It may also be that Desmond for some reason thinks that by saving Charlie he will break a loop of some kind. (Think “Groundhog Day.”) But that each time he saves Charlie, nothing changes. So maybe he just keeps searching for the “right thing” to do. Desmond seems to think there’s a loop, but that doesn’t mean there is.

I agree with the folks above that it would be just too convenient of an explanation and an “easy way out.”

One final thought. There is a scientific principle called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It states that by measuring a particle you affect the particle, so you can never truly measure how it would have been had it not been affected. It’s similar to the pop culture notion of the “butterfly effect.” Des and Charlie may be enacting something like this… it doesn’t mean it’s a time loop, it just means that they attribute greater meaning to even their trivial actions than there might truly be. And Des’s flashback seems to hint that there is NO “butterfly effect” — no matter what you do, you will hit the same outcome. It may be more a lesson in futility than a time loop. (Don’t forget, once Des learned that he brought down the plane — which was just before he turned the key in the season 2 finale — was when he developed his “premonitions.” He seems to place a lot of weight on everything having a reason and leading to an outcome. He may be a bit of a nutter regarding this.)

If I may predict, it too is a set-up by Ben he is playing them off each other to see which Alpha female prevails.
It also appears that our man Hurly is taking more of a leadership tact, Refreshing and nice to see him fill the Vacuum
left by Locke,Jack, Sayid, and Kate…It would be nice to see Rose Emerge as Island Earth-Mother -Ultra -AlphaMommaFemale.
Sawyer is holding something back,either that of he is the most honest player on the Island, as he “yam what he Yam”

One thing for sure, Lost is never predictable.. that’s why I’m completely hooked.

I think that CC and DL have hinted a few times that ‘time’ on the island is not the same as time in ‘the rest of the world’. FWIW. Personally, I’m guessing the time issue is just one of many of the secrets/treasures/gifts of this special island our Losties have found themselves on.

But also, I was “overthinking” trying to come up with “evidence” to demonstrate that there cannot be a time LoOp, and I came up with the very existence of Alex and her growing up on the island being raised by The Others. Time LoOp, in Tawl’s terms, means a cicling, a pernnial repetition of the same events. If there was a LoOp, how come time has actually passed for Alex and she has been able to grow? We would have to consider the “length” of the LoOp, then and decide which is the starting point and how far back or ahead does it extend to.

Ben as the perfect manipulator seems to possess future foreseeing abilities; but I also want to believe that he can anticipate other people’s reactions given the fact that he manipulates them, he knows them very well deep inside (how and why he knows them is a big mystery), and he uses that knowledge to manipulate them and make them believe they are doing things because it was their idea (He said it himself in Exposé, and Alex said it in The Man From Tallahasee). He is a great con artist, the ultimate villain.

Sawyer might have “noticed” Nikki before (he never really flirted with Shannon or anyone other than Kate and Ana Lucia), but notice the entire context of when he says “who are you?” / “who the hell are you?” and you’ll understand he is being sarcastic, sort of meaning “do I know you? Why are you talking to me?”, with the kind of high school attitude we all experienced as teenagers. He is just being mean and rude to her, at the same time that his words represent our voice jokingly asking “where were you the last two seasons of the show”.

Desmond is the only one that has “flashes” of the future, but we still do not know why or how this is happening. These flashes are NOT an alternate reality, a parallel universe, a different dimension or a time LoOp; they are just “flashes”; think of deja-vu in terms of pre-knowledge of the future, just like the one the Precogs from the movie Minority Report have. It is just a flash from the future.

This Time LoOp discussion is really interesting and enjoyable. But I agree with NorCal Matt when he says we should just enjoy the ride and see where it takes us at its own pace. I would not be too concerned with the time LoOp challenge. I also think there are other interesting issues (and perhaps more relevant to the big island mysteries) such as Smokie (and/or The Magic Box), Christian’s dead body, Penny’s search team, and what happened to Michael and Walt. It is my hope that the remaining of the season will explore these lose ends.

If the Lost producers/writers ever resorted to Time loop or time distortion or time travel or any thing related then all of their hard work over the past 3 or 4 years would immediately be discredited by the majority of Lost fans world-wide.

The sooner everyone accepts minor timeline inconsistencies (no one’s perfect, this isn’t real life) and enjoys Lost for what it is — the smartest, most interactive show ever created — the more we will continue to be in island bliss.

