, nevermind, baby is making its way out!?!?
Moriah, i don’t believe that Aaron is part of the Oceanic 6. as i understand, the list is as follows:
1. Jack
2. Kate
3. Hurley
4. Sayid
5. Jin
6. Sun
one thing that struck me while watching this episode is that Sun only has 3 weeks to live because she is on the island and pregnant. obviously from the flash forwards we know that Sun survives as well as the baby. does this mean that there are only up to 3 more weeks left on the island? (three island weeks, not three tv episodes) i believe the producers have said that there will be 6 or 7 seasons of the show, i can’t remember which. does this mean that part of the show will focus on what happens after they get off the island (real time, not flash forwards)? just a thought… what do you think Ryan and Jen?
The tombstone said jin died 9/22/2004, the day of the plane crash. As we know, the Oceanic 6 are caught up in a big coverup, so it would make sense that Sun has to pretend Jin died in the crash. I think he is still alive and on the island.He was not one of the oceanic 6.
If you listen to the Official LOST Podcast, with Damon & Carlton, they said that when they do get off the island…..that is NOT the end of the series. I will happen late this season, or in the next. Much more needs to happen after the group gets off.
There was a ton going on in this episode. Absolutely worth a second look.
Lastly, Ryan & Jen’s podcast is a must listen and always great, but if you are not also listening to the weekly (most of the time) Official LOST podcast, then you are really missing out on a lot of great info. Damon and Carlton reveal many answers that are had nowhere else.
Are these flash-aheads carved in stone? The statement re: “you cannot change the future” prevails in almost every sci-fi film but we’ve all seen films like “Back to the Future” and “Frequency” in which future events were shown as things that can be changed if you have the information exchanged from future to past. We have already seen the transfer of information between Daniel Faraday and Desmond Hume, so why wouldn’t it be conceivable that the doomsday futures (such as Jack hitting rock bottom) are still changeable and not a preview of next season?
DesignKingdom, Debbie’s correct that Jin’s tombstone says he died the day of the plane crash so I don’t think he can be part of the Oceanic 6. I believe the producers said we’d know who the Oceanic 6 were after this episode but maybe I’m remembering incorrectly? Maybe they said after next week’s episode?
Anyway, just because the date on Jin’s tombstone is a lie does not mean to me that he is definitely alive and on the island. Like Bigebee, I believe that he actually is dead.
And in response to part of Bigebee’s comment, I was completely fooled and thought that Jin’s off-island stuff was part of Sun’s flashforward until the moment he said he had only been married for two months. I assumed he had gone back to his old ways of putting his work for Sun’s father before their marriage. I’ve seen others say they knew it was a flashback but until that moment, I was convinced that it was all a flashforward and that Jin was one of the Oceanic 6.
Oh, and regarding C-sections, I agree this was pretty extreme from saying that they had to preform a C-section to suddenly the baby was crowning but there is a lot of real world evidence that suggests that many doctors are pushing for C-sections when they are not at all necessary. [/mini-soap-box]
324 BODIES & $3.2 MILLION…RING A BELL?
The Captain said that Charles Widmore staged the plane crash, and they used 324 bodies to do so….which is why they are after Benjamin Linus.
Miles happens to know that Ben has $3.2 Million…. not $3.3…. not $3.4….. How does Miles know that?
Well, at $1,000 per body, that’s $3,240,000… which rounds down to $3.2 million. Agree?
So…..now how and where did Ben get 324 bodies to give to Charles Widmore to fake a plane crash? The only time he’s had that many bodies was when he killed all the Dharma people, but that was a long time ago and those bodies were all rotted and piled into the pit that Locke saw after their visit to Jacob’s house. Any ideas?
Whoops…. I meant to put $10,000 per body…. my bad.
Rob,
I think you may be onto something. My husband thinks he remembers Ben making a reference to the purge killing 320 or so people…. interesting if that is the case!
My eyes are still puffy an hour later. I got really upset over the death of Jin. It’s amazing to think how far the character has come since the first episode — every new friend I introduce to Lost almost immediately mentions how much they can’t stand Jin…and I always say, “Just wait and see.” It’s going to be hard to watch scenes on the island with Jin in them now. I will always be worried that he could kick the bucket any minute. I considered for a moment, “What if he’s not really dead? What if he’s just still back on the island?”…but in my gut I think he really is dead. No woman would speak like that if she thought there was even a GLIMMER of hope that her husband was still alive. If you think someone might still be alive, you don’t dare to put up a tombstone or even court the thought that they are dead — you keep hoping and praying that they will walk in the door any minute.I really felt like Jin’s body was laying the ground beneath them by the way Sun addressed the tombstone…as if he was really there beneath the ground. I am very happy. though, to see that little Ji Yeon made it into the world. But kinda sad that Hurley was the only one to show up for the “funeral”. Well, I guess Kate isn’t able to leave Cali. for a long time, Sayid’s undercover and Jack is…having a screwdriver for breakfast? Ok, I’m going to go cry into my pillow now…
HURLEY, THE BABY, SUN, AND JIN:
So Hurley was the only one that showed up to see Sun? Alcoholic Jack uses all his free miles on Oceanic Air to fly to different countries and pray the planes crash. Kate and Aaron can’t leave the state. Sayid is working for Ben, so he probably doesn’t get any time off.
Jin is dead…. I think he’s going to die on the island and be counted as dying in the plane crash. Some big brawl has to break out where people get knocked off….Sun was the main person who had to make it back to save both her and her baby.
THE OCEANIC SIX:
I don’t think Aaron counts. I think we’re still at 5 revealed.
Imagine six people, flying in on a rescue helicopter…..Everyone walks down the stairway, waving to the world because they are the survivors…..the SIX survivors of Oceanic 815.
Jack, the leader walks down first, followed by his “lover” Kate who’s holding “their” baby, Aaron. “Kate” was pregnant on the flight and had the baby on the island. So I don’t think they count the little bundle of joy as one of the six. Hurley walks off, waving his hands and helping Sun, and they’re followed by a quiet-looking Sayid. Oceanic Airlines commercializes the entire event and names them the Oceanic Six for promotional reasons.
So who is Number 6? It could go so many ways, I won’t type it out. It could be someone from the plane, or it could be someone who wasn’t on the plane and assumes another identity so they can get home to see their loved ones (Juliet to see her sister or Desmond to see his sweetie.) It also could be whoever died and was in the coffin. Jack and Kate both knew the person.
THE BOAT & THE RETURN OF MICHAEL:
So Michael finally shows up…and he still doesn’t have Walt back. How many hoops is Ben gonna make him jump through to get him back. I liked this quiet Michael better. No more “WALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLT!”
Rob W.
Thanks for your comments. I think you’re on to something about the $10,000=324 bodies.
However, the captain did not say that Widmore staged the crash. The captain implies that “we want Benjamin Linus” because he has staged the crash with 324 bodies.
Nevertheless, we are also told to not trust the captain (probably from Ben via Michael). So who do you trust?
My prediction: Ben still has Walt.
I think Michael would be long gone with Walt if he had the chance. Yet again Ben finds out how to use people and exploits their weakness. As we know Michael has guilt around Walt and would do anything (including selling out his friends) to save Walt.
I’m sure Walt is back on the Island, which forces Michael to sabotage the boat and stay near the island
The big question: is Whitmore the bad guy or is Ben.
What was with the Panda? Who gets into a cab and drives off when there is a massive stuffed Panda in the back seat. This flash back seems really odd. Was there a point to it besides having a “neat” flash back and flash forward?
When Sun puts her ring on after her daughter is born, she takes it from a bag with the name 권 성 혜 [Gwon Song Hye], NOT 권 ì„ í˜œã€€ï¼»Gwon Sun Hye]. Was that an oversight, or could there be a reason for her to alter her name? It’s probably the former, but the writers seem to do their homework on the details, so that surprised me.
Unfortunately, I kinda figured out the flashback (Jin) and flashforward (Sun) but only because someone already had put that idea into my head before this episode aired.
Michael was an expected appearance so I was disappointed with that since I was hoping it would be someone else since it was so obvious it was Michael and I wanted to be surprised, but ah well. You gotta figure that if Michael is on the boat then so is Walt though and perhaps Walt is really the man on the boat rather than “Kevin Johnson.”