Can’t wait for tomorrow night!!!

Here are a couple of specific reasons why I think there is “pre-knowledge of the future” on at the Island, which quite possibly means a Time Loop.

Locke knew where the trap-door in the Flame Station was (under the carpet). How did he know that, and why was that the first place he looked? Doesn’t it seem as if Locke had been there before?

Ben risked his life to walk into the Losties camp (he was shot in the back with an arrow) with confidence, almost as if he knew what would happen and how to resolve any dangerous situation. Why would Ben walk into a dangerous spot unless he “knew” was that possibilities were? Why would Ben lie about who he was, yet point the Losties to where the balloon and the bodies were (of the real Henry Gale) and allow the Losties to discover his lie? Ben has a plan, but this plan requires a lot of knowledge about the future and what everyone else is going to do, otherwise all you could say is that Ben is completely reckless and an incredible risk-taker as a leader (I vote for “future-knowledge”).

Also, Charlie has been “saved” by Desmond at least 3 times, maybe more (the lightening strike, almost drowning saving Claire, and falling into the ocean trying to capture a bird for Claire).

Remember when Desmond told Charlie that he doesn’t think he can keep saving Charlies life again and again? Why would he say that, unless the Time Loop has repeated at least 3 times, maybe more.

Also.. wasn’t it odd that Sawyer would say multiple times to Nikki.. “who are you?” Don’t you think that Sawyer (and any other man) would notice Nikki in the short-shorts and halter-top? Unless.. sometimes she’s in the current time-loop and sometimes she’s not.

A Time Loop doesn’t mean time travel (which would mean jumping to new places in time). The Time Loop could would mean that time is circling, and just maybe the Island is a center of all reality and time, the place to jump in and out of the loop.

What do you think, Kopytko, Fernando.. anyone?

I totally agree with Kopytko’s idea. If there ever was a time LoOp, it was broken the moment “Desmondo” saved Charlie.

And I see that Kopytko’s refutation of the Time LoOp Theories deals more with logic and semantics than with anything else. I have interpreted other people’s postings about the time loOp as theories about Time Travel. And that is a different theory, which, BTW really disappoints me for two reasons: One, I expect the whole truth about Lost to be something much more interesting and fascinating. Second, I still want to believe what the producers told us back in season one: “there is no Time Travel involved in this show”. If it happens that NOW there is some sort of time travel, I would really like for them (the producers) to come up and explain how it is happening, and why they changed their minds.

Peace.

Desmond’s “Flashbacks” episode are the start of my proof that the producers/writers are indeed messing around with Time. And if this is true, that would explain a lot of inconsistencies on the Island, and the advanced knowledge of Locke (gettnig explosives from the Flame) and Ben (knownig how everyone is going to react).. in addition to Desmond.

Sure, there could be another explaination that does not involve Time Distortion, but (for me) everything is pointing in that direction.

(To anyone out there), what would keep you from believing that a Time-Loop is involved in some way on the Island? Anyone?

So seriously, can anyone point me away from

I didn’t love the episode, but I thought it was fun and kinda kooky. I give credit to the writers and producers for realizing that the Nikki and Paolo characters were just not going to work — you can clearly add new characters (see the Tailies and Desmond and all the Others), but you can’t just make Important New Survivors(tm) without upsetting fans — and choosing to correct their mis-step rather than subjecting us all to a failed experiment. Let’s also give them credit for playing off our attitudes in characters like Sawyer (”who the hell is Nikki?”) and the meta-theater of a gimmicky, cheesy episode that just so happens to kick off with a character on a gimmicky, cheesy show (reminded me of “V.I.P.”) involved in a gimmicky, cheesy story. A nice wink, wink, nudge, nudge to the fans. And it was well done and did make me appreciate both the characters of Nikki and Paolo and the actors who played them a bit more.

I was NOT a fan of the callbacks, which looked as though they had been digitally edited. I WAS a big fan of the callbacks, however, with the nods to the obsessive fans (including pretty much anyone who would spend time reading this site) such as Boone looking for the pen.

Just hard to argue with addition by subtraction.

Am still having a hard time believing that Niki and Paulo were “there the whole time” and lately have been thinking more and more about the theories I’ve heard regarding implanted memories. Could the flashbacks from today be new memories being freshly implanted?