Don’t see Jin as being one of the Oceanic Six based on the date on his headstone. Which, of course, leads us to ponder whether Aaron is one of the Oceanic Six or not (if not, then who is the sixth?)
Overall a decent episode that I’ll have to watch again to see what I may have missed the first time around.
Theory about the whispers though – if the wormhole is the explanation for the time/space travel then I wonder if the whispers are just the voices from the other end of the wormhole when it opens up in a particular location. Thus you have a means of traveling to different places/times and then being able to jump back. Could explain how Harper appears after the whispers and disappears and there are no whispers.
Timelines (this is wild!)
“Through the Looking Glass”: Jack was distraught and in desperate need to return to the island. He meets up with Kate and it’s established that they are the first of the Oceanic-6.
“The Beginning of the End”: Hurley is caught for eluding police after he sees the ghost of Charlie in a mini mart. Jack comes see how he is doing in the loony bin, Jack is still sober! This establishes that Hurley is the 3rd of the Oceanic-6.
“The Economist”: Sayid is seen as being an assassin for hire, but is working for Ben (not one of the Oceanic-6). No reference to time and space in this flashforward.
“Eggtown”: Kate is on trial for the murder she committed, and Jack shows up to defend her once again. We learn that Aaron about 3 years old is also with her (btw, Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse said he doesn’t count as an Oceanic-6).
“Ji Yeon”: Jin looks like she’s at full trimester, and ready to give birth. She meets up with a sane looking Hurley…
We’ve got an established timeline from rescue to Jin’s birth: on D.O.C. Juliet tells Jin she is 1 month and 23 day pregnant since conception. “Ji Yeon” is only 9 days after D.O.C., which puts Jin at 2 months and 3 days pregnant. Juliet tells Jin that in three weeks she’ll start to feel symptoms of her baby killing her… which puts us at 3 months after conception.
In the episode, Jin looks 9 months pregnant… which puts this episode 7 months after they were rescued. If we work our way backwards through the flashforwards, then we can possibly establish that these events are being aired backwards.
For example, Ji Yeon happens at 7 months After Rescue (AR); Eggtown may happen between 2-3 years AR due to Aaron’s age; Sayid’s episode never establishes a date (so my theory still isn’t spoiled); The Beginning of the End occurs after Kate’s trial because Jack is still sane, and Hurley is no longer sane in comparison to Ji Yeon’s revelation–which we may suggest happens in about 3-4 years AR; and Through the Looking Glass which occurs after Jack’s confrontation with Hurley at around 4-5 years AR.
If this timeline is appearing backward to air date, then we may rest assured that the following flashforward will reveal the final Oceanic-6 member within 7 months of being rescued. If that’s true, then we can rest assured that that person is within THE COFFIN in Through the Looking Glass… and I’m willing to bet that’s Michael (who may have committed suicide because Ben never returns Walt to him).
One more post, and then I am going to bed. When Hurley and Sun go to the cemetery, the headstone clearly shows Jin’s birth and death dates to the right. On the left, it says “처” [Cho] at the top, which means “wife”, and lists the name ë°± ì„ í™” [Baek Sun Wha] with a birth date, but no date of death yet. How did they get that right, but not on the bag with the ring? Something to think about…or not.
PS: was I the only who suspected that Jin is still alive, but married to someone else in real time? i.e. Jin gets off the island, but not through the same means of rescue? I suppose I’m just that thick, but it seemed entirely goofy for one episode to include BOTH a flashforward AND a flashback. Screwing with time and space is one thing, but screwing my brain up for the sake of a ‘HAHA I’M SMARTER THAN YOU’ just isn’t fair anymore. Loved the episode, and I look forward to your analysis.
Now I have to get back to writing my paper on “Desire for Parental Involvement and Socialization with Peers in College Aged Students”… it’s due tomorrow, and I aint even done yet.
-Z
The ambassador in Jin’s flashback was from China and the panda is a well-known chinese icon. That’s why Jin HAD TO have a panda.
I was also completely fooled by the flash/back/forward switcheroo. Hey, Darlton…that borders on foul play, but since I loves you for Lost I gives you a pass (Again!)
It looks like it is coming down to “who do you believe?” for the Losties and the audience. Ben points his finger at Widmore and says, “It’s all his doing! He wants the Island!”, and Widmore’s people point at Ben and say, “Ben is evil and capable of anything! He staged the 815 wreckage! Kill! Kill!” Of course we know enough about Ben not to trust him and now we have been warned, presumably from Michael, BEN’S man on the boat not to trust the captain. Can we trust Michael if he is working for Ben? I think not.
Desmond seems to be back to his old self, but the crew is suffering from “cabin fever”. I think it’s the time shifting disease. And just like Minkowski, we just get a glimpse of Regina and she’s sleeping with the fishes! The captain is aware that there is a sabateour on the boat. It isn’t that big of a boat, so you would think he could figure it out fairly easily.
I am in the camp that believes that Aaron IS one of the Oceanic 6. I also thought it was telling that when Hurley shows up at Sun’s apartment and learns that no one else is coming that his response is “Good!” What the heck does that mean? Are the other Oceanic survivors a bad memory for him? Was there a blow up amongst them regarding the keeping of the secret? Maybe they just have too much drama for Hurley to deal with. And what is he doing out of Santa Rosa?
Intriguing thought that Ben may have been working WITH Widmore at one time to cover up the crash, and there may have been some kind of falling out that has pit them against one another. Nice catch on those numbers. I am not good at catching those minute details.
This is already too long. I’m out for now.
Oh, I almost forgot. From “The Other Woman” we were speculating about who the “her” was in Harper’s comment to Juliet that Ben likes Juliet because she looks just like “her”. Tonight in the enhanced edition of TOW, tha pop-up confirmed that the only other significant “her” in Ben’s life was Annie.
I’m later than usual adding my comments since I am in Hawaii this week for work and saw the episode 6 hours later than at home.
A good episode, not great, but good.
No question that Jin’s were a flashback. It was definitely filmed to keep us believing it was happening the same time as Sun’s flash forward but the fact that he said he has only been married 2 months gave it away.
I tend to believe Jin is alive and well on the island and that this is all part of the ruse that the Oceanic 6 have to tell about the others. Having him die on the date of the plane crash is a big clue to the lie.
That, of course raises other questions. Who then is the other missing member of the Oceanic 6? Why did Sun leave without Jin? Why was Hurley the only one that came to Korea?
I used to think that Sawyer got beat up a lot. This year the crown goes to Juliet. She’s getting slapped around by everyone. She’s much too pretty to have to endure that!
So is Widmore is behind the freighter and I trust that he is, then who did plant the other plane with the bodies? Does Ben and his mainland organization have that much power?
I suspect Paik fits somewhere in here too but on whose side? Is he with Widmore or with Ben?
It must have been a trip seeing downtown Honolulu (Chinatown) made up with all the Korean signs. I know exactly where those scenes were filmed.
Where is Walt if his father is on the freighter. Did they get back to the mainland and then he signed on as the maintenance man?
I’ve definitely concluded that the best episodes are the ones that have Locke and Ben in them. When neither are in an episode the episode tends to drag a bit. The exception is Desmond centric episodes which may be the best of all – perhaps because of all the Lost characters he has the one true love that is lost.
Liked the fishing scene with Jin and Bernard.
Not only was it “Exposé”: it was “Exposé” dubbed over in Korean! Had to turn the volume way up to catch that. Cute!
Great episode. Wow. Second best of the season so far.
A few things I observed:
1. On the Oceanic 6 if Aaron is not one of them (as someone said Damon and Carlton have affirmed? is that right?) and if tonight’s episode was supposed to reveal the last of the Oceanic 6 (as Damon and Carlton definitely did confirm) then it seems like the 6th could well be Ben. (They mentioned this possibility in one of their podcasts).
2. On the time issues, I’m not so sure about what was going on. Here are some possibilities:
A. Sun’s story was a flashforward; and Jin’s was a flashback. Most people seem to think this. If so, it was extremely well done, I think. And it was reminiscent, in a smaller way, of Through the Looking Glass by again pulling the rug out from under us, this time by splitting the difference between the existing time perspectives (not just flashback or flashforward but both at the same time).