Paulo would hide diamonds in the water tank of a working toilet on the Island

Nikki would knowningly eat out of a basket of poisoned food

Nikki could paralyze Paulo by throwing a single poisonous spider at him

Nikki would be attacked by other poisonous spiders, which quickly leave when Sawyer, Hurley and the gang arrive

Nikki would be smart enough to know that a high school science teacher could draw projection maps of where things would land when falling out of a broken airplane

The science teacher found enough empty jars to keep his insects in

There were plenty of shovels to go around for everyone

Ben (or someone) would leave a walkie-talkie behind

Paulo would watch a stranger (Ben) turn on a TV set to watch Jack, and not act surprised nor mention it to anyone

What I can’t believe is this..
Sawyer would toss $8 million of diamonds into a shallow grave and walk away (so I suspect he will be back)

Second Observation.. if what we are seeing are variations of Time-Loops, this would easily explain time continuity errors (such as.. was the plane on the hatch or in the tree?). This would also explain why Sawyer is confused about not remembering Nikki (who are YOU?). In some loops, she’s there.. in others.. not there.

Third Observation.. There’s “something” about Vincent.. he was awfully smart to pull the sheet off of the semi-dead bodies. I think that Vincent is worth watching VERY carefully in future episodes.

Fourth Observation.. Locke is right.. nothing stays buried very long by the beach. I expect hot Nikki to be back, short shorts, halter top, and all!(thank you in advance, Lost Producers)

Fifth Observation.. the Island has electricity, lights, modern toilets, a sewer system, water pressure, refridgerators, fresh food, video cameras, telecommunication, a running VW bus.. almost seems as if the Island isn’t as remote as we are being led to believe. I’m starting to think “Truman Show” in addition to “Groundhog Day”

Last Observation.. watching this episode was a PURE guilty pleasure (proably like watching Expose)… i felt bad for enjoying something so much that others would call cheesy.. yet, I enjoyed the creativity, cleverness, and the fun that went into putting this diversion episode together. Kudos to the Lost product staff for being brave enough to constantly take creative risks! I’m hooked more than ever.

Mike–Ben was wearing an orange polo and khakis when he was caught by Rousseau…

oh well great episode!

Anyway, that’s just one crazy explanation. I doubt that CC and DL would have made that much of a timeline error. I can’t wait to see what the explanation is for this one. I’m with Ryan - this is going to go down as a ‘classic’ episode; one of the quirky ones that gives a break to the serious part of the storytelling.

PS: Ryan, in your last summary paragraph before the Notes & Notions portion, did you mean ‘Tom’ instead of ‘Ethan’? Or am I missing something here (admittedely I can’t think nearly as hard about the intircacies of the plot as most here - it makes my head hurt!

Does this mean that in Season 4 we’ll learn that Jacob “the great man” who we know is the evil head of the Others is actually one of the losties we’ve known for years. Could one of our intrepid band of heroes actually be Jacob?

If so who?

Looking forward to a little “cat fight” action next week with Kate and Juliette. Meow!

–J

By the way…spiders sometimes symbolizes the soul..or in asia the spider as a soul freed from the body….spider has been also symbolized as the counsellor of the spreme diety…or also has a role of a seer. (this is all in the peguin dictionary of symbols which is handy to look up key motifs).

Diamonds…Plato discribes the world axis as being made of diamond. symbolizes the center. It can also be the symbol of universal sovereignty or incorruptibily and aboslute truth. (also from the same book).

There are a lot of stuff buried on the island besides those who died…the diamonds, the virgin mary statues…..I don’t know.

I also loved it when sawyer said “Who the hell is nikki?”
And nikki saying “ashes are evidence…let’s not poison ourselves”
I also like the newspaper section with the obituary called “This Life”
Also after that shoe scene….of how did that shoe get stuck…what was sawyer staring at when he answered hurley “nothing”
Why did nikki help Paolo “open the hatch” and then say no don’t go down?
I also found it cool that the tv monitor where ben watches jack is the number 5. It also looked like the number 28 when paolo turned on the walkie talkie.
Vincent tried to tell hugo and sawyer they are still ok…purposely uncovering them….and where did vincent come from again…and go?
Shouldn’t paolo have woken up first?
And again….buried alive thing just creeped me out…Again…love watching details.

If you are right, that means there is another continuity error. Why? Because when Nikki filmed that Exposé episode (for the finale of season 4 of the show) Locke must have already been in the wheelchair. Remember he was, after all, in the wheelchair for four years!