Under this theory, the whole touch with Jin’s cell phone being the early clue (as Jack’s phone was the clue to his being a flash forward in Through the Looking Glass) was a great detail, as was the creeping music that plays right as Jin says “I’ve only been married 2 months” (also a not to THrough the Looking Glass’ final Kate -Jack reveal). It also would be quite a poignant way to build the theme of destiny and free will that was played out so touchingly with Charlie back into the show: now, once more, we know someone is going to die; but we have to see how this happens. Given Jin’s final on island declaration to Sun tonight (about how he’d protect her) perhaps we can assume he goes out in some act of free will affirming embrace of his purpose to protect her and this is how he will die.
B. Another possibility is that, indeed, Jin’s flash is also a future flash but that, somehow, he and Sun separated and she believes he is dead and he is re-married. This seems a stretch, I guess, as far as why this would have happ’d without them being fully aware of what had happ’d. But what if you consider that alongside of:
C. Suppose Jin and Sun both got off the island but that the two of them somehow passed back through different moments in space-time. With all the wormhole talk and the talk about how the coordinates might be relevant to determinign what moment in time one arrives at upon leaving the island, how do we know that Jin didn’t return , either in his consiousness, or his actual existence to some different time and set of life circumstances. What if he is in 2002 (or whenever) and Sun is in 2005? What if they are both in 2005 but different parts of it and Jin can’t remember his old life (for some time sickness type reason we saw Desmond suffering from temporarily when he couldn’t recognize Sayid)?
3. Finally, on Claire: so does this add weight to the fact that she is going to die? We still know that Desmond saw her getting on a helicoptor in his flash. That is why Charlie died for the cause. This detail will have to come back to mean something and the ‘course correction’ theme seems to mean that you can’t change the future. So Desmond’s flash will have to come true, even if it doesn’t lead to her rescue.
Forgot to add another possiblity on the time question:
…2D. Perhaps this was a flashback for Jin and flashforward for Sun. But does that mean Jin must be dead. Yes, Sun was clearly grieving. But it is possible that she was doing so either b/c she wrongly believes he is dead (and still really on the island; say, they get separated during the rescue and something happens to him right as she and the other 5 are leaving and she assumes he must be dead; like, say, he gets shot as he is trying to get on to the rescue vessel, which we can guess will be a quite turbulent moment given that it seems likely that Claire is going to be trying to leave but that something is going to detain her in what will probably be a hectic, dramatic set of events). Or, perhaps, Sun is so genuinely sad b/c Jin, for her, is as good as dead, stuck on that island that we know the Oceanic 6 (especially a mere 7 months from rescue) understand they can never go back to. Doesn’t it make sense that Sun would be so distraught, say, by the notion that Jin is on the island still, knowing that she can’t get back to him (ever, supposedly). It is this same dynamic that some time not so long after Sun is this distraught that, apparently, drives Hurley back to the hospital. And it is this same dynamic that eventually will catch up with Jack and push him to attempted suicide; and which pushes Sayid into the role of murder for ben. In fact, the only person of the Oceanic 6 we’ve seen in the future who hasn’t been portrayed as pushed to an utter extreme by the frustration of needing to get back to the island but thinking it impossible is Kate. And we know, eventually, she will come around to that position and will help Jack get back (or we can guess this).
I think the Jin being really dead idea still is the most straightforward. But it was curious that his gravestone had the *definitely* faked date of Sept 22, 2004 on it. Jin, in point of real fact (on the show) can’t die any earlier than January 2005. If he is really dead and Sun is so upset for that reason, why fake this detail on a tombstone? (Maybe one answer is b/c they have to remain consistent with the cover story about how only8 people survived the crash, I guess).
Interesting episode with the flash backs (I didn’t notice whether they had the flashback “sound” preceding them) and the flash forwards. I’m not convinced that Jin isn’t really the 6th. Since I didn’t see the actual date, I’m still under the dilusion that he made it off, died and is physically burried in the grave. Still don’t think it is Aaron as he was’t on the manifest.
I love the theory on the 3.2M for he bodies. It is great. I did finally watch Donny Darko this weekend and wonder though if there is a parallel universe where the plane really crashes with all the people off the island and it crashes on the island with the survivors? I don’t think we learned a lot in this episode but it was very emotional.
Very intense episode, especially at the end.
How is it that Michael gets to take a boat off the island when even the Others need a sub? The helicopter barely made it back to the boat. Minkowski went crazy taking a tender toward the island, but Michael gets off cleanly? And, as someone else pointed out, he sure didn’t have much time to get a job on that freighter.
And when did Ben get the time to get a video of Widmore? He taped over the Red Sox tape with it…so that means it was taken after Jack was prisoner.
Oh well, its best to suspend disbelief and enjoy the show!
Love the comments above. I feel like (pardon the colorful language) I got kicked in the gonads with Jin being dead.
However, if he really died 9/22/04, how do they explain the baby being born when she was? Sun would have had to have (lotta “have”s) gotten pregnant with his baby off-island but given birth more than nine months later. I realize it could be a metaphor but if they truly are the international sensation they are being made out to be, wouldn’t this attract some attention?
Nice job on the flash-back/forward. Something about it seemed a little funny but I had no real suspicion until Jin said he’d only been married 2 months.
I find the “who staged the crash” debate interesting. It echos one of my earlier favorite themes. I’ve seen a lot of speculation above as to who is the “bad guy,” Widmore or Ben. The catch is that they both think the other one is a “bad guy,” much like the Losties think the Others are “the Others” and “the bad guys” and the Others probably think the Losites are “the others” and certainly make them out to be “the bad guys.” It’s all a matter of perspective. I think it’s very feasable though that multibillionaire Charles Widmore would have the resources to fake a plane crash if he can spend $755,000 on a ship’s log.
Why doesn’t anyone think Jin died after being saved from the island? He was buried off of the island. They would not have taken his dead body with them and I don’t think they would do empty graves. Sun and Jin are both definitely part of the Oceanic 6!
THE OCEANIC SIX & COFFIN-PERSON:
Z – I liked your comments…but I think Jin died on the island. Characters are going to have to die and I think that he’s one.
Also, someoone stated that Cuse and Lindelwhoever said that Aaron is an Oceanic Six. Is that true? I heard them state that Kate was an Oceanic Six, but I didn’t hear Aaron…. Can anyone confirm? If they did say Aaron was, then I have Eggtown on my face.
Also, I take back my comment that coffin-person could be an Oceanic Six. If they were an Oceanic Six, I think the whole world would have showed up for their funeral. Coffin-person could be Ben (could have occurred AFTER the Ben/Sayid flash-forward), Michael (my original thought months ago) or anyone else the Lostie Creators want to throw in there. Kate did say “his” funeral when they talked? Can I assume it’s Coffin-Boy or Coffin-Man?
The ship is not under the influence of the Island. Crew madness is being caused by the canned lima beans.
Here’s a list of the people I don’t trust: Widmore, Ben, the Captain, the Writers, Locke, Juliet, Michael, Miles, Charlotte, Jacob… or, maybe it would be easier to list the only people I DO trust: Rose and Bernard.
I want to believe that Sun and Hurley visited a (fake) memorial to Jin. I want to believe Jin’s not dead and certainly isn’t buried there. The ground in front of the marker didn’t look disturbed. I think we’re being led down the path on this one. But it will turn out good. It’s obvious that Sun is not convinced that Jin is the daddy of Ji Yeon.
If I were the director of last week’s “The Other Woman” I would have yelled, “and…CUT! Mat and Elizabeth, that wasn’t a convincing kiss. Let’s try again, rolling, action… and CUT! No, OK, hum-m, let’s do this — can we have you two just shake hands.”
LET’S NOT FORGET CHARLIE AND CONSTANTS….SHALL WE?
Not to get off-topic, but last night’s episode made me think about who’s in the flash-forwards etc.
Desmond’s conciousness traveled back to 1996 (I think), and he anchored himself into 1996 as opposed to being in 2004 on the freighter. When he came back to 2004, which he wasn’t controlling, he had lost all attachments to 2004. He didn’t know where he was, who Sayid was, or why he was on the helicopter. Desmond was also exposed to the high level of electromagnetic energy when he turned the key in hatch, along with Locke, Charlie, and Ekko.