I do think he was watching Exposé because of the Cobra comment we hear coming out of the TV, but it must have been the first season.

Jen, nobody else could have used better words to say what you did.

Peace.

So the Others actually moved the plane after Paulo exited the Pearl the first time. Which explains away the dumb luck required for the plane to have fallen directly on top of the hatch.

I don’t think Sun/Sawyer/Charlie plot line is over with. I think there will be more things to come for Charlie & Sawyer than just a slap in the face.

Having said that:

I wish they’d have either attempted to make Nikki and Paolo work or not have introduced them at all. I was frustrated when they killed off Libby because we knew she had to have an interesting story and they chose not to explore it. I kind of wish they’d never done the Tailies story arc because all but one of them is dead now and it feels like a whole lot of time and energy wasted.

The whole last scene was very “Kill Bill 2″. I don’t know what to think of that. I keep hoping Tarantino will direct an episode.

Frank: I don’t think we’re done with Sun/Charlie/Sawyer. Jin will find out. It may not happen this season, but that’s not over by a long shot. I’ll bet money on it.

You’ve said everything that I’m feeling. I hadn’t heard that they killed off N&P because of fan reaction; you’re right, that’s troubling if it’s true, and it also means that there was no real plan for these characters. Maybe if they hadn’t been introduced so clumsily, the fans would have taken to them more. I’m also bothered a bit by the Sun/Charlie/Sawyer scenes. While I thought that the scenes were well-done, it felt like that was the end of that plotline. I mean, Sawyer set up this con, roped in Charlie to help, setting up what seemed at the time to be a new power structure on the island, and a new direction for Charlie. And that … didn’t happen. Things were back to normal within a few weeks. It always felt to me like that was a plot thread that they didn’t know what to do with, so it just kind of disappeared … and last night was the final wrapup — “Let’s close down this pointless plot thread while we’re closing the pointless N&P plot thread”. And while we’re at it, are they implying too that the Walt being special thread is now closed too … that he was really never wanted by The Others, that he really wasn’t special? I know that I’m really reading a lot into it, but, still … it just bothers me.

I also caught the continuity error when Paolo was in the Pearl Station and Juliet and Ben enter to reveal their plan to get Jack to do surgery. They show the TV monitor with Jack and the other Losties already in the Swan station. But we know that they didn’t get into the hatch until AFTER the plane had already falled on top of the Pearl Station’s entrance. So are we to believe that Paolo was able to move the plane, go into the Pearl Station and hide the diamonds, come back up and then move the plane back over the entrance?

Another BIG thing that bothered me about this scene was the way the dialouge seemed to elude that the Others want/need to kidnap Walt had nothing to do with him being special. That is was simply their way of getting Michael to lead Jack/Kate/Sawyer to them. After all of Season 1 spent building Walt up to be special and the many references the Others made of Walt’s importance to just be explained way was disturbing.

I love this show and to see the writers/producers slipping frustrates me. And now that in the latest podcast Lindoff and Cuse admit to killing Nikki and Paolo off due to viewers dissatisfaction with them upsets me even more. Why bother giving them an episode to “close the loop” so to speak? We hadn’t invested any time getting to know them, but then they decide to finally give us an episode to show their importance, get us all interested in the characters, and kill them. Much like Shannon and Libby. Just as their characters were getting “juicy,” BAM, dead.

One the plus side it was nice to see Charlie finally admit to Sun what he did. She reaction was a little off. I’m sorry but if someone I trusted and was friends with revealed that they put a bag over my head, dragged me across the jungle and scared the be-jesus out of me, I’d be a tab bit more angry. Heck, even Sawyer got off easy. Like others have said though, I think Charlie may be coming to the end of his stay on the island. Although I think a bigger twist would be Claire dying because she is always with him. It would definitely open up the story to explore what will happen to Aaron now that she isn’t raising him. Could that play into the Ben=Aaron theory out there?

I know that my criticism may be premature. I’m not gonna stop watching the show. Like I said, I love it, so to all of you who will stay, just stop watching, please don’t. It’s just upsetting to see a once riviting show’s quality suffer.

I have not seen every episode of Lost, I admit, so I could have that wrong.

I kind of hope Jack beats him up at some point in the future…I mean, a few of those details could have really saved everyone some trouble.

Like I said, the screen showed Jack sitting in a chair in The Swan, so that scene had to take place after the plane fell…

Look a little deeper and you’ll see the continuity problem. How did Paolo get back into the Pearl? By that point, the plane had fallen, since the camera showed Jack in the Swan, so Paolo couln’t have gotten into the hatch. Unless it was after Locke and Eko moved the plane in ‘?’ … which of course was after Ben had been captured, so he couldn’t have been there when Paolo was. Or maybe it was after Ben escaped … except by that point Ms. Klugh had already put Ben’s plan into action to use Michael to attract Kate, Jack, and Sawyer, so the plan certainly shouldn’t have been a surprise to Juliet. That’s the continuity problem I was talking about.

And I’ve been watching the show since day 1, and have been really enjoying the current ‘2nd pod’ of episodes. What makes the show great is that it’s well-written, mysterious, has great characters, and is incredibly well thought-out. When I see an episode that, imo, is poorly written, and, as evidenced by the continuity mistake, was obviously poorly planned, I think that I have the right to say that I don’t like it. I hold Lost to high standards, and it usually lives up to them; it’s not a show that I want to just sit there watching with glazed eyes not thinking about what I’m seeing. The last thing that I want to see is for Lost to turn into The X-Files, a once-great show that faded into mediocrity.

Finally, as I mentioned in earlier posts, I have no problem with filler episodes that are more character than mystery episodes (like the VW episode, one of my favorites) … I just have a problem when they’re poorly done, just like I would if a mystery episode was poorly done.

ps - nikki in red bikini. yum.

frank, your problem with the timeline is off. They weren’t in there after Locke and Eko moved the plane because the plane hadn’t fallen yet because Boone hadn’t climbed up it. If you have problems with the episode, that’s fine, but at least give the writers credit for not getting it so fundamentally wrong.

I think the quip about 108 spiders and 4 w/ dharma logos may have been a joke to bait the nitpickers….

And is that Dr. Christian Shephard in the background?
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1269-826.html (I know it is not a good picture, but actually looks clearer on the TV screen).

A question for “Hey Bulldog”, Where did you see or hear about 108 spiders? I still have not found them.

Second of all… I love LOST and the more everybody nitpicks and complains about it I become more and more amused. Just shut up and watch the show, or …don’t. The term “jump the shark” is lame and over-played. Take 1 hour of your wednesday, watch the show you love and hope it makes it to 5 seasons. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it seems like the “cool” thing these days is to bash LOST. I feel sorry for people that think they are entitled to all the answers NOW. They will suffer greatly. The writers and producers and people like me want the story to last as long as it takes to tell. They are not going to rush it just because a few nitpickers are not pleased. So sit back and enjoy!

P.S. I need to know… What the hell is up with “Razzle Dazzle”??? Is Corvette somekind of Rainbow Brite Pole Dancing Superhero?
Gotta Love it!

Also, it felt to me like the Tailies are coming together, that their relationship as a group is maturing and growing more peaceable. I too was glad Sun slapped Sawyer– but also that she wasn’t going to tell Jin. And that Sawyer tried in his own clumsy/unrealized way to apologize by giving Sun the diamonds.

And while I was somewhat annoyed by the sudden dominance of two characters that seemed gratuitious in the past, I have a feeling it’s all gonna fit together (and they’ll make it fit together!). I agree with Bill that maybe the two dead ducks will resurrect but use it to their advantage… until the island finds them out.

Great stuff!

First, it was a plot directly taken from an “Alfred Hitchcock Presents” episode that I saw coming from the first 2 minutes. Second, what a waste to bring back Boone and Shannon for this lame story (good use of Artz though).

Also, what was the point of Ben dragging Juliet all the way across the island just to go into the pearl station to watch Jack on a monitor for 5 seconds? Seemed really forced and out of character. (I suspect that radio Paulo found will come in handy in future episodes.)

Did anyone else get their HD picture in the normal TV aspect ratio, or was it just a mistake of my cable company? I suspect with the narrower aspect ratio it was easier to shoot the crash scene, but it still bugged me.

I’m getting sick of them dragging out the plot. It is as if they are afraid once we discover what is going on we will stop watching the show. Is the secret of the island so lame that stories can’t be told in that universe once it is revealed? It is starting to feel like they have a 3 year plot they need to stretch out to 5 years and this won’t be our last filler episode.