If Desmond was having these conciousness-travels, couldn’t Charlie and Locke also be having the same things and not know what they are? Desmond was fortunate to have Sayid with him and a direct connection to the Lostie Marty McFly himself (Daniel Faraday).
When Charlie was underwater, he could have zapped to the flash-forward and anchored himself there, using Hurley as his Constant. Hurley was his best buddy on the island.
Locke could also be having the same type of conciousness travels (notice I’m not saying time travels…..b/c Cuse and Lindelwhatever said there wasn’t gonna be any time travel), and he just doesn’t know or understand it yet.
So, is Charlie alive and kicking in flash-forward time? I think so. Thoughts?
I’m about to respond to a bunch of specific points people made. I agree with a lot of the things all of these individuals said but other than one point, I’m only commenting with questions or disagreements.
Z – btw, Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse said he doesn’t count as an Oceanic-6
When did they say that? I heard them talking about Aaron as a possible Oceanic 6 on their podcast. They were kinda playing devil’s advocate with each other, one saying why he could be and one saying why he might not be but they didn’t say one way or another. That said, I do think that they told us we would know all 6 of the Oceanic 6 by the end of this episode. I think Aaron is the most likely option from that … more likely to me than Ben, Michael, Jin or anyone else.
Connie from Alaska – And what is he doing out of Santa Rosa?
If this flashforward is following the same pattern as the others, then this flashforward occurred before Hurley went to the mental hospital. Kate’s appeared to have come before Hurley’s and Jack’s and Hurley’s almost definitely came before Jack’s flashforward. The fact that Hurley shows up says to me that, on the timeline, this is the earliest flashforward we have seen. Of course, it’s hard to tell when Sayid’s flashforward takes place but I’m thinking it probably does fit right between Kate’s and Hurley’s.
Tonight in the enhanced edition of TOW, tha pop-up confirmed that the only other significant “her†in Ben’s life was Annie. I know we got an interesting reveal about Daniel’s caretaker but I’m not sure I take the “pop-ups” as canon. To me, it’s more of a promo tool and we know the promo department gets it wrong sometimes. I think that Ben’s mother is still a possibility.
John Fischer – I used to think that Sawyer got beat up a lot. This year the crown goes to Juliet. She’s getting slapped around by everyone. She’s much too pretty to have to endure that! hahaha, and I think Sawyer is far too pretty to take the beatings he has endured :p
Bob – Why doesn’t anyone think Jin died after being saved from the island? Jin’s tombstone says September 22, 2004, which is the same date that the plane crashed. Obviously, this is a lie but it is unlikely that they’d be able to pull off that lie if Jin came off the island alive and then died after making it off the island as one of the Oceanic 6.
Bill – It’s obvious that Sun is not convinced that Jin is the daddy of Ji Yeon.
I disagree. I think Sun does believe Jin is the father. I also don’t think there is anything on Lost that is obvious. The comments here show that there are many ways to interpret something.
Dave – I completely agree with your comments about perspective and good versus evil. That’s one of my favorite themes too.
There have also been some people who say that the flashback and flashforward in the same episode is unfair. I think the producers have set up different story telling techniques and that if they can go from flashbacks to flashforwards to different events in time occurring simultaneously, then it is also within reason to have a flashback and flashforward within the same episode.
Rob W from Aurora, IL – Interesting thoughts on time and constants. I think what you have proposed is possible but it’s too early for me to make anymore definite comment than that.
It seems weird to me that Sun and Hurley would keep up a pretense with no one else there. Yes, the date on Jin’s tombstone is the crash date, to go along with the original conspiracy. I think Jin’s dead on island, not one of the 6. Her reaction seemed very genuine, like I said, with no one but Hurley to witness. Although..Hurley didn’t seem particularly upset..
Also, love the theory about the money and the backwards time thing. We do seem to be getting closer to the breaks (in time/mental health, etc)
Another aside-What the #&*^%# is up with all the commercials?!?! Omg, there’s like 6 min of dialog between another 6 min of adverts. It’s very frustrating-I think I’m timing the next episode to see if it actually comes in closer to 30 min! Bummer, cause I just want MORE!!
BOOKS FOUND ON THE PLANE WRECKAGE:
Along with the “black box” that was part of the Oceanic 815 fake wreckage findings, a set of books were also found that appear to be we written by some of the passengers. It can’t be confirmed at this time, but the books include:
HOW TO LOOK LIKE A WOOKIE DRESSED IN A SUIT, written by Hurley
HOW TO TELL CONVINCING LIES, written by Daniel Faraday
HOW TO BUST SOMEONE IN A LIE, NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE PEOPLE SPEAK, written by Juliet
HOW TO AVOID DOING ANYTHING IMPORTANT FOR THREE EPISODES WHEN THE WHOLE STORY USED TO REVOLVE AROUND YOU, written by Jack
HOW TO NOT REPETITIVELY YELL YOUR SON’S NAME WHEN HE IS KIDNAPPED, written by Michael
HOW TO HAVE A BIG HOUSE, ONLY ONE FRIEND AND A BE RESPONSIBLE FOR A BABY, written by Kate and Sun
I’M DEAD!! I’M DEAD ALREADY!!!, written by Jin
HOW TO COMMIT SUICIDE WITH AN UPSIDE-DOWN BOOK, A BUNCH OF CHAINS, AND A FREIGHTER, by anonymous
Aloha!
Hey Ryan and Jen.
I’m Jeremias (or Jeremiah) from Denmark.
I just started listening to your podcast this season, and I absolutely love it. It makes watching LOST that much greater, so thanks a lot.
It actually inspired me to watch LOST from the very beginning again, so I could get your and the other listeners input about the episodes. Needless to say I was able to catch a lot more things this time around. Also I was obviously sad when you stopped the transmission prematurely the first time around. I’ve tried some of the other podcasts out there, but nothing seams to be nearly as good. Can someone recommend a LOST podcast that aired in season 2 and 3 also that I could maybe check out. I haven’t been able to find one I like so far. 🙁
I’m still a little blown away by this episode. It was very strong. Not nearly as powerful as when boone died, but it wasn’t that far off. I had an inkling that Jin was in a flashback. First of all the phone was old. Second of all you don’t take time to purchase a stupid teddy bear (some more toys there, seams to be a lot of them still) when your wife had what looked like complications in the beginning. At that time he couldn’t have known how it was going with the baby.
I don’t really have any thoughts on what this episode means in the big picture, there is simply too much to keep an eye on.
Thanks again!
I think that Jin is alive based on the date enscribed on the tombstone. He obviously does not make it off of the island in the flash forward, but that does not mean that he is dead. I think that the remaining members of flight 815 are believed to be stuck on the island forever, and the oceanic 6 obviously are unable to go back to the island at this time. Sun could simply be sad because she believes that she is never going to see Jin again. I’m not writting Jin off as dead yet, since nothing is as it seems in the world of Lost. This season keeps getting better and better.
Z- I also thought that Jin faked his death and is still alive. It seems that when he was leaving the hospital and he said, “the baby wasn’t his”- it seemed that he didn’t believe Sun, and he somehow faked his death, got off the island and started a new life..but I guess I am wrong!
i am one of the silly people who didn’t understand until the end. ah well.
i wanted to point out that i found this on wikipedia:
“While the polar bear is mostly carnivorous and the giant panda feeds almost entirely on bamboo, the remaining six species are omnivorous, with largely varied diets including both plants and animals.”
we already had a few run-ins with polar bears on this show and it is interesting to now see its “polar” opposite the panda bear, it goes well with this them of good vs. evil and dark vs. light.
anyway, OK episode. i don’t know what i want to happen next. i guess i am mostly just waiting for the showdown between “freighteries” and the island people at this point.
Combo FB/FF was a cheap trick by the writers because they couldn’t think of an intelligent mechanism to achieve the same effect. I understand there are time pressures involved in writing a TV series but they should have just settled for something less dramatic, rather than resort to terrible writing.
Speaking of terrible writing, the way Jin and Sun dealt with the reveal that Sun cheated was awful and incredibly forced as was the pointless scene with Jin and Bernard fishing.
I’m not usually so critical of the writing on this show but I found this episode slap you in the face bad.